Regarding those ultrasounds before abortions

[Duer 157099]

I spoke with an ultrasound technician about this, asking what she thought of the whole controversy.

First of all, she wasn't aware of any controversy so then I explained it and her response was: well, you have to do that procedure to verify the age of the fetus. And then she went on to explain how she has had patients who thought they were just a few weeks pregnant only to find out they were many months into the pregnancy.

Is the point that there is another way besides the transvaginal probe to do this? Otherwise, how do they determine the age?

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. It's hard to see a pregnancy early early on without a transvaginal probe. They used one

to confirm both of my miscarriages and both of my later pregnancies. I found them to be uncomfortable, and I am angry that they will be forced on women who do not want them.

[HockeyMom]

4. No, it isn't

If they can see a 5 week old embryo in a fallopian tube with an "old fashioned" sonogram 30 years ago, they STILL can. This is ONLY about HUMILIATING a woman.

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. Well, this is what my own OBGYN told me 15 years ago. Never heard differently

from anyone else.

Thanks for letting me know!

[gkhouston]

31. Could be that the ultrasound machines are less powerful now than they used to be.

There's been a lot of concern over the years about whether or not ultrasound might impact the fetus. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that lower-powered machines are used these days.

[seabeyond]

14. nope. not even two months along and doctor thought there was an issue. had jelly on belly

sonogram.

they were able to see the preg was fine, that was not the issue and how far along i was.

[GreenPartyVoter]

26. Not what I was told by my OBGYN, but then it occurs to me I was pretty

heavy and I am wondering if maybe the extra belly fat would have caused a problem for the other kind of sonogram?

[seabeyond]

30. i dont know.

for real, there was so little issue with me in the preg that it was all pretty simple. so, i know minimal. that was second preg and massive stomach pain. ended up being food poisoning. they where talking taking out appendix next, lol.

[lilhippie57]

15. "I am angry that they will be forced on women who do not want them."

I agree with you wholeheartedly. This is the latest rocket launched in the Republican war on women masquerading as draconian legislation! This bill is amended yet!-from an even worse amendment[trans vag]l.-Calmly discussing which type of ultrasound is less invasive totally misses the mark. Impoverished women will once again die in back alley rooms, at the hands of 'fake' doctors who botch it, maiming and in many cases killing them. Why is it okay to kill a young woman?
If you don't believe in abortions-don't have one. What is Armageddon for her may not be Armageddon for you. Her Nightmare is not your nightmare.It is not justice to only allow for a safe abortion under only one hellatious, armageddon-like scenario. [rape]. THat infers that women report ALL rapes(!) THis woman knows better than that fairy tale.
Next they'll then force the woman to report the rape before they believe her-Re-victimizing the victim. Shame Humiliation Guilt-

Keep their laws OFF women's Uterus's, Get OUT!= of our deeply personal and private lives. being faced with abortion is a woman's personal nightmare-abortions being legal makes women safer.

This is not a taxpayer issue as no abortions are paid for with federal dollars, i.e., medicaid. No late term abortions are legal without the woman's life at stake. So why this legislation at ALL?? I am so sick of the hidden agendas here. I fought this fight in the 70's for the safety of impoverished women across the country-only to have to fight -again!!?? -My point being how is this equitable legislation-How is this Justice? Only impoverished women will be forced to have this ultrasound.
Sure she won't be forced to look- big-deal-She can hear. Doctors can tell without ultrasound the approximate age of the fetus. Been doing it for a long long time.
Persons who would choose abortions as a form of birth control have a serious mental health problem which means they need mental health assistance; not a judge. So lets not bother beating that dead horse of a rebuttal.

[hedgehog]

2. My wild ass guess is that if the pregnancy

is past a certain point, this can be determined by the "jelly on the belly" method, or even by a simple physical exam.

On the other hand - I wonder if doctors use the transvaginal ultrasound in the course of an early abortion to ensure the surgery is proceeding properly.

[lilhippie57]

16. D&C

Early- up to 8 weeks-D&C procedure-no ultrasound needed as it is not surgery. Procedure is only minutes long. Also used with early miscarriages for the reproductive uterine HEALTH of the woman. Ultrasound is not aspirin, and shouldn't be considered the answer to a problem. It is a tool only.

