General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRelocating is not as hard as people believe it is.
I have relocated 10 times in my lifetime. Education, better job, travel. Four times with a family of 4, wife and two kids. Once went to China with the family to teach English. Both my wife and I taught English at a private school with our kids enrolled in Chinese elementary school.
We even had a mortgage on a house during the latter moves. Just rent the house, I did that, the rent pays off the mortgage.
Have a garage sale, then call the Salvation Army to pick up the left overs.
If you are single and have a car it is even easier.
Go on Craig's list and look for a room to rent in the new location.
Find new job, any job, then get looking for ideal job.
Once you get that job, save up money, rent apartment.
If undocumented can come over here, desert trek, no English, with the clothes on their back, and they can make it. Why not an American, who can drive a car, and speaks English not be able to do it?
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Bullshit opinion; bullshit post.
kcr
(15,326 posts)People who think everyone's situation, experience and ability is just like their own need empathy exercises.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)vinny9698
(1,016 posts)The Gold Rush, the Oregon Trail, all of these people relocated. What was so magical about them? They walked across for the most part. Now that we have the Internet, the Interstate, automobiles, it becomes magical to relocate. WOW
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I'm not sure what that proves.
NorthCarolinaL
(51 posts)Or the Gold Rush. A lot of those gold rush people were fools looking for a quick buck. Most of them ended up with zero.
Actually, I don't understand your point at all. Sounds like you're saying that people who don't have a job should move. Well rah rah with the textbook pep talk, but I already knew that.
I actually think you do what you have to do, but moving for a job in this age of poor attention spans is often folly. I once moved 600 miles for a job that lasted a scant 16 months. We bought a house and the entire department was booted 4 months later.
I will never move for a job like that again. Companies and managers change their minds like changing underwear. Moving in the old days made sense when society was less mobile in so many aspects, but it can be a bad move today.
If you're single, then maybe fine. If married with a family and house, then I often advise against it. Selling stuff that you need to buy later is a loss. Moving means losing money with all the associated costs. Moving to work for some 27 year old manager with his head up his attention deficit ass means you'll be moving again shortly.
Sound like I'm still bitter? LOL. But I have moved 13 times over 8 states. Everybody's situation is different, and often very different. Again, you do what you have to do. I just went into business for myself and am doing more than okay now. Forget moving for a job, at least in the way you described your situation. You'll end up losing more often than not.
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)family ties and dealing with the Rellies. Once you put the move in gear,go for it and do not look in the mirror. Your Family is foremost not the Rellies,yah,if they want to support your family unit for the balance of your life,then all bets are off. But we know that is not going to happen.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Our soldiers go on deployments into life threatening situations. Students go off to college. Travel is so cheap you can always come back for those holidays.
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)the rest is a piece of cake. Airfares are reasonable and if it is a emergency you just take care of business. Always tell our kids,take care of your family first,then the rest is doable.
PasadenaTrudy
(3,998 posts)Try a year somewhere else. I can rent out my place in CA and live somewhere else. I'm lucky, it's just me and my dog, no kids, etc. I can live off my rental property. I'm over 50 and not in the best health, plus I have friends who are much older who kind of rely on me right now. They come first at the moment, but some day I'd like to do this.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Upgrade your skills. Look at your local community college or employment office. They have a lot of free classes.
I live in Houston and I am taking free classes this summer.
http://www.sanjac.edu/cpd/it-training
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)wherever you decided to grace with your presence.
Bless your heart.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)KG
(28,753 posts)TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...for the inspiration.
TYY
randys1
(16,286 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)you know, the way middle and upper income movers do.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)There is a reason the AP style guide does not allow it.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)I fired off an email to Rep. Lofgren's aide, urging her not to jump on the rat-them-out bandwagon.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)vinny9698
(1,016 posts)The Gold Rush, the Oregon Trail, the Americans becoming Mexicans in the 1840s so they could buy land in Tejas. I guess all those people were clueless. Relocating made the US a 50 state nation. If all those people had the same mentality we have now, we still would only have 13 states. Those people relocated on foot, horseback, steamships to Panama, train to cross Panama and steamship to California.
We now have the Internet, Interstate, automobiles, truck stops, cell phones And we can not relocate it is impossible. Just stay put.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)nevermind. That is the point.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Your arguments are so flawed, you're not even wrong.
You sound like one of those clueless business types "Why don't people just buy more money?"
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Just look at some of these people responding to this post.
Ask some of your coworkers and see where they came from.
If you work in a diverse workforce their will be people from different parts of the US and world.
Go to a hospital, most of those doctors have relocated.
Some of those janitors that are unseen that work in these corporations are from different countries
People at all levels relocate.
Are these people also clueless?
I did not say it was fun, and not easy, but doable.
I bet you have relocated or would if offered the right job with the right money.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)You're stating that it can be done. If that's all, then there is really no point to your post, is there? I've relocated and it sucked every time, it's a giant pain and can completely ruin people.
What is your point?
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Take the Greyhound and relocate to a city where they have great public transportation.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)But San Jose ain't no SF. I'm trying desperately to get up there, or to Oakland or Berkeley, but haven't had a nibble in weeks, although there was a promising posting in Oakland this week.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Look at trying to go back to school for training. Community colleges have a lot of grant money for people who are unemployed or underemployed. They even provide financial aide.
http://www.work2future.biz/images/documents/Introductory_Courses_Flyer.pdf
Here is a website for the San Jose area that provides free online courses to upgrade your skills. It also helps because employers are looking for recent graduates, this proves that you are trained in the latest technology but more important that you are a trainable person. That means a lot to most employers, that you can learn and want to learn.
I have an MBA but I have enrolled in a class here in Texas to become a computer repair person and i am 69 years old.
So good luck
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I have a position open in Santa Rosa for a senior tech person (VMware/SAN/MS Server/SQL admin).
I know Santa Rosa is a far cry from SF, but it's pretty nice here.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)community advocacy at a nonprofit serving people with disabilities down here.
