to the Vegans that say "you are as bad as the Lion Killer"

[DonCoquixote]

Look, I can get the fact that factory farms need to be watched, and if my admittedly officially "poverty" budget can afford organic, I try to (though I have better luck with the farmer's stands.) However, the reason the safari creatures are off in preserves is because they are in danger of being EXTINCT.

No cows or chickens are in danger of extinction. No one is looking at telling their grandchildren " I remember before Cows became extinct. here were once birds called chickens."

When you adapt a battle position and abandon logic, it will not help you in the long run. Especially hen people realize that as bad as factory farming is, there does need to be an alternative that will not starve people.

[closeupready]

1. Aren't chickens basically the modern Tyrannosaurus Rex?

That is, the form of life living today most closely related to the TR?

Don't mess with the chicken. He will cut you. That's why he's been around such a long time.

[Kaleva]

84. Jurassic Park would have been more realistic had they used chickens.

During a preview tour, a theme park suffers a major power breakdown that allows its Rhode Island Reds to run amok.

[Archae]

2. That long thread began by the vegan evangelist is turning brown...

From all the vegan bullshit in it.

Don't want to eat meat, fine.

Try to stop me from eating meat, bite me.

[oberliner]

10. I am not a vegan evangelist

I have almost never made any comment on that subject in my many years posting at DU.

The outpouring of empathy towards the murdered lion and the extreme level of antipathy directed at the dentist motivated me to remind people that what goes on at factory farms is also monstrous.

I used needless hyperbole to express myself, which I guess is due to how emotional I am about the topic, but I tried my best to be reasonable and courteous in my responses and follow up comments.

[frazzled]

19. I think the lesson is ...

that hyperbole is the least effective means of convincing people of anything. We're not stupid, and so it angers and drives people in the exact opposite direction.

[DonCoquixote]

22. we have a winner

thank you for making my point better than I did.

[Paladin]

29. Bullseye. Thank you, frazzled. (nt)

[SidDithers]

33. Well said...

Sid

[Thor_MN]

31. There's something funny in telling a vegan "Bite me"..

But I'm too tired to find a good punchline...

[AngryDem001]

41. As a meat eater, I WILL bite you!

Since you are technically meat!

[whatchamacallit]

3. If lions were good eating we'd find a way to breed and slaughter them n/t

[Avalux]

4. You lost me on the last sentence.

Do you think that without factory farming, people will starve, or are you saying that meat eaters have this perception?

Either way, there would be MORE food for people if we didn't factory farm and people stopped eating meat. And no, people do not need to eat meat to be healthy. We'd be just fine - better off - without it.

[DonCoquixote]

23. well, prove it

There is nothing that proves that organic farming can feed people as well as factory farms. If you want to say no meat eating, then you can practice that, and even evangelize it, but to go ahead and speak as if there are not people wh depend on the modern farm to eat is cavalier.

[passiveporcupine]

32. We don't need to stop eating meat

We need to end factory farming as it is done today and reduce the amount of meat we consume in most American diets. We need to reduce it by a lot for most people. And we need to allow all farm raised animals free range. No more cages and lack of sunlight and crowding and filthy living conditions.

Also, as I said in another post on this issue, unless we stop having dogs and cats as pets, we will never end the need for meat.

[LanternWaste]

5. Anyone who equates me with someone that is actually entertained by killing

Anyone who equates me with someone that is actually entertained by killing a sentient, endangered species for simple sport is half-witted... at best. A fundie (by its most basic definition) at worst-- and in either case, most certainly a person who could use more hugs and desires more attention.

[geek tragedy]

6. "especially hen people" sometimes misspellings work!

K&R

[awoke_in_2003]

53. what are you clucking about?

[geek tragedy]

54. Are you egging me on? nt

[awoke_in_2003]

56. just pecking you a bit. nt

[geek tragedy]

57. Don't get cocky nt

[awoke_in_2003]

59. Ruffled some feathers?

[geek tragedy]

64. Omelette you have the last word. nt

[awoke_in_2003]

66. I am scrambling for more puns. nt

[cwydro]

7. I love my ladies.

They lay delicious eggs, and they are free as birds (pun intended).

