Homeopathy had No Place in Pharmacy: Canadian Pharmacist

[tammywammy]

A Canadian pharmacist has slammed the sale of homeopathic remedies in community pharmacy, stating that homeopathy and science are mutually exclusive.

“Retail pharmacies have a sugar pill problem,” writes Scott Gavura, an Ontario pharmacist, on the Science-Based Pharmacy blog.

“To understand why homeopathy has no place in a pharmacy, it’s essential to understand how homeopathy differs from other forms of complementary and alternative medicine,” he writes.

Homeopathy is often misunderstood as a natural medicine similar to herbalism, he writes; this is encouraged by marketing of the products as a “gentle” or “natural” system of healing, and “putting cryptic terms like ‘30C’ beside long Latin names of what appears to be the active ingredients”.

“In reality, there is little likelihood that a homeopathic remedy contains even a single molecule of any listed ingredient. So while there may be hundreds of homeopathic remedies in a pharmacy, they are chemically indistinguishable, usually containing just sugar and water.

http://ajp.com.au/news/homeopathy-has-no-place-in-pharmacy-canadian-pharmacist/

[Lil Missy]

1. I've always considered it quackery. n/t

[AikidoSoul]

18. Like so many on DU, you have closed your mind. DU in general seems to have

a stubborn blind spot when it comes to toxic injury, and to alternative medicine.

My family has studied and used homeopathy for decades on ourselves and our animals. We are in good company. Royal families all over the world have used homeopathy for centuries, and still do. The British Royal family has a "house homeopathic doctor" as well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/prince-charles/10433939/Prince-Charles-and-homeopathy-crank-or-revolutionary.html

It does require much study, and that is one of the reasons why most doctors, except my own MD, have no patience to study its use. But the main reason it has gone by the wayside is because of the old man John D. Rockefeller, who used homeopathy for himself and his family, (he even had his own homeopathic physician), was hellbent on destroying it for the rest of the country. At the time the USA had hundreds of schools of medicine that taught homeopathy. Why did Rockefeller want to destroy this treatment modality? So he could profit handsomely from his substantial pharmaceutical investments. So he commissioned what is called the "Flexner Report" and through Congress, almost completely destroyed homeopathy in this country. Europe still uses homeopathy far more than here in the US.

Rockefeller's commissioned FLEXNER REPORT on homeopathy:

http://freedom-articles.toolsforfreedom.com/flexner-report-rockefeller-ama-takeover/


A Condensed History of Homeopathy:

https://www.homeopathic.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Homeopathy/A_Condensed_History_of_Homeopathy.html

Famous admirers and users of homeopathy:

http://www.vitalforce.in/famousadmirersofhomeopathy.html

[NYC Liberal]

23. Link to a scientific, peer-reviewed study, please.

And as proof of homeopathy not being bullshit, you cite the fact that "royal families" have used it? Really?

[AikidoSoul]

32. There are literally hundreds of peer reviewed papers plus a "discovery" by a Nobel Laureate

scientist Professor Luc Montagnier with an article quote about that just below this comment. Of course what the professor discovered had already been discovered two hundred years ago, but he was able to demonstrate that it was in fact true: http://www.naturalnews.com/029940_homeopathy_scientist.html

SNIP

"Until Montagnier's research, the bulk of mainstream doctors and scientist had maintained that there was no scientific way that multiple dilutions used in homeopathy could possibly work. In part, such views stemmed from lack of understanding. In larger part, such views likely stemmed from a desire to stem the rising popularity of homeopathy and eliminate it as a competition to mainstream medicine - much the same as happened in the United States a century ago.

One of the foundations of homeopathy maintains that the potency of a substance is increased with its dilution. Montagnier discovered that solutions containing the DNA of viruses and bacteria "could emit low frequency radio waves" and that such waves influence molecules around them, turning them into organized structures. The molecules in turn emit waves and Montagnier found that the waves remain in the water even after it has been diluted many times. To a lay person, that may not mean much, but to a scientist is highly suggests that homeopathy may have a scientific basis."

SNIP

If you understand Quantum Phyisics, you might understand how homeopathic remedies work.

++++++++++++++++++
TI: The similia principle as a therapeutic strategy: a research program on stimulation of self-defense in disordered mammalian cells.
AU: Van-Wijk-R; Wiegant-FA
SO: Altern-Ther-Health-Med. 1997 Mar; 3(2): 33-8
ISSN: 1078-6791
PY: 1997
LA: ENGLISH
AB: The similia principle is considered to be the essence of homeopathy. This article describes a research program for study of the similia principle in cultured mammalian cells. This systematic program with its rather simple research model was set up ultimately to contribute to the design of studies of the similia principle with more complex organisms such as humans. With respect to application of the similia principle, the concepts of self-defense and self-recovery are central. At the cellular level, self-defense and recovery largely depend on the availability of proteins with a cell-protective function, most notably, stress or heat shock proteins. To study the similia principle, we use four lines of research to examine the processes of self-defense. First, stimulation of self-defense in disturbed and disordered cells is studied by using low doses of an agent homologous or identical to the disturbing agent. The second line of research deals with the specificity of this stimulation: Is cellular self-defense after exposure to toxicant A also effectively stimulated in an analogous or heterologous way by low doses of other toxicants such as B or C? The third line of research involves the duration of low-dose sensitivity of disordered cells for homologous stimulations, in particular, the desensitization of cells toward these homologous stimulations. The fourth line of research deals with whether-according to the similia principle-the state of desensitization can be overruled by heterologous condition(s) that induce an analogous pattern of protector proteins (ie, a pattern closely resembling the damage-induced pattern) and thus effectively stimulate cellular defense and recovery.
AN: 97215640
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE MAIN PROBLEM IS GETTING TO THE TRUTH WHEN BIG PROFITS ARE INVOLVED. AS IN POLITICS, the same is true with BIG PHARMA. Money rules. Most "studies" are performed by the chemical/pharmaceutical companies who like old man John Rockefeller, do not want homeopathic remedies as competition for dollars.

Of course you can look here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23290875

Then there is the matter of funding. Most homeopathic remedies cost pennies, compared to the cost of petrochemical/ coal tar based drugs. How to get funding when profits are so tiny?

Here's what the BRITISH HOMEOPATHIC ORGANIZATION has to say about that topic:

http://www.britishhomeopathic.org/evidence/

SNIP

The body of evidence that exists shows that much more investigation is required – 44% of all the randomised controlled trials carried out have been positive, 5% negative and 47% inconclusive. Unfortunately, homeopathy does not attract large amounts of funding. More funding is required to conduct high quality trials using suitable research methods. At present, for example, only 63 of the 188 RCT papers have studied classical, individualised homeopathy; each of the other 125 RCT papers has investigated the effect of one selected homeopathic medicine.

For a more in-depth review of the entire evidence base, including the negative and inconclusive trials, visit the research section of the Faculty of Homeopathy website.

[Archae]

37. Natural News? Really?

The go-to web site for just about any and every "health" kook out there?

http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2010/05/1-mike-adams.html

[AikidoSoul]

40. I think it's silly to consider ad hominem attacks from blogs

as evidence that anyone is a "kook".

Putting someone down by calling them names, instead of citing specific behaviors and documented facts... is well,
"Archae-ic".

[Archae]

43. Fine, then show some actual evidence.

Which so far you have failed to do.

Testimonials, even from the Royal family, are worthless.

"Standing on my head singing Dixie while holding two crystals cured my arthritis!"
"Ow ow ow..."



Natural News and the guy who runs it, hate science.
I mean really hate it.

Especially since science shows that homeopathy is pure bullshit.

http://skepdic.com/homeo.html

[AikidoSoul]

47. FAUX "News" has much in common with "Quackbusters", Stephen Barrett, American Council on Science and

Health, and other similar propaganda organizations.

These individuals and organizations are funded by corporations dependent on the money they would
lose if the truth was known. One big example is The American Council on Science and Health (ACSH) -- a front organization for the chemical/pharmaceutical companies and other industries that have much to lose via chemical injury. ACSH receives its financial support from those industries. This is well documented below via the Center for Science in the Public Interest and the PR Watch group.

There is also a very interesting expose' on ACSH by Consumers Reports in an article entitled "Forefront of Industry or Just a Front." ASCH members are industry shills. ACSH does not invite anyone on the board or into its membership if they are honestly pursuing links between toxic chemicals and neurological damage and disease. ACSH's job is to continually twist the truth and paint all environmentalists as misguided fanatics. ACSH thinks homeopathy is a scam.

Center for Science in the Public Interest has an excellent web site showing lists of scientists, non-profits, universities -- etc., with ties to industry -- including ACSH --at:
http://www.cspinet.org/integrity/corp_funding.html

Here is what CSPI has to say on American Council on Science and Health (ACSH):

(Please note that the orgs are listed in alphabetical order).


