Heart wrenching truth about how much US sucks.

[LakeArenal]

Just think the number if we counted all ages.

Astonishing that GOP can maintain such a grip.

[Diamond_Dog]

1. After Newtown

I saw a 2A zealot say in an interview that “our right to bear arms trumps your kid’s right to live.”

So that’s what we have to deal with ….

[LakeArenal]

2. No low too low.

[Celerity]

3. Joe the Plumber said 'your dead kids don't trump my constitutional rights.' (after the 2014 UC Santa

Bárbara mass shooting)

Samuel Wurzelbacher, better known as Joe the Plumber, insisted the deaths of innocent people "don't trump" his constitutional rights in an open letter to the families of victims in Friday's shooting rampage near the University of California, Santa Barbara.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-the-plumber-your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights_n_5b4f3e93e4b00e8c8eb7161e

[whathehell]

5. What was the response,

in the interview, to that sick statement?

I ask because I can't believe that even his fellow extremists wouldn't jump on that garbage.

No nation, including ours, is a pure reflection of either the very worst, or the very best, of a population in the hundreds of millions.

[Diamond_Dog]

26. I don't remember.

Probably his comment sickened me so I turned it off.

[Bettie]

6. My Brother's take

He's a MAGAt...but this was after Columbine.

"Dead children is the price we pay for our freedom."

[whathehell]

9. Does he have children?

[Bettie]

10. Yes, he does

but they were grown when this happened.

I wonder how he'd feel if it happened at his grandchild's school.

But we don't really speak anymore.

[whathehell]

15. Right..I know what you're saying.

It's a terrible thing to say or believe. One would like to believe that, by virtue of not actually thinking it through, he hadn't really meant it.

That said, I can understand why you don't speak much anymore.

[treestar]

33. Even if he did, it doesn't matter to them

because they assume it won't happen to them. Relative to the population, it is a rare occurrence, so they know it's not likely to be their kids.

I recall a debate where someone said about the death penalty: that even if some innocent people were executed, it would still be OK as the system would not be perfect. Figuring of course they would never be the one executed when they were innocent.

[Mr. Ected]

32. I guess the idea that he could also have been referring to abortion

Never crossed his mind.

[housecat]

13. No we don't. Not if we do something about it.

[tblue37]

25. That was Joe the Plumber.

[Magoo48]

75. We're on a dark road.

Scared Americans, enchanted by 2nd Amendment mythology, lead the way deeper into a dark, bloody death lottery.

[malaise]

4. Exceptional and don't you dare

forget it

[BlackSkimmer]

52. Fill us in on the crime rate in Jamaica, could you?

And while you're at it, how about the stats on police brutality, gay rights, and abortion?

Again, people in glass houses...

[malaise]

53. We're exceptional too

and fully loaded with guns from the USA.
To be kind this hemisphere in up shit creek without a paddle led by guess who.

[BlackSkimmer]

55. Well, not sure how you mean since President Biden is our leader now?

Jamaica has been up there in crime, police corruption and brutality, prison rape and violence, homophobia and all kinds of lovely things for years and years. Anyone can google those stats. There's been an advisory for LGBT travelers for some time.

I remember the big debacle with the gay cruise ships. Didn't they refuse to let them dock or some such?

Or was it just they threatened violence to any gay person who dared step ashore? I know they certainly followed through on some of those threats. I remember it well.

Are you saying it is someone, some other country's fault? Really?

[malaise]

56. This is not about the current administration

but if being ahistorical is your thing carry on. I won't be responding.

[BlackSkimmer]

58. Ah, so even if a country achieves its independence, it can still blame others for its problems.

Got it. How very convenient.

Is there a time limit on that? When did Jamaica become independent? The 50s or 60s, if memory serves?

[EX500rider]

67. I believe late in 1962.... 61 years ago. Nt

[femmedem]

71. Surely you don't believe someone can't criticize the U.S.

unless they live in a perfect country?

