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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsA disturbing new detail about the photo of the classified documents found in Trump's possession...
It's been more than 15 years since I had to handle cover sheets for classified documents, but the information in this article is 100% correct.
Folks, it's as bad as we had feared. I had suspected that this had been done, but thought there was no way to tell. Fortunately, I was wrong. From Daily Kos:
When I first saw the photo of Exhibit 2A, I blanched. Trump tried to distract by ranting about the papers dumped on his carpet. That was just a feeble attempt at misdirection. What struck me was the document placed front and center, and the ruler.
Those documents aren’t dumped randomly on the carpet. They are being displayed in a very deliberate way. They are physical evidence that somebody committed a very serious crime. The kind of crime that lands people in a Supermax prison.
Look at the Secret//SCI document bounded by the ruler. Why did they put a ruler there? That’s a good question. Everyone knows the size of a standard sheet of paper. You don’t need a ruler to measure it. If you look up towards the left, you will see there are at least two other cover sheets with a similar border. Notice anything different?
In case you missed it, look at the border around the document that is front and center. If that was an original document, there should be no white border. You see the cover sheets for these sort of documents are printed by the US government printing office. They are specifically designed to signal the status of the document they cover. Now it would be nice to know if someone took a document and copied it. Turns out that is part of the design of the cover sheet.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/5/27/2171698/-I-have-been-waiting-for-someone-to-point-out-the-obvious-tell-in-this-photo
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Blue Owl
(56,168 posts)triron
(22,240 posts)
drray23
(8,221 posts)Show that they were not originals but copies. Meaning, who knows how many copies Trump made and sold to people.
cstanleytech
(27,579 posts)
Drum
(10,272 posts)The red border is a lighter color, too, and the pigment doesn’t extend to the edge of the paper.
Edit to add: I believe that the evidence that locked up Reality Winner was a tiny electronic signature of a printer or photocopier?
OMGWTF
(4,698 posts)
soldierant
(8,466 posts)at Daily Kos, it exolains that the yelloe ones which have a white border are also copies. [That shade of] yellow means Top Secret.
RipVanWinkle
(266 posts)“Mar-A-Lago documents copied”.
Shipwack
(2,650 posts)Yours gets to the point.
Thanks for the feedback!
markodochartaigh
(2,800 posts)a society which relishes click bait rather than facts. I think that you were correct in choosing the title which will get the most eyes on the article. If this extraordinarily serious article was being discussed on every news show and in every streetcorner cafe in the country we wouldn't need click bait, we probably wouldn't be in the situation we are in now.
wnylib
(25,256 posts)of these exceptionally high top secret documents. They are the kind of classified docs that should be under lock and key if another person is present, unless that other person has the very rare top secret clearance for this type of classified doc.
In other words, this type of classified doc would be very valuable to certain persons outside of the US government who would pay a LOT to get a copy of them. The white border around the red border on the cover sheets is evidence that they were copied.
Therefore, a reasonable conclusion from the evidence is that Trump had copies made (an illegal act in violation of top secret security) in order to sell the info to someone outside of the US.
Celerity
(49,706 posts)
COL Mustard
(7,365 posts)It's only when they're used with classified information that they are classified. I've made copies of cover sheets, and frequently have their images on my desktop so when I need one I don't have to go and find it. But yes, the documents themselves are of course classified.
moniss
(7,196 posts)that these clowns would have separated the cover sheet from the other documents prior to putting them into the auto-feeder on the copier. I believe that they also would not have bothered to keep track of originals versus copies. That scenario may very well have been "purchaser/courier" standing next to whoever was running the copier and just grabbing the originals when the copier completed the feed. I believe the conversation may have gone something like this: "I need to make a copy before I give you this", "Ok I will come with you".
Which of course leads to larger questions. If they made copies and kept the copy for themselves do we have all of the copies accounted for? If they made copies and kept the originals how many copies of each document did they make? There would certainly be multiple "purchasers" who would be interested in any particular document. Maybe if you order the "gourmet" dinner special at Mar-ugh-Ghastly you get a choice of having your "purchased mementos" printed on various types of high quality, gilt edged and monogrammed paper. At least the sheets that don't have catsup spatter all over them.
KS Toronado
(21,017 posts)especially after forking over his asking price. 
moniss
(7,196 posts)because a further "resale" would get a higher level of credibility/price if the 2nd seller was able to show the original.