AMERICAN COUNCIL ON SCIENCE AND HEALTH
The following groups have contributed to ACSH in the past according to ACSH’s 1991 annual report. ACSH stopped disclosing corporate donors in the early 1990s.
$25,000 and above
American Cyanamid Company
Anheuser-Busch Foundation
General Electric Foundation
Rollin M. Gerstacker Foundation
ICI Agricultural Products, Inc.
ISK Biotech Corporation
Kraft, Inc.
Monsanto Fund
The NutraSweet Company
John M. Olin Foundation, Inc.
Pfizer, Inc.
Sarah Scalfe Foundation Incorporated
The Starr Foundation
$15,000 to $24,000
Archer Daniels Midland Company
Carnation Company
Ciba-Geigy Corporation
Ethyl Corporation
Exxon Corporation
General Mills, Inc.
Heublein Inc.
Hiram Walker-Allied Vintners
Johnson & Johnson
Kellogg Company
The Esther A. and Joseph Klingenstein Fund, Inc.
Malysian Palm Oil Promotion Council
National Starch and Chemical Foundation, Inc.
PepsiCo Foundation Inc.
Union Carbide Corporation
$10,000 to $14,999
Aetna Foundation, Inc.
The Bristol-Myers Squibble Foundation, Inc Chevron Corporation Dow Chemical U.S.A E. I. DuPont De Nemours & Company FMC Foundation The Gerber Companies Foundation Hershey Foods Corporation Fund Thomas J. Lipton Foundation, Inc National Agricultural Chemicals Association National Soft Drink Association The Procter & Gamble Fund Rohm & Haas Company Joseph R. Seagram &Sons, Inc Searle Charitable Trust Shell Oil Company Foundation Sterling Winthrop Inc The Sugar Association, Inc.
Uniroyal Chemical Company, Inc.
$5,000 to $9,999
Alcoa Foundation
Allied-Signal Foundation Inc.
Amax Foundation, Inc.
The Becton Dickinson Foundation
Campbell Soup Fund
Cargrill Fertilizer Division
The Coca-Cola Company
Cooper Industries Foundation
Supporting Member
Consolidated Edison Company of New York, Inc Distilled Spirits Council of the United States Ford Motor Company Fund Frito-Lay, Inc.
Georgia-Pacific Corporation
Heinz U.S.A
IMC Fertilizer, Inc.
KPMG Peat Marwick
McCormick & Company, Inc
Mobil Foundation
National Live Stock & Meat Board
Olin Corporation Charitable Trust
PPG Industries Foundation
Pepsi-Cola Company
The Reader’s Digest Association, Inc.
Simpson Fund
The Stare Fund
Sun Company, Inc.
USX Foundation Inc.
The Warner-Lambert Foundation
$1,000 to $4,999
Ag Processing Inc.
Alliance of American Insurers
American Egg Board
American Petroleum Institute
ASARCO Incorporated
Baltimore Gas and Electric Company
Banbury Fund, Inc.
Boardroom Reports, Inc.
Borden Foundation Inc.
Bristol-Myers Company U.S Nutritional Group The Burroughs Wellcome Co.
Chiquita Brands, Inc.
Coca-Cola Foods
Coltec Charitable Foundation, Inc
Connair Inc.
CPC International, Inc.
Crompton & Knowles Corporation
R.R. Donnelley & Sons Company
The Dover Fund
Eli Lilly and Company Foundation
GenCorp Foundation Inc.
Hammond Lead Products, Inc.
The Hartford Insurance Group
Hoffman-La Roche Inc.
Geo. A. Hormel & Co.
Gulf States Paper Corporation
Indianapolis Power & Light Company
International Flavors & Fragrances Foundation, Inc F. M. Kirby Foundation, Inc.
Liberty Mutual Insurance Group / Boston M & M Mars Midwest Grain Products, Inc.
The Millipore Foundation
Mobay Corporation
Morton International, Inc.
The Nalco Foundation
National Cattlemen’s Association
National Pork Producers Council
Nestle, S.A.
Occidental Petroleum Corporation
Pharmaceutical Manufacturers Association Phillips Petroleum Foundation, Inc.
Reilly Industries, Inc.
Rhone-Poulenc Ag Company
Rockwell International
Sandoz Corporation
Sandoz Crop Protection Corporation
Shell International Petroleum Maatachappij B.V.
SmithKline Beckman Foundation
The Stouffer Corporation Fund
Syntex Corporation
United States Sugar Corporation Charitable Trust The Upjohn Company Whirlpool Foundation Wine Institute Witco Corporation
$250 to $999
Blackhawk Warehousing & Leasing Company Coca-Cola Bottling Company Limited, Inc.
Continental Baking Company
GPU Nuclear Corporation
International Pesticide Applicators Association, Inc.
Just Born Incorporated
Master Chemical Corporation
Northeast Utilities Service Company
Valent U.S.A. Corporation
Washington Hop Commission
ACSH EXECUTIVE STAFF
Elizabeth M. Whelan, Sc.D., M.P.H. President ACSH BOARD OF DIRECTORS Fredric M. Steinberg, M.D.
Chairman of the Board, ACSH
Hertfordshire, England
Terry L. Anderson, Ph.D., M.S.
Political Economy Research Center
Elissa P. Benedek, M.D.
University of Michigan
Norman E. Borlaug, Ph.D.
Texas A&M University
Michael B. Bracken, Ph.D., M.P.H.
Yale University School of Medicine
Christine M. Bruhn, Ph.D.
University of California
Taiwo K. Danmola, C.P.A.
Arthur Andersen LLP
Thomas R. DeGregori, Ph.D.
University of Houston
Henry I. Miller, M.D.
Hoover Institution
Moghissi, A. Alan, Ph.D.
Institute for Regulatory Science
John H. Moore Ph.D., M.B.A.
Grove City College
Albert G. Nickel
Lyons Lavey Nickel Swift, Inc.
Kenneth M. Prager, M.D.
Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons Fredrick J. Stare, M.D., Ph.D.
Harvard School of Public Health
Stephen S. Sternberg, M.D.
Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
Mark C. Taylor, M.D.
Physicians for a Smoke-Free Canada
Lorraine Thelian
Ketchum Public Relations
Kimberly M. Thompson, Sc.D.
Harvard School of Public Health
Elizabeth M. Whelan, Sc.D., M.P.H.
American Council on Science and Health
Robert J. White, M.D., Ph.D.
Case Western Reserve University
ACSH ADVISORY BOARD (only available via URL
at):
http://www.cspinet.org/integrity/corp_funding.html

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So whom do you trust? Are you skeptics similar to Republican sheep who lap up the lies of FAUX News?

[AikidoSoul]

53. OMG!!! The documentation of your article comes from the discredited Stephen Barrett, a/k/a

"quackbuster" who started the Quackbuster organization which was discredited and folded around 2008. I suspect that he is a meglomaniac because he so resembles that prized turkey of a propagandist, Rush Limbaugh.

Barrett is an embarrassment to any scientific inquiry.

Live and learn kiddo:

Steven Barrett is an unlicensed Pennsylvania psychiatrist, who,
though he failed his psychiatric boards and has been criticized for
his lack of expertise by several courts, still claims to often advise
the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the Food and Drug Administration
(FDA), the FBI, State Attorneys General, HMOs, Consumer Reports,
medical journals and state medical, chiropractic and dental boards.

The insurance industry cites Barretts highly opinionated Quackbuster
attacks to deny paying claims for chiropractic and other natural healthcare.

Barrett and the Quackbusters, a vigilante group of self proclaimed
skeptics of any medical or health modality that avoids drugs, surgery
or radiation, attack almost all non-conventional healthcare practices
as quackery. Ignoring all scientific research to the contrary, they
dismiss Gulf War Syndrome, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Chemical
Sensitivity, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and dietary supplements as
rubbish. Double Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling is on their quack
hit list along with many well known and respected doctors and
scientists, including Deepak Chopra, Andrew Weil, and dozens of others.

http://www.anh-europe.org/news/quackbuster-stephen-barrett-md-loses-appeal-and-leaves-home-town

[SidDithers]

71. You post from naturalnews...

and have the temerity to criticize sourcing?



Sid

[AikidoSoul]

75. If you have problems with the word "natural" then you might not like this research by Nobel Laureate

Luc Montagnier:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/luc-montagnier-homeopathy-taken-seriously_b_814619.html

SNIP

Here, Montagnier is making reference to his experimental research that confirms one of the controversial features of homeopathic medicine that uses doses of substances that undergo sequential dilution with vigorous shaking in-between each dilution. Although it is common for modern-day scientists to assume that none of the original molecules remain in solution, Montagnier's research (and other of many of his colleagues) has verified that electromagnetic signals of the original medicine remains in the water and has dramatic biological effects.

Montagnier has just taken a new position at Jiaotong University in Shanghai, China (this university is often referred to as "China's MIT&quot , where he will work in a new institute bearing his name. This work focuses on a new scientific movement at the crossroads of physics, biology, and medicine: the phenomenon of electromagnetic waves produced by DNA in water. He and his team will study both the theoretical basis and the possible applications in medicine.

Montagnier's new research is investigating the electromagnetic waves that he says emanate from the highly diluted DNA of various pathogens. Montagnier asserts, "What we have found is that DNA produces structural changes in water, which persist at very high dilutions, and which lead to resonant electromagnetic signals that we can measure. Not all DNA produces signals that we can detect with our device. The high-intensity signals come from bacterial and viral DNA."

Montagnier affirms that these new observations will lead to novel treatments for many common chronic diseases, including but not limited to autism, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, and multiple sclerosis.

Montagnier first wrote about his findings in 2009, (17) and then, in mid-2010, he spoke at a prestigious meeting of fellow Nobelists where he expressed interest in homeopathy and the implications of this system of medicine. (18)

SNIP

Support from Another Nobel Prize winner

Montagnier's new research evokes memories one of the most sensational stories in French science, often referred to as the 'Benveniste affair.' A highly respected immunologist Dr. Jacques Benveniste., who died in 2004, conducted a study which was replicated in three other university laboratories and that was published in Nature (19). Benveniste and other researchers used extremely diluted doses of substances that created an effect on a type of white blood cell called basophils.

Although Benveniste's work was supposedly debunked, (20) Montagnier considers Benveniste a "modern Galileo" who was far ahead of his day and time and who was attacked for investigating a medical and scientific subject that orthodoxy had mistakenly overlooked and even demonized.

In addition to Benveniste and Montagnier is the weighty opinion of Brian Josephson, Ph.D., who, like Montagnier, is a Nobel Prize-winning scientist.

SNIP

Josephson went on to describe how many scientists today suffer from "pathological disbelief;" that is, they maintain an unscientific attitude that is embodied by the statement "even if it were true I wouldn't believe it."

Even more recently, Josephson wryly responded to the chronic ignorance of homeopathy by its skeptics saying, "The idea that water can have a memory can be readily refuted by any one of a number of easily understood, invalid arguments."

In the new interview in Science, Montagnier also expressed real concern about the unscientific atmosphere that presently exists on certain unconventional subjects such as homeopathy, "I am told that some people have reproduced Benveniste's results, but they are afraid to publish it because of the intellectual terror from people who don't understand it."

Montagnier concluded the interview when asked if he is concerned that he is drifting into pseudoscience, he replied adamantly: "No, because it's not pseudoscience. It's not quackery. These are real phenomena which deserve further study."

Aikido Soul: If you read the link you will find a section called "The Misinformation That Skeptics Spread "

It goes like this:

It is remarkable enough that many skeptics of homeopathy actually say that there is "no research" that has shows that homeopathic medicines work. Such statements are clearly false, and yet, such assertions are common on the Internet and even in some peer-review articles. Just a little bit of searching can uncover many high quality studies that have been published in highly respected medical and scientific journals, including the Lancet, BMJ, Pediatrics, Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal, Chest and many others. Although some of these same journals have also published research with negative results to homeopathy, there is simply much more research that shows a positive rather than negative effect.

Misstatements and misinformation on homeopathy are predictable because this system of medicine provides a viable and significant threat to economic interests in medicine, let alone to the very philosophy and worldview of biomedicine. It is therefore not surprising that the British Medical Association had the sheer audacity to refer to homeopathy as "witchcraft." It is quite predictable that when one goes on a witch hunt, one inevitable finds "witches," especially when there are certain benefits to demonizing a potential competitor (homeopathy plays a much larger and more competitive role in Europe than it does in the USA).

Skeptics of homeopathy also have long asserted that homeopathic medicines have "nothing" in them because they are diluted too much. However, new research conducted at the respected Indian Institutes of Technology has confirmed the presence of "nanoparticles" of the starting materials even at extremely high dilutions. Researchers have demonstrated by Transmission Electron Microscopy (TEM), electron diffraction and chemical analysis by Inductively Coupled Plasma-Atomic Emission Spectroscopy (ICP-AES), the presence of physical entities in these extreme dilutions. (24) In the light of this research, it can now be asserted that anyone who says or suggests that there is "nothing" in homeopathic medicines is either simply uninformed or is not being honest.

SNIP SNIP AND SNIP

[tammywammy]

77. For copyright purposes your only allowed to excerpt 4 paragraphs

Secondly, it's not the word "natural" that makes naturalnews hysterical, it's that it's a bullshit source. Mike Adams is an AIDS denialist among other odious beliefs.

[AikidoSoul]

175. So you want to pick on the Natural News citation too? Can't anyone on DU

admit that even that publication would be open to publishing the opinion of a Nobel Laureate scientist.

Give me a break!

I also quoted other news sources and cited other studies. Balance it out and be real to me.

[tammywammy]

177. Please edit your post to only a four paragraph excerpt. n/t

[AikidoSoul]

205. Well, now we know that everything I've posted will be trashed in you mind

because I cited a rag that has little respect. Never mind that the article stated the truth, and that
it was covered by other respectable journals.

