Zimmerman (and police) claim Trayvon attacked him

[rurallib]

So what if he did?
Is it therefore legal and ok to harass and stalk an individual to provoke a response, possibly violent. Then to use that as an excuse to kill them?

[aikoaiko]

1. In my state, provoking a violent response would disqualify a SYG claim of self-defense.

FWIW.

[Lizzie Poppet]

14. Same here.

Oregon has long had relatively broad standards for when a person can use deadly force in self defense. However, it is also the case that a person who has been engaged in provocation of a conflict is not free from culpability should that conflict become violent. Basically, if you provoke a fight, then use deadly force to "defend yourself," you're probably going to be charged with murder, and very possibly first degree murder (since the provocation is likely to be viewed as premeditation).

IMO, Zimmerman gave up any right to be protected by Florida's SYG law because he initiated and sustained the conflict. If Martin did indeed start the physical violence, that changes nothing, as Zimmerman's behavior leading up to that point would have given Martin reasonable grounds to believe he was in danger (a belief which turned out to be tragically accurate).

[obamanut2012]

15. Here too

Brandishing is also a felony.

[Life Long Dem]

2. I'm not sure that's exactly what happened.

If he did, I would then look at who was crying for help, and if it was Trayvon, then I'd ask why Zimmerman felt threatened by a boy crying for help? So threatened by the boy that he needed to use deadly force?

[seabeyond]

3. exactly. i dont really care. the kid was being intimidate and fearful with following and stalking

and confrontation from a much larger man. a man with no authority that he did not know. he was doing nothing but walking home so there was no mindset there should be an issue.

i agree,

so what

[freshwest]

4. If someone was following me in a vehicle and being belligerent, I'd fight if he tried to touch me.

If the person on the other end of the cellphone's testimony is to be believed, Zimmerman reached for him and Martin was afraid for his own life. Thus anything after that was self-defense.

Zimmerman didn't have to get within swatting distance. If I had a vehicle and was afraid for myself, I'd stay inside it. That's common sense. This may have gotten lost in a testosterone induced haze by these two, but logic dictates that the man with a gun has the balance of power. Not only that, he had a vehicle, another empowering device.

Martin was like a deer in the headlights and even a deer will fight back if it is cornered. The balance of power, from beginning to end, was in Zimmerman's hands and nothing will erase that.

A person acting in self-defense does not go on the offense. Their claim is BS.

[Aerows]

9. He tried to get away from Zimmerman

If some dude kept following me in a car, and I ran to get away from him and then he exited his vehicle to chase me? I'd assume I was about to get robbed, raped, kidnapped or killed. You bet your ass I'd fight back with everything in me.

I see no reason why Trayvon shouldn't have responded the same.

The second Zimmerman exited his vehicle and pursued Trayvon, he became the aggressor.

[freshwest]

12. +1,000

[Rex]

16. THAT is it right there!!!

"The second Zimmerman exited his vehicle and pursued Trayvon, he became the aggressor."

The police have a lot of questions to answer imo to the FBI.

[aquart]

32. Yeah, well. When was he NOT the aggressor?

[Aerows]

38. I don't see anyone arguing that Zimmerman wasn't the aggressor

I also don't see any way to twist that to get offended that someone said he was. Well, RW news media might be, but that isn't anyone here, and we aren't arguing that at all.

[Rex]

44. I quoted you...why ask me?

That was strange.

EDIT - well maybe not strange if he missed your post above mine. NM.

[Rex]

43. Why are you asking me when I quoted someone?

Strange. I would figure you would ask them.

[moriah]

25. Agreed 100%.

A private citizen doesn't have the right to detain me.

And the fact that the confrontation ended behind buildings suggests Zimmerman continued pursuit, along with the statements on the 911 call at the end of it that he wanted the police to call him when they got there -- indicating he *wasn't* planning on going back to his truck.

[Johonny]

13. As so many people point out the stand your ground law

applies equally to the two. You could argue either one was justified attacking the other because they were threaten. The law is pointless, dangerous and basically makes it so the only way to guarantee your safety is to shoot first. If you don't then the living guy gets to control the story to the police. I know enough information to know the law is terrible, pointless and harmful to society. Just as its opponents predicted when it was passed.

[seabeyond]

22. i said on another thread, this law is basically saying, ALL arm yourself even the kids

otherwise on this "stand your ground" law, there is an absolute disadvantage NOT having a gun

[moriah]

26. Actually, Trayvon would have had the same rights under the old law.

Zimmerman, being the aggressor, should have none other either old or new law.

[Aerows]

39. It is

And nobody with a sound mine denies it. I'm 5'3" and weigh 115 on a good day. I don't have a husband, I don't have sons.