I could never eat a factory egg again.

[Hekate]

71. Same here; 3 hens. But vegans want us to give up dairy and eggs as well as flesh and fish.

Last edited Fri Jul 31, 2015, 02:22 PM - Edit history (1)

My son and his wife are vegans at home and lacto-ovo vegetarians elsewhere. That works well for me when they're in my home, as I've known how to cook for vegetarians my whole adult life.

My son said it very well: "I'm a vegan, but I try not to be an asshole about it."

There are waaaaay too many assholes in the vegan community. I find fundamentalist and fanatics a huge turn-off.

[cwydro]

73. They so seem to have a kind of

holier than thou attitude.

It's very grating.

[cwydro]

74. Dupe

[TheCowsCameHome]

8. Save your breath

Veggie munchers don't want to hear it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7023345


Trust me on that.

[oberliner]

14. As the one who started that thread, I very much do want to hear it

The purpose of posting at DU is to discuss.

Granted sometimes we get carried away by hyperbole and rhetoric.

In any case, I learned a lot from the responses that that thread I started so thank you to all who responded.

[TheCowsCameHome]

34. No you don't.

You called meat and egg eaters accessories to murder, animal cruelty, and torture, among other things. And on top of that, you alerted.

That's some "discussion"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7023345

Gotta run, my burger is almost ready...........

[oberliner]

68. I absolutely do

I only alerted on the very small number of posts that I felt involved personal attacks (3, I think).

My OP itself was alerted on as well, and I respect and appreciate how it could have come across as deserving of an alert.

I have written repeatedly on this thread that my post was needlessly hyperbolic due to my perhaps overly strong feelings on this subject.

I also corrected my use of the term "murder" as it was pointed out to be incorrect (murder only applies to humans killing humans).

For the most part I've been enriched by the responses that challenged my perspective on this subject and I appreciate those who responded thoughtfully, in spite of the rude way I worded my OP.

At least from my perspective there has been some really valuable discussion with many who responded.

[Rex]

9. A few people seem to turn into cult members when you threaten their worldview.

The logic and reasoning here lately has been non-existent. We have people getting mad that DU GD is showing TOO MUCH compassion toward a wild animal. Which is FUNNY, since the only other people I know that gets mad over people showing compassion are republicans...

Oh well, not too hard to figure out imo.

[oberliner]

13. I enjoy having my world view challenged

It's one of my favorite things about DU.

With respect to the thread involving veganism that I started, I feel like I learned a lot from the folks who took the time to respond and thoughtfully shared their dissenting perspective.

Even some of the less courteous posts that were a little snarky towards me were funny and/or instructive.

You wrote a response for example that made me reflect back on my posting history to see why I may have given off the impression that you shared.

I would also point out that I whole-heartedly support showing compassion toward any animal, wild or domestic.

[Rex]

18. Posting over the top dogma kinda gets a negative response most of the time.

You seem to be extremely intelligent and I apologize for whatever stupid shit I said (I admit I do that a lot) that made your thread disruptive. Can we just say that over the top rhetoric will ALWAYS get you a small amount of shit in return?

IF I started a thread, "If you don't drive a car, you are part of the problem and a murder." I would expect to get many negative replies and some could deduce I wanted it that way.

Now when it comes to POV, I never keep mine held close to my chest - I approach the world understanding a tiny fraction of what exists out there and hunger for more knowledge. Almost each year I change my POV in some way. Someone comes along and convinces me that I am wrong and they are right.

It doesn't hurt, no blood is shed...just a fact - I don't know everything. Nobody does. It is painless to those that seek out knowledge and I guess very hurtful to the others that are myopic toward change in their world view.

Really I am tired of seeing GD turned into META with all the disruptive garbage that only belongs in META (not talking about you, more along the lines of the newest flamefest in GD). That detracts from this place, at least IMO.

I support hunting and hunters that feed their families with what they killed that day...America might not have to worry about such an issue as much as 3rd world countries. However, it is just not viable for some poor countries to do anything but hunt for the family dinner.

If they could grow fruits and veges...you better believe they would. Some just cannot nor do they live in a wealthy nation that can at will decide to pick what they want out of the vending machine.