Being judged by one little mistake, while ignoring all the good things.

Cherry picking is rampant on DU tonight.

[tammywammy]

206. You've managed to post to me twice on the same reply, yet still haven't edited your post

to four paragraphs. From the ToS:

Don't willfully and habitually infringe on others' copyrights.
To simplify compliance and enforcement of copyrights here on Democratic Underground, we ask that excerpts from other sources posted on Democratic Underground be limited to a maximum of four paragraphs, and we ask that the source of the content be clearly identified. Those who make a good-faith effort to respect the rights of copyright holders are unlikely to have any problems. But individuals who willfully and habitually infringe on others' copyrights risk being in violation of our Terms of Service.

[SidDithers]

84. It's not the word "natural" that I have a problem with...

I, and anyone who knows the least little bit about science, has a problem with the word "naturalnews".

Seriously, if you're linking to naturalnews, you've got absolutely zero credibility.

None. Zip. Zich. Nada.

Sid

[AikidoSoul]

108. Who can blame any publication for picking up a great scientific story citing

a Nobel Laureate scientist.

I'll bet even the Washington Times might pick that one up.

And my sourcing was from several reliable sources.

Give it up. The rep of the publication does not always mean the story is not true.

[SidDithers]

111. Washington Times?...

This thread just gets better and better.


Sid

[tammywammy]

112. She linked to NewsMax too.

[SidDithers]

115. Full moon was a couple nights ago, right?...

Sid

[Historic NY]

259. And the blue moon too...

[darkangel218]

142. And you always reply with "rofl" emojies.

[tammywammy]

148. That's not true, Sid has quite a few responses in this thread without a rofl.

[SidDithers]

200. Only when it's appropriate...

which is most of the time, with some posters.

Sid

[snooper2]

228. because a good number of people here post shit that is fucking hilarious

[darkangel218]

246. No kidding!

I just read one of those posts, a second ago!

[Major Nikon]

249. The best of it unintentionally so

[Major Nikon]

52. Mike Fucking Adams is an AIDS-denialist and a birther

He's a dipshit that blamed the Sandy Hook shootings on psychiatric medications, or in other words real medicine unlike the quackery he promotes. He also claimed Patrick Swayze was killed by pharmaceuticals. He deserves all the ad hominem he gets. He's a kook, a fraud, and an extraordinary asshole. He's a quack of the first order that deserves nothing but contempt.

Someone who carries his water memory speaks volumes.

[AikidoSoul]

54. I did not defend Mike Fucking Adams. I criticised the method used

to discredit what I am trying to say. Which was done by making fun of Adams who has nothing to do with anything I'm trying to say. Apples / Oranges and now, monkeys.

I don't know whether Mike Adams believes homeopathy is o.k. or not, and I don't care.

[Major Nikon]

80. You regurgitated Mike Fucking Adams quackery

Now you say he has nothing to do with anything you're trying to say.

Those two things don't reconcile.

NaturalNews = Mike Fucking Adams, the same Mike Fucking Adams who is an AIDS-denialist, a birther, an above all a bullshit monger.

The nonsense you are regurgitating is that Luc Montagnier seemingly endorses Homeoquackery even though he says otherwise. Even if he did he also supports other fringe nut ideas like DNA telepathy and he claims to have cured autism, which obviously he has not. Comically you say "If you understand Quantum Phyisics, you might understand how homeopathic remedies work." Luc Montagnier has zero background in "Quantum Phyisics". As if that wasn't funny enough, you suggest if we want more information, we should simply consult "Faculty of Homeopathy", another quack organization promoting quack ideas that are pretty much universally regarded as quackery by non-quacks.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

So really the best you have is one quack regurgitating another quack which you regurgitate again, and your first clue that it was complete bullshit was the fact that it was regurgitated by Mike Fucking Adams.

[AikidoSoul]

90. Wrong. Don't know Mike Adams but do know the disreputable, laughable Quackwatch crew

They are a joke.

Filled to the brim with chem/pharm shills.

If you spent any time at all researching them you would see that reputatble investigators have shown them to be Liars for Hire, and nothing more.

[AlbertCat]

96. AikidoSoul....

...... you are spending a lot of energy and time on...water. Homeopathy is not real in any sense. It's water.


I'm sorry you have fallen for such malarkey. You really should spend your time on something real. And no I don't mean astrology.


This is nothing to laugh about. It's serious. People who need real medicine are spending their cash on water...which does not have a memory. It is merely some hydrogen and oxygen. Real pharmaceuticals may be unpleasant and not always 100% effective, but there is a name for remedies that work for most people.... it's called medicine.

I'd hate for you to have some real malady that can be cured or mitigated by your dreaded big pharma (which does have its problems...usually due to commerce) and you're just taking specially packaged water for it.

[AikidoSoul]

129. Thanks for your concern, but I've already been treated successfully

for very serious problems cause by exposure to highly toxic chemicals.

So has my husband, and our animals. The chemicals came from outside of our home and property and we were chronically exposed for months.

One comment on the placebo effect. Would you agree that animals are less likely to be vulnerable to the "placebo effect" in their recovery process? I would suspect so, but there may be variables I'm unaware of.

I am frustrated by the lack of knowlege about the value of homeopathy on DU, but I think the problem is mostly because any science based on Neutonian physics is now outdated in light of our new undertandings of quantum physics.

Even the Russians knew about electrical energy that emanates from human bodies back when they launched Sputnik. They told the astronauts to put their hands on a metal plate while in space and the electrical energy patterns were transmitted to earth. From that they could interpret what was going on inside the astronauts bodies.

That same technology is being used today but mostly in Europe. The machinery and software are much more highly developed. When I first started seeing a practitioner who uses this technology, he was only one of two people in the US doing so, while thousands of practitioners were using it in Europe.

Money runs the show here. That practitioner I spoke of only charges a very small fee for a half hour session, and then he makes remedies to deal with my current situation, they are included in the price.

[AlbertCat]

132. Homeopathy did not "cure" you.

There is nothing in Newtonian physics or quantum physics that even remotely suggests water has a memory. And electrical pulses are how nerves work, y'know. But that has nothing to do with homeopathy.

"Even the Russians knew about electrical energy that emanates from human bodies back when they launched Sputnik. They told the astronauts to put their hands on a metal plate while in space and the electrical energy patterns were transmitted to earth. From that they could interpret what was going on inside the astronauts bodies. "

Imagine! Even the Russians! This is bunk too.


Some people will believe anything!

Bilking the gullible runs the alternative medicine show.

[X_Digger]

178. "value of homeopathy" -- the power to quickly separate fools from their money?

We know all about that, thanks.

Adding 'quantum' to something that most folks don't understand doesn't make it any less idiotic. Fifty years ago, charlatans were adding 'atomic' to quack butter remedies. Same schtick, new terminology.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

227. I know I'm asking for trouble by posting in this thread,

{This is supposed to be a Response to AikidoSoul (Reply #129), but I'm not sure it's showing up in the right place.}

Even the Russians knew about electrical energy that emanates from human bodies back when they launched Sputnik. They told the astronauts to put their hands on a metal plate while in space and the electrical energy patterns were transmitted to earth. From that they could interpret what was going on inside the astronauts bodies.

I know I'm asking for trouble by posting in this thread, but Sputnik (not "Sputnick&quot was unmanned. At least, the first one was unmanned. Wikipedia says there were several satellites with that name.

Sputnik 1

Asking for trouble, part two: Luc Montagnier might not be the authority you were hoping for.

Also, it's "Newton," not "Neuton."

Also....

That same technology is being used today but mostly in Europe. The machinery and software are much more highly developed.

Uhhh, such as?

[snooper2]

229. ROFLMFAO LOL

"They told the astronauts to put their hands on a metal plate while in space and the electrical energy patterns were transmitted to earth. From that they could interpret what was going on inside the astronauts bodies."







Hey, know what this is correctly used for LOL?

[mr blur]

248. Please, you can't really believe this drivel?!

Hey, you mentioned "Quantum"! The magic phrase!

Not a follower of Deepak Chopra by any chance? He's very big on Quantum. He's a dishonest, rather stupid and ignorant con-man, of course, but he makes a living at it. He might believe that sugar water will counteract the effect of " highly toxic chemicals" but I doubt that you' ll find a rational scientist who will. You presumably know the process used to make these wonder remedies? And you can support them with a straight face?

By the way, the "thousands of practitioners" you mention over here in Europe are just as greedy and adept at selling bullshit as the ones you have over there.

[Major Nikon]

98. So NaturalNews is the gold standard, but Quackwatch is a joke

Please keep it up. Soon there won't be a dry eye in the house.

[AikidoSoul]

130. You've put word in my mouth. Does that make you feel smart?

[Major Nikon]

149. Series?

You quoted and defended NaturalNews and you called Quackwatch a joke which really speaks volumes.

But don't let me put words in your mouth.

[tammywammy]

102. .....

Natural News is a science-based natural health advocacy organization led by activist-turned-scientist Mike Adams, the Health Ranger.

http://www.naturalnews.com/About.html

Here you can do some reading on Mike Adams: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/?s=mike+adams

[procon]

82. Please check your cited source.

The Internet is full of pseudoscience quackery, and Natural News is an anti-science sales portal for a conspiracy theorist who sells his own patented nostrums under the guise of fighting Big Pharma.

[AikidoSoul]

131. I don't read Natural News, but simply found the story about a well known and

respected scientist.

Even a rag can have accurate details. Don't judge me by that one citation. What about all the others. Any problem with them?

I think there's something silly about the fact that almost all DUers cherry picked that magazine to disprove my assertions, but ignored everything else I said.

[procon]

138. You can't expect too much leeway when you use such a disreputable source.

Given all the erroneous and misleading information presented as facts on that website to trick people into buying some bottled snake oil shit, people have rightfully learned to be suspicious of anything they put online. It's your misfortune to have posted a link to that particular site as a reference so you can't blame anyone for being suspicious and dismissing your point of view as a result.

[X_Digger]

182. Appeal to authority.

I don't care if President Obama, Jesus, and Santa Claus came down and endorsed homeopathy.

Just because someone (famous, smart, popular) endorses an idea-- that doesn't make it true.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

[arikara]

186. Don't take it personally

DU didn't used to be plagued with all these debunkers. Now one or more of them always does the same thing anytime alternative medicine is mentioned. DU used to be a place where things could be discussed civilly but with this bunch there is no discussion to be allowed. Its always the same strident show me the peer reviewed links bullshit.
I think of them as science fundies, on the same level as any other religious fundamentalist.

[X_Digger]

190. Pshaw, all these 'fact' based people, demanding like 'proof' and shit. They should take it on faith!

You're free to your own opinions. You don't get your own facts.

You know what alternative medicine that's been proven effective is called? Medicine!

[GoneOffShore]

241. How many times does it have to be said? It's just effing Water!

Maybe with a little sugar in it.
You can't overdose on homeopathy, but you could drown or get a sugar high.

Pay particular attention to the lines near the end.

If you show me that, say, homeopathy works, then,
I will change my mind, I will spin on a fucking dime.
I’ll be as embarrassed as hell,
But I will run through the streets yelling,
It’s a Miracle!
Take physics and bin it.
Water has memory!
And whilst its memory of a long lost drop of onion juice seems infinite,
It somehow forgets all the poo it’s had in it.
You show me that it works and how it works,
And when I’ve recovered from the shock,
I will take a compass and carve
“Fancy that” on the side of my......