Igel
(36,746 posts)I see two sets of documents.
I see cover sheets--some possibly original, some photocopies.
I see blank pages. The heading has text--blurred--but the actual pages are blank. That I can see blurred text on some documents rather leads to me to conclude that the lack of blurred text on others entails the pages devoid of blurred text are blank. Hard to classify nullity.
Perhaps to preserve security, since publicizing pirated secret documents would be its own security breach, they insisted on blank last pages--perhaps not. Or maybe they edited the photo--meaning it's unreliable because it's edited.
Yes, burden of proof is on the accuser. Always. When it comes to matters juridical. Otherwise would be to hate liberty, the only very reason for democracy.
canetoad
(18,986 posts)Geometric shapes are, I believe, digital redactions of the text on the sheets. So yes, the photograph released to the public was digitally altered.
High crimes have been demonstrated.
onetexan
(13,913 posts)republianmushroom
(19,761 posts)
Tetrachloride
(8,692 posts)
Bernardo de La Paz
(55,334 posts)republianmushroom
(19,761 posts)Were these doc's fingerprint by the FBI ?
Kid Berwyn
(20,258 posts)Probably even grabbed DNA off them and any scent of chemistry.
Who knows what else FBI can do to learn with whom Dimdonnie shared them — and where.
Autumn
(47,774 posts)erronis
(19,464 posts)They're on the internet, dark web, foreign intelligence services, criminals from around the world.
They are on multiple external drives and zipped back and forth.
The value of these documents may plummet for the seller (Trump et.al.) as they become freely available. I'm sure mbs, putin and some others paid top dollar to see the first copies.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)The only prudent course, as soon as it was known that Light-Finger Louie had these documents in his short little fingers, would be to assume that every hostile on the planet knew everything that was in them.
Richard D
(9,715 posts). . . that copy machines leave a microscopic identification signature in the printing that identifies the exact machine that made the copies. This could get very interesting.
jgo
(993 posts)bringthePaine
(1,806 posts)
hibbing
(10,422 posts)moniss
(7,196 posts)things they all did that we didn't find out about.
yourmovemonkey
(271 posts)Glad that someone who's familiar with these kind of documents is sharing their knowledge.
Joinfortmill
(17,950 posts)Now, we need to prove it. Trump is a goddamn traitor.
Botany
(74,055 posts)... and that has to do with remote sensing AKA our satellites and I have a family member who worked with that stuff and he/she could be put in prison if he/she talked about that stuff today even though he/she is now retired. I am sure Trump let Putin/Russia know about
what we have over the Ukraine/Russia/Belarus area.
Ilsa
(62,751 posts)snip
The author adds that the agents who originally found the documents had to get special clearance to take that photograph.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(24,114 posts)There are no documents showing in the photo. There may be some documents covered by blank paper, others covered by classification covers. The covers that say "Top Secret" are not themselves classified unless there is extra classified info written on them. They're just generic covers. The photo reveals nothing in the documents.
What am I missing?
forgotmylogin
(7,832 posts)They had to move the cover sheets and lay the blank paper over the contents (I think just showing the title or code at the top) to redact them.
I like the part in the article that's like - the way this tableaux was laid out shows the person who took the picture was furious and knew a crime had been committed and carefully arranged it to show this - it's on Trump's carpet, showing Trump's possessions next to things that were *not* his possessions and were copied which is I'm sure a big no-no as they likely have records of all authorized copies.
Ilsa
(62,751 posts)They wanted to be certain they had permission to take slightly fuzzy photos of documents to document what they found. Their jobs could have been on the line, plus attorneys might hsve claimed the agents broke thr law if they weren't cleared. I'm only speculating, though.
pnwmom
(109,844 posts)Note that there is no form number on the white-bordered Trump cover sheets. Photocopying does not explain the absence of those markings. What that tells me that the cover sheet was not an official government form. Instead, Trump probably ordered them on Etsy. www.etsy.com/… (not the precise item, but I’m sure there are other listings and non-Etsy sources).
I also don’t see staples in any of the Trump cover sheets with white borders. While that could be a photo quality issue, it could also mean that the Etsy cover sheets weren’t attached to actual secret (or non-secret) documents.
SNIP
Does that mean that Trump was printing multiple copies of secret documents, but didn’t want to splurge on a color copier to copy the cover sheets? Was he using Etsy cover sheets to pass off non-secret documents as secret? Or was he just using the Etsy sheets as party favors? I don’t know, but I am rather confident that your diary does not prove what it set out to prove.