And we once had a regional meeting at our sister agency in Santa Rosa, and I agree. You might be in wine country if... you go to an Indian joint for lunch and they have wine bottles on the tables!
sweetapogee
(1,168 posts)New York City
There is a tremendous need for your talents there.
Now get!
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Mid- to late '90s. Wasn't workin' so hot then. I maxed out at $31K!
Then again, Mom and Republican Stepdad live there, and I'm going to visit in a week and a half. Who knows?
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Let's see, average rent for a single bedroom apartment is NYC is $36,000 a year. Even if you have a job that pays double the minimum wage, your gross before taxes is $31,000.
I could probably double my salary taking my same job in SF, but what I just paid for my house wouldn't buy me a hovel in that area.
fishwax
(29,150 posts)TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)Edit your OP to replace "illegals" with undocumented immigrants or undocumented workers.
"Illegals" is dehumanizing and feeds racism. It is a racist slur that detracts from the original intent of your post.
Your recommendations are good and I appreciate the inspirational suggestions. It's good advice. Just fix the slur...
TYY
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)They'll constantly make excuses for why they cannot move instead of creating a plan and focusing in on executing it. I moved over 2,000 miles for a better life. It was a huge sacrifice, but totally worth it in the end.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Yes, the planning stages start with doing research. The Internet, different state;'s employee agencies. All at your fingertips.
taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)Hell... you have complete access to free street view maps of almost every neighborhood in the US. It's so easy to take "virtual tours" of where you might live and work.
aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)http://www.dhs.gov/estimates-unauthorized-immigrant-population-residing-united-states-january-2011
I've also read somewhere that DHS uses the phrase undocumented alien.
taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)tymorial
(3,433 posts)It made them uncomfortable so they forgot everything they read and focused on the one thing that didn't make them feel good. The op could have used a better word but you are correct, it is sad. It is a product of a culture where objectivity and reason are only useful to the point that they validate one's feelings.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)I don't understand most people's reluctance to move to a location where jobs are more plentiful. For me, in my profession, it was an absolute must if I wanted to get anywhere, which I did. And that was always my advice to young people in my profession who wanted to advance. Be willing to relocate, or you will never get anywhere. I can see if you are a lawyer, accountant, doctor, or in sales, you may not have to relocate. But for the sciences, unless you live in a big city, it is a must.
It's still a pain in the ass, though. I don't recommend moving without a job, though, especially if you currently have one. That's foolish, but it may depend on the job. I've moved so much, I've pared my possession down to the bare minimum.
It helps that I grew up never calling any place home. I think it was a blessing in disguise, although I hated it at the time. But now I do not see the attraction of spending my whole life in a single place. Boring as shit, that would be. Then again, I have never lived anyplace worth living in, if it weren't for my job. So there's that.
PS- no person is a illegal. Call them undocumented, if you wish, but avoid the other i-word.
Also, never, but never, move to Texas in August. In fact I recommend against moving anywhere in the summer (although I realize that when most people do it because kids are out of school).
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)Did you get a storage unit or did you purge everything?...and by 'everything,' I mean photos and memorabilia...
TYY
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)DO NOT RENT storage unit. You are putting used furniture. Just sell it, you can always buy used furniture in garage sales, thrift stores and maybe in better shape that you have already. You can always get a friend or close relative to store a few boxes of photos.
Scan them into digitals and put them on CDs.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...ALL good advice!
Memorabilia (including artwork and favorite t shirts) could be photographed, important papers digitized; and everything saved to a small portable hard drive. Then sell or donate to goodwill.
You've given me a lot to think about. Books and photo albums will be hard for me to let go but it can be done. I just need to get started.
All of my 'things' and 'stuff' have felt like a ball and chain for quite some time. Getting rid of it would be liberating.
TYY
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)It depends on a large number of factors. This OP seems an attempt to minimize those factors which can be tremendous.
Are you really saying giving up everything is "not hard" for everyone?
"Find new job, any job, then get looking for ideal job."? That seriously is your advice? Besides overlooking the difficulties in that, it seems rather condescending to assume that many of us under or non employed people are not already doing that.
I do hope you did not mean this OP to be as belittling and condescending as it comes across.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)"Find new job, any job, then get looking for ideal job."? That seriously is your advice? Besides overlooking the difficulties in that, it seems rather condescending to assume that many of us under or non employed people are not already doing that.
You are not in the right location if you can not find a job.
Find any job, actors who are auditioning all the time in NYC and Hollywood, work as waiters, construction workers while looking for that big break. Students will work menial jobs while in school and sometimes they continue working those jobs after getting their degree.
I have a MBA, there were times in my relocations that I would lie about my education. If I had to show transcripts, i would show them my junior college transcripts or just say I only had a high school diploma. I have rented apartments, while I was single with room mates, Working as a waiter, until I got my first teaching job in Arlington, Texas. I then relocated to Kenedy, Texas yes one N and rented a room from a family. I was single at that time. From there I went to Corpus Christi to get my Texas certification, lived at the dorms, relocated to Hidalgo, Texas for a computer teaching position. I eventually bought a house in McAllen, Texas. I had a 3/4 ton Dodge truck with a camper shell, so that helped with my belongings but no furniture. While my mom and sister lived in El Paso, Texas.
Yes in a matter of 4 years.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)So I should move from my small town where I have lived for years, have contacts, to the city where I get to compete with MORE people for every job? And lie about my age? Move to the city, pay more in rent or aha! Live in my car and save on rent! No belongings, work at a minimum wage job if I can get hired, at 60. Seriously? I mean, seriously?
I've worked shit jobs, and have moved several times, lived in my truck also. But to say "You are not in the right location if you can not find a job" is again condescending because no. It isn't always that simple.
And for those with kids? Even more difficult. Get a job, any job, at minimum wage, and pay childcare more than you bring in while also not being able to raise your kids. Oh, it gives you experience, so later when your kids are older and able to be latchkey kids or old enough to stay home alone at night while you work graveyard shift, you can get a better job, "the one you really want"?