[ohheckyeah]

3. And I call bullshit.

All five of my mother's children were born within a week of the due date and guess what? No ultrasound back then. Doctors knew how to figure this shit out.

[lilhippie57]

17. ohheckyeah And I call bullshit And I concur!

they need a 'like/agree' button on posts

[ohheckyeah]

36. Yes, we do need an agree or like button.

Doctors were able to determine, with a great degree of accuracy, a woman's due date for many years without ultrasounds. If they know the due date they know the age of the fetus.

[HockeyMom]

5. You know, I see we OLDER WOMEN

HAVE to get involved in all this, if for no other reason, than to DISPEL some of the myths going around that our younger sisters never heard of.

Just like so many people today think the "morning after pill" only came into existence a few years ago.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Many months pregnant

Shows by other methods.

I call bullshit.

[lapislzi]

12. Right on.

Not knowing you're pregnant, or how pregnant you are, is the exception.

Also, what does the "age" of the fetus have to do with it? Abortions are legal into the second trimester. And, if you're in your second tri, it will show on the regular ultrasound.

I'm not getting into the whole trimester and age of viability debate. It can't and shouldn't be legislated. Abortion is a matter between a woman and her doctor. If she wants or needs one, that is the person she should be talking to, regardless of the presumed "age" of her fetus.

[hedgehog]

28. The length of the pregnancy may determine the

types of procedures that can be used safely.

[Chorophyll]

7. To begin with, I can't believe she wasn't aware of the issue.

But I also call bullshit on her explanation. Roe v. Wade became law in 1972, long before this technology was available. There are other ways to figure out how far along a pregnancy is.

The transvaginal ultrasound laws? A bunch of sick politicians and clergy types are getting their jollies from it. Truly disgusting in every way.

[saras]

8. What did they do before them? It wasn't a problem then.

[gkhouston]

32. Measure the abdomen and calculate dates based on last menstrual period.

So, if you had regular cycles and your baby was growing at a typical rate, you got a good estimate. Otherwise, not so much.

[Mariana]

33. A doctor should be able to tell gestational age

quite accurately by doing a pelvic exam.

[abolugi]

9. A woman and her Doctor

should make that decision. Not a state legislator that is so embarrassed about it he cant even say "trans-vaginal"
A woman and her Doctor!!

These laws are all about humiliating and punishing a woman who is undergoing a perfectly legal procedure.

Where are any of the laws holding the fathers accountable for these pregnancies.?? They dont get pregnant by themselves.
Nope.. Its all about control.

[zbdent]

10. I'm expecting the following scenario ...

woman coming in for abortion, having spent the past week struggling with the news. Finally made up her mind. Scheduled with the facility.

Woman1: "I'm ready."

Receptionist: "I'm sorry, but the law says you can't have an abortion without an ultrasound, even though you're scheduled. And our technician is not available until X."

Woman1 has to leave.

Woman2, with three kids in tow (and drawing various "welfare" benefits that you wouldn't normally expect with a Catholic RWer such as she): "I'm here for my ultrasound!"

Receptionist: "Good to see you, Mrs. Y. Right this way. The Ultrasound will be in 5 minutes."

[handmade34]

11. well...

I just used to determine date of last ovulation (or relative period) and count forwards... it was done like that for hundreds of years

not you 157099, but generally people just keep getting more ignorant as times goes by

[ceile]

13. Bullshit.

I've only had one "probe", all others were sonograms.

[LynneSin]

18. I think this picture sums up the controversy (slightly NSFW)

It's one thing if I request this procedure to be done on me but to have it forced on me - well putting a large prodding object into my vagina without my persmission whether it's a penis or an ultrasound probe, I call that rape.

Basically the men creating these laws just want to add another level of humility to women. There is no need for any woman to have a transvaginal probe just to have an abortion.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

19. Lack of sex education might explain that (n/m)

[sinkingfeeling]

20. I never had any type of ultrasound when I had my son nor when

I had a 'D&C' type of abortion at 5 weeks into a pregnancy.

[marlakay]

21. I don't get this

When I had my kids in 79 & 81 no ultrasounds but they were able to tell me how far along I was and were correct with both kids. I have never had an abortion but since the 70's they have been legal and I have known people who had them and never heard of any of them having to have one.