That would be like saying we can't criticize Russia--or Jamaica or Costa Rica, for that matter--until we improve.

I am baffled by your hostility towards Malaise.

Edited to add: I welcome the perspective of DUers who don't live in the U.S. And this is a discussion board filled with people who are politically active in the U.S., therefore it is reasonable for discussions to focus on the U.S.'s policies and data, regardless of where someone is posting from.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

73. Gun deaths, the article is about Guns!! And children death rate...by Guns.

[EX500rider]

82. More truthfully stated as the death rate of young adults, age 17-19

The main cause of death of actual children is accidents.

Leading causes of death
Children aged 1-4 years
1.Accidents (unintentional injuries)
2.Congenital malformations, deformations and chromosomal abnormalities
3.Assault (homicide)
Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2021) via CDC WONDER

Children aged 5-9 years
1.Accidents (unintentional injuries)
2.Cancer
3.Assault (homicide)
Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2021) via CDC WONDER

Children aged 10-14 years
1.Accidents (unintentional injuries)
2.Intentional self-harm (suicide)
3.Cancer
Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2021) via CDC WONDER

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/child-health.htm

[RKP5637]

7. And they try to say guns save peoples lives. Another WTF. Guess that NRA money paid to

politicians is more valuable than our kids. Come to America, vacation, and bury your kids.

America really is desperately in need of psychiatric help. I'm surprised the US is a travel destination for vacationing. Go to Florida and if someone thinks your kid is Tran they will legally take them from you. Another total WTF.

[Axelrods_Typewriter]

68. In my conversations with people not from the US, more and more of them are choosing to

vacation in other countries and areas.

You need a license to cut hair, a license to do electrical work, a license to drive, a license to fish or hunt, but all you need to buy a gun is an ID. Store chemicals wrong and mess up a kid's life, you go to jail; store a gun wrong and mess up a kid's life and you get off. SMH.

[Upthevibe]

8. LakeArenal......

...................

[CousinIT]

11. ANYBODY who support this as OK is NOT "pro-life"

And they don't give a DAMN about children or babies.

[erronis]

12. Sometimes just the raw numbers are better than fancy graphs.

And these are very raw and horrible numbers.

[treestar]

34. they need to be in percentages though

immediately it comes to mind that those countries don't have as many people.

[erronis]

40. Absolutely, yes. This is a major problem with the presentation.

Thanks for bringing it up.

[erronis]

14. It's always good to post a link to the original data. The closest I see is at

https://www.kff.org/health-reform/press-release/firearms-are-the-leading-cause-of-death-for-children-in-the-united-states-but-rank-no-higher-than-fifth-in-other-industrialized-nations/

I'm guessing these fed into the visual in the OP - seem about the right percentages.

Any child killed by a gun is one too many. But then there's American Exceptionalism.

[LakeArenal]

18. Says: Kaiser Foundation

[erronis]

19. Yes - I see that. I also subscribe to feeds from the Kaiser Family Foundation.

I did not find this particular image on the kff.org site. If you have a link, it would be nice to provide it.

[LakeArenal]

20. Someone sent it to me as is. I'm believing be accurate

If you don’t okay.

[erronis]

22. I think it's OK. Just hoping to have a source for validation and to be able to refer to later.

As I said earlier, the numbers look about right from the Kaiser Family Foundation (kff.org) site.

Also note that KFF is not affiliated with the Kaiser Health Insurance company; they split off many years ago and are (I think) independent.

[xocetaceans]

87. So, unsurprisingly, the number in the graphic is bogus. The actual KFF tables are linked below.

Terribly tragically, there were actually 2,281 people (ages 0-17) in the US who died as a result of firearms in 2020, not the 4,357 that is given in the graphic.

In 2021 (the last year of data which seems available to the KFF search), that number is given by the database as 2,590 people in the US (ages 0-17) who died as a result of firearms.

