WTF Is Going On At Bundy Ranch? Video of Dangerous Standoff With Authorities. Snipers too!

[Skip Intro]

I've only seen the odd story here and there about some showdown with either Federal or State agents and some people on a ranch that evidently has been in their family for generations. The authorities are moving against the ranchers, and are currently seizing their cattle. There are reports and pictures of snipers around the ranch and large numbers of armed agents in all directions and something about a "First Amendment area." I haven't really looked into the story that much, so I could be a little off on some of that. Today on facebook, though, I came across this (let it play, things escalate):

And now I'm wondering what the hell is going on out there.

Anybody?

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. Illegal grazing on Federal lands

the Bureau of Land Management forbids grazing of cattle on public lands in the area in part because it's the habitat of an endangered desert tortoise; Mr Bundy seems to think he can do whatever he wants regardless, so Federal agents are seizing his cattle for his continued flagrant breaches of the law.

[yeoman6987]

62. Haven't they been grazing on the land for 200 years?

I swear I heard that. Is America that hard up that one piece of land that is not being paid really that big a deal? With so many problems going on this seems rather small in the big world that we have.

[Spider Jerusalem]

72. No-one has been doing anything there for 200 years.

And it doesn't matter if his grandfather was able to graze there. It's public land which is controlled by the Bureau of Land Management. They can revoke any permissions for grazing. And they have done, in part because of concerns over the habitat of an endangered species. Which is probably more important than some yahoo's cattle.

[jwirr]

110. So if Bundy gets to take over that public land what is stopping my family (Native Americans) from

taking any public lands we think should be called ours? Where do you propose these take overs stop? And do they pay the US citizens for their interest in these public lands? How much? They will not even pay the rent for what they are already using.

[oneofthe99]

2. I 'm pretty sure it has to do with grazing rights for his cattle

Something about using government land and claiming it was in his family and they always used it or something to that effect.

From what I gather it's mostly just scrub land .

[Skip Intro]

4. There should be some clear documentation of who owns the land. Doesn't make sense to me.

[Gravitycollapse]

7. It's public land to which his permit to graze was revoked 21 years ago, FWIU.

[oneofthe99]

9. Yup , I remember reading that , he was allowed before

Nevada can be tough to be a rancher unless you have deep pockets to buy prime land with water
because 85% of Nevada land is owned by the federal government

[oneofthe99]

11. Hey I just wanted to tell you at first I read your thread title quickly and I

thought you wrote WTF is going on at the Bunny Ranch

[Skip Intro]

15. Well, now I want to know that too...

[randome]

32. There's clear documentation of who owns the Gaze Strip, too! The Bible!

I'm sure Bundy has a tattoo or something to prove his claim.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Warpy]

54. It is scrub land and it takes quite a lot of it to support one cow

which is why smaller ranchers need to graze their cattle on BLM land, especially in Nevada where the BLM is the biggest landowner.

Mr. Bundy just doesn't think he needs to pay for the privilege.

Then again, he's been a scofflaw for decades and one has to wonder why it's being enforced now instead of 15 years or so ago.

Maybe it's just the extreme drought this year. The land just won't support any of those cows at all.

[jwirr]

111. The point about the drought is very good. A lot of SW ranchers are selling their cattle because the

land will not support them.

[2naSalit]

3. And they finally took some action

after some 20 years of his defiance. About f'ing time.

Cleaning up some remnants of the Sagebrush Rebellion.

A lot of info here:

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/07/blm-makes-progress-rounding-up-bundys-trespass-cattle/

[Gravitycollapse]

5. What he's been doing is blatantly illegal. But the police presence seems over the top.

Maybe there's more to this case than meets the eye.

[2naSalit]

14. Try reading this...

Dr. Ralph Maughan has been following this story for the twenty years it has been going on...

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/07/blm-makes-progress-rounding-up-bundys-trespass-cattle/

[Gravitycollapse]

17. That's basically what I figured. He's been making threats.

[2naSalit]

21. he's been making threats

for a very long time. It's about time he was ousted. All the protection is because he wouldn't comply peaceably. But there has been a place for protesters to have their say so it's not like he hasn't been given more than enough rope all these years. There are some interesting points made in the comments on that site too. Some, who don't identify their backgrounds are long-term biologists and politicos, besides Dr. Maughan, who have been watching and commenting to agencies about this guy for many years... I know a couple of them and I'm glad they joined the conversation.

Looks like a major, long-time player in the Sagebrush Rebellion has met his match and the gig is up, finanlly.

[beevul]

23. Yeah, I'm not so happy about those.

" But there has been a place for protesters to have their say..."



I didn't buy the idea when * was president, and I don't buy into it now.

[2naSalit]

30. Well

I don't agree with those in most settings but in this case I suspect it was the best thing to do given the violent threats prior to the action... not exactly an election venue or an event intended to be open to the public which is why I mentioned it at all. Out in a location like that, best to contain the possible hostiles.

In general, I agree with you. It isn't like these folks haven't had their say for twenty years and got quite a bit of press attention during that time. I wish the authorities would have done this well over a decade ago.

[Skip Intro]

52. "First Amendment Zones" are the "best thing to do." What?

[tkmorris]

59. Yeah...no

The "first amendment zone" stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific, with it's northern and southern borders being Canada and Mexico respectively. If you suspect "hostiles" you arrest them when they break the law and leave em alone until they do. Corralling people because you don't like what they are saying is a fucking TERRIBLE precedent.

[2naSalit]

151. Not my point

What I meant by containing them is to keep control of a situation that is, apparently, about to get out of hand due to RWNJs showing up. It's a vast landscape out there and things could get far worse than a "ruby Ridge" scenario in a hurry once you have armed whackos all over the back country... which is what this place is. That's all I was trying to imply and nothing more.