[DetlefK]

233. Hi. I understand Quantum Physics and I AM GOING TO DESTROY YOU.

For a molecule to emit electromagnetic radiation it needs a moving charge.
Organic molecules are naturally charged in water and they are vibrating mechanically due to phononic excitation (due to temperature), so that's no problem.
It is entirely reasonable for a certain molecule to emit a certain electromagnetic signal.

Problem:
The idea that this electromagnetic signal can be imprinted and conserved is outlandish.
Where does it stay? It's not moving around as a photon, so it has to be converted back into an oscillating movement of charge.
What kinds of oscillators are available? We have the dipoles of water-molecules and some hydrated inorganic ions (salt) as the bulk of the solution.

Interludium:
Every oscillating system has a specific frequency that is determined by its parameters, e.g. the length of a pendulum. You cannot force pendulums of different lengths to oscillate with the same frequency (except with elaborate feedback-steered mechanical contraptions).

Back to the problem:
The hydrate-shells of the ions are so thick that they are effectively insulated. Additionally, the hydrate-shells are in a dynamic equilibrium with the bulk-liquid, exchanging molecules. So, even if you found an ion-hydrate-shell system with exactly the right frequency, the amplitude of the oscillation would quickly wear out because of thermal fluctuations.
How about water? Water has a natural electrostatic dipole, however it is a small, light molecule (3 atoms) and therefore its natural frequency is many times higher than the electromagnetic oscillation of a molecule consisting of hundreds of molecules. This means, the molecule has a hard time exciting the water at all and if it does, it does so at the frequency of the water, not the frequency of the molecule.

Conclusion: If you understand Quantum Phyisics, you understand why this claim doesn't make sense.



And for Montagnier's claims:
The paper can be found here: http://www.homeopathyeurope.org/media/news/MontagnierElectromadneticSignals.pdf
Its diagrams are conveniently so small that you cannot possibly discern anything and you have to take the author's word on what you are supposed to be seeing.
I MEAN, SERIOUSLY???
A SCREENSHOT OF YOUR COMPUTER-SCREEN???
AND EVERYTHING IS SO SMALL THAT YOU CANNOT EVEN READ ANYTHING???
AND WHY DOES THE SIGNAL LOOK DIFFERENT IN FIGURES 2 AND 3???
AND THIS SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL ACCEPTED THIS STEAMING PILE OF USELESS BULLSHIT??????????????

And if you still have any doubts that this paper is entirely and utterly fake:
The journal received it on January 3rd. It was "in review" for less than 2 days, was revised on January 5th and accepted on January 6th...
- No review process in the world is this fast. It normally takes at least a month when the paper is handed over to anonymous scientists to fact-check it.
- There is absolutely nothing computational in this paper, so why would a journal about computational science accept this paper in the first place?
- The horrible, horrible diagrams that show precisely zero. Real scientific journals have their own layout-department. If you submit a paper, you submit the text and then at the end of the text all the images. Once your paper gets published, the journal takes care of the layout and sizes your images in a way that readers can read them and places them at appropriate positions in the text. Which is what didn't happen here.






Conclusion:
A claim that flies in the face of everything known about physics and chemistry, made in a useless paper that was printed by a fake scientific journal.
And you base your argument on that.
Wow.

[Krytan11c]

234. +1000

[ProfessorGAC]

252. Well Done, Detlef

As one who has a similar background, that was outstanding.

[MadrasT]

262. Thank you.

[steve2470]

266. excellent post, thank you, I actually learned something today!

many of these for you

[steve2470]

267. you might want to make an OP out of that, it's that good nt

[Kali]

270. oh yeah?

well, but, but, but, how long have you studied homeopathy? huh? you aren't a real scientist if you don't have any personal anecdotes about being cured of self-diagnosed diseases by water. man.

[DetlefK]

281. Does it count as homeopathy if I dilute water in alcohol?

[Rainforestgoddess]

288. oh yeah? You might understand quantum physics,

but you don't understand "quantum physics". So therefore all your fancy edumacation is useless in this argument. You will have to go to the Deepak school of "Quantum Physics" to truly understand that it can explain everything and negate every counterargument.

*nods sagely, lights incense*

[DetlefK]

290. Oh, I know "quantum physics", "energy", "nano", "Einstein", "strings", "information"...

[AikidoSoul]

154. Nobody knows why aspirin works -- the mechanism of action, and yet, nobody goes nuts

over its obvious efficacy.

Homeopathy is more complicated as the practitioner or user has to study the Materia Medica, or similar educational tome.

[Krytan11c]

158. See reply 156 n/t

[NYC Liberal]

180. "Nobody knows why aspirin works" — Um, they most certainly do.

[Orrex]

202. Correction: "Nobody who believes in homeopathy knows why aspirin works."

[etherealtruth]

268. Further correction: "nobody who believes in homeopathy understands how ANYTHING works"

[metalbot]

225. While not authoritative, you might check wikipedia before making claims about aspirin

The mechanism of how aspirin works is actually quite well understood.

Please consider this: if you are accepting as fact statements like "Nobody knows why aspirin works", and this is easily demonstrable to be wrong, what other things might you be accepting as fact that could also easily be disproven.

[NickB79]

291. Not just aspirin, but magnets and the tides too!

[cleanhippie]

31. There may be no evidence for your beliefs...

But at least you're open-minded enough to ignore the science.

[AikidoSoul]

34. So tell me, while I have actually studied the science, you are willing to

say that I'm ignoring it?

Seems you are calling me the opposite of what I am.

And my evidence is not just the published science, but my own direct experience.

[cleanhippie]

35. What actual "science" have you studied? What actual "scientific research" supports this?

Please, a link to any peer-reviewed study will do.

[AikidoSoul]

42. See reply number 23 to NYC Liberal -- NT

[Major Nikon]

100. I'll save you the trouble of clicking through

He cites Luc Montagnier, who claims he can cure autism through quack therapies, and DNA can transport from one test tube to another, and if you think this is complete bullshit you obviously don't understand "Quantum Phyisics".

He also claims NaturalNews is a great source but Quackwatch is a joke. Very telling that.

[AikidoSoul]

159. Your misrepresentation of my words is sad. You would lose any debate by doing this as

debate rules dictate that you state the truthful facts and not put words in the mouth of your debate partner.

[Major Nikon]

163. You post complete bullshit about homeoquackery and then insist on "truthful facts"

[xocet]

74. The Hoary Anecdotal Evidence Fallacy Trotted Out Once Again To Stupefy The Ignorant...

"And my evidence is not just the published science, but my own direct experience."

Well, now that it is known that you yourself have experienced what you claim to be true, it seems that the published science is unnecessary after all....

That is special.

[Adrahil]

165. If you are a scientist...

Then you know that anecdotal evidence counts for very little.

Show me some scientifically constructed tests with a control.

[hobbit709]

83. So you believe that if a given substance works, then diluting it 1,000,000 to 1 still works.

That is the definition of homeopathy.
you may be confusing naturopathy with homeopathy-they are not the same thing. And even a lot of "natural" remedies don't work all that well.
Citing naturalnews puts you in the same category as UFO abduction beleivers.

[Thor_MN]

184. Oh, it is much better than that.. A substance that HARMS you diluted by 10 to the 60th cures you.

Woo. Total Woo.

[rjsquirrel]

222. Lol whut?

[alarimer]

236. No such thing as "alternative" medicine

There is medicine; and there is bullshit.
Homeopathy is bullshit.

It's fucking WATER. It is a scam for making money off gullible people.

Accusing people who want EVIDENCE of being closed-minded is horseshit.

[Orsino]

254. Magic memory water, tons of anecdotes and misguided research, and no evidence.

That's homeopathy. If it worked as anything more than placebos, and if there were any self-consistent theories of its mechanisms, it would be mecicine.

Instead, it's bogus.

[Marr]

257. Homeopathy is the very definition of quackery. /nt

[doxyluv13]

277. Psychic Debunker The Amazing Randi used to Do a Homeopathic Bit in his speeches.

At the point in his presentation when he was dealing with homeopathy, he'd take out a bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills, and slam down the whole thing. People in the audience would gasp--like he was going to OD or something--but he could have eaten 30 bottles of the stuff because there is literally nothing in it but sugar.

[HuckleB]

282. Promoting Homeopathy Is Unethical, Pure And Simple

It does nothing for the patient. The placebo is not a justified reason for using it. And, yes, pushing it can keep people from getting the actual health care they need. https://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2013/11/23/use-of-homeopathy-kills-child/

[AikidoSoul]

57. Lil Missy, when your doctor gives you drugs does he explain the mechanism of action to you?

Or do you just swallow the pill?

Why does homeopathy have such a hard time gaining the approval of the general American public? I think it's partly brainwashing and partly the fact that most Americans are linear thinkers.

I like what this abstact entitled, "Plausibility and evidence: the case of homeopathy." reveals, found at the National Center for Biotechnology Information, U.S. National Library of Medicine states:

Med Health Care Philos. 2013 Aug;16(3):525-32. doi: 10.1007/s11019-012-9413-9.
Plausibility and evidence: the case of homeopathy.
Rutten L1, Mathie RT, Fisher P, Goossens M, van Wassenhoven M.
Author information
Abstract

Homeopathy is controversial and hotly debated. The conclusions of systematic reviews of randomised controlled trials of homeopathy vary from 'comparable to conventional medicine' to 'no evidence of effects beyond placebo'. It is claimed that homeopathy conflicts with scientific laws and that homoeopaths reject the naturalistic outlook, but no evidence has been cited. We are homeopathic physicians and researchers who do not reject the scientific outlook; we believe that examination of the prior beliefs underlying this enduring stand-off can advance the debate. We show that interpretations of the same set of evidence--for homeopathy and for conventional medicine--can diverge. Prior disbelief in homeopathy is rooted in the perceived implausibility of any conceivable mechanism of action. Using the 'crossword analogy', we demonstrate that plausibility bias impedes assessment of the clinical evidence. Sweeping statements about the scientific impossibility of homeopathy are themselves unscientific: scientific statements must be precise and testable. There is growing evidence that homeopathic preparations can exert biological effects; due consideration of such research would reduce the influence of prior beliefs on the assessment of systematic review evidence.

(Emphasis using bold type is mine).

FAIR USE NOTICE

This contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[pintobean]

97. Jury results. This is pretty funny.

On Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:35 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Lil Missy, when your doctor gives you drugs does he explain the mechanism of action to you?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7036426

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"Lil missy"? No reason to be condescending and insulting.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:42 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Um, did you happen to notice the name of the DUer to which this person was responding???

Go look. I'll wait.......

Ohhhhhh yeahhhhhh. Er um. Never mind.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Wow!!! this is a prime example of using a gun without even knowing why, pathetic.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: That's the DUer's user name.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post seems to be in reply to a post by a user who has the username "Lil Missy".
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Lil Missy is the poster's user name. Carry on with the woo peddling, alertee.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[Syzygy321]

140. Though I lack the patience to read

all the stuff above,

I'm gonna butt in and say that when your doctor prescribes medicine, you have every right to ask what the mechanism of action is - as well as the possible side effects, alternatives, and what would likely happen if you decided not to take it.

