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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTeen brothers accused of killing parents, 3 siblings in Oklahoma massacre
The attacks occurred at the family's home in the town of Broken Arrow, a suburb of Tulsa, late Wednesday night, officials said. About 30 minutes before midnight, the brothers allegedly stabbed all five family members to death. Authorities say a fourth sibling, a 13-year-old girl, sustained serious injuries.
A fifth sibling, a two-year-old girl, was not harmed in the attack.
Police responded to the home after a 911 dispatcher received a phone call from the home, during which no one spoke. Investigators believe the emergency call was made by the injured girl. When officers arrived, they supposedly found Robert Bever, 18, and his 16-year-old brother hiding in woods behind the house.
Why is it that for such a developed country we have so much violence? Whether in public, private or police custody; by gun, knife or strangulation; we kill each other more than similar nations.
I do not expect a one answer to fit all, but I see that as the greater problem than any subset of murder victims.
For all of the victims-
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)That is why it is happening. As long as we allow them to still have power, they will continue to keep a subset of white males in a constant state of anger about the rest of us finally getting some rights. They cannot stand the thought of others having rights. They seem to think the very existence of the GLBT community and women who think for ourselves and other races, most especially AAs, somehow goes against their rights. The only way they want us around is if they can bully us and keep us "in our places." If we have equal rights, they can no longer bully us. Bullying us has been how they "prove their manhood" for ages now. They feel impotent without the ability to get by with the bullying.
Even if these kids hadn't fully bought into that mentality yet, you can bet they had already started thinking along those lines. In the future, all of these shootings and other mass murders will be seen for what they are, the age of the "angry white male" who cannot stand the thought of the rest of us having equal rights.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)I mean it,
sarisataka
(18,883 posts)How angry-white-male-ism would lead to teens killing their family
TBF
(32,118 posts)societal dots. See my post below. It's not just white males though - it's a culture in which violence is revered.
TBF
(32,118 posts)and it is further magnified by white males (and sometimes other males) keeping everyone in line with violence. Violence is revered in this country - from corporal punishment to romanticizing the military. In comparison there are many countries in this world where corporal punishment isn't allowed - http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/ - but in the US children are subjected to violence from the time they are very small. As they get older they are exposed to things like hunting, the military, etc. Churches - especially fundamentalists - affirm this need for control over others (with threats of an eternity in hell if you do not submit to their teachings). And as you say, white males do lead the charge with this although there is a lot of complicity coming from others who back this approach. IMO, it starts from an early age and is very ingrained - with teachers, parents, churches all pushing this mindset. It also has the effect of oppressing people and we see who that benefits (the white males who own most of the assets in our society).
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Do we even know if the boys were subjected to corporal punishment?
You are creating motives out of thin air. It could, just as easily, have been some other instability at the home, mental illness, etc. At this point we are just speculating.
TBF
(32,118 posts)and that is where these folks grow up - surrounded by a culture that glorifies violence. I'm sorry if you can't (or won't) see that.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)correlation between, for example, youth violence and violent media.
I would imagine, especially in cases such as this, family dynamics, insular culture, and other factors would play a greater role.
TBF
(32,118 posts)I spoke about a society that glamorizes violence in multiple ways. You don't need a study for that - all you have to do is open your eyes.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)"Open your eyes" is a useless catchphrase for this situation.
Also, for a society that glorifies violence, we are becoming less violent over time, how do you explain that?
TBF
(32,118 posts)I actually found some theories as to why violent crime is dropping (and overall has dropped significantly since colonial times) on wikipedia of all places:
After World War II, crime rates increased in the United States, peaking from the 1970s to the early 1990s. Violent crime nearly quadrupled between 1960 and its peak in 1991. Property crime more than doubled over the same period. Since the 1990s, however, crime in the United States has declined steeply. Several theories have been proposed to explain this decline:
-The number of police officers increased considerably in the 1990s.
