I have a question

[darmok167]

I am a little bit old school. But I consider myself open minded.

I believe there are two genders. I am not trying to start a war by saying that. I am trying to explain my position.

My position is that while I believe there are two genders, I also believe that there are a lot of assholes that like to discriminate against people for having doubts about what their gender may be.

Personally, I won't believe that a female is a male or a male is a female. That's on me. I understand that.

What I believe is that it shouldn't matter. Because I try to be a decent human being. It shouldn't matter. It's common decency.

If anyone asks me to call themselves he or she I will. If anyone asks me to call them they or them, I will. If anyone asks me to call them any other things, I will because I believe that is just being respectful. I would never try to intentionally disrespect anyone for any reason. That's wrong, in my opinion.

I don't necessarily understand modern gender fluidity. I grew up in the 80's. But I believe that we should always be respectful to others regardless of our disagreements.

If I am wrong, please feel free to educate me. I promise I am not trying to be an ass.

[RockRaven]

1. Well, you're just wrong. Even setting aside gender fluidity, "M is M, F is F" is proven wrong by

babies being born every day with ambiguous genetalia.

The good news is that you are willing to learn. You've got lots of reading and listening to do. It will be enlightening if you follow through.

[rubbersole]

2. I can't believe why anyone says they're catholic.

Only because I was one. The human mind is complex. Give respect, get respect. You are doing that well darmok.

[Silent3]

3. Actual biological gender is more complicated than a female/male binary distinction

There are children born with genitals that are not distinctly male or female.

There are people who are born with XY chromosomes, but still develop female characteristics due to other biological factors suppressing their response to testosterone.

There are anatomical differences between "typical" male and female brains, but people whose brain anatomy is more like that of the opposite gender than their chromosomes would seem to indicate.

Gender is also, of course, about more than anatomy and genetics, but cultural norms and socialization. There's no particular reason to expect peoples' personalities to fall into line with often rigid stereotypes associated with gender.

[StopTheNeoCons]

12. Really love your post Silent3

[unblock]

4. "two genders" is, at best, a convenient simplification that works reasonably well for 99% of people

but fails miserably for the other 1%. the existence and experiences of that 1% doesn't invalidate our understanding of gender, it just refines it and expands it to better explain 100% of people, not just 99%.

i think of it a bit like newton's concept of gravity. einstein's theory of relativity refined our understanding and made us realize that newton's formulas weren't quite right. they served well for many ordinary purposes, but they failed miserably to explain certain situations such as the movement of stars where the relativistic effects are very pronounced.

relativity didn't completely invalidate newton's formulas, and they're still widely used in practice. but most people are now aware that in some cases, you need to think in relativistic terms.


i think of gender as two long lists of behaviors and traits and preferences and so on. there are a ton of habits and behaviors that are deemed either "boy/man" or "girl/woman" behaviors. so if you look at those long lists and say i'm on the "boy/man" side of nearly every one, then you probably thing of yourself as a boy/man. similarly for girl/women for that side.

but as you see, since it's a long list, there are actually plenty of boys/men who have some traits or habits on interests from the girl/woman side, and vice versa. so there's actually a bit of gender fluidity in all of us. but 99% of us feel comfortable saying we identify with one list or the other, even if we have a few items from the other list.

but for that 1%, either it's close to 50-50 from each list, or it depends on the circumstances. and for some, the list they identify with most doesn't line up with their body. our society says males are "supposed" to identify with the boy/man list, but it doesn't always work out that way.

and there are some who just think splitting those traits and preferences arbitrarily on to two lists is just silly and they refuse to play that game. they think of themselves as genderless or at least that gender is very unimportant to their sense of identity.


we're closing in on 8 billion people on this planet. what makes anyone think that every single one of them would fit neatly into a crude division into exactly 2 categories? especially something as complicated as gender?

[PJMcK]

8. This is extremely well-written - K&R

Excellent, unblock.

Have a good weekend!