Below is a link to the KFF page that describes the data for several years. It seems to start by displaying 2021. (The timeframe value on the left may be changed to see the other available years, if one selects differing years below the gray "REFINE RESULTS" header at the head of the column on the left side of the webpage.)

Deaths Due to Firearms per 100,000 Population by Age
Timeframe: 2021

...

Notes
Reported rates are crude rates per 100,000 people.

Causes of death attributable to firearms include ICD-10 Codes W32-W34, Accidental discharge of firearm; Codes X72-X74, Intentional self-harm by firearm; X93-X95, Assault by firearm; Y22-Y24, Firearm discharge, undetermined intent; and Y35.0, Legal intervention involving firearm discharge. Deaths from injury by firearms exclude deaths due to explosives and other causes indirectly related to firearms.

Sources

KFF analysis of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), National Center for Health Statistics. Multiple Cause of Death 2010-2021 on CDC WONDER Online Database. Data are from the Multiple Cause of Death Files, 2010-2021, as compiled from data provided by the 57 vital statistics jurisdictions through the Vital Statistics Cooperative Program. Accessed at http://wonder.cdc.gov/mcd-icd10.html on March 31, 2023.

For the sake of completeness, here are the pages that allow one to create one's own reports to see the data:

Where to start the creation of a report:
https://www.kff.org/statedata/custom/

How it is suggested to cite the data upon which the report is based:
https://www.kff.org/about-state-health-facts/

Lastly, none of the above denies that the US has a extremely serious problem with gun violence. I believe that it is important that such problems are addressed with factual information as well as it can be determined, lest the country fully descend into opposing realms of "alternative facts" with the actual substantiated facts left behind.

[xocetaceans]

81. The broader question is why...

...you would think that forwarding unsourced propaganda would be a great practice. On an anonymous board, why should anyone believe you? Further, why should you believe something that is just passed on to you without actual references? Simply, adding "source: Kaiser Family Foundation" to an image is not at all the same as linking to actual data on a reputable website. That you don't seem to understand that fact diminishes your credibility quite a bit - especially when you become defensive for people asking for a source. It essentially screams out, "This poster is possibly highly gullible, possibly a fool or maybe is trolling." What you're seemingly accepting and propagating as behavior is how things like QAnon get started.

Beyond that, there are a million questions which could be asked of the loaded language and image which you've propagated. ("What is this 'America'? Is that supposed actually to mean 'USA'?", etc.) That sort of posted image gets a response, just not the one you perhaps want (or the one that we need) since you've made yourself so easily dismissible. It's too bad you don't take the gun issue seriously enough to communicate with actual facts and in a way that respects your audience.

The counterpoint on your side is likely, "But I'm just innocently posting?! Get off my back!" But that's not a good faith position, for if it were, you would both understand and respect the discourse on this issue.

[erronis]

90. THIS - this is always right. Don't post unsubstantiated claims on DU.

Thanks, xocetaceans.

[Celerity]

29. here

https://www.kff.org/global-health-policy/issue-brief/child-and-teen-firearm-mortality-in-the-u-s-and-peer-countries/

[treestar]

39. off topic, but scary to have cancer beat out accidents

and cars. Extra safe drivers? Maybe they have really safe systems.

[malaise]

84. Great work

as always

[Celerity]

85. thanks sis!

[Aviation Pro]

16. What if?

In an alternate timeline, one of those kids found the link to curing cancer.

Think about it.

[BootinUp]

23. The damage is incalculable. nt

[Wounded Bear]

28. For them, 'children' only have potential in utero. After that, they're just stats...nt

[OMGWTF]

17. Putin is the real Chairman of the Rethuglican Party and the NRA.

He giggles every time there's a mass shooting in the US, which is about every fking day now. Rethugs are dragging us into the stone age with Putin's help. This is not normal.

[erronis]

21. Exactly. May putin and his other RW oligarchs/plutocrats both outside and inside this country.

They think it would be rather nice to have the US government dissolve so they can reform some type of feudal society.