I've seen this stuff up close and personal and I have been out in that part of the desert several times, unless you've seen it and are remotely familiar with the situation and potential problems we don't want to see in our country then I am going to hope that you just are unaware of how quickly this could escalate and why the authorities made such a consideration.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion but there are some out in this part of the continent who can't speak if their voice doesn't contain bullets and a hair-trigger. Being prepared for insane and unreasonable responses is not an error in my judgement. I don't care for them at political events and the like but in this case, I'm not objecting because I know what the feds are up against on this one.

[LeftyMom]

6. Wow, you must read some crazy wingnut sources if thats what you picked up.

Amazingly enough you can't help yourself to federal land for free, which is the real story.

[Gravitycollapse]

8. Yeah, I noticed this is making the rounds at infowars.

Which is a tell of the kind of media forces behind its popularity.

Although, the police presence does seem to be a tad over the top even given the situation. Maybe the rancher has been making threats or something.

[orleans]

16. yep. sounds like the feds & atf are gonna have to go in there

and kill everybody and blow the whole place up just like they've done before

[Gravitycollapse]

19. I would not put that outside the realm of possibility. Although, as with the Branch Davidians...

Last edited Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:17 PM - Edit history (1)

there is the potential for violence from the target of the state. That was never really the issue in Waco. What was the issue was how the state managed to completely and totally fuck everything up.

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. that was Branch Davidians....

[Gravitycollapse]

153. Sorry that was a typo.

Or, I suppose, a slip of the pen.

[yeoman6987]

64. I am not particularly sure that Julio (?) Gonzalez was handled right either.

[hedgehog]

85. "target of the state"? You mean like every other person ever arrested for breaking the law?

[Downtown Hound]

76. Well, given that militias everywhere are using this story as an excuse to start a civil war

and are threatening to show up by the thousands to violently defend this man's illegal activities, I'd say their response has been rather restrained.

[Skip Intro]

12. Friends, co-workers, family - I get stuff.

As I said in the OP, I don't know the details of this, but I read via a link upthread the argument that the land was bought by the family decades ago. I dunno. That's why I asked. Plus, I thought the vid was shareworthy.

Am I free to go now?

[jberryhill]

78. No. He's in direct violation of a court order

The place to challenge that is in court.

[Egnever]

10. Bunch of wingnuts are fighting with cops

over a guys refusal to remove his cattle from BLM land..



This guy has lost in court on this many times now. The BLM is finally doing something about it after years of his flagrant disregard for the law. The nutters are up in arms about big gubment.

edit for more info

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo/blm_programs/more/trespass_cattle/media_information/trespass_cattle_statement0.html

In addition to two court orders issued by two federal judges within the past year ordering Mr. Bundy to remove his trespass cattle from public lands, BLM and NPS have issued a Notice of Intent to Impound and BLM issued a Trespass Notice and Order to Remove. Neither the Court Orders nor agency communications have gained the voluntary removal of the trespass cattle from federal lands.
Mr. Bundy owes the federal government, and therefore the American people, more than $1 million in fees associated with cattle grazing in trespass.

Aerial cattle counts were conducted April 1-3 and a total of 908 cattle were counted spread across 1,200 square miles. Mr. Bundy’s original grazing permit, which was canceled in 1993 because he stopped paying fees, authorized him to graze 152 cattle on 250 square miles.

We started removing trespass cattle from Federal lands in Southern Nevada on lands managed by BLM and the National Park Service April 5. As of last night, 134 head of trespass cattle were impounded. The operation continues today and a total headcount will be released online at 7:30 p.m.

Mr. Bundy has made a number of inflammatory statements. Stating he will do “whatever it takes” and that his response to the impound is “going to be more physical.” He has also described this operation as a “range war.”

[Skip Intro]

13. Didn't realize it had been through the courts. That makes a big difference. n/t

[Egnever]

18. It's been ongoing for years now

The BLM is finally putting its foot down. The people in that video are nutjobs that think somehow the gubment is stealing from this guy, no idea what started the tussle in the video but my guess is the nutters got a little crazy.

I added more info to the post above.

[snappyturtle]

38. Bundy is the last rancher standing. Funny, he has no rights but if one has

enough money, one can buy public land to build a solar installation on....for pennies on the dollar. It's not about the turtles either as the BLM is killing many....for 'lack of funds' to keep it's turtle conservation center open. Another funny point is that the BLM is an outgrowth of the Department of Grazing within the Department of Interior which later sprouted to become the BLM.

About the closing of the conservation center for turtles:

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/25/desert-tortoise_n_3813133.html

snip....

Back at the conservation center, a large refrigerator labeled "carcass freezer" hummed in the desert sun as scientists examined the facility's 1,400 inhabitants to find those hearty enough to release into the wild. Officials expect to euthanize more than half the animals in the coming months in preparation for closure at the end of 2014.

The desert tortoise is a survivor that has toddled around the Southwest for 200 million years. But ecologists say the loss of the conservation center represents a harmful blow in southern Nevada for an animal that has held onto some unfortunate evolutionary quirks that impede its coexistence with strip malls, new homes and solar plants.

snip...

[Egnever]

47. Yea cause his refusal to pay his fees had nothing to do with it.

[snappyturtle]

84. It isn't about the fees either. I spent a lot of time yesterday afternoon

reading about the BLM and the turtle situation. I searched Clark County's website too. I read the Federal Register, etc. Believe me, the government wants the land for other purposes,, purposes not friendly to the turtles or ranchers but conducive to land developers and builders...and a Chinese company to build a solar plant. Enter Rory Reid....Sen. Reid's son and attorney. It's all quite interesting, to say the least, if you poke around a bit.