[oberliner]

69. Understood

I regret the wording that I chose when posting the OP and will hopefully be able to learn form this experience moving forward.

[cui bono]

27. That's what's happening here with the "threat" to someone's eating habits.

Justifying torture just because there are more of the species to torture? Huh? That doesn't make any sense at all.

When you know what factory farming is and does, you absolutely should attempt to at least lessen the need for it. If you have any compassion at all that is.

[Rex]

45. I agree with the factory farming and do believe it should be illegal.

But to pretend mankind spent millions of years 'torturing' other animals so we could evolve is dishonest. The ate them to survive, like many people still to this day do all around the world.

That is why I am pro-hunting for you food and anti-factory farms, they are places of horrendous abuse toward livestock on this we both agree 100%.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

35. Between vaccines, GMOs, and Vegans...

...the anti-science crowd has been rather loud, lately. Maybe hoping to jump on the Bernie Mass Movement (TM).*

*I do NOT mean that in any way against Bernie Sanders, just the influx of certain "supporters".

[Codeine]

46. Please don't lump vegans into the anti-science club.

I'm a vegan; have been for over a quarter-century. I have zero issues with GMOs and believe firmly in mandatory vaccinations. I hold alt-med in the contempt it so richly deserves, I think homeopathic "doctors" should be jailed for fraud, and I flush the toilet after I take a fucking leak.

That said, I don't like the idea that animals should die so I can have a snack. It's cruel, unnecessary, and environmentally unsustainable.

[Rex]

50. 'I don't like the idea that animals should die so I can have a snack.' What's for dinner?

You and I are lucky and don't have to hunt to feed our family every night. Billions around the world still do and must to live. I appreciate we live in a country lucky enough that we can walk or ride to the store for all the food we will ever need. And that we have the right land to grow food all year around.

Some are not there yet.

I agree...vegans and science-woo don't even belong in the same field. One is just people trying to live a healthier lifestyle AND be planet friendly...the other is full of self-ish assholes that lose their kids to old diseases that were easily preventable.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

75. I was referring to the particular poster who equated omnivores with Cecil's killer

and those who defended him.

Those who don't eat meat for moral reasons (and don't try to argue any sort of science in support of their reasons) are A-OK in my book!

:cheers:

[Gregorian]

11. Not to mention lions are totally ruthless killing machines.

So the notion of a kinder world is rather silly, even though I subscribe to it.

[oberliner]

12. Speaking as the person who began the OP that I think you mean

I understand that cows and chickens are not in danger of extinction and that lions are.

My point is that the factory farms (where 99 percent of farm animals are raised) involve severe cruelty towards millions upon millions of animals.

I am not sure why the empathy one feels for Cecil cannot be extended to a cow, chicken, or pig (even though they are far from endangered species) who is raised in a factory farm.

Many people, upon learning of the the dentist killing Cecil, were moved to speak out strongly against the barbarity of trophy hunting.

My view is that, upon learning of the realities of what goes on in factory farms across the US, people would similarly be moved to speak out strongly against that barbarity (as I sometimes do).

[hfojvt]

16. 99 percent?

Are you saying that almost all farms are "factory farms"?

[oberliner]

20. The figure is from the ASPCA

A factory farm is a large, industrial operation that raises large numbers of animals for food. Over 99% of farm animals in the U.S. are raised in factory farms, which focus on profit and efficiency at the expense of the animals’ welfare.

https://www.aspca.org/fight-cruelty/farm-animal-cruelty/what-factory-farm

[hfojvt]

42. I still do not believe it

What is their source? And how do they define "large" and "industrial"?

Here are stats from 2002 - which is apparently the most recent source I can find.
http://www.census.gov/statab/ccdb/cc07_tabA14.pdf

2.13 million farms in the US
35% of them less than 50 acres
15.9% of them 500 acres or more.
Average size of farm 441 acres.

Average farm size in South Dakota - 1,380 acres. Where 49% of the farms had over 500 acres. Those are large farms, but they aren't corporate, not most of them.

Using a number like 99% seems to me to make ZERO distinction between a corporate farm and a large family farm, or even a medium sized family farm. I don't buy it.