[unblock]

9. thanks!

i've always been "tolerant and accepting" of lgbtqia+ people simply because i think it's idiotic to get upset about how other people live their lives when it really doesn't affect me in any way.

but i can't say i've always had much insight into it. growing up in the bible belt, i only knew one gay person (a teacher), and it wasn't even until senior year that i realized it when i met his significant other at a party.

in college, and since, i've had many gay friends, so i understand that much better, though i still thought of it through a binary lens (though i was dimly aware of a few intersex categories).

then, about a year and a half ago, mini-unblock informed us that the physical clues were misleading and that she was actually a girl. since then i've learned quite a lot more about gender, especially in her case, because she's not a very "girly-girl". her favorite color has always been pink, but she has zero interest in her appearance (she loves her bath, but she can be in there for an hour and never wash her hair :smh: and has no interest in makeup) and her speaking style is very stereotypically masculine (she interrupts, rarely yields when others try to chime in, doesn't use inappropriate question intonation, etc.)

so she's taught us that someone can think of themselves as a girl and still have plenty of "boyish" interests and behaviors.


funny thing is, even people who think in rigidly binary terms actually know this. we all know there are "alpha males" and then other men who are "effeminate" or who "aren't as manly", and there are women who aren't into makeup or who are more "manly". yet somehow there's a block in recognizing it as something more complicated than just a binary switch....

anyway, it's been a wild journey and we're still learning and discovering. but she's the same wonderful kid we've always known and so far it's all good. so great to live in the northeast where the schools are supportive and she has plenty of friends who accept her for who she is. we love texas, where we used to live, but this would have been more problematic for her there....

[multigraincracker]

5. The world is not black and white, it's all gray, see hermaphrodite.

You may notice that some men are more muscular and others less so. Same with females. Everyone is spread out across the Bell Curve. We tend to use words to separate things and that caused confusion. Where ever you are on that curve, there many, many others that are above or below you. That is a better way to look at the world.

[ananda]

6. DNA is not singular in some people, and body chemistry is complex.

Science is giving us some answers on gender fluidity.

For instance, the idea of an absorbed twin is very
enlightening, and shows that a person can have
more than one set of dna.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

7. It shouldn't matter, but it does, and because people are dying because of those who weaponize

the "belief in two genders," your opinion can be harmful to others.

I believe there are two genders.

What are they, and how are they defined?

Personally, I won't believe that a female is a male or a male is a female.

How are you defining male and female?

I would never try to intentionally disrespect anyone for any reason.

So why come on here and tell trans people on this board that you don't believe them when they talk about their gender? Why come on here and tell nonbinary people that they don't exist? Intent doesn't matter; coming on here and starting this topic in this way shows intentional disrespect.

I don't necessarily understand modern gender fluidity.

This would have been a good place to start and express a willingness to learn.

I grew up in the 80's.

Trans people were definitely around in the 80s, so I'm not sure why you're saying this.

[darmok167]

10. Thank you for this response.

I guess what I was asking is this...

I admit that I don't understand things. I do not deny that at all. I see a lot of people (especially conservatives or republicans) making a big deal out of it and politicizing it.

I think that is stupid. I remember when there was a big deal made out of "fireman" versus "firefighters".

I am not trying to minimize in any way what is going on right now, I am just trying to say that does it matter so much what we believe, or does it mater how we behave?

I believe in being kind. I believe in being understanding. I believe in being respectful. I believe in calling a person what they wish to be called. I think to do otherwise is to be an ass and oftentimes to do so intentionally.

I do not understand the current state of the discussion on what gender is. I have my personal beliefs. I am willing to listen to others.

But in the mean time, shouldn't how we treat each other matter more than how our internal clockwork (thoughts) works?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. Thanks for reconsidering your approach.

But in the mean time, shouldn't how we treat each other matter more than how our internal clockwork (thoughts) works?

Sure, but fascists, Republicans and bigots aren't doing this. So do you insist to them that internal clockwork doesn't matter? Because to them it absolutely does, as it does to the people they're targeting. You can, I suppose, but it's not an effective approach.

It's like people who insist race doesn't matter. Race and gender are both social constructs that matter hugely in any society. Culture is built around them. They *shouldn't* matter, but they do. Which is why I say that the concept of *should* doesn't matter, because people are acting cruel and terrible ways anyway.