Bundy paid fees tor YEARS. He quit paying when he realized the BLM was effectively using the money to push him off the land. It worked on the other ranchers. He had purchased water and forage rights. If the fees are so important, why has the government waited almost twenty years to 'evict' Bundy? That's what led me to reading more.

Clark County is not alone in these practices. There's a county east of LA where land owners are being squeezed off their properties, not delinquent in taxes, fees or hostile to turtles. Could it be Agenda 21?
Bundy is taking a stand and I think we should ask, why? imho

[hedgehog]

87. "Agenda 21"? You say that like that's a bad thing -

Agenda 21 is a non-binding, voluntarily implemented action plan of the United Nations with regard to sustainable development

Agenda 21 is a 300-page document divided into 40 chapters that have been grouped into 4 sections:

Section I: Social and Economic Dimensions is directed toward combatting poverty, especially in developing countries, changing consumption patterns, promoting health, achieving a more sustainable population, and sustainable settlement in decision making.

Section II: Conservation and Management of Resources for Development Includes atmospheric protection, combating deforestation, protecting fragile environments, conservation of biological diversity (biodiversity), control of pollution and the management of biotechnology, and radioactive wastes.

Section III: Strengthening the Role of Major Groups includes the roles of children and youth, women, NGOs, local authorities, business and industry, and workers; and strengthening the role of indigenous peoples, their communities, and farmers.

Section IV: Means of Implementation: implementation includes science, technology transfer, education, international institutions and financial mechanisms.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_21

[snappyturtle]

105. Sounds perfect, I know. Watch the best explanation of Agenda 21:

(You could skip the first twenty minutes...altho it's a good history of how Agenda 21 has descended upon us.)
------------------------
Example:

Its not the principles of Agenda 21 its the way those have been implemented and co-mingled with politics and corporations. Communities must be very careful in planning their 'sustainable' lives while maintaining some semblance of personal freedoms.

[hedgehog]

117. I followed your link to the source -

Pre-Packaged News

They have other videos that are straight up clips from Fox News

and some great stuff about aerosols!


Hey - even better - the other link also has these:

Derek Prince: The Salvation of Israel and the name of the Messiah

David Wilkerson: There will be Race Riots after the Economic Crash

Sunday Worship is not Biblical Part1

Obama says he is God, mocks the Bible, and supports Homosexuals (Mirror)

[snappyturtle]

121. Source? This is ONE youtube channel....this video is other places too.

Thanks for helping to dumb down America.

[maddezmom]

123. RW lunatics on YouTube seem to be dumbing down America

[snappyturtle]

131. Its easy to knock down the messenger or cognitive dissonance has set in.

I liked the videos because the first explained and documented all the way through, numerous times, the roots of Agenda 21. It also pointed out good aspects of Agenda 21 if, used responsibly, but that is not always done. The presenter told the audience to check his info out and to make up their minds. I thought it very well balanced.

The second video is interesting. It's only nine minutes long....well worth a listen.

I just don't want to hear, down the road, that folks are losing property rights and freedom. As long as we keep our backs bristled to everything the other side says the longer we perpetuate the turmoil. I saw no RW lunacy in either video....but one would have to listen to them to construct an opinion or specific disagreement other than the typical slap down. Maybe some of the people don't use fancy words but I find them refreshingly honest (2nd video).

[maddezmom]

137. What pings my radar are the people who are defending this asshat

Ya know like Hannity, Koch Bros, assorted kooky sites including Alex Jones/infowars and Michael Brian Vanderboegh, etc. YMMV.

[jwirr]

125. Thank you.

[MohRokTah]

91. Baloney, it's about a trespassing welfare king refusing to obey the law.

The China argument is a LIE.

There have been zero hearings about fracking on the land, so that's more made up nonsense.

It is about a thief having to own up for his thievery.

The cattle will be auctioned off and the money will go back to the US Treasury and the matter will be closed.

[Sunlei]

94. Clark county is controlled by their 'unincorporated Clark County' casino companies.

They have always been very good buddies with their DOI/BLM Gov. officials who are supposed to 'manage our public lands.' Nevada is about 80% public land, our land, Americas land.

America should see a great revenue income from taxes/fees- on mining, fracking, Gambling, Nevada's legal prostitution. But we don't as the only 'fees' the Feds seem to collect are the super-low grazing fee from the one or two ranches left in the county.

The big money businesses seem to cluster on 'unincorporated land & private owned land' and seem to somehow avoid paying much federal taxes. Yet the Federal Gov. pays for all infrastructure.

A holdout state for the old school Federal DOI 'good old boys' and their close Corp. buddies. Family and friends for decades many of them.

If this rancher didn't manage to get out a couple cell phone videos..no one would have even known about this issue. Those people holding cell phones recording is exactly why the Feds hammered them. For decades this part of our Federal gov. has hammered every person who speaks out against Corp. interests.

[snappyturtle]

102. Thank you. nt

[CanonRay]

96. Bundy leased the land for years, and now thinks he owns it

and the Feds have no rights to it. So he won't pay. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. The feds have to go through a long process and ultimately the courts to seize his cattle and remove them, where they will cared for until he pays the bill, or if he still won't they will be sold off for the fees. This happened many, many times during the "Sagebrush rebellion" in the 70's. Some of these RW ranchers won't even let the feds (Forest service, BLM) grade the roads. The RW nut job media is going to have a feast with this, or course, but it's just a process because this guy won't recognize that BLM land belongs to the people. The fees, by the way, are insanely low by private land standards.