[oberliner]

49. This is number of animals, not number of farms

Perhaps that explains the discrepancy?

[hfojvt]

51. no it does not

the point is that those small and medium sized farms have lots and lots of animals too, and so do some family farms that are fairly large.

I was hoping I could find some sort of breakdown for sales from large farms, but that link does not provide those details. I have an actual City/County book from 1972 which gives some details for sales from larger farms, but that was long ago and far away.

I know there are very large pig and chicken operations and doubtless cattle too, and milk and whatever, but I cannot believe it is anywhere near 99%. 49% I could believe. Even 60%, but 99%? I think that is mixing a whole lot of apples and oranges.

[oberliner]

52. The 99 percent figure is pretty widely cited

As one example, this is from an article in The Atlantic:

My answer actually starts with factory farming—which produces 99 percent of the meat we eat.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2010/12/why-free-range-meat-isnt-much-better-than-factory-farmed/67569/

If you do a Google search I think you will find that figure used frequently.

I based my initial claim on seeing the figure cited by the ASPCA, which is a source that I trust.

If you have any links to contrary information, I would be curious to see them.

[jeff47]

63. "Obama is a Kenyan-born Muslim" is also widely-cited.

Citations, especially on the Internet, are not a good measure of truth.

[oberliner]

65. Not by reputable sources

I tried to use reputable and generally well-respected sources.

If there is a good source that has a different figure, I am definitely open to finding the correct information and telling the ASPCA that their information is inaccurate if that turns out to be the case.

[hfojvt]

78. I don't have the same level of trust for the ASPCA

or necessarily for anybody.

Especially on a number that is hard to believe, that 10,000 farms produce 99% and 990,000 farms produce only 1% but I am hardly an expert in ag economics.

[oberliner]

79. Fair enough - but they are a pretty high profile organization

If they are lying about that number, I would think someone would have called them out on it.

If you can point me to a source that contradicts their figure, I myself would contact the ASPCA and ask them to explain why they have something on their website whose accuracy has been disputed.

[Glassunion]

76. You are lowballing. It is higher than you think.

According to current methodology, a factory farm (for livestock) will qualify as a factory farm, if they have a head count over the following numbers.

Hogs and Pigs - 1000 head sold
H&P sold in 2012 Total: 199,115,305
Total Number of Farms: 55,882
Number of farms with more than 1000 head sold: 12,152
Total sold by those farms: 196,654,034
Percentage: 98.7%

Chicken (broilers) - 500,000 head sold
Chicken sold in 2012 Total: 8,463,194,794
Total number of Farms: 32,935
Number of farms with more than 500,000 sold: 6,332
Total sold by those farms: 5,771,012,472
Percentage: 68.1%

Beef cattle - 500 or more beef cattle "on feed"
Beef Cattle on feed sold in 2012 Total: 25,468,575
Total number of Farms: 33,880
Number of farms with more than 500 sold: 3,413
Total sold by those farms: 22,952,006
Percentage: 90.1%

Now the census does not differentiate between inventory and sales. So you could have a factory farm that sold less than the threshold to be considered a "factory farm", however they have an inventory above that threshold (which would be excluded from the above summary). Basically, those percentage numbers in reality are all higher.

You can see more census data at: http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/

[hfojvt]

77. without data, I was only guessing

but I am not sure I like those lines.

How many family farms sell over 1,000 pigs? I notice that the average sold by those large farms is 16,182 per farm. So a farm that sells 1,010 pigs is going to be lumped together as a factory farm with one that sells 30,000?

Again with cows, the average sold by the large farms is 6,700 per farm, but 500 cattle certainly does seem like a large farm.

I am surprised by the small number of farms though. Only 56,000 pig farms? Only 33,000 chicken farms? and 34,000 cattle farms?

I thought there were something like 1.2 million farms above 50 acres. Most of them must be crops only.

Thanks for getting ag census numbers. For some reason I didn't think I could find that online. The chicken numbers were about what I expected, but in that case it's hard for me to see a farm that sells, say 450,000 chickens as a family (non-corporate) farm.