-On September 16, 1994, President Bill Clinton signed the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act into law. Under the act, over $30 billion in federal aid was spent over a six-year period to improve state and local law enforcement, prisons and crime prevention programs.[9] Proponents of the law, including the President, touted it as a lead contributor to the sharp drop in crime which occurred throughout the 1990s, while critics have dismissed it as an unprecedented federal boondoggle.
-The prison population has been expanded since the mid-1970s.
- Starting in the mid-1980s, the crack cocaine market grew rapidly before declining again a decade later. Some authors have pointed towards the link between violent crimes and crack use.
-One hypothesis suggests a causal link between legalized abortion and the drop in crime during the 1990s.
-Changing demographics of an aging population has been cited for the drop in overall crime.
-Another hypothesis suggests reduced lead exposure as the cause; Scholar Mark A.R. Kleiman writes: "Given the decrease in lead exposure among children since the 1980s and the estimated effects of lead on crime, reduced lead exposure could easily explain a very large proportioncertainly more than halfof the crime decrease of the 1994-2004 period. A careful statistical study relating local changes in lead exposure to local crime rates estimates the fraction of the crime decline due to lead reduction as greater than 90 percent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
I dunno (especially about the lead exposure - who knows??). Perhaps statistically we see drops in violent crime, but I am still aware that there is violence all around us. Perhaps this dichotomy is due to a fear-based society in which we seem to always be at war and we see things like these mass shootings with nothing being done to stop them (seemingly). I am not an advocate for all out gun control so don't misunderstand (like Bernie Sanders I don't have a problem with people going hunting - I know most decent hunters eat what they kill over the winter). But I am also unwilling to buy into the "individual loner" theory because this has been an awful lot of individual loners shooting up schools, theaters, etc.
So, what is your take on this? It seems like you are arguing for the "loner" theory, but you haven't really said to I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on causation.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Global, people watch many of the same, movies, tv shows and play many of the same video games. Yet there are wide disparities in levels of violence in these various societies.
In fact I would say that poverty, lack of a safety net, accessibility to lethal weapons, and disparities in education access would have a far more negative affect over levels of.criminal violence than a mainsteam culture that "glorifies violence". The only exception would be subcultures that are explicitly geared towards propogating violence, radical Muslims, white supremacists, other extremists, etc.
moonandsixpence.
(59 posts)I wouldn't even drag the religious connection into this, although there certainly seems to be those who are influenced by it (or at least justify their actions by quoting the Bible)?
I never go to overtly violent movies. I think they are sick. To derive pleasure or entertainment from seeing people assaulted is the hallmark of someone who harbors violent fantasies, even if they have never acted them out. Like all the people who enjoy violent video games. I saw one once and it was evil, IMO.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)insular religious culture, I doubt violent movies and video games have anything to do with it, in addition, there's a negative correlation between exposure(and enjoyment) of such modes of entertainment and violence.
Violence is actually seen as less "offensive" than sex even in our movies. It is so ingrained in our culture that is is seen as normal, really. The entire power structure is based on an built on violence. Anytime something happens that someone doesn't like, violence is the first instinct. For most of us, we can control our impulses. Those who have been made to feel entitled have never been forced to learn to control their impulses. That is why they see mass murder as an option. It is happening too frequently nowadays, far too frequently.
Of course, there are a lot of other factors too. We rarely see an AA guy go on a mass murdering rampage. We rarely see women doing it. We rarely see anyone but these right wing "angry white guys" doing it. They seem to have the least amount of impulse control AND own the most weapons. The change needs to come in the entire mentality in that group. It would lessen the instances of these horrors if they were simply taught even a rudimentary basis of impulse control.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Is "that group" the new, polite way of saying, "those people"?
"I'm not racist but you know how that group is."
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)go right ahead. Some of us disagree with you on that. They are a danger to society, obviously. They have proved it time and again, by doing everything from blowing up a federal building, shooting classrooms full of children, murdering their own families, you name it. If you want to coddle them, go right on ahead. I don't understand why you would want to, though. Seems an odd mentality to want to "protect."