If you scratch this Bundy guy, you'll likely find a RW tea party/militia guy.

[Paladin]

99. It's still federal land, and Bundy owes more than 20 years of grazing fees on it.

You can't acquire title to lands from the government via adverse possession, no matter how many years you claim. I'm betting that attorneys have advised Bundy of that, but he's just ignoring it. Freeloading old coot.

[snappyturtle]

103. What took the government (BLM) so long? 20 years! The time is right for putting

the land to its 'best use' is my guess. Time will tell.

[jwirr]

130. Never too late. Most of the 20 years were controlled by rw politicians.

[Sunlei]

107. even if he is a RW rancher /w a sense of entitlement to our public lands..He still has the right to

observe, document, photograph & video the Federal BLM funded Gov. round-up.

[jwirr]

120. And of course this has nothing to do with the drought conditions in both areas? By the way please

document your findings about the solar farm and Rory Reid. IMO I would rather have a solar plant on that publically owned land than some guys 900 cows.

[Skip Intro]

50. More to the story. Thanks. n/t

[Renew Deal]

26. Thanks for the link

And thanks for SkipIntro for bringing this to light. I didn't know this was happening.

[hatrack]

29. 1993? Sheesh, good thing BLM has been right on top of this . . .

Bet Mr. Bundy thinks Claude Dallas was "heroic", too.

[jwirr]

112. Thank you. The aerial cattle count explains what the rw are talking about helicopters being used

to herd the cattle - it is so funny that I cannot believe I didn't see that before. This type of cattle count is not unusual.

[Blue_In_AK]

146. I don't know a lot about this,

but I read this morning on FB that the Kochs are backing Bundy. Anything to make the government look bad.

[gerogie2]

20. He is a soverign citizen..

he thinks he can graze federal lands without paying. Over the years he was made veiled threats while having a gun in a holster.

[2naSalit]

22. Oh he made more than veiled threats

over two decades now. Some years he's more mellow and others he's been over the top and spilling over it. been watching this since it started back in '93.

[Leith]

34. Yes, Sovereign Citizen Nutjob

Those guys are bad news.

Cliven Bundy is associated with militias (several militia people have come to support him), the Sovereign Citizen movement, and he seems belligerent as hell. Basically, they refuse to recognize or acknowledge the federal government and they certainly won't follow federal laws unless they are convenient for them. They are the extreme of the extreme.

Bundy has lost 2 (federal) court cases over grazing rights. He stopped paying the fees in 1993 saying that since his family has been ranching since the 1800s, he doesn't have to pay. Besides, he claims that only the state of Nevada has the right to charge such fees. Right.

I live in Las Vegas and this has been an interesting local story with international scope. I've been following it for a couple days, but I don't know any more than anyone else with internet access.

[RandiFan1290]

24. Looks like a bunch of idiot rednecks attacking police

What's the problem, Skippy?

[snappyturtle]

104. Attacking police? Armed with cameras and cell phones; avoided Free

Speech pen. Really?

[Sunlei]

25. Our Gov charges some very cheap rate, its like 1.50 a month to graze on our public lands.

It's so cheap, the rancher should have just paid.

On top of that sweet low grazing lease price, our Gov also pays to reseed the land, reopen any water/springs the cattle have trampled, redo every dirt road through the lands. Our Gov pays for fencing, cattle guards on roads. That is our Federal dollars to support what looks like 'welfare ranching'.

Now the Gov has one of their Utah contractors in rounding up the ranches cattle...that's probably the Cartoors? who have made millions off BLM round-ups. They are paid by the animal and use helicopters. We will probably have to pay them close to a million in our federal funds to round-up this ranches semi-wild cattle. I think they got close to 400 already.

That desert land is so very fragile one can still see the covered wagon damage from 100 years ago.

, The BLM 'manages' our public lands and never allows graze use year round. Adjacent ranchers to our public lands pay the 1.50? for a couple months of monitored grazing and then are supposed to move the herd off the public lands.

[rumdude]

49. Puts it in perspective n/t

[snappyturtle]

106. Bundy's ranch area is 578,000+ acres. nt

[Nevernose]

27. Twenty fucking years he's been breaking the law

And this asshole has played every tea bagger card: I'm a citizen, the history of the West, independence, I provide your food.

Basically, the BLM determines how many cattle can graze on a piece of public land based on how much they can graze without damaging things too much. He actually has permission to graze 150 head. Bunds, however, doesn't believe that he should have to limit his cattle (he's got between 900 and 1200 by estimate), nor does he believe that he has to pay.

Your typical entitled Republican asshole who's playing Tea Party dipshits like a fiddle.

http://m.lvsun.com/news/2014/apr/06/rancher-land-dispute-bully-not-hero/

[Renew Deal]

28. Those cops don't look prepared for the action they're seeing.

They're disorganized and aren't using the right tools. Tazers look threatening and aren't good for crowd control.

[Autumn]

31. It's government land. He does not have a permit to graze his cattle on it.

He has used federal lands to graze his cattle without paying fees and in defiance of court orders. He's a fucking thief.

[NYC_SKP]

33. I think that they've been recalcitrant in paying fees for use of BLM land.

They seem to be under the impression that they're somehow "grandfathered in" to some deal that lets them use the land for free and the feds are fed up with it.

I don't think it's at all comparable to Waco or Ruby Ridge, a comparison made today on right wing radio and by, reportedly, the occupants.

Hard to tell, though, what's really going on.

[lonestarnot]

98. Snort, doesn't appear as though they eva wanna pay. They appear to believe they are owed more than

they've already stolen.