When I was young, I moved around the country several times and yes, it was difficult but ok. Having a child made it more difficult, pretty much impossible to move from free childcare with family to a place where I had to pay more than I made. And now, at 60, having to compete with all those younger people and no, I won't live in my car?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Nor is it as easy as we'd like to believe.
Anecdotal evidence and editorials are unable to capture the mechanisms allowing or denying a household the ability to do one thing or another as they do not (and can not) illustrate that particular household's potential. No doubt, we like to project our own experiences on the collective whole, but that is short-sighted and flawed.
What I may or may not be able to accomplish is considerably different than what any one other individual may be able to-- given different circumstances, employment security, employment opportunities, medical emergencies, financial environments, etc.
Pretending otherwise is disingenuous and a rather dramatic illustration of one's bias...
Saviolo
(3,284 posts)What about the people who do not have a house to mortgage? What about the people who are working two full time jobs to barely scrape by? Where do they get the money for first and last month plus deposit? What about the people who have had their credit ruined because of a medical emergency and won't get approved for a new lease?
There are a huge number of people who have some or all of these problems, and in their cases it is nigh impossible to relocate to escape those problems.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)You can rent a room on Craig's list for a fraction that you are paying for an apartment. If you are single. Married folks might have to move in with the inlaws, have spouse go to new location, rent room, get job, then save up and have family move out.
South Dakota is having housing issues because of all the males relocating there.
I know that situation, I relocated to Odessa, Texas from California via El Paso, Texas. Odessa was going to that oil boom. housing was a big issue, I rented out a garage, the family had turned the garage into a spare bedroom. the garage door was still visible from the inside. No insulation, they just moved out the car and some stuff, they still had some stuff in the corner and in the shelves. take it or leave it. I took it. My rent $400 a month. Later I enrolled at UTPB Odessa and got into student dorms $125 a month and a living very well AC, kitchen,
But it can be done. Just plan it out.
Saviolo
(3,284 posts)That room to rent on Craigslist will probably still require first and last. Some people are estranged from their families on both sides of the relationship or have no family left. It's awesome that you've be able to move around with impunity by being such a great planner, but your experience is not necessarily typical.
I have a friend who took one of those cheap Craigslist rooms (that seemed fine at first) and were sexually assaulted by their new "landlord." Of course because it was an illegal sublet they couldn't exactly go to a tenant board, and the police assumed that it was a voluntary thing.
The amounts of money you're talking about ($125 for student dorms) seem amazing until you think about the cost of enrolling in a school as well, which is well beyond the ability of many. There's a reason that poverty is a cycle that few people can escape. Some people work incredibly hard to try to get ahead, but just find themselves running in place.
If I had to move suddenly, I could probably manage it, with some help from my support network. It would be messy, but I could do it. Not everyone has a support network. Telling people to rely on storage at the in-laws' place or stay with family is like Mitt Romney encouraging students to borrow $20k from their parents to start their first business: http://www.msnbc.com/the-ed-show/romney-tells-students-borrow-money
Not everyone has the same resources.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)You need to compare apples to apples. Relocation has been going on for eons. Africans relocated from Africa to Europe and that is how the world got populated.
Not everyone has the same resources, but some do and they still won't relocate.
I was once a student advisor at a community college, I called a student about a possible job in the next town, 20 miles away. He said no. So, I told him once I found a job in his rural town I would call him. I never did. It was not my responsibilty to find him a job. But sometime employers called to get the brightest students.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Wow.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)He wanted a job in his rural part of the country. I told him if anyone called from Hidalgo, I would call him. No one from Hidalgo called. Hidalgo is a small border town, you can walk from one end of the business to the other end. One street business town. What I suppose to do? Walk and knock on each business. He lived there.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Saviolo
(3,284 posts)I'm not comparing the $20k loan to storing boxes, I'm saying that both statements are incredibly tone-deaf when advocated to someone who does not have that resource. A young man kicked out of his home for being gay (a common occurrence, still) will not have family to store his stuff for a little while until he's settled in.
"Just call your family" is not an answer to someone estranged from their family. Your story is amazing because you have an amazing functional safety net including money, family, savings, and time. To people with none of these resources, your advice might as well be "just land on the moon and start a new life there."
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)See what happens when you forage for food on someone's property. That's how the world got populated but it took many years and a lot of deaths. You were at the mercy of the climate, geology, predatory animals, going into a new area and not knowing what plants were safe to eat, etc.
Even the people that trekked across the U.S. were able to supplement their supplies with what they could forage. They didn't need money since there was no place they could spend it.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)But that has nothing to do with your statement about how humans colonized the planet thousands of years ago. Those conditions were nothing like today.
That's why I told you to try it the way it was done 50,000 years ago.
Saviolo
(3,284 posts)From the Catherine Tate show.
Some people (like the OP) just assume that everyone has the same resources when those resources are trivial to them, but can't understand when it's an insurmountable problem to someone else.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)We are talking about today.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Some people need a lot of extended family support with children etc. Some may have visitation or elder care to consider. Some need to have a city with walkable amenities or excellent transit.
But barring actual substantive barriers yes there is a fallback risk-aversion and fear of change that keeps many folks unable to move away from where they were raised. I have all the empathy in the world for people who cannot move and cannot find work. I have much less for people perfecly capable of moving (I'm on my 7th state, and in my 50s with serious mobility issues) but who whine there are no jobs for underwater welders in Boise and that means there are no jobs at all because they are unwilling to look at other professions and other areas. It may very well be comfy to stay where everyone you know lives and went to the same school, but it's grievously limiting to opportunities and removes a great deal of credibility from claims that there are no jobs to be had. You can sell and buy a house, make new friends, learn new neighborhoods and enlist kids in new schools a shitload easier than you can wish into existence a company hiring your exact skillset in your exact area. Trust me. Done the former several times. Never managed the latter.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)Most Americans live within 100 miles of their birth families because they do value those connections.
I know I greatly missed my grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins when we had to move away from them. I'm glad our children were able to grow up in a stable situation. We moved, but only within the same general area and it didn't disrupt our friendships.