I have me.

[Jim__]

5. And the evidence of the attack will be the word of the police and Zimmerman.

How could anybody question that?

[auburngrad82]

6. From the few witnesses that have come forward I'll take a stab at what may have happened

Zimmerman ran the kid down (according to Trayvon's girlfriend Trayvon ran from Zimmerman). Trayvon put up a fight when Zimmerman grabbed him. Zimmerman knocked Trayvon down (at least one witness said there was a guy on the ground screaming and then a gunshot and the screaming stopped). So you have a man who outweighs you by 100 pounds chasing you and he has a gun! I'd be terrified . I can't imagine what was going through Trayvon's mind. If I were Trayvon I would have taken a swing at the attacker, and that could explain why Zimmerman "had blood on his face". Then Zimmerman got pissed and killed the kid.

I hope they can figure this crap out. The police either dropped the ball on gathering evidence or covered it up. I'd like to see Zimmerman in prison, general population preferably. I don't think he'd like it there.

[lacrew]

8. Well I'll take a stab at it

First of all, Zimmerman is a flake. If you go to the link I posted on this thread, you can see his 911 history. He called 911 for potholes, kids playing in the street, garage door open, you name it. I'm amazed he was never admonished for calling 911, for non-emergency matters...but he did, and often.

However, Zimmerman's paranoia was validated, by a high incidence of burgulary in his area...reports on this are also on the link. Just two weeks prior, a neighbor had a screen removed, and things stolen. So, I can understand the backdrop - Zimmerman, zealot that he was, was somewhat justified in being concerned over new faces in the community.

Ok, so he's out and about, and he sees somebody he doesn't recognize. A normal person, if he genuinelyu felt he had spotted somebody up to no good, would call the police (not 911), and report it/ask if they would send a marked car through the area. Zimmerman's reaction - calling 911?!? - was not normal. And, if you listed to the 911 call, its clear he gets out of his vehicle, and follows Martin on foot. Again, not the actions of a typical person. He's a flake. That much is clear.

In the latter part of his 911 call, he states that he 'can't find' Martin...asks for the police to come. He never gives his location, and asks for the police to call him, when they get there - implying that he is still on the move, looking for Martin.

Then the call ends...and shortly after that, several 911 calls come in, describing 'wrestling', cries for help, and a gunshot. You can hear the cries, and the gunshot in the background.

So, somehow, the two had found each other, the fight happened, and Zimmerman ended it with a gunshot. Martin's girlfriend reported hearing hearng "What are you following me for" by Martin, and "What are you doing around here" from Zimmerman. So, it seems that neither party 'jumped' the other by complete surprise...they were having an argument.

I don't think we will ever know who started the actual physical fight. And there is some question as to who was losing the fight. Martin's father initially did not identify the voice crying for help as his son's...but later changed his statement. Zimmerman's initial statements to police were that he was the one crying for help. I tend to believe that it was Zimmerman crying for help...i.e., he was losing the fight. He was also given medical aid for being a little bloodied up...and there was wet grass on his back. I have seen no reports indicating whether or not Martin was bloodied up. The report did state that he was found face down...indicating he was either standing up, or on top of Zimmerman, when shot.

So, we have an over-active 911 junkie, who identifies a 'suspicious person', which can be forgiven, given the crime rate in his area...but then foolishly gets out of his vehicle and follows the person. They end up getting in an argument...then a fight...a fight he is probably losing. He pulls out a gun and kills the person.

Its a tragedy, and it certainly never had to happen. We know that Zimmerman created the bad situation, for sure. Sadly, we will never know exactly how it became a violent encounter. Oddly, my interpretation of the Stand Your Ground law is that Martin was legally justified in standing and fighting Zimmerman...where in most states, if he felt threatened with severe injury or death, he would be expected to run away. That's a slightly different angle on how SYG affects this case....because all indications are that Zimmerman was on the ground and unable to run, rendering SYG moot, as far as he is concerned.

Taking the emotion out of it, what would Zimmerman be charged with? Depending on how the building envelopes are granted in this community, possibly trespassing. Minor. Maybe some kind of manslaughter...but you've still got to give the jury something that contradicts Zimmerman's story. The only hole I can see is his statement that he got out of his truck to better read a street sign, and was jumped by Martin. That is unlikely, since he lived in the neighborhood (and I read the signs from inside my car personally)...and, per the girlfriend's statement, he actually spoke to Martin (not 'jumped'). Also, the 911 calls place this in a backyard, so just how far did he have to walk to read this street sign? So, that statement does not seem very credible...I don't know if its enough to get him convicted of anything though. I'll let the lawyers answer that one.