[Iggo]

35. Jerks. (n/t)

[Amaya]

36. Reacting in a violent way doesn't help the situation…

were is government real priorities? hmmmm

[Logical]

63. 21years? How much longer should the Feds wait? nt

[Tsiyu]

37. Another teabagging asshole and his buddies

They love their gubbmint perks, can't live WITHOUT gubbmint perks.

Now, this guy's free ride has come to an end after TWENTY years.

And he haz a sad and a mad.

FUCK him and all his friends.

Stop leaching off the government, you tool. If you don't have your own land for cattle, STOP USING the land that belongs to ALL of us!


Talk about your sense of entitlement!

[KamaAina]

39. The Bundys have a ranch?!

[PCIntern]

41. exactly what I was thinking when

I saw the thread title!

[ManiacJoe]

40. Cattle interfering with Chinese(?) solar farm deal?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jlCNhTqjyBMJ:www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo/blm_programs/more/trespass_cattle/cattle_trespass_impacts.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Skip Intro]

44. Solar farm? Wow. From your link:

Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle.

So those grazing cattle, who've been there for decades, are in the way of some solar farm investment?

That has to factor pretty heavily into this whole thing.

[Egnever]

57. No it really doesnt

Unless you think that deal started in 1998.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/04/11/3425659/armed-right-wing-militias-descend-on-nevada-to-help-rancher-defy-court-order/

This conflict arises out of rancher Cliven Bundy’s many years of illegally grazing his cattle on federal lands. In 1998, a federal court ordered Bundy to cease grazing his livestock on an area of federal land known as the Bunkerville Allotment, and required him to pay the federal government $200 per day per head of cattle remaining on federal lands. Around the time it issued this order, the court also commented that “[t]he government has shown commendable restraint in allowing this trespass to continue for so long without impounding Bundy’s livestock.” Fifteen years later, Bundy continued to defy this court order.

Last October, the federal government returned to court and obtained a new order, providing that “Bundy shall remove his livestock from the former Bunkerville Allotment within 45 days of the date hereof, and that the United States is entitled to seize and remove to impound any of Bundy’s cattle that remain in trespass after 45 days of the date hereof.” A third federal court order issued the same year explains that Bundy did not simply refuse to stop trespassing on federal lands — he actually expanded the range of his trespassing. According to the third order, “Bundy’s cattle have moved beyond the boundaries of the Bunkerville Allotment and are now trespassing on a broad swath of additional federal land (the “New Trespass Lands”), including public lands within the Gold Butte area that are administered by the BLM, and National Park System land within the Overton Arm and Gold Butte areas of the Lake Mead National Recreation Area.” The third order also authorizes the federal government to “impound any of Bundy’s cattle that remain in trespass.”

[siligut]

135. " . . . are in the way of some solar farm investment?"

"That has to factor pretty heavily into this whole thing."

Possibly. . . if oil-money interests are financing Bundy's protest.

[maddezmom]

138. That deal is dead

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/jun/14/company-dumps-big-laughlin-solar-project-says-mark/

[siligut]

141. Solar power more expensive than fossil-fuel?

I hope that means just for the initial start-up.

[CreekDog]

158. no cattle have been there for decades

if you think he's grazing cows that are 10,20 and 30 years old, you are mistaken.

sincerely,

cjeekdgg

[MohRokTah]

93. There is no China deal

Deal is dead.

And it wasn't even going to be on that land to begin with but on the other side of Vegas.

[Ex Lurker]

42. Cordon off the area, sit back and let them stew in the heat under their tinfoil hats

eventually they'll get tired and bored and go home.

[Taitertots]

43. Is it just me or does it seem like the government puts on the kid gloves for violent right wingers?

Go watch how they treat anti-fracking protestors or OWS.

[Skip Intro]

45. Should they just mow them down? n/t

[Taitertots]

97. No, but they should probably arrest the guy that is kicking police dogs.

There is an obvious disparity of force between the treatment of right winger and progressive protesters. It is a shame that you think anyone pointing this out is advocating mass murder.

[KansDem]

139. Kicking police dogs

Wouldn't that be tantamount to assaulting a police officer?

There is an obvious disparity of force between the treatment of right winger and progressive protesters.-- I noticed that, too.

[MohRokTah]

46. It's pretty simple, Wingnutjobs itching for a civil war are trying to provoke violent encounter.

Nobody's biting so eventually a wingnutjob wills tart shooting.

All in support of a thief who belongs in prison,

[rumdude]

48. a fantasy based persecution

par for the right wing course.

[VScott]

51. He gave out and posted his phone number.

I wonder how that will work out?

[csziggy]

55. Southern Poverty Law Center information about Cliven Bundy, right wing extremist

Antigovernment ‘Patriots’ Gather Near Scene of Nevada Rancher’s Dispute Over Cattle Grazing Rights
By David Neiwert on April 10, 2014 - 9:36 am, Posted in Antigovernment, Patriot

A Nevada rancher appears to have backed down after threatening to open up a “range war” with the federal government if they rounded up the cattle he had illegally grazing on public lands. Authorities responded to the rancher’s threat with a show of force – an estimated 200 federal agents who descended on the scene – and rounded up the cattle. However, a large contingent of about a hundred antigovernment “Patriots” is now gathering near the site of the roundup as a form of protest and making their presence known.

On Wednesday, the confrontation escalated into a brief dustup between federal law enforcement officers and the protesters, including the son of the rancher at the center of dispute, Cliven Bundy. During the ruckus, caught on video, Bundy’s adult son, Ammon Bundy, was shot with a stun gun that bloodied his shoulder. Eventually the officers retreated, amid much celebration by the protesters.