P.S. For parents, staying near grandparents isn't just about childcare helpers. It's about staying near the people who love your children the most, other than you.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)And it IS a question, a subjective one with no single correct answer.
Are those connections, or rather those connections being in constant physical proximity (since moving in itself doesn't mean disowning friends and relatives), worth more than either being employed to the limit of your ability in the best case, or employed at all in the worst case?
Because if people can say "I won't move away from grandma" it's surely equally plausible for companies to decide not to operate where grandma happens to be, and in fact not to even try the impossible task of considering where every employees relatives are.
I have no issue with people making the different choice from mine. I do think though they are disingenuous in claiming that there are no jobs available when what they reeally mean is there are no jobs in their line near grandma. The analog would be relocaters like me complaining that there are no relatives. There certainly are, they just don't live near me any more.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)have to many of us.
Selling houses and stuff is not the real issue.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Especially with today's communication options, relationships not dependent on physical needs are fairly easy to maintain remotely.
Again there's no right answer, but complaining about no jobs when being unwilling (as opposed to genuinely unable) to move is like complaining about not seeing your Aunt Mary every weekend when you moved 1000 miles away. If people find moving absolutely unacceptable, they must admit to limiting their work opportunities intentionally and knowingly.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)The only reason we mean anything to our granddaughter is because of the physical time we've spent with her, not the virtual time.
Nay
(12,051 posts)grandchild is so important to me that no, I don't want to move to some exotic place in our retirement. If all I had with my grandchild was Skype, FFS, we'd have no relationship. That's like saying you can have a relationship with some actor on TV.
He hates the weather where we live, but my feeling is that since he wanted the job here and we relocated for it, well, now he gets to live with his choice.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)but not everyone is you.
"Just rent the house"
Great if you can find a reliable tenant and have someone to collect the rent and look after the property while you are gone.
"The rent pays of the mortgage"
Provided you can rent it for that price.
"Find new job, any job, then get looking for ideal job.
Once you get that job, save up money, rent apartment. "
Doesn't work so well when all you can find are minimum wage jobs. Also, this assumes you (or your ffamily) are not injured or sick while lacking insurance resulting in taking on crippling amounts of debt.
I am glad you have had a life which has gone smoothly in this respect, but few other people do.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Tenants and Toilets.
You need to really do a background check. One of my friends would tell them he was going to run a background check and if there was anything in there they needed explaining. He never ran the check because they cost money, but a lot of people fessed up.
Run credit card checks, have them get a police report. I had that done to me when I was renting apartments.
If you have a minimum wage job and your only skills are going to get you a minimum wage job then there is no point in moving.
Community colleges are offering free or next to nothing jobs skills. I live in Houston and I will be taking a free IT class.
http://www.sanjac.edu/cpd/it-training
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Your whole post is a bunch of brightsided nonsense, but renting out a single family home is a pretty bad deal in most cases, ESPECIALLY if you are far away and can't keep an eye on it.
RadiationTherapy
(5,818 posts)I suppose there may be a few people who have your means - or greater - but who haven't thought of the ideas you present.
eridani
(51,907 posts)People without the stomach to do that just don't want to work.
Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts)courts forbidding them from moving very far from their children's fathers. However, the non-custodial fathers can move wherever they wish.
Glad it went well for you, but it is rarely ever as easy as you claim.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I did everything I was 'supposed' to do when I got a divorce. I actually moved at first so I could go to a decent university, and I moved with my ex's blessing. However, he then put it in our separation agreement that I was only allowed to live in 2 different places. Where I currently live, or where he lives. I'm legally not allowed to move 'to where the jobs are'. My ex, however, can move wherever he wants.
Anyhow, I did what was expected and went and got a degree while being a single parent of 4, then i got a full time job in my field immediately. It doesn't pay very well at all, despite my field being quite high paying on average. Our area just went into a recession and jobs are now scarce. I'm stuck in a mortgage that my parents cosigned because it was cheaper to buy a place than rent. Even low-income places around here have rents comparable to my mortgage payment. I can't get a mortgage for a place other than a condo or mobile home because of my low income. My parents have said they won't be cosigning for me again because they are retiring and don't want the risk of the debt. So I can't move. I'm stuck. I could rent out my place, but I would need to be able to afford 2 mortgages or a mortgage and rent should the tenant skip town or refuse to pay or whatever.
There are jobs in some smaller communities several hours from where I am. I also have several far-away places where I have relatives who could help me get a good paying job. However...I cannot move there. Unless, of course, I give up custody of my kids. Sorry, not happening.
And just imagine the logistics for some people - how do you move furniture if you have physical disabilities and no friends or family to help? No money to hire movers? and so on. The person who posted this thread lacks imagination and thinks his life is everyone's life, and can't imagine it being different outside his little bubble.
Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts)The university saturated the market and gave her huge expectations. After saturating the market for several years they, unsurprisingly, dropped that degree program. She is $30,000 in debt and cleaning houses to take care of her and the boys.
The father of my oldest grandson, 14, is talking about moving to Alaska, yet my daughter can't move 100 miles.
The poster is typical of so many that have that 'bootstrap' attitude.
I do hope your situation changes for the better soon. Ridiculous the restraints still placed on women, but not men. This needs to change, just another way to control women, imo.
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)and i'm willing to bet you and the family didn't just parachute into china with nothing lined up.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)I am not privileged. Use the Internet and you will hired to teach English, in Viet Nam, China, Thailand,
At that time I was a full time teacher in Houston, and had the summer off. I went online and rented a room in Shang Hai from a family for the summer, kids and all. Their daughter, Communist Party official, was starting a school in Gao Ming and invited myself and family to teach English at their elementary school. Her husband was a Communist Party official and head of a factory in Gao Ming. So we went to work for the Chinese Communist Party. They paid well $1200 per month for each of us, $2400 total for my wife and I. Plus Western style apartment, free breakfast, free lunch, maid service, chauffer, free Internet, free censored cable TV, Hong Kong news were always getting blacked out. Pledging to Chairman Mao every morning in class.
http://www.englishfirst.com/trt/gudlp/gudlpEF-application-form.aspx
Good luck
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)my point is that you didn't just parachute into the country with no jobs or housing lined up.
and, yes, you are privileged in that you had a house you could rent out to cover those costs while you were gone. yes, you are privileged in that you could even afford a passport. yes, you were privileged in that you could bring your family.
not everyone can do what you did.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Most people do not own their home but have a mortgage. so it makes it harder. Renting you just live out the lease and off you go.