[Aerows]

19. Zimmerman exited his vehicle

Where he was safe. He also possessed a weapon. He outweighed Trayvon by 120 lbs. If Trayvon had been a woman that was terrified of being raped, would it change your views if Zimmerman pursued her to the point of getting out of his vehicle to chase her down?

Zimmerman was safe while in his truck, and held all of the cards. He decided to play Rambo, and ended up killing a young man. I'm sure he probably thinks it is an accident now, but it wasn't an accident by a long shot. He CHOSE to play neighborhood police, and showed exactly why civilians aren't qualified to take on the task of "neighborhood militia". Because they shoot first and ask questions later.

Moral to the story: If you act like a Law Enforcement official, you need to have the training, understanding and education of a Law Enforcement official, which Zimmerman did not. He appointed himself judge, jury and executioner for a young man carrying iced tea, skittles and the misfortune of wearing a hoodie in the area while visiting his father.

Anyone that doesn't see the degradation of law, order and human rights in that situation needs to sit down and let people that don't believe firearm training is the sole education of Law Enforcement officials do their work.

[lacrew]

45. I don't have any views

"would it change your views"

All I did is try to piece together what happened, based on information available at this time.

I have no 'view' on the situation.

I'm skeptical you read the entire post, quite frankly.

I'm not defending Zimmerman. He's an idiot. But, I'm not going to project some pre-meditated malice on him either. None of the currently known facts support that.

I have a prediction. Its not necessarily what people want to hear, but its what I think will actually happen.

Zimmerman will get charged with some sort of endangerment or involuntary manslaughter (not murder), and sentenced to around 5 years in prison.

Martin's family will successfully sue Zimmerman, and the HOA. They will not sue the city.

Time will tell if I'm right.

[Aerows]

47. You should have views, IMHO

But I'm not going to tell you what they are.

I HAVE views, and I'm going to express them.

I still respect your right to be impartial in this situation.

And you are probably correct in your assessment. Sad all the way around.

[sabrina 1]

37. From what I understood from the reports, he was out of his vehicle when he was on the phone

with the police. Don't know if he ever got back into it. But 13 minutes passed from the time of his call and the time Trayvon was pronounced dead, which seems to have been approx. 4 minutes after the shooting.

He should not have approached him at all. It's very doubtful, especially considering what his girlfriend said, that Trayvon was looking to confront him. He was trying to get away from him.

She reported hearing him say 'why are you following me'. That means that while Trayvon was on the phone, 'walking quickly' to try to get away from him, Zimmerman approached him. She says his head phones were knocked off and the call ended.

Her phone records should establish the time of the confrontation. That would tell us how long they were face to face before Trayvon was shot.

The police arrived 60 seconds after the shooting. It took about 3 to 4 minutes before he was pronounced dead. If all these times are correct, (I got them from the police reports) then it looks like a period of about 9 minutes elapsed between Zimmerman's call to the police and the shooting.


The tragic thing is if the police had arrived just one minute earlier, they could have stopped the shooting. Zimmerman knew they were on their way. There is simply no excuse at all for him having approached him and even if they were in a scuffle, knowing the police were on their way, absolutely no reason to shoot him.

[lacrew]

41. Timeline

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/What-happened-the-night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-death/-/1637132/9652138/-/pygj16z/-/index.html

Zimmerman call starts: 7:09:34

Zimmerman call ends: 7:14

First witness 911 call: 7:16:11

Deadly shot fired: 7:17:11

So the gap in time between when he hung up, and the fight started, is 2-3 minutes.

[sabrina 1]

42. Thank you, and the police arrived one minute after the shooting. So

he could not wait 5 minutes. I didn't realize the phone call was that long. Which means he knew they were on their way.

Looks like he never got back in his car.

[lacrew]

7. Here are the police reports and 911 calls

For what its worth....and there has been some question as to whether or not the police report was ammended later...but the 911 calls should be accurate.

http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html

[mfcorey1]

10. Even if that were true, he was simply standing his ground from a stalker. Next

argument.

[Bandit]

11. Yes he chased the vehicle down and dragged Zimmerman out of it and beat the shit

out of him. It was his plan all evening after being all jacked up on sugar.. Skittles and Iced Tea....Damn Drugs anyway.. I wonder why they tested Martin for drugs but not Zimmerman anyway..

[auburngrad82]

17. The sugar high explains why he could beat the crap out of an armed man who outweighed him

by 100 pounds.

That must be what happened.