<SNIP>

The core of the dispute is Cliven Bundy’s ongoing claim to the right to graze his cattle on a sensitive piece of southern Nevada’s Mojave Desert known as Gold Butte. Bundy’s family had grazed cattle in the area for generations, but in 1993 Cliven Bundy stopped paying his fees on the land, claiming that the United States government was not the legitimate landlord.

<SNIP>

Bundy threatened a “range war” if Bureau of Land Management agents took custody of his stock, calling them “cattle thieves.” But, initially at least, the threats appeared to fizzle as the roundup of Bundy’s cattle proceeded apace, accompanied by a heavy law enforcement presence at the scene, while Bundy sputtered helplessly on the sideline. On Sunday, another adult son, 37-year-old David Bundy, was arrested after getting into a confrontation with the federal officers; afterwards, Bundy and his compatriots described for reporters their alleged ordeal the hands of federal officers.

More with lots of supporting links: http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/04/10/anti-government-patriots-gather-near-scene-of-nevada-ranchers-dispute-over-cattle-grazing-rights/

[Skip Intro]

56. I think there might be more to it. n/t

[Egnever]

58. Why?

[Skip Intro]

65. Because others are saying the family has claim to the land.

So there's a conflict - two sides.

Who's right? You know?

I think there may well be more to the story.

[Egnever]

66. No credible others are

only alex jones types.

[Skip Intro]

67. I'm not sure that's true.

There was a link, upthread, to a discussion on some board that seemed totally dedicated to cattle talk or whatever, and a poster there was saying there was more to this. I don't know what the full truth is here. Talk of solar farms and deals with big biz. You know? What is the full truth? I can't be so sure at this point. I hope nobody gets hurt.

[Egnever]

68. You seriously buy into the idea this is about solar panels?

This asshats antics started 20 years ago. There were no solar panel contracts then.

[Skip Intro]

69. Dude...

I don't buy into that any more than I buy into this guy is suddenly actionable after 25 years of illegal use of public lands. That doesn't make sense on its own. Not that this guy, and his family, and all those who are defending them, aren't all crazy - that is certainly possible. But it does have a bit of an unbelievable quality to it. I don't feel like I know the whole story.

[Egnever]

71. It isn't suddenly actionable

it has been ongoing for years.

It just happens that there was a ruling recently.
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/03/26/bundy-again/

The BLM had modified some of the terms of the grazing permit to protect the desert tortoise. Bundy didn’t like the modifications and refused to pay the required grazing fee, but kept his cattle on the range anyway and did not obey the terms to protect the tortoise. Bundy rejected further government orders and even the orders of the federal district court and the 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals. For example, in 1998 the Nevada federal district court issued an order permanently enjoining Bundy from grazing cattle on the allotment. It ordered him to remove all trespass cattle and set a penalty of $200 per day per animal remaining on the federal range. Obviously by today, he owes a huge sum of money on his years of violations of the court order.

According to the BLM, “In 1999, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the District Court’s permanent injunction. When Mr. Bundy failed to remove his livestock as directed by the District Court, the United States filed a motion to enforce the permanent injunction and the District Court ordered Mr. Bundy to pay $1,377 as willful repeated trespass damages and adjusted fines to be consistent with regulatory rates of $45.90 per day for each day Mr. Bundy’s cattle remained on the allotment based on a herd size of 51 cows BLM had documented as still remaining on the federal range.”

Bundy got away with his resistance. Nothing happened until 2011 when the over 900 cattle were counted by air on the allotment. Many were unbranded and lacked ear tags, contrary to law. Another cease and desist was sent to Bundy. He did not comply. Finally in April 2012, after 750 cattle were counted from helicopter on the federal lands, a roundup and impoundment was planned, but it was cancelled the day before it was to start. The government feared violence due to Bundy’s statements and support from anti-government right wingers.

Now Bundy apparently has as many as 600 cattle scattered over a wide area and the operation might take seven weeks. In all, the total acreage of the area where there will be temporary closures is over 580,000 acres. The government even has a roundup update site and a map of closed areas for the public at http://tinyurl.com/leokzah.

[Egnever]

73. Heres the recent ruling

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/nv/field_offices/las_vegas_field_office/cattle_trespass.Par.0116.File.dat/Dkt%2035%20Order%20Granting%20MSJ%207-9-13.pdf

There is no question here, this dude is a wingnut and the government has gone out of its way for years to settle this with him.

[maddezmom]

86. Care to share your sources to what others are saying?

[Skip Intro]

100. Sources? Read the thread. Click the links.

There's a link, in this thread, to a government website that talks about trespassing cattle in this exact area as being incompatible with a solar energy project.

I'm not making that up, it's right here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024802274#post40

What does it mean?

[maddezmom]

101. It means he is trespassing and has been for a long time

What do you thing it means?

[snappyturtle]

108. You bet it factors in. Bundy has been his own worst enemy. He's making it

easy to come down on him for his antics and RW leanings....but, I think there's more behind the curtain, so to speak. Researching more on the Chinese deal I found Sen. Reid's son, Rory, an attorney, in the thick of it. Just sayin'........

[snappyturtle]

115. Here is an article linking the Reid's to the solar plant land grab:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831

[maddezmom]

119. But that deal is dead and it isn't even in the same area

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/jun/14/company-dumps-big-laughlin-solar-project-says-mark/

[snappyturtle]

126. Thanks for this but....I thought it was a different area too until.....

I saw maps linking it. We'll have to see. Doesn't your curiosity get peaked when you realize that Bundy is the last of many ranchers forced off their lands for wahtever reasons? Why would the BLM go to such expense? And, don't tell me it's about turtles....or back fees for grazing. They are spending more to remove Bundy than they would collect in back fees.