Final point: How do you know that the pages in the photo were the “standard sheets of paper” for which everyone knows the size? (Do you think Trump couldn’t print half-sheets or poster-size sheets of paper?) You know that these were standard-size sheets of paper because the FBI put a ruler next to them. That is standard procedure. Otherwise, an agent would have to testify that the pages were 8.5 by 11, and would be asked “Did you measure them? Are you certain that they weren’t 9 x 11.5? And if you are lying to the jury about that, what else are you lying about? If you were that sloppy, what else about this investigation was sloppy?”
malthaussen
(18,083 posts)So the photo is of fake sensitive materials cover sheets, some of which have apparently been copied (one presumes they don't come with that telltale border). We of course have no idea of what is in the obscured materials, but since the fake cover sheets are not classified (and would not be classified even if they were real), why did the FBI need a special clearance to take the photos?
So one wonders what Mr Trump, in his dark fantasies, was playing at, but one also wonders why this photograph was published in the first place, since it doesn't really show anything. I'll be very interested to learn what, if anything, comes of the documents investigation.
-- Mal
forgotmylogin
(7,832 posts)It's expensive and prints slower if you're just working with a document.
And under normal circumstances with non-classified info, you probably don't need the cover sheet.
You'd only copy and include the "not-classified" cover sheet in color if you wanted the copy to infer the prestige of an actual top secret document. Especially if you were presenting to someone interested in that document.
moniss
(7,196 posts)because I don't have the energy today to read the whole story but the special clearance may be about having any imaging device with you when you enter an area with classified documents. I've seen it before where before entering an area you have to give up your phone, keys etc. to security and they put them in an envelope and a locker.
reACTIONary
(6,401 posts)You have to leave them outside. Sometimes there is a shelf or a locker, but a lot of times you just leave them on the floor. I've never encountered a prohibition on keys.
moniss
(7,196 posts)thing is people will have fobs that can actually be devices.
reACTIONary
(6,401 posts)... They do prohibit "smart watches" and fit-bit devices.
moniss
(7,196 posts)
reACTIONary
(6,401 posts)... they were prohibiting flash drives.
moniss
(7,196 posts)some of these very well so that you don't see the contacts so when it's on a key-ring it passes if it just gets a quick look from a distance.
malthaussen
(18,083 posts)Or they might have needed the special clearance because they saw what was on the obscured documents, which might be sensitive. I wonder if the agents knew (at the time) that the cover sheets weren't legit?
-- Mal
moniss
(7,196 posts)of agents and the ability to plan ahead they likely had some agents with document expertise in the group. Somebody apparently knew enough about how to display them for taking pics. I've read previously that what the clowns claimed as "tossed around on the floor" is actually a typical arrangement that has been used by investigators and prosecutors in previous cases. I also still believe that we may have gotten info from friendly foreign intelligence sources that the "shopping mall" was open for business.
Qutzupalotl
(15,340 posts)They would have had to remove the staples if they wanted to use a document feeder. Otherwise, they's have to copy one page at a time — very time-consuming if you've got a few pallets to copy.
As to the Etsy theory — it's possible, but why wouldn't the Etsy fakes bleed? Who would pay for an obvious fake? And when has Trump paid for anything, especially when he can get someone to make copies on the cheap?
I think the author is right, and the documents themselves are evidence of a further crime.
liberal N proud
(61,109 posts)It was so much worse see than that. Far more than we could have imagined.
The fact that we are still the country we are is a astonishing
Stuart G
(38,726 posts)Donald Trump former President ....stealing documents as President of the United States is. NOT THE WORST.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
FAR FROM IT. YES, TRUMP IS A BAD GUY WHO NEEDS TO BE PROSECUTED AND PUT INTO JAIL........BUT ...
IF YOU CAN FIND THE MATERIALS IN SOME LIBRARY.......
.READ UP ON THE ....CIVIL WAR...1860S...WHEN LINCOLN WAS PRESIDENT ...IN THE 1860s.....................
.AND NO MODERN MEDICINE AND MEDICAL PROCEEDURES AND MEDICAL DOCTORS...........AND.................
FAR GREATER PERCENTAGE OF SOLDIERS IN WAR KILLED....................
etc, etc, etc.................................................................................................................................... .