[bdamomma]

41. I believe

Putin is all behind this, he wants the US to break apart, and he is using race, guns and hate, and has the GOP in his back pocket.

[lame54]

24. Canada and France should be ashamed...

We're way beyond that

[Bayard]

27. I expect our stats are way higher now

These are from 4 years ago.

[bringthePaine]

30. so much for "pro life" fuckery, eh? take away their tax exemption and this shit changes...

[nuxvomica]

31. people will say "meaningless unless you adjust for population"

When you calculate the numbers per total population, the U.S. is still the worst:

Japan: 5 per 126,476,461 or 1 per 25,295,292
Netherlands: 2 per 17,134,872 or 1 per 8,567,436
UK: 8 per 67,886,011 or 1 per 8,485,751
Germany: 14 per 83,783,942 or 1 per 5,984,567
Australia: 10 per 25,499,884 or 1 per 2,549,988
Sweden: 4 per 10,099,265 or 1 per 2,524,816
Belgium 5 per 11,589,623 or 1 per 2,317,925
Austria: 4 per 9,006,398 or 1 per 2,251,600
France: 48 per 65,273,511 or 1 per 1,359,865
Canada: 48 per 37,742,154 or 1 per 786,295
US: 4357 per 331,002,651 or 1 per 75,970

So Canada, the second worst, has a ratio more than 10 times higher than the U.S.

[erronis]

42. Thank you. This should have been presented in all the prior charts.

There is still something chilling about the vast number of murders when not adjusted by population. 4,357 is a huge number of innocent people killed by guns in the US.

[erronis]

45. I think the proper terminology in this context is "10 times lower"

It always gets interesting when things like higher/better are involved - especially with ratios.

[mnhtnbb]

47. Correct.

The rate in Canada is more than 10 times lower than in the US, or to flip it, the rate in the US is more than 10 times higher than in Canada.

[BlackSkimmer]

54. Those are large "first world" countries.

the OP doesn't live in one of those, and the murder rate in the OP's chosen country puts ours to shame.

[Celerity]

65. another way to measure

[Alexander Of Assyria]

72. Slaughter of children doesn't move The Press, so it wont move republicans.

The Press apparently don’t care about the carnage, to children, or democracy…it’s maddening and frightening.

Germans get it.

[Curtis]

35. I used to support the 2nd Amendment

Now I support an Amendment that would overturn the 2nd much like the 21st overturned the 18th. We don't need guns.

[bdamomma]

36. and just think

this number could be decreased if they banned assault weapons. Show bodies of the dead instead useless worthless "thoughts and prayers".

[erronis]

43. Maybe we could get the US Congress to have a bulletin board outside of their chambers

with recent photographs of victims using assault rifles. They can file by every day (that they bother to work) averting their eyes and checking their cell-phones.

[bdamomma]

46. Just show the dead

on the nightly news, didn't we see the Vietnam War in our living rooms every night and then people protested in the streets calling for the end of the war.

[McKim]

37. Then there are he slower deaths......

Then there are the slower deaths from bad water, lead poisoning, poorly funded education, food deserts and lack of standard, cheap high quality day care.

[burrowowl]

38. KICK

[dlk]

44. Americans are living with tyranny disguised as freedom

And the daily body count continues to rise.

[EX500rider]

48. Assuming you count 17, 18 & 19 yo's as children

The leading cause of death amoung actual children is still accidental death.

[TwilightZone]

49. In most of the world, the legal age for most purposes is 18.

Including 46 of the 50 states. With some exceptions, of course, like the drinking age in the US.

That being the case, 17-year-olds would be classified as children. 18- and 19-year-olds would not.

[EX500rider]

66. Children are usually considered to be under the age of puberty

At 17 you can join the US military..

[BlackSkimmer]

51. The OP lives in another country.

One that is much, much smaller than the US, but their murder rate is astronomical, even compared with ours.

The first quarter of this year, their murder rate has jumped almost 40%.