I was lucky very lucky that my tenants were a doctor doing his internship and his wife a nurse with no kids. Ideal tenants.
I am not saying everyone can or should do it.
Just that a lot more people can do it and have done it.
At my job, I teach at a community college most professors there have all relocated from different parts of the US and some from other countries.
Austin, Texas is very hard to get jobs there. Students relocate from all over rural Texas, they get used to the lifestyle and do not want to go back to a small country town. I had a Marketing professor in Odessa, Texas, who told me he wasn't coming back, he made more money being a bartender in Austin and got laid every night. He had a PHd in marketing.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)DFW
(54,502 posts)What is your native language, just out of curiosity? We native speakers of English say "for my wife and me," FYI. If you aren't sure, just leave off "my wife and." If you don't say "for I," then you don't say "for my wife and I."
As for the rest of it, I have lived in Virginia, Spain, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, back to Massachusetts, Texas, and now Germany. But I have worked for the same outfit since I was recruited in 1975, and had the incredible luck to make a salary that allowed me to do pretty much whatever the hell I wanted. How many people can make that claim?
We never had children until we were sure they would grow up in a stable environment. That worked out well, and they felt stable enough to go to school all over the map (12 time zone difference at times), and I had the luck to be able to afford it. That's not a claim everyone can make either. Our kids were used to having grandparents in Virginia and northern Germany, and a great grandparent in New York City, and grew up bilingually.
In other words, being flexible is great IF you can manage it and work it out financially. However, that is a luxury that far from everyone can permit themselves. Reasons of family, health, work, or just plain lousy luck can play a factor so decisive that the best of advice sometimes just doesn't offer a satisfactory solution. Those of us who lucked out need to recognize that we did indeed luck out. It's far from a universal phenomenon.
I have moved several times myself, often thousands of miles and it is not easy.
Where did you live where your rent paid off the mortgage like a land contract? You are assuming people have huge savings accounts built up and awesome credit. Rent is outrageously expensive today.
On edit:
I see that you rented the house that you owned. I tried to do that when I had to move from my home town. Thanks to an underwater mortgage that resulted in a high payment and high management fees I ended up having to sell it as a loss. Mind you, when I bought the house I thought I was going to live there forever, but thanks to the economic collapse of 2008, I had to move 1200 miles away so my husband could get a job.
Texasgal
(17,049 posts)Or do you have one?
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Now it is easier to relocate, Moses led a big relocation into the desert.
Texasgal
(17,049 posts)Not "you can relocate"!
POINT. What is it?
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)sometimes it's under the most dire of circumstances, and I've had it both ways.
When I was young, I moved from upstate NY to Florida with 1 suitcase. Moved from there to Chicago a couple years later with 2 suitcases and a little money. Stayed with a friend, got a job, got an apartment and loved living in Chicago for a year, but I got bored and wanted to be on the West Coast. The shop I was working for offered to give me a job in SF and put me up in their condo for a few weeks and I got a flat of my own, and more jobs and got more experience in various job markets. I knew I needed to be in LA for the music and show business work I wanted to pursue, so I packed myself off to LA... I think on a bus! I stayed with various shady characters and had some crazy experiences! But I landed a real job finally, and stayed in a weekly apartment for almost a year and saved up for a proper apartment.
I moved about every 2 years in LA, always to a next better place... Got better jobs, bought and sold houses and property and did really really well! I decided to move to Europe, to the South of France and for a while it was good, but life is life and it went to shit after a few years. I lost everything.... my house, work... I had to give up one of my 2 dogs to a lovely family in order to keep a roof over my head. But it worked out, and I rebuilt my life again, as we have to do.
Now I've been bopping around Europe for various projects and work, and I still find I move about every 2 years, and I kind of like it. My worldly goods fit in a (rental) van, and frankly I don't even need most of them. The projects I take provide housing which makes life easier. The current project doesn't require my gorgeous Parisienne street clothes, so they're all in storage... but they let me have my dog Kevin, and he's sure he's in doggie heaven on this estate!
Storage is good, sometimes I pay for it, most times I can manage to find something for free. I have storage and parking in Paris anytime I need it, and a flat I can use there most of the year.
My housekeeper in LA was wonderful. Her name was Daisy and we became good friends (she got a LOT of goods from my house when I moved from LA!!). She told me her story of walking to Los Angeles from El Salvador to make a better life for herself and her daughter back home. I think of her when I am going through hard times. If she can walk 2700 miles to make a better life for herself, I can pack up my stuff, find a home for my dog and get on with my life too, if I need to.
Texasgal
(17,049 posts)"bopping around Europe"..."my gorgeous parisienne street cloths" " my housekeeper in LA"
Are you kidding me? Am I missing something here?
PasadenaTrudy
(3,998 posts)Lots of wealth here in the Southland. Just sayin'.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)No spouse, no partner, no children, no blood relatives to feel attached to.
Just a couple dogs -- one that you gave away.
Not everyone wants to "bop around" the world, unattached and always on the move.
But good for you if this is the life you want to lead.
I_Like_Hammers
(30 posts)1. I have no job
2. No savings
3. Never learned to drive
4. Crippling social anxiety
5. Disabled due to heart problems
6. No permanent home, "live" with one family member for a month, then switch to another
7. Absolutely zero skills
8. Literally own nothing but a plastic bag with one pair of jeans, three shirts, and a few pairs of socks
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Why are you not applying for SSI? There are lawyers on TV all the time that will help you get SSI.