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)The RWers say the exact same thing about Muslims.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Are you calling that long time poster a racist and a RWer? Because it sure looks like it.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)So what did you mean to mean by making that analogy?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I'm not sure what the controversy is.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)like Timothy McVeigh, Dylan Roof, Eric Rudolph, and countless others who have that mentality, people who HAVE committed mass murder. You are making a huge leap there. Why you would defend mass murderers is what is truly weird, especially when the ones I am talking about used mass murder and extreme violence in what amounted to basically a temper tantrum because they weren't getting their way.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)And I'm sure, if asked, they would be happy to provide a list of names of confirmed killers along with the unqualified addendum, "and countless others." And then they would ask you why you are defending them.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)What a great example of bad faith, continue to pretend that you are not calling that long time poster a RWer and a racist (racist about White people?) that sure is making you look clever.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Do RWers make similar statements about Muslims?
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Not that I'm calling you one or the other, of course.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)-none
(1,884 posts)We glorify violence. From movies such as "Inglorious Bastards", to showing a person using a chain saw on a victim hanging from the ceiling in a prime time TV cop show, complete with showing the two parts of the body afterwards.
Even the aftermath of a classroom of dead 7 year olds wasn't enough for us to take any meaningful action to remedy our psychotic fascination with violence.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)What is your opinion of the young African American male who picks up a gun and drives by an inner city playground and fires into a crowd? Or drives by a house that he thinks someone he has beef with lives, but ends up shooting a child instead.
I would think since you've clearly analyzed what makes mass murderers tick, you've also analyzed what causes senseless drive by shootings.....with no coddling of course.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)What is your opinion about the MRA? You know, the hate group composed entirely of whinny misogynistic limp dicks?
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)There may be a few who identify as such who are just ignorant of where the majority of those groups stand. They should get with the program.
Now you can answer my question, even if I wasn't asking you.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)blm
(113,129 posts)adds to the fetishization of violence.
I get your point.
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)sarisataka
(18,883 posts)#onlygundeathsmatter
?
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)sarisataka
(18,883 posts)and so does the NRA, but is it necessary to ignore other deaths as a 'distraction'?
Also as gun violence is a subset of violent crime, it stands to reason that reducing general violence will also reduce gun violence.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Why don't you at least try to focus on what these (and other) deaths mean or are caused by?
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)and violent deaths are sometimes caused by people prone to violence, many of whom should not own firearms or other lethal weapons.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)sunnystarr
(2,638 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)sarisataka
(18,883 posts)Per CDC
2013, United States
Unintentional Cut/pierce Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: W25-W29,W45,W46
Number of
Deaths Population Crude Rate Age-Adjusted Rate**
134 316,128,839 0.04 0.04
2013, United States
Unintentional Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: W32-W34
Number of
Deaths Population Crude Rate Age-Adjusted Rate**
505 316,128,839 0.16 0.16
The overwhelming instrument of accidental death is the ubiquitous automobile.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)That's pretty much how I feel at this point. Not a popular opinion but it's mine.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)A wee bit of thread confusion here... Haha whoops.
Ban knives!
Kali
(55,027 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Haha!
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)sarisataka
(18,883 posts)as do knives, ropes, baseball bats...
So are we going to chase symptoms and keep banning items or do we want to treat the worst symptom but focus on treating the disease?
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Three years ago the #1 weapon for murder here was "knife or sharp edged instrument." But Austin is on the cutting edge of innovation.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Just in case you didn't read the article before posting.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)OKNancy
(41,832 posts)Dad worked from home, they moved around a lot.
FWIW, nice big house in a good neighborhood.
I realize no one looks good in a mug shot, but the 18 year old looks damaged.
I bet there was some bad shit going on in that house.
Response to OKNancy (Reply #16)
closeupready This message was self-deleted by its author.
ghostsinthemachine
(3,569 posts)It's the movies. Bloody gory violence is what sells. even at the movies if you are trying to avoid violence they still show you violent movie trailers.
And the TV. During sporting events that kids are watching, they play violent trailers for violent movies without restriction. The Television is non stop violence. (the show Criminal Minds is on 24 hours a day).