[maddezmom]

129. You seem to have your mind made up.

[snappyturtle]

134. Oh, I wouldn't say that! I know Bundy has not paid up and has put himself in

an almost indefensible position. However, looking at a bigger picture, I think the gov't has found and obviously known about for years, a target whose actions make the BLM activities easily accepted by the public. Has the BLM waited for almost twenty years of non-compliance to look like they're bending over to be patient? I don't think so. I think the BLM is acting now because the time is right...for what???? It's just to me, something doesn't smell right.

[maddezmom]

136. Why now? Because BLM was going to be sued to enforce previous court decisions

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2014/desert-tortoise-04-05-2014.html

http://news.yahoo.com/u-seizes-cattle-rare-fight-over-federal-land-110731078.html

(Reuters) - Armed U.S. rangers are rounding up cattle on federal land in Nevada in a rare showdown with a rancher who has illegally grazed his herd on public lands for decades, as conflict over land use simmers in western states.

The dispute in Nevada came to a boiling point after environmentalists told federal land managers they planned to sue to protect a threatened tortoise whose habitat was being destroyed by grazing cattle.

Federal authorities sent in helicopters and wranglers on horseback, starting on Saturday, to seize the estimated 1,000-strong herd, in a battle rancher Cliven Bundy and his allies have likened to a range war with a remote government seeking to suppress the independent spirit of the U.S. West.

[snappyturtle]

144. I'm sorry but this is almost laughable. The BLM has neglected its 'duty' UNTIL

they were threatened with a law suit over turtles. I think it's more to do with the following from your Yahoo link:

The showdown is emblematic of a broader conflict between a dwindling number of ranchers, who have traditionally grazed cattle on public lands and held sway over land-use decisions, and environmentalists and land managers facing competing demands on lands opened to oil and gas development, recreation and other uses.

edit to add: FAA posted NO FLY ZONE over Bundy Ranch from April 11th to May 11th...so much for news helicopters

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_1687.html

[maddezmom]

147. Okay. So I will go a bit further....the RW wants the land use issue to be a state issue not federal

Like Bundy which is why they are throwing their support his way. Koch.s have a huge interest in the land for fracking, etc.

Here is a tie in post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024808162

And a good blog post here
http://noshootfoot.blogspot.com/2014/03/groupthink-and-koch-brothers.html

[maddezmom]

140. Here is a link to a some good Q&A's

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/apr/11/q-behind-bundy-blm-battle/

[snappyturtle]

148. I will read all your link but I have to take a break from reading...anterior uveitis...

my eyes are SOooo tired right now....here's one I edited into one of my replies you may have not seen.

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_1687.html

no fly zone over Bundy area

[maddezmom]

150. I believe it is only to 3000 feet as to not interfer with BLM helicopters

Kind of standard if there are a lot of things inflight I suppose.

[LynnTTT]

92. Been to federal court twice

If you own land you have a title. Even Bundy doesn't say he has a title. That would be a whole nother case.

[csziggy]

60. In what way? BLM, the courts, the SPLC, law enforcement, and other sources

All say Bundy is breaking the law, illegally using public lands, ignoring court orders and so much more.

If more of the "patriot" right wing nuts have gathered to assist him in his disregard of US law, then I'm not surprised if there is a large law enforcement contingent getting ready to confront them.

[Kingofalldems]

79. Yeah, but there's more to it!

Alex Jones said so. And I bet Obama is after their guns as well!

[Skip Intro]

81. Awesome post...

Last edited Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:33 AM - Edit history (1)

[csziggy]

82. !

[Cali_Democrat]

61. Please tell us more....

[tiny elvis]

70. the tactic is not good

people are shouting routine blather for the microphones
it follows that their actions are for the cameras
it is amateur improv
it is not ethically wrong to be provocative
it got a little pushy-dog bitey
protesters did not have weapons
phasers were set to stun

[Skip Intro]

74. "it got a little pushy-dog bitey "

Not a good thing but I like the way you put it. Poetic.

[Jim Warren]

75. uh huh

I don't believe it's a tactic of the BLM, frankly I don't think they have one.

The uniforms in the vid were surprised. Maybe they were unprepared, a fault of their supervisors then. This is the LEA of the BLM, a fraction of BLM employees. Law enforcement isn't exactly one of the top priorities of the BLM.

Bundy is a rascal, and one who knows what he is. A scofflaw, nothing more.
Will he use it to escalate his rise to fame? Sure. Most ranchers of scrub-land desert range would. They are all waiting for some casino or .gov agency to buy them out so they can retire to Branson.

OBTW:

a link you might find interestingz, tie-in to the Koch bros:

http://mediamatters.org/mobile/blog/2014/04/11/feds-turn-from-landlords-to-warlords-koch-group/198857

[kelly1mm]

77. WTF is a "First Amendment Area" ???? Did BLM actually designate a 1st amendment area? Isn't

the entire US a 1st amendment area??? I would expect this from a Republican administration but from our current President???

What am I missing about this 1st amendment area thing? Anyone????

[Sunlei]

88. The BLM doesn't want photos of their round-ups because a lot of animals are run to death.

So the BLM round-up group- create tiny, out of view- 'fenced areas' in these remote desert places, where any 'observers' or photographers must stay or be arrested by Federal or local police. photographers are kept totally out of view.
Only about 5- 10 people show up at these BLM round-ups to observe and document the process. These are very remote areas. It can be blistering hot or many times sub-zero cold.