(Lemme add, though, that doctors don't have encyclopedic memories or know everything about everything. In med school I could have told you exactly how aspirin works. Twenty years later, all I remember is "um, something about cyclo-oxygenase and irreversible binding, and it blocks mediators of pain and fever."

But please ask. That's how you can tell quackery from science.

[muriel_volestrangler]

230. It has a hard time because it predates atomic theory and knowledge of the size of atoms

Since most Americans learn about those in school, they understand that it is an eighteenth century supposition that has no relation to reality, having been proved to be impossible at the beginning of the 20th century. A few people have tried to keep it alive with hand-waving claims of 'quantum mumble-mumble' and 'molecular memory', but you have to be really gullible to fall for that.

Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann based on his doctrine of like cures like (similia similibus curentur), whereby a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people will cure similar symptoms in sick people.[1] Homeopathy is a pseudoscience, a system that asserts itself to be a set of scientific doctrines but that is not effective for any condition.[2][3][4][5] Large-scale studies have found homeopathic preparations to be no more effective than a placebo, suggesting that positive feelings after taking homeopathic medicines are due to the placebo effect and normal recovery from illness.[6][7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

The first published indications of this idea are to be found at the end of his paper on the absorption of gases already mentioned, which was read on 21 October 1803, though not published until 1805. Here he says:

Why does not water admit its bulk of every kind of gas alike? This question I have duly considered, and though I am not able to satisfy myself completely I am nearly persuaded that the circumstance depends on the weight and number of the ultimate particles of the several gases.

The main points of Dalton's atomic theory were:

Elements are made of extremely small particles called atoms.
Atoms of a given element are identical in size, mass, and other properties; atoms of different elements differ in size, mass, and other properties.
Atoms cannot be subdivided, created, or destroyed.
Atoms of different elements combine in simple whole-number ratios to form chemical compounds.
In chemical reactions, atoms are combined, separated, or rearranged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dalton#Atomic_theory

Accurate determinations of Avogadro's number require the measurement of a single quantity on both the atomic and macroscopic scales using the same unit of measurement. This became possible for the first time when American physicist Robert Millikan measured the charge on an electron in 1910. The electric charge per mole of electrons is a constant called the Faraday constant and had been known since 1834 when Michael Faraday published his works on electrolysis. By dividing the charge on a mole of electrons by the charge on a single electron the value of Avogadro's number is obtained.[11] Since 1910, newer calculations have more accurately determined the values for the Faraday constant and the elementary charge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avogadro_constant

[etherealtruth]

2. "homeopathy and science are mutually exclusive"

That sums it up quite nicely

[Electric Monk]

13. "Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? Medicine."

[hedda_foil]

21. Fantastic video. I hope others click on it.

[AikidoSoul]

19. Your reply is quite "light and dainty" like your poster name

but has no substance whatsoever.

Homeopathy is a very effective method of treatment that is non-toxic. I've posted several links above to answer the first poster.

It's shameful how ignorant DU is about scientific matters, except for a few who in fact are quite brilliant. But generally speaking there is a tendency to issue cheap shot retorts to scientific topics that require study and investigation, not ad hominem blasts of lightweight commentaries.

[etherealtruth]

86. Please tell me you are joking or have no idea what homeopathy is?

It's shameful how ignorant DU is about scientific matters, except for a few who in fact are quite brilliant. .. I agree completely; sadly we have those that are completely ignorant of the natural sciences and believe that there is even a possibility homeopathy works.

I am praying you simply have conflated the term homeopathy with something else and simply don't understand. i want to believe that no-one here could possibly believe that water molecules have memory

[AikidoSoul]

152. Homeopathy cannot be explained simply and I won't attempt to do it here in this incredibly hostile

environment.

I participated in this thread because I know that homeopathy works. I don't need to explain the mechanism of action despite the rabid, frothing at the mouth fury here on DU that insists that I explain each and every detail of how it works.

For God's sake ... don't you and other DUers realize that aspirin works, and yet NOBODY has ever been able to describe its mechanism of action?

[Krytan11c]

156. Arizona sciences better than you

http://www.azdhs.gov/bems/documents/drugs/DrugProfiles.pdf

Description of the MOA for aspirin is there. That is the link to the Arizona Bureau of EMS.

[AikidoSoul]

185. Your reference does NOT state the mechanism for pain relief, but only for thinning the blood to

prevent blood clotting and subsequent cardiac events as is quoted directly from your link here:

In small doses aspirin blocks thromboxane A2, a potent platelet aggregate and vasoconstrictor. This property has led to its use in the acute phase of management of the myocardial infarction.
Decreased platelet aggregation.

It also mentions the dangers of aspirin's blood thinning actions, but NADA on why it reduces or eliminates pain.

[Adrahil]

164. We DO know how aspirin works.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/950817/aspirin.shtml

[AikidoSoul]

204. My apologies. Apparently I didn't read this 1995 report which says,

New understanding of old remedy may spell relief for regular users

Although aspirin was introduced as a pain reliever nearly 100 years ago, how it actually works has remained a mystery until now.

Well, it took them 100 years but at least we know now.

Wonder how long it will take homeopathy to be widely accepted in the USA? Europeans are educated and curious, and yet the use of homeopathy is widespread. Strange, no?

[GoneOffShore]

271. Homeopathy will be accepted by people who understand science

When pigs fly.

You keep doubling down on the woo.

Actually you're into infinity with the way you've tried to refute actual science -

Here's a European take on homeopathy and auras and naturopaths and assorted other quackery and bullshit.

&feature=youtu.be

[X_Digger]

189. Of course it's non-toxic.. it's water (and maybe sugar)! Let's just hope the sugar isn't HFCS. n/t

[AikidoSoul]

36. "...sums it up quite nicely". Your addition is lacking

any real study of the science.

Hey... next time you have really bad muscle pain, try AnicaFlora and rub it on.

You will be happy you did.

For nerve pain, try hypericum.

For pain like hitting your finger with a hammer.... arnica montana is excellent.

And very, very inexpensive!

Or you can buy toxic drugs with lots of side effects. It's up to you!

[etherealtruth]

88. You don't even know what homeopathy is do you?

You are arguing in favor of something that is not homeopathy in response to a thread regarding homeopathy.

[Silent3]

91. Not only, as etherealtruth pointed out, do you not seem to understand what homeopathy is...

...confusing it with herbal remedies (an issue address in the OP!), you don't seem to understand what science is very well if you confuse your personal "I tried it and it works great!" experiences with science, plus your "Or you can buy toxic drugs" comment demonstrates the poor logic of a false dichotomy as well as the unfounded, unscientific prejudice of "natural = good, artificial = bad".

Just how much misinformation and confused thinking are you trying to cram into one single post?

[Archae]

3. It is quackery. Period.

It has no science, no credibility, and the salespeople have no class.

[tammywammy]

4. Agreed 100%!

[AikidoSoul]

20. Are you an expert on homeopathy. What are your credentials?

It's easy to put something down, but where is your evidence.... you who demand "science" and "credibility"!

[backscatter712]

27. Basic laws of physics.

When you dissolve a substance by thirty orders of magnitude, which is routinely done by homeopaths, THERE IS NOTHING LEFT. There is not one molecule of the substance left in the final solution. All that's left is water.

If you want to claim that water has a "memory", show me peer-reviewed research documenting it. Because it looks an awful lot like the placebo effect to me.

Homeopathy is based on the "principle" that dilution makes a solution stronger.

The facts are in. Homeopathy is pure nonsense.

[AikidoSoul]

39. If you understood quantum physics, you could better understand why homeopathy works.

http://www.naturalnews.com/029940_homeopathy_scientist.html

SNIP

Nobel Prize winning French virologist Professor Luc Montagnier shocked fellow Nobel prize-winners and the medical establishment by telling them that he had discovered that water has a memory that continues even after many dilutions.

SNIP

In Britain the market for homeopathy is estimated to be growing at around 20% a year. Over 30 million people in Europe use homeopathic medicine. Homeopathy is supported in Britain by Prince Charles and the physician to the Royal Family has been a homeopathic physician since the late 1800s.

SNIP

While homeopathy is also experiencing a resurgence of popularity in the United States, it is far more popular in much of the rest of the world. In India, approximately 130 million people use homeopathy. In Brazil, homeopathy is a recognized medical specialty where 15,000 medical doctors are certified as homeopathic specialists

[backscatter712]

41. Ooh, the British Royals use it!

Are they quantum physicists?

Do you even understand quantum physics, or are you just parroting the woo from those that claim it makes homeopathy work?

Here's something about Luc Montagnier:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/06/27/luc-montagnier-hits-a-new-low-age-of-autism-rallies-to-defend-him/

Back in the day, he discovered the virus that causes HIV AIDS, and won a Nobel Prize. But more recently, he's been peddling quackery. Sorry, but he's not credible.

[AikidoSoul]

63. Wow. You piss on the Royals and a Nobel Laureate. God knows who else you piss on, but I'll bet

don't need a urinal.

[muriel_volestrangler]

72. Yes, the 'Royals' (mainly Prince Charles) are ignorant fuckers

especially on this subject. That he believes in the nonsense is no recommendation at all.

And the 'water memory' is nonsense. A memory of what? The water has touched all kinds of things. If the idea that it 'remembers' the molecules were true, there'd be massive side-effects for homeopathy.

[AlbertCat]

135. You piss on the Royals and a Nobel Laureate.

Argument from authority..... a common logical fallacy one usually learns about in High School.

I'm beginning to wonder if you can think logically with reason at all.

[SidDithers]

67. Woo woo credo #10

Use the word quantum in a sentence, despite not knowing what it means. For a more impressive effect, use it with the name of your favorite superstition - "quantum dowsing" sure sounds mighty serious.

http://www.insolitology.com/tests/credo.htm

Sorry, but water doesn't have memory.

Any homoepathy is nothing but shit and sugar.

Sid

[Lizzie Poppet]

70. I understand QM reasonably well.

The term "quantum" doesn't even appear in the article you cite. What on earth are you on about?

[Krytan11c]

121. quantum physics and medicine huh?

If you had said chemistry, biochemistry, microbiology, or pathophysiology I would have com closer to believing you. When I want medical advice I go to a medical professional who has studied the sciences that are related to treating and understanding the human body, not physicists.

[AikidoSoul]

133. Well do keep up with what you know. Don't want to scare you.

But I do believe that any of the sciences based on Neutonian physics is now outdated in light of our new undertandings of quantum physics.

Breaking all those disciplines you name into separate little pieces is the opposite of the holistic view which would bring us closer to understanding how energy works to heal. It's only when taking the leap outside of linear thinking will we begin to understand new ways of understanding the healing sciences.

And don't expect BigPharma to invest in it!

[Krytan11c]

139. Thanks for your concern, but...

I will most definitely be sticking with evidence based medicine. It has been saving lots of lives.

[AikidoSoul]

55. Albert Einstein said, ""All matter is made up of energy in the form of electromagnetic frequencies."

Which are all around you, but of course invisible to the naked eye.

I'm not discouraged by the antipathy here at DU. If you can't see it, you don't want to believe it.

So....people couldn't see radio waves when radio was first invented, and the first claims that radio could transmit sound were met with hostility and scorn.

The same with germs.

atoms.

bacteria.

viruses.

But this homeopathy has an enemy calle BIG PHARMA, which like other big industries, will pay billions to fund bogus studies and so called academic experts, who often receive money in their university department.