...........................That is probably the .......WORST...........AND WE SOMEHOW SURVIVED.......!!!!
liberal N proud
(61,109 posts)It's the whole of his crimes and I believe we are not done learning of even more heinous crimes.
He intended to remain in office indefinitely
Axelrods_Typewriter
(298 posts)reACTIONary
(6,401 posts)
Vinca
(52,007 posts)
Martin68
(25,698 posts)moniss
(7,196 posts)might know about the memory function built into most copiers. Does the memory capture the image or does it just capture the data like time/date/paper size/number of copies etc.? If the memory captures the images and some enterprising "guest" etc. had a thumb drive could they just do a quick insert at the copier and get what is in the memory? I'm behind the curve on imaging and I still tell people to Xerox a document.
Yes, for the younger folks here, there really was a time (seems recent in my mind) when school kids were very familiar with getting work sheets that were mimeographed and hoping you got one from the early part of the run so you could read it. I also remember very well putting a sheet of carbon paper between my two sheets of typing paper before rolling them into the Underwood. Clack, clack, clack..ding!!
erronis
(19,464 posts)Each printer/scanner/copier has its own set of capabilities depending on their use. Personal/home copiers won't keep an in memory image usually and will just have a rudimentary copy count.
Small business/departmental ones may have different settings depending on the user.
Storing complete copies of every scanned document is probably not normal unless the company requires it. There is a fair amount of storage for each page.
The problem is probably that these documents were likely scanned directly onto external media (USB). These can be easily exfiltrated past any security and are then available to distribute via the inner-tubes to everyone on the earth.
moniss
(7,196 posts)someone just used a phone app for example or one of those cheapy "pocket" scanners.
wishstar
(5,700 posts)FBI came in June to collect docs and he allowed them to take some classified docs alleging that was all he had in his possession. Of course FBI later recovered many others during the later August search including these that look like copies.
Wonder if some of these classified docs that appear to be photocopies are copies he made of the original ones that he allowed the FBI to take in June so he could keep copies.
erronis
(19,464 posts)On orders from his handlers (mbs, putin, ???)
newdayneeded
(2,493 posts)is this was known in August or before of last year. 9+ months. this is iron clad evidence! This would have you or I, we would on our 3rd month of prison time. What the fuck is the AG or the DOJ waiting for?
usonian
(17,478 posts)Every printer and copier leaves a trace on the copy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code
I doubt that the thugs were smart enough to defeat the coding, since a counter to it was only worked out in 2018.
IMO, too little time for the thugs to grasp, and to apply.
keithbvadu2
(40,915 posts)
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)was going to use these documents to get as much $$$ as he could... maybe he's already begun (how much did kushner reportedly get from MBS?). There is really no other conclusion that can be made that reasonably/logically fits what DT did. We know he was not emotionally attached to them and he knows good and GD well he can't just think top secret document into being non-classified...ffs.
DT's time as president was the deadliest period of time America's ever gone thru. COVID is Americas greatest loss of life single event. Well over a million Americans died while DT called it a hoax everyday from the WH. How many more Americans will this mans incompetence or nefariousness cost us before we deal with him once and for always.
reACTIONary
(6,401 posts)... where I work we use folders that have stripped boarders, not solid boarders. These are commercially available office supplies, they don't come from the government printing office, which would be a big boondoggle.
reACTIONary
(6,401 posts).... many of the closed areas where I work have copiers and copier / printers for classified copying and printing. Outside of the closed areas, copiers and printers are labeled "not for classified". As long as you are in a closed area using a copier that is authorized for classified material, there is no prohibition on copying or printing.
During training, we are given instructions on how to clear a paper jam while copying classified documents. You have to do the whole paper train, not just the jam. Then you have to run some blank pages through before resuming the classified material.
And... Don't forget to retrieve your original from the platen !!!
The bottom line is that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with copying classified documents. It's what you do, or don't do, with the copies that count.
stopdiggin
(13,650 posts)part of the problem is that we already know that the 'classified' and 'clearance' system in the WH (apparently from early days onward) was completely shambolic. So - talking proper procedure is fairly useless, when it's clear that 'procedure' and protocol was routinely blown off. And what was found/discovered in Mar-a-lago - stands every likelihood of being a product of that heedless and capricious environment.
reACTIONary
(6,401 posts)... the observation that these documents were photocopied, which is being treated as a big revel, isn't very significant at all.
stopdiggin
(13,650 posts)Photocopying is relatively routine. Again, with proper protocol, but ... Trump WH. But we have a lot of people that are absolutely determined that this is about 'sale' of secrets. Evidence to that effect or no.
yardwork
(66,537 posts)I didn't follow all the details about the margins, but apparently there is concern that these copies were not made in a closed area, as indicated by evidence in the photo.