Don't even ask about abortion rights in that country.

We have a lot of problems here, but I dislike posters preaching to us from other shores.

Those who live in glass houses...kind of thing.

[JI7]

57. Where does the OP Live ? Maybe they are there for work

but are still US Citizens. And one can criticize both also.

[BlackSkimmer]

59. Sure, but transparency is a thing.

Or it sure used to be.

And judging from past posts, nope, not for work. Just liked it better for many reasons. Nothing wrong with that.

But lecturing about crime and abortion rights from a country that has more of the former and less of the latter is just a bit difficult to take from someone who moved to said country voluntarily.

[JI7]

61. Which country did they move to ?

[BlackSkimmer]

62. According to previous posts, Costa Rica.

Beautiful place, but crime, abortion rights...ehhh, not so good.

[malaise]

63. The OP is an American n/t

[BlackSkimmer]

64. An American who voluntarily moved to a country with higher crime and less abortion rights.

People posting here about how everyone should "flee" certain states, yet we have members who have "fled" to more conservative countries.

That's my only point. I thought that would be pellucidly clear.

[róisín_dubh]

69. So can I comment then?

I’m a US American who moved to the UK.
The US is seriously fucked in a number of ways and this is just one of them.
I thank god I left and the only reason I have to go back is because I love my family. If I had no family, I’d never step foot in the US again.
I don’t worry about guns. Or medical bills. Or abortion rights.
I do worry about the toxic influence the US has on the UK.

[malaise]

70. THIS n/t

[Celerity]

86. The surging Costa Rican violence problence is a fairly new thing, and revolves around the drug trade

that is feeding the American and European habits.

I have no clue when the OP moved there, but perhaps it was before there was the surge.

Also, you are applying a chalk and cheese manner of comparison to apparently try and downplay the horrific facts about guns/violence/deaths in the US.

The US is BY FAR the most gun death-soaked (per capita, not just in terms of gross numbers) first world advanced nation, especially for children being blown away by firearms. It is hardly an effective rebuttal to that to start tossing in third world nations (I suppose unless you are going to claim the US is overall a third world nation on balance, which it obviously is not).




Costa Rica’s peace is disturbed: Homicides have increased by 66% in the past decade

https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-03-25/costa-ricas-peace-is-disturbed-homicides-have-increased-by-66-in-the-past-decade.html

Murders are no longer newsworthy in Costa Rica, as the word “shooting” becomes more and more frequent in the local media headlines. And homicides are no longer taking place just during the night. Recently, an armed attack took place at 9AM on a busy highway in the capital, San José.

Costa Rica – a country internationally recognized for its peaceful atmosphere – now has a homicide rate that is inconsistent with its reputation. In the last decade, murders have increased at a rate almost unlike any country in Latin America. There have even been recent attacks inside schools, or between schoolchildren.

The 2022 murder report was the highest in the country’s history: a figure 66.5% higher than that of 2012, for a record rate of 12.6 murders per 100,000 inhabitants. Meanwhile, the 2023 numbers already exceed the homicides that took place in the first three months of 2022 by 30%.

Disputes between criminal gangs – mostly dedicated to drug trafficking – are no longer confined to the marginal neighborhoods or the coastal regions, where cocaine passes from south to north. Over the past two decades, increases in poverty and inequality, budget cuts to the police force and the growing influence of international gangs have put Costa Rica against the ropes. While the Central American nation boasts of having abolished its army 75 years ago to dedicate resources to social investment, recent results haven’t been good.

[BlackSkimmer]

50. Now post the murder rate in Costa Rica. And compare it to the US per capita.

I'll let you do it. Easily found on google.

We'll wait.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

74. Gun death rate per 100000...8.8

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/45/rate_of_all_gun_deaths_per_100_000_people

How many children killed by Guns? Don’t know…probably not 47000, not the leading cause of children deaths.

[EX500rider]

76. Costa Rica's homicide rate is roughly double the USA

Dead is dead whether someone shot you or killed you with a machete.
Frankly I'd rather be shot.