[Sunlei]

81. It's the word 'farm'. Most people picture old McDonalds farm & don't visualise 3,000

dairy cows, along with their 3,000 yearly calves, the 'industry' calls a 'farm' these days.

In my opinion factory farms because of the technology needed, the expected animal loss due to overcrowding and the push for high profit margins are what makes todays foods more expensive.

for fun here's a smaller goat dairy, less then 200? (note the dog and the male goat gets a stall too)

heres a much larger dairy with technology "swifto goat rotary", about 1,800 animals, note how crowded the animals are, penned indoors and the mention is for increased profits. (none of the 3,000 animal 'farms' have public videos to view because of the bad conditions for the animals)

[uppityperson]

17. Or to the nests of mice and birds mowed down by the combines cutting crops.

[oberliner]

21. That is a great point

We ought to do as much as we can to not contribute to that cruelty either.

I appreciate you raising awareness to an issue that many people don't even think about.

[DonCoquixote]

24. I refer you to a poem "to a mousie"

By rober burns, done when his humble plow overturned a mouse. My point is that mice got overturned.

BY the way. that poem is where you get the line "the best laid plans of mice and men often go wrong." Veganism is one such plan.

[yewberry]

83. Bear in mind, however,

that the majority of crops are grown to feed livestock.

[olddots]

15. My body is a temple

Of doom !

[cui bono]

25. So you justify torture just because there are more to torture?

[navarth]

36. +1

I know better than to get into an argument with a meat eater. I was one myself for a long time.

But the extinction argument is spurious IMO. Not that my opinion matters.

I have come to the conclusion that these innocent animals are capable of fear, suffering and despair. To inflict it on them is pure evil. But I don't kid myself that anybody's going to care about my opinion. And I'm fine with that. All I can do is set an example and do what I think is right.

But it tears me up thinking about all those innocent creatures being murdered so some slob human can have his/her burger. Hell yeah it tastes good. But I'm not so selfish anymore that I won't think about where it came from.

Anybody want to flame me for that? Don't bother. I'm not going to try and change your mind and you damn sure won't change mine.

[restorefreedom]

58. i can't improve on this. nt

[bigwillq]

26. Since when does anyone care what the vegans have to say

or the meat eaters, or the liquid lunch folks.

I eat and drink what I want.
You should too.

Enjoy.

[cui bono]

28. So you don't believe in being responsible or compassionate?

The lack of caring about the world and other living beings on a supposedly progressive site is astounding.

[navarth]

37. +1 again

Yes it is sort of astounding, especially among supposedly enlightened people. But I can't change it.

[oberliner]

67. Were you troubled by the actions of the dentist who shot the lion?

If so, why?

Just curious.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

30. Reminds me of what I saw on 'the Cycle' earlier in a way.

The supposedly progressive foursome were generally 'all of this angst over the death of a lion' is too much. But that ignores the fact that there are fewer than 30000 remaining African lions. Killing even one would remove the same percentage of their population as killing over 230k humans would affect the earth's population. Throw in the six cubs expected to die without it's protection, and it's the equivalent of killing over a million and a half humans.

That sort of 'who cares about a lion' attitude is why so many species don't exist any more.

[anniebelle]

39. This 'who cares' attitude is going to be the extinction of humans.

If we keep up our unbridled consumption, there will not be enough to feed the overpopulation of this planet. Eat all you want, it will become the real 'hunger games' if we stay on our present course.

[skepticscott]

47. It would be more to the point

to say that far too much angst is being expressed over the killing of one lion by one person when you consider how many issues of far greater importance should be getting more attention.

It's not so much "who cares about a lion" as it is "why are people who never cared about lions before more worked up about this one than they are about most human beings?" The fact that you make the lives of seven lions of equal value to a million and a half humans just proves the point.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

72. I don't recall ever being polled to my attitudes about lions.

So how could anyone claim that I've never cared about lions before?

But I'm pretty sure I've been on record for decades as being against trophy hunting of any sort, even 'catch and release' fishing which causes injury and pain. Ditto being pro-endangered species, and ditto noting that the source of most of our problems is human overpopulation.