Details aside, I have no doubt that Trump took classified documents and showed them to people who didn't have security clearance. He's pretty much admitted that much in interviews. He's said that he thinks he had the right.
So copying them, and sharing copies of them, is not an unlikely next step.
kentuck
(113,698 posts)Could it be that if he showed them to others, even foreign leaders, he could say they were "de-classified", so it was all OK?
On the other hand, if he exposed secret documents to others, then he could be charged with espionage.
reACTIONary
(6,401 posts)... from a photograph no less, where the copies were made? And even if the cover sheets were photocopies, that doesn't mean the documents were. And even if they were photocopies, that doesn't have any significance in and of itself anyway.
These sorts of cover sheets aren't used on classified documents except to carry the document from one place to another. They are just office supplies, and if they are photo copies it is no big deal.
The REAL cover sheet, that is, the title page, has markings that include the unclassified title of the document, the highest classification of the material in the document, the classification authority, the date that the document will be declassified, and other such information. It isn't any particular color or size, it's just the first page or slide in the document or slide deck.
See page 3 of this document: https://www.archives.gov/files/isoo/training/marking-booklet-revision.pdf
Once again we have a post with unsubstantiated sensationalistic speculation.
yardwork
(66,537 posts)I'm not an expert so I won't try to explain, but there are interesting details in the article. I can't speak to their veracity.
reACTIONary
(6,401 posts)... it correctly identifies some features of the photographed cover sheet that suggest that at least the cover sheet was photocopied. That doesn't mean the document itself was photocopied. It certainly does not in any way identify when, by whom, or under what circumstance the copy was made.
And copying a classified document, in and of itself, is not prohibited and isn't of much significance.
Whoever wrote this article is more of a Dr. Watson than a Sherlock Homes.
Danascot
(5,011 posts)This is from October 2021. I wonder if it has anything to do with where Trumps classified documents ended up.
The message, in an unusual top-secret cable, said that the CIA’s counterintelligence mission center had looked at dozens of cases in the last several years involving foreign informants who had been killed, arrested or most likely compromised. Although brief, the cable laid out the specific number of agents executed by rival intelligence agencies — a closely held detail that counterintelligence officials typically do not share in such cables.
The cable highlighted the struggle the spy agency is having as it works to recruit spies around the world in difficult operating environments. In recent years, adversarial intelligence services in countries such as Russia, China, Iran and Pakistan have been hunting down the CIA’s sources and in some cases turning them into double agents.
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/captured-killed-or-compromised-cia-admits-to-losing-dozens-of-informants/
Goodheart
(5,760 posts)If those are photocopies, and I'm sure they are, where are the originals? And WHERE were they photocopied? In Washington or at Mar-a-Lago?
Aside from that, why the need to photocopy them in the first place if you believed that the originals were rightfully yours?
RexLipton
(98 posts)Nobody will know the difference!
https://www.etsy.com/listing/459688460/top-secret-classified-document-cover
Shipwack
(2,650 posts)What use would Trump have for fake cover letters?
Not to mention the chances of TFG actually paying for something...
FreeState
(10,701 posts)The colors are off and the text is not the same. The boarders are also not the same scale. Also why would he not get the ones that have the bleeds? See: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1391078290/3x-us-government-top-secret-document?ref=listing_page_ad_row-1&frs=1&plkey=07982cb5e4da74db5ca27ed37d5cad28f608c818%3A1391078290&listing_id=1391078290&listing_slug=3x-us-government-top-secret-document
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/us/politics/cia-informants-killed-captured.html
This OP of course reminds me of the bigger issue, the security leaks. The personal tragedies ofthe intelligence gatherers who've been tortured and died or disappeared into prisons aren't themselves the important part of that, of course, or the years of lost intelligence losing them means, but they are reminders of what's at stake for many of the other 8 billion people on the planet.
Regarding the white borders on the documents: They're very regular. I don't doubt for a split second that information from some of these documents became available to foreign powers, through active sharing and/or their espionage, and also that some would have been copied. But, could standard FBI practice place documents on larger sheets of paper whose edges can be handled?