[snappyturtle]

118. Here is a link to the Federal Register. It consists of two pages regarding the

temporary closure of the ranch by the BLM and on page two, first column is this:

Two locations are available for
members of the public to express their
First Amendment rights: I–15 and Exit
112 for Riverside and State Route 170
and White Rock Road. Only one area
will be available at a time; Incident
Command staff will determine daily
which location is most suitable, based
on impound operation activities and
safety considerations, and will post the
location on BLM and National Park
Service (NPS) websites.
A media information and interview
area will be located at the Intersection
of I–15 and Toquap Wash (between mile
marker 114 and 115). This location will
serve as the primary location for media
to conduct in-person interviews during
the impoundment operations and
temporary closure. Staffed times will be
flexible based on media interest and
return times of media from observation
tours.
Within the closure area, escorted
media viewing opportunities will be
made available for BLM/NPS
credentialed media during the
impoundment operation........

more at link

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014-03-27/pdf/2014-06826.pdf

[kelly1mm]

143. Ok just so I understand this, BLM has closed a part of the public lands, and set aside

a 'holding' area where they allow citizens to protest/engage in their 1st amendment rights? I am not OK with this at all. Don't like it when R administrations do it and don't like it when D administrations do it.

[snappyturtle]

149. I know....and now a no fly zone posted at the FAA over the Bundy area:

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_1687.html

[DrDan]

80. here's a pretty good summary

http://aattp.org/right-wing-terrorists-poised-to-spark-2nd-american-revolution-video/

Sean insanity has been fueling the flames for this guy

[99Forever]

83. Rightwingnuts trying to provoke a violent comfrontation.

A scumbag thieving rancher looking to use gunnuts to "protect" his continued robbing of We the People's resources, to enrich himself.

Well wackadoos, be careful what you ask for...

[Puzzledtraveller]

89. Waco

[rdking647]

90. round up his cattle

let him cry all he wants. just go in and round up all his cattle. let the lunatics on the far right stew in the desert. if one of the milita men attempts to interfere arrest them. most of these so called tough guys will run and cower in hiding when threatened with real consequences.

[adirondacker]

95. Those socialist cows could feed a lot of homeless folks. nt

[Louisiana1976]

152. Well said.

[jwirr]

109. Been in their family for generations - NO. Public land they have rented for a long time but then

stopped paying the rent and are refusing to follow environmental rules. After you realize that this is the real story then we can talk about what is going on. They are trying to claim land that belongs to all of us simply because they have rented it for a long time. WRONG.

[GoCubsGo]

113. I think they're also trying to instigate another "Ruby Ridge".

They want to goad government agents into killing people in order to bolster their anti-government cause. Facts be damned.

[jwirr]

114. Yes, but if they succeed I have already said that I will not blame law enforcement. That land does

not belong to him - it belongs to us.

[GoCubsGo]

116. You won't blame them, and I won't blame them.

But, there are millions who haven't paid attention to this. All they're going to hear is "The big, bad gubbmint killed some innocent people while picking on some poor rancher and killing his cattle." They'll never hear that the rancher has been cheating the taxpayers for two decades. And, that's what these people want--more people turning against the government without knowing the actual facts.

[jwirr]

122. I hear you. I am hoping that the BLM has cautioned the officers regarding the political implications

of this mess.

[GoCubsGo]

127. I'm sure they have.

The various natural resources-related agencies have had to deal with these types for decades. Usually, they are the victims of the violence, rather than the anti-government types, however. At least they know who they're dealing with...

[pinboy3niner]

128. BREAKING NEWS: Major development in Bunkerville cattle battle

Posted in LBN by Keefer:

Source: KLAS TV

LAS VEGAS -- A major development is percolating in the showdown at the Bundy ranch in Bunkerville, Nevada -- a possible deal is in the works. It's an 8 News Now exclusive.

The I-Team has learned that a tentative deal has been brokered by Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie to de-escalate the tense standoff between rancher Cliven Bundy and his supporters and the Bureau of Land Management.

Sources tell the I-Team that Sheriff Gillespie has negotiated a potential agreement in which the BLM would halt its roundup of Bundy's cattle and withdraw its employees from the Gold Butte area.

The BLM wants to proceed with the sale of the cattle already gathered during the roundup but is reportedly willing to share the revenue from the sale with Bundy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014778681

[jwirr]

132. They keep saying Bundy ranch. Does he own land he is calling his ranch or are they calling the

public lands his ranch? I am glad that they are close to an agreement and that he will not be allowed to call the land his anymore. It is not his.

[librechik]

124. RWNJBS. n/t

[Sunlei]

133. 4/11/14 the Federal DOI/BLM had FFA declare the ranch area a "No Fly Zone"

Our Feds squander millions of our Federal dollars, to keep the public-eyes shut.

[MohRokTah]

142. Yo, 3000 feet up is the no-fly zone

That's to avoid any air traffic issues between the BLM helicopters and private aircraft.

Next time I'd advise you think before you make accusations.

[Sunlei]

154. BLM stopped the round-up today, when " Hundreds of people arrived".

[MohRokTah]

155. They et armed terrorists win. eom

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

145. Oh, reminds me of Chicago, summer 2012

NOT!








https://www.google.com/search?q=2012+nato+summit+police+chicago&tbm=isch&cad=h

[Jim Warren]

156. Eyes steady

Koch bros, mormons,, wingnuts, media.
Today a fb page or blog counts as media, right?
Click rates and page views.

Good that the BLM backed down. Persue this legally through the county court. The law is the law. Eventually, the court....and then the jurisdiction sheriff, will have have to act.

[Tassadar]

157. It's pretty insance

Bundy has unilaterally chosen to ignore the authority of the Federal government and not paid grazing fees for 20 years. He has even increased his number of illegally-grazing cattle.

[link:http://www.factandmyth.com/conspiracy-theory/cliven-bundys-cattle-and-the-federal-land-grab|]