I know plenty of people who have gotten SSI, because I worked for the Salvation Army and were there until their SSI case got settled. Most people got $1200 per month checks.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)If you're applying for disability you can't work, so unless you have money coming from somewhere what do you do. It may take years before the final approval.
You sure make it sound so easy, so it's obvious you never had to go through any process like that.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Some relatives will be more inclined to support you, knowing that there is a light at the end of your tunnel.
I worked for the Salvation Army, the homeless shelter had several people waiting for their SSI cases to resolved.
They get a lump sum, where their attorneys get a fraction. None ever donated any money after they got their money, they just disappeared, not even a thank you.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Alaska I think would work
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)MIRT probably should have caught this before it reached 100?
Smacks of the sort who are trying to persuade people that it's "natural" for the poor to move out of the way while the rich speculators gobble up their "desirable" property out from under them. Nevermind the community ties someone has built over the course of decades where someone has made their homes. Nevermind someone's local government or charity involvement, church participation, children who might be uprooted from school. If their property is "desired" by someone wealthier, then they better just get used to getting out of the way and moving on.
One thing people need to start investigating now is how much of this desirable property is owned by foreign absentee landlords for "bank"/money-laundering purposes. This issue goes beyond the 40% empty luxury condos that exacerbated the housing crisis in San Francisco. Some real estate agencies solicited local listings and went on junkets to Hong Kong to peddle California properties to investors there. So the sneering folks advising the poor to "move on" may not even be representing the American rich, but rather the interests of International investors that own the properties beneath us.
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)improve your quality of life instantly by simply packing up and moving.
That's why there are bridges and tunnels.
Manhattan got too expensive... moved to Queens.
A job came up in LA... moved again.
Better job back in New York... came back.
Another job in Michigan... moved again.
Began freelancing thirty five years ago... moved to a place with enough room for a home office.
Kids born... moved to a place with a backyard. OK, you got me. Been here thirty years.
I know that there are people who cannot just pack up and move. There are members of my own family who are so attached to the ancestral manor (small attached house in Brooklyn) that the thought of moving makes them ill.
But for most of us it's just a matter of overcoming inertia.
Paladin
(28,283 posts)vinny9698
(1,016 posts)$1200 a month in Thailand you can live like a King.
Sometimes with that fixed income, it is a lot easier. There are cities in Mexico where senior citizens have a major impact. San Miguel Allende, http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/on-retirement/2014/09/09/retirees-are-lured-by-san-miguel-de-allendes-charms
has that.
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)I gave away everything and bought new when I got to the next destination.
1939
(1,683 posts)1961 to 2001, I lived in 18 rentals (trailers, apartments, houses) and 7 houses that I owned in 13 cities in six states (plus a couple of foreign countries). During that time, i raised two kids and two step kids all four of them doing well.
raccoon
(31,131 posts)a job.
All three times, the job was a crappy one and they couldn't find anybody local to take it because it was crappy.
YMMV.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)What are we complaining about? ... Seems like such trifles ...
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)people
The world is not so easy for much of us (especially those of us who actually care and love and are not cold, insensitive and narcissistic), and when people like to make it look like modern life is so easy, they in effect are giving excuses for the calvinists / Republicans to condemn people for not being rich and prosperous, thus leading to dehumanizing treatment of the masses of people.
What you are doing is cruel.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Eom
dembotoz
(16,865 posts)And there is some difference between decided to move and immigration grabbed ya and thru u out
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)and it is as hard as most people think it is -- also costly unless one has assets like savings or real estate.
It gets easier in the sense that one learns to expect the inconveniences, cost, and isolation but it's always a chore.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I think you must be referring to some earlier thread I missed. About half of the responses to you seem snarky, with the other half giving straight replies.
What gives? Why are some people taking offense to your post? I get that there are situations that will prevent some people from moving. But by and large I agree with what you're saying, having picked up and moved across the country several times (sometimes with money, sometimes with nothing but lint in my pocket).
Anyway, OP, or anyone else, please explain the hostility I have so far failed to understand.
bhikkhu
(10,726 posts)and people do benefit from living in a community where they are known, where they know people, and where they feel a sense of home. That is hard to leave and it takes some time to develop, if it can be developed at all.
I left the city I grew up in at 17 and have lived on both coasts, in 10 different cities and towns on all four corners of the country. I suppose I moved mostly because I never felt at home, really, and any time I had a couple thousand dollars in the bank I'd start looking for another place to go where I might find that. Having found that, it would be really hard to move. If I go to the grocery store I see people I know, if I walk down main street I meet people I know, and I know who owns most of the buildings and the stories behind many of them, who owns the businesses, things that have come and gone, all the little bits of local history. And many people know me and my family and the various things that have gone on over the years. It would be hard to move somewhere new and be "nobody", a stranger surrounded by strangers again.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)so I call bullshit. Most people either don't have a house or owe way too much to make enough on rent to do what you did.
Yes it is hard. You have to have money to move. Most people don't have money.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)And even when I rented out the house, all of that money went to paying off the mortgage.
They key to relocating is getting job skills that will lead to better paying jobs.
Community colleges and state employment offices offer free courses. If you are working a minimum wage job, then relocating is not going to help to relocate to another minimum wage job.
I live in Houston, Texas and I am taking free IT classes.
http://www.sanjac.edu/cpd/it-training
chade
(103 posts)First, I don't think it's fair to assume that everyone is wired the same way, and I don't think it's too much to ask for us as a society to have empathy toward the different ways that people live. I don't really know how, but I always knew from a young age that I needed to live in the city. I grew up in a very small town and had no experience with this type of lifestyle. Now that I live here, I wouldn't dream of moving back. Conversely, my father helped me move to the city when I first got here, and has never, ever been back since. I would consider it the height of cruelty for me to suggest that he should 'move to the city' if he were ever in a jam.
I've considered moving overseas, but I know other people who are thinking of moving back home to be closer to their family after moving away from them. Still other people haven't ever left their extended families. Some couldn't wait to get as far away as possible. None of these choice are the 'right' or 'wrong' one, but they do come into play in big ways in a decision to relocate.