[slackmaster]

23. The Dan White "Twinkie" defense

[X_Digger]

18. Florida law doesn't support Zimmerman's claim

It has a specific section that says you don't get to use this defense is you are the aggressor.

[Lilyeye]

20. According to the GF,

the kid was worried and was wondering why Zimmerman was following him. Zimmerman approached him in a aggressive manner instead of saying "I am with the neighborhood watch...who are you?" That would have made a world of difference. If we can believe the GF (and I do because Zimmerman and the police haven't been shown to be trustworthy) than Trayvon was defending himself.

[reality time]

21. sweet innocent Trayvon

After 11 recent burglaries, George Zimmerman noticed a kid who fit the description of someone casing a house, with similar characteristics to the suspected burglar. When noticing that Zimmerman had seen him, Martin began running. Zimmerman got into his vehicle to follow him and call the police in case a break in had already occured.

After searching to no avail, Zimmerman left the confines of his vehicle. Upon seeing Zimmerman Trayvon began assaulting him as Zimmerman was walking back to his vehicle. An eyewitness noticed Martin on top of Zimmerman smashing his head against the ground, punching him and Zimmerman yelling for help. He then called the police.

When he returned after hearing a loud sound he found Zimmerman still laying on the ground bleeding and Martin laying next to him deceased. The police found that Zimmerman had grass stains down his back and legs, a bloody nose and face, and blood streaming from a wound on the back of his head as well.

[OKNancy]

24. I've read the claim that an eyewitness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman

but only on right wing nut sites... proof from a reputable source would be expected.
Of course I doubt you will be able to post it... for various reasons

[The Magistrate]

31. Thank You For Taking care Of This, Ma'am

I had sent a note to Mr. Skinner myself a few minutes ago when a jury fumbled the alert....

[Lilyeye]

34. These trolls are really coming out in full force.

I don't like accusing people of being trolls, but so many of these morons have under 10 post and joined yesterday or today. Too obvious.

[OKNancy]

36. I didn't explain

the alert clearly enough. I did a google search and the only place where I found any reference to "eyewitness saw Martin was on top of him" was on right wing sites like Hannity. It's like some meme going around on the right-wing sites.

We discussed it in the MIRT forum and we agreed on the nuke.

[renate]

27. I wonder whether they checked the gun for traces of Zimmerman's own blood

I wouldn't be surprised if he whacked himself in the face with his gun to make it look like there'd been a fight, and it'd have been easy enough to deliberately put grass stains on his clothes and to whack the back of his head on the pavement. (It's hard to imagine a scenario in which Trayvon wounded the back of Zimmerman's head without a weapon, so it must have been the pavement, either on purpose to try to cover his tracks or from falling backwards in a fight that, from the phone calls, I don't believe ever happened.)

Edited to say: My bad. I hadn't heard about the tape Mother Jones has (the 14-minute one), saying that there was a fight.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

[itsrobert]

28. Where are you getting your information from?

I must have overlooked all that. Please provide a link.

[WheelWalker]

29. Cite your source, please.

[Bluerthanblue]

30. when did Trayvon run?

were you there? Were you one of the investigating officers? Eye witnesses have said that Zimmerman was on top of Martin. Lets see pictures of Mr.Zimmermans injuries. Let's see results of his blood alcohol and drug tests. Let's allow HIM to have the trial he chose to deny a 17yr old whose 'crime' was to be walking while black and male, in this gated Florida 'community' where he was visiting relatives.

WTF?

If indeed Zimmerman acted within the law, why shouldn't a court of law prove that? Why shouldn't he have been investigated? Hell, even actual police officers are subject to investigation and not allowed to remain on active duty after a fatal shooting.

This case is a sad example of everything that is wrong with our materialistic, egocentric, bigoted, self-righteous society.

[aquart]

33. Welcome to DU.

May your brief stay be a happy one.

[MelissaB]

35. Posting privileges revoked

Isn't that a shame?

[Aerows]

40. Sweet Innocent Zimmerman

Followed him in his vehicle, where there was no bodily harm taking place. Asked him questions, and the 17 year old man was rightfully creeped out, because he didn't know if this dude was a sex offender. He ran.

Zimmerman exited the truck with a firearm and ran after the young boy. The young boy still doesn't know why the hell he is following him and is scared he's going to kidnap, rob, rape, or kill him.

Young boy fights back, and is shot.

I'm not sure how you spin that bullshit as being "justified".

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. I need a creative fiction writer

Are you available?

(No 911 tapes corroborates this even a little)

[ecstatic]

46. By their logic, a rapist is justified in killing his would-be victim if she fights back

How ridiculous does that sound!?

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Industrial sized CYA

They know the FBI gets involved, they are in trouble.