Man...you'd think DUers would be more investigative and untrusting of Big Money. Homeopathy is a pennies industry, but it helps a lot of people and animals..

[Orrex]

56. You've convinced me.

If someone makes a profit somewhere, then to hell with science and evidence! From now on, it's homeopathy and other thoroughly disproven nonsense all the way!

[AikidoSoul]

58. Hundreds of FDA approved drugs have been taken off the market. AND, Europe disallows

certain drugs that are allowed in the USA.

Mechanism of action? When you take a drug, do you know what it does to you?

Do you listen to the side effects when they're advertised on TV?

The FDA is more lax in its oversight regulators in Europe and other countries, according to a 2012 study at the Temple University School of Pharmacy. Temple researchers make it clear that they highly suspect that the U.S. agency is influenced by the financial fist of Big Pharma.

List of 5 prescription drugs that Americans take that are banned in other countries:

1. Avandia

This diabetes medication has been associated with a 64 percent increased risk of heart failure over a 7-year period. The drug has also been linked to a 27 percent increase in strokes and a 43 percent increase in heart attacks.

Avandia, the trade name for rosiglitazone, was withdrawn from the UK and India in 2010 following recommendations by the European Medicines Agency because of heart risks. It was withdrawn in New Zealand and South Africa in 2011.

2. Actos

This is another risky diabetes drug banned outside the U.S., says Graedon, an adjunct professor at the University of North Carolina Eshelman School of Pharmacy.

“This drug has been associated with increased risk of bladder cancer,” he says. “But even though the FDA itself issued a warning about the cancer risk, it’s still a best seller.”

Actos is banned in France and Germany.

“I ask my patients on Actos to consider dropping it and give them an alternative,” says Dr. Albert Levy of Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai.

3. Soma

This muscle relaxant, generically known as carisoprodol, “is potentially fatal because it acts on the central nervous system much like alcohol and is highly addictive,” Graedon said.

“Instead of Soma, most physicians now prescribe benzodiazepines like Valium or Xanax for anxiety and more specific muscle relaxers that target the painful area.”

Norway and Sweden have pulled the drug off the market because of problems with dependence and intolerable side effects.

4. Phentermine

This stimulant was one half of the main ingredients in the notorious diet pill “fen-phen” that was taken off the market by the FDA in 1997 due to heart valve problems in patients. While its sidekick fenfluramine was banned in the U.S., phentermine remains legal and is still a popular diet aid.

It has been banned in the UK and elsewhere because of heart risks.

5. Barbiturates

This group of central nervous system depressants is used to treat insomnia and anxiety disorders. They include phenobarbital, amobarbital, pentobarbital, and hexobarbital. These drugs have been banned overseas because of fatal intoxication and abuse potential.

“The FDA continues to drop the ball as a regulating agency when it comes to keeping Americans safe,” says Graedon. “These drugs simply should not be on the U.S market.”

Link to the list: http://www.newsmax.com/Health/Headline/drugs-medications-FDA-banned/2014/05/14/id/571315/

[Orrex]

60. And never once has homeopathy been shown to work as described.

Not once, not ever. Never. As in never. Ever.


You can spread as much bad news as you want about Evul Big Phrama; that doesn't change the fact that homeopathy is bullshit from start to finish.

[AikidoSoul]

64. Prove to me that homeopathy "never once has been shown to work as described"

and then go do the research which proves how wrong you are.

I doubt that you will do it. It's so much easier to shoot from an empty gun.

And wow! Look at how readily you use the word "never".

Absolutes have no place in an investigative mind.

[Orrex]

78. Sory, but that's not how it works

I'm under no obligation to prove that your wish-magic brand of pseudoscience is garbage; it's garbage until its proponents demonstrate its efficacy. That means that it's up to you to prove it; it's not up to me to disprove it.

However, the claims of homeopathy have been dubunked countless times, and the basic premise is idiocy.

Show that it works, and we'll talk. Until then, you're an advocate for bullshit.

[AikidoSoul]

113. You have documented none of your empty remarks

While I have documented several claims in this thread.

Take a leap Orrex --- into some medical / scientific literature. Use your time to look for some real truth. Read the history of homeopathy. Read about the major role that old man John Rockefeller played in destroying it in this country. Read how he used homeopathy himself and had his own private homeopathic physician.

PROFIT MOTIVE is why he played the biggest role in destroying homeopathy. Read about the bogus study he funded and how he bought off member of the AMA to get homeopathy pushed into a ditch.

Money. Remember about how money corrupts? Homeopathy costs very little. When's the last time you paid for a drug. They are very expensive overall.

The average cost of a homeopathic remedy at our local health food store is about eight bucks.

Try to use your critical thinking skills. Or if that's a problem, take some courses in lateral thinking by Edward DeBono.

[Orrex]

117. Homeopathy is absolute bullshit from start to finish.

Anything you post that doesn't accept and acknowledge this fact is a waste of time.

My assertion is that homeopathy has never been demonstrated to work at all. Not once. Not a little. Not ever.
This is a fact, and your crap about "taking leaps" and "open minds" is garbage that should be left by the roadside along with countless other ridiculous fairy tales.

I am under no obligation to document my "empty remarks," and no one is obligated to "disprove" homeopathy because you are the one who needs to support your assertion. Homeopathy is worthless. Worthless. It doesn't matter if it costs eight bucks or less--it's worthless. It is logically impossible from the outset, so any "proof" that it's bullshit is simply redundant.


Please understand that I have no reason to reply further unless you actually post something in support of your boring magical belief system.

[Krytan11c]

125. $8 bucks?!

That's more expensive than aspirin and benadryl. By your logic the makers of aspirin and benadryl are less corruptible than your precious homeopathic producers right?

[NYC Liberal]

191. Yep. Too funny. Only $3.69 for a 24-pack of Asprin at CVS.

http://www.cvs.com/shop/health-medicine/pain-fever/aspirin-pain-relief/bayer-aspirin-tablets-skuid-183723

[Syzygy321]

151. You should be relieved to hear

That because of the issues you mention, those meds have fallen out of favor. For example, Avandia had a brief heyday, but when the heart failure link was published, it was bumped to a thirdline oral agent, and doctors never prescribe it to patients with heart failure anymore - except I suppose in extraordinary circumstances where benefit outweighs risk.

That's where a scientific field like traditional medicine beats the weird stuff: Data are collected and evaluated (even after the drug hits the shelves) and publicized, and no secrets are kept from doctors or patients, and prescribing trends self-correct, and malpractice lawyers stand ready to make sure they do!

(Whereas homeopathy, it's true, won't directly hurt you - it just will cost you money while letting your diseases roll merrily along, untreated. But to each her own. Any adult who can think and read is entitled to make her own medical choices.)

[SeattleVet]

209. There are also hundreds of drugs that are available in other countries, and banned in the US.

This is from the UN's Department of Economic and Social Affairs:

Department of Economic and Social Affairs

Consolidated List of Products Whose Consumption and/or Sale Have Been Banned, Withdrawn, Severely Restricted or not Approved by Governments
Fourteenth Issue
(New data only) (January 2005 – October 2008)
Pharmaceuticals

http://www.un.org/esa/coordination/CL-14-Final.for.Printing.pdf

None of which has ANYTHING to do with the actual topic under discussion here - the quackery of homeopathy.

[SidDithers]

68. Woo woo credo #36...

Quote Einstein, and do so often. Quote things he said if possible, but Einstein has been dead for ages now and so it's permissible to bring him up to date. Change the odd word here and there to make it clear that Einstein would have supported your argument if only he knew what you know. Act as if any arbitrary Einstein quote supports your position.

http://www.insolitology.com/tests/credo.htm



Sid

[AlbertCat]

137. people couldn't see radio waves

Yes, and people who didn't understand it came up with all kinds of crap about it.

Just like electricity was supposed to cure everything according to people who didn't understand it, and those who wanted to bamboozle people who didn't understand it, in the 1870s when it 1st gets into general use.

And X-rays were supposed to be able to see your soul...again according to people who didn't understand it.


Homeopathy was made up in 1796.... when there was no notion of quantum physics and Newtonian physics ruled.... and hasn't worked ever since.


It's right up there with astrology and crop circles. Homeopathy's big enemy is common sense and reason. Period.

Being open minded doesn't mean accepting any silly debunked guesses from the past mixed with science-y stuff, y'know.

[NYC Liberal]

188. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers...

But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

—Carl Sagan

It pretty much sums up your post here.

Oh and homeopathy worked then "BIG PHARMA" would be selling their own homeopathic remedies and making even more money.

[AikidoSoul]

61. Well, it took you two seconds to write that. Nothing but

cheap-shots with no substance. Shame.

[sub.theory]

276. Complete and utter quackery

Those peddling this crap deserve prison for deceiving sick people out of their money.

[pipoman]

5. Wooo

[backscatter712]

6. Homeopathy: shit and sugar.

[AikidoSoul]

22. Water does retain a memory of every type of energy on the planet

Even shit.

This post reminds me of that substance. You've obviously made no effort to study the topic other than your ad hominem, cheap shot. Do the research. It's out there and it is highly credible. Or go to my post that answers the first poster and follow some of those links.

My spouse and I have used homeopathy for decades.

When I had anaphlactic shock, my spouse gave me histamanium and it made the allergic reaction go away. This is on three occasions. When I almost died he gave me carbo vegitalis and it energized and healed me. There are many other examples... like giving our cats homeopathic remedies for conditions that resolved quickly.

And there are no nasty side effects like so many drugs.

You can thank John D. Rockefeller for destroying homeopathy in the USA for his own financial benefit, even though he had his own homeopathic physician.

[backscatter712]

28. Got proof? n/t

[AikidoSoul]

66. Can you prove that water doesn't have a memory? UNESCO covened an international

conference to explore controversial 'memory of water' research in October of 2014. Have you seen the papers that came out of that research exploration?

http://news.sciencemag.org/people-events/2014/09/unesco-host-meeting-controversial-memory-water-research

The promoters of this conference are aware of the critical reactions aroused by this work in parts of the scientific community, so they wish to communicate their results with the utmost rigor. The aim is to foster a broad and multidisciplinary discussion. These data seem particularly important because they further enrich the immense achievements of molecular biology. They also suggest the development of new modes of transmission of genetic messages (transmission, transduction, teleportation, etc.).

Montagnier says the issue is actually getting less controversial as fresh evidence for his claims is coming in. "More scientists are becoming convinced by the data," he says.

[Krytan11c]

127. Rule one of arguments

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Common knowledge doesn't require citations.
Example:
If I say the Earth is round I don't need a source because it is common knowledge.

If I say that water has memory I better have a lot of scientific data to back it up. Preferably data that can be duplicated by independent researchers.

I think it is too much to assume that your claims have such data.

[GoneOffShore]

274. The crickets are very loud.

[longship]

46. Define energy in this context.

AltMed always invokes energy and quantum when they pitch their woo-woo. They know nothing about either.

Physics defines what energy is, the ability to do work. And in doing work, the energy is degraded via thermodynamic principles, ie entropy, S = k log W

And anybody saying that they know quantum is making shit up, guaranteed! Hell! I've actually studied quantum and I can't tell people what it is even though I know some of what it says.