Second, depending on what the situation is, I think people can begin to lose what I'll call "The Sight." I'm sure there's a real psychological word for it that I don't know, but it's similar to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. When you're in a situation where you're living paycheck-to-paycheck, or you have health problems, family issues, or other extenuating circumstances, it becomes increasingly more difficult to think about a bigger solution to your problem, because you're dealing with much more immediate issues. It's like driving on the highway vs. driving in a city. On the highway, you can turn the cruise control on, listen to the radio, and watch the exit and mileage signs to know where you are relative to your destination. In a city, you have to pay attention to pedestrians, cyclists, narrow lanes, and more traffic in tight blocks, so your full concentration is required all the time, making it much more difficult to plan ahead and figure out where you're going. Once you lose The Sight, it's often challenging to get it back, and 'getting there' requires a really long series of very small steps. Suggesting a seismic lifestyle shift to someone who is struggling to get by can be downright counterproductive.
If anything, we could use a far more developed sense of empathy and respect of other humans' different approaches to life, not less. I certainly wouldn't judge anyone who said that they found relocating difficult, because there are dozens of reasons for that to be the case. Possessions, property, and logistics are often the very least of those problems.
Quayblue
(1,045 posts)And respectfully disagree, despite me leaving 2 unfavorable places with the clothes on my back. I'm fairly well adjusted, but what's true for one, is almost always absolutely not true for another.
We are always subject to personal life experiences that give us the go ahead in many situations...perhaps not for others.
peace
ladyVet
(1,587 posts)Oh, yeah. It was great. Once they sold the house and uprooted the kids from family, friends and school, it was a piece of cake. Get on a plane, fly somewhere that would pay for valuable job skills...
Oh, wait. Not all that easy for these folks, was it? Long, hard treks into lands where they weren't sure they'd even be able to survive, losing people for all sorts of reasons, suffering who knows what kinds of predations, illnesses...
I have relocated 10 times in my lifetime. Education, better job, travel. Four times with a family of 4, wife and two kids. Once went to China with the family to teach English. Both my wife and I taught English at a private school with our kids enrolled in Chinese elementary school.
We even had a mortgage on a house during the latter moves. Just rent the house, I did that, the rent pays off the mortgage.
Jesus Christ. How long ago was this? Before the housing market crashed, and most people are like my sister, who can't sell her house? Before everybody and his brother was out of work and desperate for anything, any kind of job?
Of course, you had viable job skills. Yay for you. We aren't all that fortunate. Maybe we should have known better.
Have a garage sale, then call the Salvation Army to pick up the left overs.
So, give up everything you've worked to hold on to, and buy it again someplace else, with money you don't have.
If you are single and have a car it is even easier.
Yeah, because what we need is to increase the homeless population.
Go on Craig's list and look for a room to rent in the new location.
Moving in with possible rapists, thieves and serial killers is exciting!
Find new job, any job, then get looking for ideal job.
Well, fuck me, but if I could just get a job that easily, I'd have one here.
Once you get that job, save up money, rent apartment.
Oooohhhh! Back to the living in the car idea. That looks great on the rental agreement, by the way. Not.
If undocumented can come over here, desert trek, no English, with the clothes on their back, and they can make it. Why not an American, who can drive a car, and speaks English not be able to do it?
Well, at least you wised up and changed that racist shit you had in there. People pack up and move all the time. It's not like you've come across some miracle solution that will solve all the economic problems in the world. Comparing today's situation with that of our African ancestors, or the early settlers of this country is ridiculous. Things are not the same at all. For every job out there, there are many people applying.
I'm going to tell my story now. My entire childhood was spent moving. We regularly packed up everything we had -- and it wasn't much, as we were terribly poor -- and moved from city to city so my father could either work, look for work, or find a house we could afford. We lived in falling-down places most people wouldn't put a dog in. We were cold in the winter and boiled in the summer.
We were always the new kids, the poor kids, the kids who were behind everybody else. For a period of about seven years, I started at one school and finished at another. There was even a year or two when I attended three schools.
To blithely suggest uprooting children from everything they know, their relatives, their friends, the school they attend, is so callous I can't even find the words (well, actually, I can, but they'd get me banned here).
I hated moving all the time. It's very stressful, and especially for children. We often never knew where we would be moving until a few days before we got there. My father had trouble finding people willing to rent to someone with six children, so there were times when we ended up crammed into a relative's house. The resentment this causes is also stressful.
When I went into the USAF, I went first to Texas, then Colorado, then Florida, withing three months. I nearly lost my mind, and that was just me with the few possessions I had. I got married and moved to Arizona. My oldest boys were born there, but shortly after the second one came along, I was out of the service and moving our household to Texas. Alone, because my husband was already there.
So, I ended up in another house that was barely holding together, in a small town with few resources and two kids. I was alone every day, all day long, often for several days while my husband worked. No family. No friends. No money.
Then my husband basically forced me to come back home, so I could use my GI bill and go to school (I would have had to drive to Austin or Houston to go to school, which was impossible with two children to care for). I stayed with my parents at first, but my mother is crazy and the stress nearly drove me to suicide. We moved into a run-down trailer with a lazy, sorry landlord (did not know that at first), then to a house with -- you guessed it -- a lazy, sorry, insane landlord.
Husband got kicked out, I moved into yet another run-down wreck of a house, which my landlord promptly lost because he wouldn't pay his VA housing loan. Back in with the parents. Dear God.
Fortunately, I had a decent job, and was able to save enough to get a trailer and move into a trailer park. Don't get me started on the landlord, or the psychopathic neighbors. Eventually was able to move onto some land that my sister was buying, after she decided she didn't want to build a house there.
One thing I swore was that my children would not be uprooted like I was. My oldest boys only switched schools once, and the youngest attended the same schools throughout.