[WarGamer]

60. Since there's no link

https://www.kff.org/health-reform/press-release/firearms-are-the-leading-cause-of-death-for-children-in-the-united-states-but-rank-no-higher-than-fifth-in-other-industrialized-nations/

Firearms are now the number one cause of death for children in the United States, but rank no higher than fifth in 11 other large and wealthy countries, a new KFF analysis finds.

Guns – including accidental deaths, suicides, and homicides – killed 4,357 children (ages 1-19 years old) in the United States in 2020, or roughly 5.6 per 100,000 children.

[EX500rider]

77. Really a stretch to call 19 year olds children

But they have to otherwise they'd have to say accidents are the leading cause among actual children.

[SidneyR]

78. "America" is a continent, not a country

Even though the power of the US enables it to co-opt the word, it's still incorrect. And annoying to see.

But yes, this country is f'n weird. I'd move if I could. Maybe rural England would be nice.

[erronis]

89. I totally agree with you. I've tried to raise this point many times and get told

"everyone knows that America means the US."

I don't agree. As probably all Mexicans and Canadians.

[1WorldHope]

79. This needs to be on billboards all over America

nt

[GreenWave]

80. When the 6 year tried to kill his teacher in my neck of the woods...

they (the administrators) are saying that a teacher should know they face danger, they should expect violence... WTH???Is that part of the job description?

[AncientOfDays]

83. conservatives handwave

I've had discussions on Usenet on this subject. Conservatives invariably argue that teen deaths are not children. They claim deaths are 18 & 19 yo "gang bangers" and the like.

[xocetaceans]

88. The 2020 US number which is advertised in your posted graphic is bogus according to KFF's database.

Terribly tragically, there were actually 2,281 people (ages 0-17) in the US who died as a result of firearms in 2020, not the 4,357 that is given in the graphic.

In 2021 (the last year of data which seems available to the KFF search), that number is given by the database as 2,590 people in the US (ages 0-17) who died as a result of firearms.

Below is a link to the KFF page that describes the data for several years. It seems to start by displaying 2021. (The timeframe value on the left may be changed to see the other available years, if one selects differing years below the gray "REFINE RESULTS" header at the head of the column on the left side of the webpage.)

Deaths Due to Firearms per 100,000 Population by Age
Timeframe: 2021

...

Notes
Reported rates are crude rates per 100,000 people.

Causes of death attributable to firearms include ICD-10 Codes W32-W34, Accidental discharge of firearm; Codes X72-X74, Intentional self-harm by firearm; X93-X95, Assault by firearm; Y22-Y24, Firearm discharge, undetermined intent; and Y35.0, Legal intervention involving firearm discharge. Deaths from injury by firearms exclude deaths due to explosives and other causes indirectly related to firearms.

Sources

KFF analysis of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), National Center for Health Statistics. Multiple Cause of Death 2010-2021 on CDC WONDER Online Database. Data are from the Multiple Cause of Death Files, 2010-2021, as compiled from data provided by the 57 vital statistics jurisdictions through the Vital Statistics Cooperative Program. Accessed at http://wonder.cdc.gov/mcd-icd10.html on March 31, 2023.

For the sake of completeness, here are the pages that allow one to create one's own reports to see the data:

Where to start the creation of a report:
https://www.kff.org/statedata/custom/

How it is suggested to cite the data upon which the report is based:
https://www.kff.org/about-state-health-facts/

None of the above denies that the US has a extremely serious problem with gun violence. I believe that it is important that such problems are addressed with factual information as well as it can be determined, lest the country fully descend into opposing realms of "alternative facts" with the actual substantiated facts left behind.

Please take these issues seriously enough to investigate sources before just posting someone else's propaganda.

[NotVeryImportant]

91. I knew America was Satanic after Sandy Hook

When absolutely nothing was done to curb this gun violence.

Since then it's only been more of the same.