And the Video games.
it is the sporting events that we play that are violent and the games we watch are violent. Hear the backlash against regulating for concussions? No America wants to see blood. the more the better.
The vernacular we use is violent. We killed em! Kicked their ass yes we did!
Non stop violence. Kids go to karate lessons, not music lessons.
There are no peace heroes in this country, only war heroes, real and imagined (Johnny five planes I am talking to you!). The peace heroes we did have (Ghandi, MLK, John Lennon) all met violent ends at the hands of violence peddlers.
Not in this case but in most it is the easy access to guns.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)DVRacer
(707 posts)I live 5 miles away it was so horrific to hear. The oldest boy had to have some major issues and what heard is the story from the 13 year old paints a fundamentalist extreme right wing home. They were not allowed to associate with neighbors and home schooled in deep faith based curriculum that was very anti-government.
udbcrzy2
(891 posts)The surviving 13-year-old will make a good witness.
from your link:
"He has a smirk on his face I don't know if there's any remorse whatsoever based on that picture," Calhoun said of Robert Bever's first mugshot. A second mugshot was taken once he was transferred to Tulsa County.
malaise
(269,254 posts)parents were big time fundies, kids were not allowed to play with anyone - looks like the brothers snapped. Horrific indeed!
TBF
(32,118 posts)by those parents.
This comment: "I don't know that we as rational people can understand how you could have a motive to kill the people that raised you and your siblings," Broken Arrow, Okla., Police Cpl. Leon Calhoun said.
Well, I'll explain it to you Cpl. Calhoun. In a society in which parents can isolate their kids, abuse them, and see violence glorified in many ways around them, this kind of motive can crop up. It's not the norm and I do believe most parents do the best they can (or were taught). But growing up in a poor, rural area of the midwest I saw an incredible amount of domestic violence and some of it was pretty brutal - to the extent that the only rational thought is wondering how someone DIDN'T get killed given the way they were abused on a daily basis (including both children and their mothers).
malaise
(269,254 posts)Thoughtful post.
misterhighwasted
(9,148 posts)Explains why they hid in the woods behind the house, rather than run farther away. What survival skills did they have in the world outside their front door.
How sad.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,405 posts)Police say the suspect explained that the murders were just the beginning of a string of killings planned outside of the family.
Officials aren't sure if a list of possible victims exist or the extent of plans the suspect had.
http://www.ktul.com/story/29619276/police-release-names-of-parents-suspect-in-broken-arrow-murders
Sources said the shipment contained boxes of ammunition. Police said they can't comment on it because of the investigation. They also said if the younger brother didn't call 911 the teens could have had more time before being arrested.
Police said either the 12- or 7-year-old brother of the accused teens made the 911 call that led police to their home.
"He did save the life of his 13-year-old sister and his two-year-old sister and possibly many others after that," said Corporal Leon Calhoun with Broken Arrow police.
- See more at: http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/five-dead-broken-arrow-homicide/nm5LJ/#sthash.4G8ekpcN.dpuf
Could be coincidence about the ammunition.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Maybe the were getting a shipment of Ginsus too
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)are played out endlessly in the American culture. Much of it is learned behavior in a rut of violence and people act out.
Warpy
(111,417 posts)This was a closed family. Kids stayed together outside, never played with neighbors, were home schooled. Neighbors only saw the family, never interacted. Man of the house was a cipher at work, did his job without socializing.
Similar cases have happened in similar families, there have been a couple of them here in NM since I've lived here.
It's always so sad when it happens because it seems so preventable.
Even frontier children with full loads of chores weren't raised in isolation.
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)Such a horrible act.
Rest in peace
Person 2713
(3,263 posts)for life
Austin Mahan grew up just down the street from the home, and says he grew up with the seven children.
"All the kids are homeschooled, and they all stay in the house, Mahan said. So they don't get their social needs met. I'm just not surprised."
Lack of socialization , home schooling , religious rigors do not obviously lead to murder but could have been part of the twist
Also the mom locked the a/c . Someone was stealing freon. So they could have been high too
Don't know what kind of high freon gives but people do it I know