This must be something new. Sounds to me like even if PP does it now they had to have a reason to add it. Laws? Money for the tests? What??? Maybe a legal thing to make sure it doesn't go past a certain time since some state laws say you can't after a certain time.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

22. 37 years ago I went through my

entire pregnancy without an ultrasound being used. Doctors and midwives palpate the uterus in a skillful way to find of the age of a fetus and it is very accurate.

Here's a link to the history of ultrasounds;
http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/history2.html

The trans-vaginal ultrasound is form of humiliation when used on women who do not require one.

[longship]

23. Can't believe a guy's the first to rec this

Responses alone worth it. Glad to kick this to the top.

[Jennicut]

24. I went through a lot of ultrasounds as I was had diabetes while pregnant.

And I went in to hear my baby's heartbeat every week. I never had to have a transvaginal probe. Ever. It seems unnecessary. My first ultrasound was before 10 weeks too. And this was only 6 years ago when I was having my second daughter.

[gkhouston]

27. If they were many months into a pregnancy, a doctor or midwife should have suspected that

from palpation alone. I went it with a suspected miscarriage three weeks after conception and the midwife used a transvaginal probe for that. Even with a transvaginal probe, it was too soon to detect a heartbeat, although one could be seen two weeks later.

Although we're outraged about the transvaginal probe, at some level the point is not how the ultrasound is done, but that women are being forced to pay for unnecessary procedures in an attempt to interfere with their medical care.

[hedgehog]

29. I want to thank those who replied on this thread to clarify in

what circumstances a physician (as opposed to legislator) may want the information from a transvaginal probe.

[Mariana]

34. Could be that the docs she works with

always order an ultrasound to determine the age of the fetus. That doesn't mean it's the ONLY way to do it. It can be found very accurately by doing a pelvic exam. I imagine the ultrasound procedure generates profit, and that could be the reason it's being used so frequently.

[uppityperson]

35. Of course there is another way besides a transvag probe to determine gestation.

A simple pelvic exam for one. The cervix changes early on, and the size of the uterus is a good way to tell. If the uterus is big enough, the fetus is large enough, the pregnancy is "many months along", you also can listen to the heartbeat with a fetascope, like a specialized stethescope.

We had a woman come in for an abortion and miscalculated her last menses. The pelvic showed a much larger uterus than would be expected, a month further along. She got referred elsewhere as was not within the timeline of the doctor's services.

[CreekDog]

37. I don't understand why someone posts a question and NEVER comes back

i mean in 12 hours. jeez.

especially a question that seeks to justify forced ultrasounds.

yeah, that's a FAIL.

unrec. if i could.

[Duer 157099]

40. I've been back to read the comments

I just didn't feel I had anything further to add to the discussion. The conversation I had with the ultrasound tech was exactly as described, but I cannot defend what she knew or didn't know or whether she completely misunderstood my question with regards to the transvaginal probe versus the abdominal probe.

I think she was just a relatively ignorant young woman who doesn't follow national politics like we do and was blissfully unaware in California of the laws in other states.

She claimed that she had a patient in for an ultrasound to confirm pregnancy who later delivered the same day (this was supposedly "yesterday" from the day I spoke with her). I have no idea if she just makes this stuff up or what.

[BlueIris]

38. It's forcing women to undergo the procedure that's wrong.

People trying to rationalize this abuse makes it worse. The idea that anyone would try to write off what the government is doing here with the "well, it's 'necessary' anyway, so why get upset?" is vile. VILE. I pity anyone who has to get healthcare from this ignorant fool.

[BlueIris]

39. Kick.

For an OP that showcases one of the worst comments about this nasty mess I've yet seen.

[Duer 157099]

41. Whatever. This was a real conversation with an actual ultrasound tech

as I personally was undergoing a transvaginal probe ultrasound exam. Sorry if I felt the conversation was relevant to the general discussion on the topic.

[cynatnite]

42. A bimanual exam can give a reasonable estimate as to how many weeks...

although, it is not as accurate as an ultrasound. A transabdominal exam is adequate to determine fetal age accurately. They will use a transvaginal exam for that if for some reason they are unable to determine it transabdominally.