[Enthusiast]

38. We need to strictly regulate the large scale farming of food animals.

There is no justification for what is unnecessary cruelty. Farm size should also be limited so that waste does not accumulate to an unmanageable level.

We get our chicken eggs from people we know that raise limited numbers of free range chickens. These eggs have bright yellow yolks. Grocery store eggs have a pale yellow, sickly looking yolk. We should encourage small scale local farming where at all possible.

Additionally there should be far greater scrutiny of farm workers. Some farm workers are working for less than the minimum wage. These workers are also often working far too many hours.

We cannot do these things if there is a constant downward pressure on regulation and inspection as a result of Republican office holders.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

40. I think any factory farms should have cameras in all areas where humans interact with animals.

Cameras whose feed goes out live to anyone offsite who wants to monitor them for abuses. No more of this crap about treating people as terrorists for videotaping abuses at factory farms.

[Enthusiast]

70. Yes, I agree. Contrast clandestine videotaping of factory farms with

the near total surveillance of the American people for so-called national security purposes. Somehow the government is allowed to see everything but the people are not even allowed to see what is obvious abuse.

Things suck in this country where we must bow to the corporate overlords at every turn. Government interests and corporate interests are often now indistinguishable.

[MJJP21]

43. Creatures with a face

I can't for the life of me understand the reasoning for the continuation of eating meat. First off the human body is designed to eat vegetarian. It is no secret that the human colon is much longer than the average meat eater which means that meat and all its added hormones , drugs and carcinogens stays in the human body much longer than is healthy. Secondly it has been well documented that cows and pigs both in particular exhibit emotions of sadness and empathy for their young. They know when they are going to be killed. My question to all of you is this: is there is no God is it still moral to eat another animal considering you are no better?

[navarth]

62. +1. nt

[Deadshot]

44. Organic farming isn't even a viable option when 7.3 billion mouths need to be fed.

It works as a small-scale practice and that's it.

I agree with your premise. I don't like being preached to about my diet. I will continue to eat meat guilt-free.

[Roy Rolling]

48. Why pick on Vegans?

It shows the original post, though perhaps rude, is spot on. Those who are non-meat eaters are vegetarians, vegans espouse refraining from milk and all other animal by-products. So targeting vegans is not very precise in this discussion, either. And it demonstrates, rightly or wrongly, the need to be more informed if there is to be a rational discussion.

But to top it off, the essence of the post is true--there is a cognitive dissonance between the outcry for the animals we slaughter voluntarily and the outcry for a single lion slaughtered named "Cecil". Being extremely upset over a lion murder but unaffected over millions of animals slaughtered for food is certainly a topic of interest for its curiosity, if nothing else. It doesn't mean meat-eaters are bad people, it just means there is a disconnect between the concept of a tasty steak and the reality that it was once a living animal until violently killed. We just don't think about it.

But as pointed out, hyperbole and rudeness are unwarranted---on both sides.

[restorefreedom]

60. and the animals we "love" and the animals some eat

are very similar in their physical and emotional makeup. They have the capacity to feel tremendous pain, separation from family members, and emotional suffering at their impending death. One only needs to hear one time the bellow of the mother when her little calf is taken away from him to become a veal calf and you will never forget it.

[Katashi_itto]

55. Think I will have a burger

[bravenak]

61. I'm hungry now.nt

[freshwest]

82. At times I think we are encouraged to be vegans, etc. to be healthy menu items for space aliens.

Just another take from the realms of futuristic science fiction that were once relegated to the twilight zone. Most of which is no longer fiction, but accepted as a part of our daily lives. Just sayin'

[bravenak]

85. Lol!!!

Menu items.

[freshwest]

86. Yes! Eat organic! No GMO! No pesticide! Fresh air, water and exercise. Like livestock! What if the

Republicans made a deal with space aliens?

Does that not remind you of one of those 'good ol' boys' GOP?

Why are they in such a hurry to get so rich by looting the planet?

For who or what are they doing it for if they are still invested in being here?

Just sayin'

[bravenak]

87. I love that movie!!!

Yeah, maybe they are farmin us.

Selling the choice specimins to aliens on Pluto.

[Sunlei]

80. a couple, one or two hens and you'll never starve