To say that either energy or quantum makes magic water possible is to be talking utter rubbish. If there's anything we've learned about quantum it's that anybody who talks about water memory is full of shit.

Homeopathy is rubbish, in principle.

[Lizzie Poppet]

73. "every type of energy on the planet"

What does that even mean? There are four forces on this planet (and everywhere else): electromagnetic, weak nuclear, strong nuclear, and gravitational.

How, specifically, would quantum entanglement (the only thing I can see that would involve "memory&quot between quanta in water and elsewhere invove either those forces or human bodies? No need for detail...just looking for a very brief capsule description of the premise. I can do the rest...but I need to know I'm not completely wasting my time.

[UnderDome]

94. Homeo is da bomb

New Age terrorists develop homeopathic bomb

[Kali]

162. welcome to DU

‘Homeopathic weapons are the ultimate Smart Bombs,’ warned President Obama, ‘They are so smart that they only affect the gullible. The only defence is for everyone to remain calm, vigilant and to always wear a magic vibrating crystal.’

[backscatter712]

194. That and there's also homeopathic beer.

Also known as expensive tap water.

Geez, if homeopathy actually worked, you'd think people would be using it to get wasted.

[xocet]

87. Is this the kind of 'water' which is used in homeopathy?

...

Harmonized water is a combination of waters that contain different vibrational frequencies. Unlike structured water, which addresses the tendency of water molecules to cluster together, harmonized water describes the frequencies that water carries in its proton/electron outer shell. Water has the ability to carry "frequency messages" for extended periods of time and we have found that some of these messages harmonize internal imbalances in our body.

...

[AikidoSoul]

123. There is a local alt med practitioner who gets patients

from doctors who respect his ability to heal people that the docs can't
help.

He does use water and imbues them with vibrational frequencies.

I'm not sure that it's called homeopathy, but it is a form of energy medicine.

[Krytan11c]

128. Nope not energy medicine

It's a form of bullshit, but close

[AlbertCat]

144. from doctors who respect his ability to heal people that the docs can't help.

I imagine he gets lots of referrals, because I bet doctors that believe in magic water and alt med can't help anyone with a real problem.


But there are lots of made up problems and alt med practitioners who lie about their abilities and where their patients come from.

[xocet]

201. Like in the video....? n/t

[xocet]

263. Did you watch the video?

The 'doctor' in the video (@ about 00:14) seems happy to declare water to be HO2. At least, that is what his model shows.

Is that consistent with your knowledge? As you have done, he also invokes quantum mechanics and radio frequency energy.

Does that make what he is stating correct?

[SidDithers]

269. Heheh...

the "drinkable sunscreen" guys!

The makers of Harmonized Water (a.k.a. drinkable sunscreen) do a “clinical trial.” Hilarity ensues.



Sid

[xocet]

272. Thanks for the link. I had not seen that. I spend too much time on DU relative to ScienceBlogs...

You might find this interesting: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12312752

In particular, it displays (scroll way down) their cranky idea of what 'water' is - taken straight from their video....

Their model of water is classic.

[Major Nikon]

101. Keep it up and this thread is going to surpass MoonBombing

[zappaman]

124. That's gonna be tough.

But the poster who thinks it's clever to call people "lil missy" and "ms" is trying their best.

[tkmorris]

210. I think the poster that was called "Lil Missy"

is actually named Lil Missy. Other than that I'm with you.

[backscatter712]

199. Yep. I'm sure if he just keeps posting his frantic arguments over and over, he'll change minds...

[AlbertCat]

141. Even shit.

Shit is not energy.


It is also composed of number compounds and chemicals ....different every bowel movement!


Sorry, you are ridiculous. Like a religious fundie. I don't even believe your "Exposed to toxic chemicals from outside" story. That was also probably some sort of Psycho thing... like seeing the Virgin Mary.

I'm sorry if you find that offensive, but you at this point have zero credibility. You've got the woo bad!

[snooper2]

231. Did you know water sleeps? You can get better memory retention when letting water sleep

I believe it is at 64 degree with a calm natural light, like through thin curtains- NOT DIRECT LIGHT THOUGH!

Try a 1 quart jar at a time and no lid, it must get air flow. It is also a good idea after each seven hour sleep cycle to stir VERY GENTLY!

[ProfessorGAC]

255. You Forgot About The Soothing Music

Geez, you don't know anything about science. LOL!

[bhikkhu]

264. Have you tried playing Beethoven to your jar of water?

8 hours of music exposure (not too loud) just about tops out the memory capacity of a jar of water, then you drink it and its like highly concentrated woooo...

[Logical]

244. Oh FFS, really? Nt

[NuclearDem]

7. Sure doesn't.

Homeopathy's a joke. Or it would be if s so many people didn't take it seriously.

[Binkie The Clown]

8. Next you'll say phrenology has no place in psychology.

Where's your respect for tradition?

[SwankyXomb]

239. I prefer trepanation

Just whip out the ol' Mikita cordless, and drill until the patient stops leaking idiocy.

[BlueJazz]

9. Sorry, people. I disagree. I once had a very sore throat. I had a Homeopath-e-ist make me some..

...special stuff. I only took one teaspoon of the elixir. 3 days later, I felt much better.
Scientific proof.

[Deadshot]

11. Thank your immune system.

[zappaman]

93. Well, you convinced me!

[BlueJazz]

95. Thank You, zappaman. I didn't have the courage to tell the poster before you I was kidding.

[eridani]

10. It got a strong foothold here in the 19th century, because so many remedies back then

--varied from harmful to lethal. With sugar water, at least you didn't suffer further harm--unless you are diabetic.

[Deadshot]

12. I agree.

Homeopathy has no place in pharmacy, or anywhere for that matter.

[FrodosPet]

14. That Mitchell and Webb Look: Homeopathic A&E

[nilesobek]

15. Should be laws against this sort of grifting.

It could cause harm by persuading a patient to ignore his condition and treatment in favor of ?

[Recursion]

16. I was surprised how popular it was in Austria

It seemed like a very sensible country, but every pharmacy had a big homeopathic section.

[AikidoSoul]

24. It's not just in Austria that homeopathy is used widely

It is used all over Europe and the royal family of Britain has used it for over a hundred years. They even have an in-house homeopathic physician.

Ghandi used it, as do many famous people today who are smart and have the wherewithall to know what is valid and what is not.

[Orrex]

33. It's still bullshit, no matter who buys into it.

[AikidoSoul]

79. Buying into it is a safe thing to do. It costs very little and it works. But you do need

to know which remedies are for your symptoms and medical conditions.

It's a very complicated topic of study. I'm grateful that I know doctors who have taken the time to study it and apply it to their patients. Often this is done quietly because US Medical boards are hotly controlled by those affiliated with the chem/pharm model of medicine. Some states are worse than others.

Don't cut off an avenue of knowledge and a road to healing by simply calling it by a bad name.

[HuckleB]

283. It doesn't work.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/another-review-finds-homeopathy-worthless/

[COLGATE4]

17. My God! Look at the comments following the article.

One talking about his/her doctor: "My family homeopath is both a licensed medical doctor and a homeopath (additional 4 years of study)." Wow. Just Wow!

[AikidoSoul]

25. Homeopathy is complicated. My spouse has studied the Materia Medica for over twenty years

and although he is not a doctor, he is an expert on the topic.

We chose our doctor because while he is an MD, he studied homeopathy for years. He cured a young child in our neighborhood who had severe autoimmune disease, probably due to the fact that his mom washed the dad's clothes with the family laundry. He was a pesticide operator and used highly toxic chemicals from the organophosphate family. Very sad story until the child was treated and the woman made her husband wash his own clothes in a separate washer and dryer. Also, he shed his clothes outside the house. They stripped the house of carpeting, which is like a sponge for toxicants. They also started practicing the removal of shoes before entering the house.

[COLGATE4]

26. The placebo effect is a well-understood phenomenon

in Medicine. But beyond that, the basic premise of homeopathy, i.e. 'the more dilute the solution the more powerful the remedy' defies not only basic scientific principles but logic as well. Water containing so little of any given ingredient as to be essentially undetectable is nothing more than water.

[AikidoSoul]

76. Colgate, I would love you as an ally. Would you please consider reading

my post number 75.

It gently refutes what you say in your post, but it's done by those with high level scientific credentials.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

29. There is no scientific case for homeopathy.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/12/no-scientific-case-homeopathy-remedies-pharmacists-placebos

Homeopathy is the perfect quackery - and here's why, very specifically:

The reason that homeopathy is so perfect as a form of quackery is because it is quite literally nothing. On second thought, I suppose that it’s not exactly nothing. It is, after all, water or whatever other diluent that homeopaths use (usually ethanol). However, thanks to some basic laws of physics and chemistry and a little thing known as Avogadro’s number, any homeopathic dilution greater than 12C (twelve serial 100-fold dilutions) is incredibly unlikely to contain even a single molecule of starting compound. That unlikeliness reaches truly astonishing levels as we reach the common homeopathic dilution of 30C, which is the equivalent of a 1060-fold dilution. Given that that little thing known as Avogadro’s number, which describes how many molecules of a compound are in a mole, is only approximately 6 x 1023, a 30C dilution is on the order of 1036– to 1037-fold higher than Avogadro’s number. Even assuming that a homeopath started with a mole of remedy before diluting (unlikely, given the high molecular weight of most of the organic compounds that can serve as homeopathic remedies), the odds that a single molecule could remain behind after the serial dilution and succussion process is infinitesimal. Appropriately enough, the “law” in homeopathy that states that diluting a remedy will make it stronger is the law of infinitesimals.

It is also the reason that homeopathy is nothing.

...homeopaths bravely paddle up the river of pseudoscience and invent explanations to “explain” how homeopathy could work, the most famous of which is the so-called “memory of water,” in which the water in the homeopathic remedy remembers all the good bits meant to heal but, as Tim Minchin so famously put it, somehow forgets all the poo that’s been in it. Homeopathy is truly magical thinking, which is why I love to use it as an illustrative example of quackery. Not only is it magical thinking, but because it is nothing but water, it’s a very useful educational example for placebo effects and the general types of fallacious arguments quacks and pseudoscientists make. Apparently it’s time for another one.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/homeopathy-as-nanoparticles/

[AikidoSoul]

44. Wrong. There is a scienfic case and I've made it. The author you cite is Edzard Ernst, who is

against ALL alternative medicine. Fuck, he even froths at the pen writing about acupuncture in his column at the Guardian. Anyone who has had acupuncture by someone who knows what he/she is doing, knows it is a wonderful therapy... (old chinese people are the best practitioners because they study for decades in the traditional methods).

Edzard Ernst is known as a chem/pharm shill.

He was cited for unethical behavior and retired from his university post two years early.Prince Charles of Britain accused him of having violated ethical standards in a collaboration with him about alternative medicine.

This discussion reminds me a lot of the poor bastard who was put in an insane asylum for asserting that it was necessary to wash hands at every opportunity in medical facilities and before surgeries because of contamination problems? Well, nobody at the time could see germs, so they thought the guy was nuts. Poor Ignav Semmelweis, the physician from Hungary. He was laughed at and locked up in an prison insane asylum in the 1800s. He was beaten to death by asylum guards fourteen days after he was committed.

His premise was only accepted many years later when Louis Pasteur confirmed the germ theory.