So, now I'm in my twilight years. I'm going on 58. I have no relevant job skills, and ones I do have now are worth minimum wage, even if I could beat out all the younger, healthier men looking for work. I have arthritis, my childhood back injury is acting up, and my knees are bad. Not enough for disability, even if I could get to see a doctor.
What logic would entice me to even try to go back to school, at my age? What reasons would make enough sense for me to sell everything I own just to move somewhere that is not going to be any better for me? I'd be lucky to get $500 for every single thing I own -- all of it old, falling apart, out of date. That includes my van and my trailer.
Where do I go? What work could I do? Maybe if I was thirty years younger, I might do it. But now? At my age? Please.
This post sounds like that bullshit "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" line we hear from the Republicans. People that spout that sort of nonsense here should find somewhere their philosophy fits better.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Excellent rebuttal to the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" claptrap
eridani
(51,907 posts)Person 2713
(3,263 posts)http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/04/27/473096/romney-borrow-money-parents/
It's all possible but many things in many people's life make it improbable from the drawing table on. Like they can't have their spouse stay at their parents house . No house and apts have restrictions on the number that can stay . Or no parents at all.
Your other suggestions like come up with airfare to China for 4 to get to a job . Have a garage sale rent your house . You are only talking to a subset of citizens and don't see the other % as even existing because then it is logic fail
Most undoc immigrants are young and relatively healthy and many don't 'make it 'more than food and a place to sleep for long hours worked which imay be better than what they left and some don't make it to even that.
But calling it ...desert trekking.. really?
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)The first time I had connections in the city where I was moving. The second I used the money from my mother's death benefit to move out of state, and had enough to cover moving expenses, move in costs and rent for a few months. Without either one or the other (preferably both, but mostly money) it would have been damn near impossible for me to leave. Many cities are like those Roach Motels they used to sell to kill bugs. You might be able to get in, but it's extremely hard to get out!
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Credit card. Got one? Got one with enough of an available balance for the fucking DEPOSIT?
What a dick post.
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)Liberal In Texas
(13,612 posts)Never had any fun "relocating"...what a crock.
Now try it when you're over 60. Lots of fun, hey sport?
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)A lot easier if you are collecting SS.
Seniors have retired in other countries very successfully.
$1200 a month in the US won't get you the lifestyle that it does in Mexico, Costa Rica, Thailand, Panama, and other South American and Central American countries.
http://www.retiredbrains.com/senior-living-resources/retirement-locations/retiring-abroad
There are a lot of websites promoting individual countries.
I have traveled to Costa Rica, Panama, Nicarauga. The best advice from a retiree was not to buy but to lease. When buying you are stuck and very difficult to sell, since the locals have a different lifestyle. You are pretty much stuck with having to sell to another Westerner. Politics can change overnight. Leasing you just walk away, if you break the lease, and you have left the country not much they can do.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Easier to relocate if you are collecting SS.
http://www.aarp.org/home-garden/livable-communities/best_places_to_retire_abroad/\
eridani
(51,907 posts)Now what? You haven't explained where the gas money and the first and last month's rent comes from. What kind of arrogant shithead thinks that people getting paid minimum wage are able to save anything?
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)If you are going to relocate to get a minimum wage job, then it is not worth it. I relocated because I had Texas Teacher Certification and an MBA.
If you are working minimum wage jobs part time, then go get free job skills at your local community college or state employment agency. I am sure those classes are also available in your area.
I live in Houston and I am taking free IT courses.
http://www.sanjac.edu/cpd/it-training
eridani
(51,907 posts)Given that half the population of the US is poor or near poor, moving is just for the upper half, right?
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)There is still a demand for IT people.
But if you think that going to school is a waste of time because some one is going to replace you. Then do not go to school.
eridani
(51,907 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)You might give it a whirl sometime. Just for fun.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)otherwise, it can be very costly
My sister rented out her NYC apartment while she was in law school upstate. Renter turned deadbeat. Under NY tenant-protection laws, renter lived there for free -- or rather, at my sister's expense -- for a very, very long and costly time.
Acquaintance here in Maine rented out her inherited house for a year when the housing market was in the tank back around 2008-2009. Renters trashed it -- $8,000 for new boiler, I forget what other minor repairs she says they left her with.
I held a yard sale back in the 08-09 period. Made out pretty well until the last day. 2 middle-class looking women with their 2 teen daughters drove up in a beautiful, shiny white SUV. The moms distracted me on one side of the yard while the daughters stole some of my nicer stuff on the other.
When I first moved here, I hired a local excavator with dozer to repair pasture entry. He came with good local recommendations. $4,000 and 2 years to repair the intentionally inflicted damage on my property. It took me a while to understand that "transplants" are truly not welcome here. The lawyers I talked to laughed at me. The police threatened me with jail for crying on the phone to his wife (who claimed I swore at her).
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I took a VERY large leap similar to yours in 2004 and put my life in the US on hold to move to South Korea for what I thought would be just one year. My situation was pretty grim at the time and had I not made that step, I'm not sure what would have happened. I'm not a person who does things on a whim (and essentially I did just that). I've been here for 11 1/2 years and married a Korean so I don't plan on going back except for visits. My story is a bit extreme, but I also consider myself lucky that things worked out the way they did. It could have very well gone the other way.
Without knowing someone personally it's hard to say whether relocating would be easy or not.
Generic Brad
(14,276 posts)I did this three times in my youth when the internet was not available to the masses. Was it hard? At times. Some things I feared turned out to be nothing to be scared of and things that did not occur to me presented the biggest challenges.
Where you live, what career you choose, who you love - we can always come up with reasons why it is the wrong choice or the wrong move or the timing is off. It comes down to what it is you really want. If we want change, we have the power to make that happen. Sure - there is a chance a move will turn out to be a disaster. But if you don't take the risk, you won't know.
hunter
(38,349 posts)You've never fallen entirely through the cracks, have you?
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
It's not even all that subtle, you need to work on that a bit.
.
Orrex
(63,263 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)What is this about???
polly7
(20,582 posts)tenderfoot
(8,438 posts)knee deep bullshit.