So go ahead Ocelot and take your toxic pills if they make you happy. Ignore quantum physics and homeopathy.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

45. Explain how you get around Avogadro's number.

Then we'll talk. And there are many, many debunkers of homeopathy besides Ernst. There's no proof it works. NONE. If there were, it would be widely used by real scientists. If I get cancer I'm sure as hell not going to "treat" it with water and sugar, but you're welcome to whatever woo and quackery you think will help what ails you.

[Orrex]

51. Two or three Avogadro's will make terrific guacamole!

[tkmorris]

213. The poster does not know what Avogaro's number is

Nor does she know what quantum physics is. Or any number of other "sciency" sounding words she cites.

[Godhumor]

48. So, so, so much horseshit disguised as word salad

Where did a chemist who apparently specializes in designing new molecules to be used in photodynamic therapy get such talent at throwing around quantum mechanical terms willy-nilly and applying it to the quackery known as homeopathy? Somehow, reading this, I got the feeling that, even though this particular journal claims to be rigorously peer-reviewed, the reviewers of this particular article were not quantum physicists. Homeopathy, as you recall, is the quackery in which it is claimed that by diluting an active substance to the point where not a single active molecule is likely to be present, somehow imbues the water diluting it with its therapeutic power.

...

So, when well-established laws of chemistry and physics supported by high levels of data and experimentation demonstrate that, barring the supernatural or some new discovery yet to be made that would invalidate many of our presently understood scientific laws and theories, homeopathy has to be a sham, what’s an altie to do? Invoke quantum mechanics, of course! All sorts of strange things are postulated in quantum mechanics, nonintuitive things. I particularly like Dr. Milgrom’s claim that quantum properties can be physical without being observable. Never mind how that quantum theory was derived from physical observations that didn’t fit with the existing theory of the day. Never mind that effects predicted by quantum mechanics can be observed experimentally, effects such as wave-particle duality. Speaking of which, I wonder if he’s worked out the wave function for the practitioner and the patient to use in this “quantum entanglement that he’s talking about. Of course, the fact that quantum entanglement does not violate Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, as information is not transmitted, does make the above explanation sound a bit dubious. For homeopathy to work, some sort of information would have to be transferred to the water or, in the case above, between the practitioner and the patient, perhaps via the water, all of which sounds a lot like magic (which is all homeopathy really is, magical thinking). Besides, quantum entanglement refers to particles, such as photons, and in large numbers of particles, these effects tend to average out.

...

In any case, no observable, experimentally verifiable connection between quantum theory and the alleged therapeutic effect of homeopathy has ever been shown. Of course, it doesn’t have to be, does it, if you can get away with the claim that quantum theory somehow provides a mechanism. It’s apparently a possible mechanism for homeopathy that, if we are to believe Dr. Milgrom, might not be “observable” even though it is “physical” (whatever Dr. Milgrom means by that). Even though I hadn’t taken quantum mechanics since Physical Chemistry in college, I recognized a lot of hand-waving woo when I saw it. I had to get a hold of the whole article. So I fired up my trusty browser just before I was going to leave work to see if I could download a copy of this amazing piece of quantum homeopathic altie woo in its entirety. My critical thinking skills shuddered in anticipation of the pseudsocience and quantum mysticism likely to be found within. (Deepak Chopra, anyone?) I couldn’t wait to see what kinds of equations and throwing about of quantum theory jargon Dr. Milgrom used, seeing if any of it would stick.

...

Leaving aside the unsupported assumption underlying the article that homeopathy actually “works” and that does something more than provide a nice cool drink of water to the patient seeking an actual remedy, the above explanation is breathtaking in how utterly ballsy it is. It basically comes right out and says that you can’t prove that homeopathy works and that randomized clinical trials aren’t the way to test homeopathy! After all, to the woo brigade, if homeopathy “works” by some sort of “nonlocal” effect mediated by quantum mechanics (quantum entanglement, for example, as discussed by Dr. Milgrom), then its mechanism can never be experimentally tested and verified in a double-blind randomized, placebo-controlled trial, nor, apparently, can its effects be predictable or reproducible! If homeopathy “works” by these mechanism, then, if we are to believe the above, time reversal paradoxes will prevent its mechanism from ever being scientifically studied and validated! I wonder if he’s saying that studying homeopathy would cause time to reverse itself. (Now that I’m on the wrong side of 40, I’d certainly be willing to pay for that. Imagine the possibililties for using homeopathy to reverse aging!)

---------
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/06/30/your-friday-dose-of-woo-its-no/

[longship]

62. Edzard Ernst is/was a homeopath.

I love how true believers always fling the descriptor shill around when somebody disagrees with their beliefs.

I suppose we science people are all shills for BigBio, BigChem, BigPhysics, etc. I wonder when my check is going to arrive in the mail.

Alas, the only real shills are those who support AltMed. Using the AltMed logic, I guess we could call it BigQuack.

My regards.

[longship]

30. Homeopath supporters first have to explain how it works.

The three homeopathic principles:

1. Like cures like. Rubbish! This goes against everything we know.

2. The more dilute, the stronger the effect. Utter tosh! There's this thing called dose-response, which is a principle so-called alternative medicine adherents tend to ignore. Plus, then there's Avagadro's limit, which Hahnemann knew nothing about when he invented homeopathy out of whole cloth.

3. Succussion. Don't you just love AltMed jargon? Made up words to describe made up modalities. In this case, it means "elastic collisions" which has meaning in physics, but has absolutely no meaning to efficacy of putative medications.

Homeopathy does not work because it cannot work. And, of course, this is precisely what the body of medical research shows.

It is unethical to even study homeopathy let alone prescribe it.

[AikidoSoul]

65. "goes against everything we know"

Yep.

That's why it's necessary to open up the mind and learn new things.

Homeopathy has been around for hundreds of years. If it didn't work, why is it still so popular in Europe and other countries? At least there they didn't have someone with big money clout like old man Rockefeller to kill off the homeopathy schools in their countries like he did in the USA. He wanted his investments in pharmaceuticals to take off. Which they did, and made him billions.

[longship]

81. Homeopathy has been around since 1796.

And it was invented before the germ theory of disease and Avogadro. Your argument from antiquity is a logical fallacy. Why, oh why do AltMed quacks think old thinking about healthcare is in anyway a benefit?

And your argument ad populi is equally fallacious. It matters not one bit how many people use homeopathy. It is still rubbish.

And again, the argument against BigPharma is also rubbish conspiratorial rubbish.

Homeopathy schools should be ridiculed and marginalized, just like those that teach creationism, astrology, and other anti-science kookery.

Homeopathy does nothing but do a wallet extraction, just like the rest of AltMed.

There is no such thing as alternative medicine, there is only medicine, based on science.

As to keeping an open mind, that's fine as long as one does not let ones brains fall out.

My regards.

[GoneOffShore]

242. Excellent post!

But you're trying to play chess with a pigeon.

[longship]

243. ;-) nt

[NCjack]

38. From Paul Richter, cartoon caption:

"Orthodox medicine has not found an answer to your complaint.
However, luckily for you, I happen to be a quack.”

For years, I have searched for the cartoon. If you have it, please provide a link or vendor source.

[olddots]

49. in today's world profit trumps truth

DONALD has a fitting name and the A.M.A. is a profitabe organization .

[Orrex]

50. And homeopathy is bullshit in any world

[AikidoSoul]

110. You hit the nail on the head.

Homeopathy is very inexpensive.

Drugs can be terribly expensive.

Last Friday I had to have laser eye surgery for glaucoma and the pain was awful 'cause they had to "hit" the iris
nearly 800 times to get through to relieve the pressure. I didn't know of any homeopathy drops for the pain,
so I filled the pharma type prescription. IT COST ME $104 FOR 1.7 mL of ILEVRO.

May they burn in hell for their price gouging tactics.

[Archae]

59. On the old Fidonet...

There was (still is? I don't know) a forum called "Holysmoke."

It was called a "religious food fight."

We had our share of fundys, trolls, and people who simply were nasty.

We had one group of the religious, we called them &quot Bleep) - ing True Believers."

They were the people who no matter what evidence was shown, still believed fervently their pet fairy tales.

You can see a bunch of them here:

http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/quotes.htm

It looks like we have a homeopathy FTB in this thread.

[AikidoSoul]

116. DUers are notoriously ignorant of real science, but that doesn't stop many from

playing out a game of kill the messenger with shallow debate tactics.

No wonder there are almost zero scientific posts here.

Use to be, but there was no debate, only Argumentum Ad Populem, diversionary comments, and plain old name calling.

Hasn't changed much.

[zappaman]

126. Lol!

You've certainly proven your own point.

[Archae]

136. Of course.

Has absolutely zero evidence to back up this contention that homeopathy is real, but continues to advocate like a fundy creationist anyway.

"It's real 'cause I SAID SO!"

[SidDithers]

69. I can't believe there are DUers arguing for homeopathy...

Oh wait. Yes I can.

I wonder if the BFEE manufactures homeopathic solutions, or is responsible for homeopathic provings.



Sid

[AikidoSoul]

105. Huh? Are you doing a magic trick using a distraction technique Mr. Dithers?

Focus, focus, focus.

Try some serious searching in the medical / scientific literature.

[SidDithers]

118. Explain how an extreme dilution of any homeopathic solution...

gets around the limit imposed by Avogadro's Number.

I'll wait while you google what Avogadro's Number is.

Sid

[Major Nikon]

157. Yeah, like NaturalNews

[Act_of_Reparation]

224. Fifteen years ago, I might have argued that liberals accept science where conservatives do not.

Nothing has been more instrumental to slapping that nonsense out of my head than DU.

[alarimer]

238. I find it mostly depends on the science.

Global warming denial tends to break along ideological lines, as does a lot of things related to the environment and conservation.

BUT new-agey stuff like homeopathy, yoga, mindfulness (I find the jury still pretty much out on that), alternative medicine, vaccine denial tend to be embraced by liberals. Except that vaccine resistance also has a nutty anti-government libertarian component too.

Oh, and GMOs. Boy do I (as a progressive) hate, hate, hate having to defend mega-corporations, but GMO foods have not been shown to be harmful for human consumption. So I get into arguments all the time here.

[Major Nikon]

251. The science is not really done by mega-corporations

The vast majority of GMO research is done in universities, with some of that being financed by grant money from mega-corporations. Some of it is also financed by the universities themselves, or by state, federal, or non-profit grants.

While the anti-GMO crowd likes to pretend most people are against it, the reality is that the vast majority of people don't even have a clue what GMO is or isn't. Those that are learning are now starting to realize that the vapid resistance to it relies heavily on pseudo-science and just garden variety nonsense. While that crowd is accusing everyone who disagrees with them of being on Monsanto's payroll (which is just fucking stupid), the reality is whether they realize it or not, their strings are being pulled by those who have an interest in decreasing the GMO market share for their own financial gain.

[Johnny2X2X]

261. Ditto

I absolutely abhor having to defend GMOs, but the science is very clear that they are not shown to be harmful. Any Facebook debate devolves into me having to say something like, "Yeah, Mansanto are a bunch of dicks for the way they do business, but that has nothing to do with the science behind GMOs being safe."

Science and Reason are lacking on both sides from time to time.

[SwankyXomb]

240. You've been here long enough to know

that there is NO argument that at least one DUer won't make, no matter how ... let's use "misguided" ... it may seem.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

85. If homeopathy actually worked, even for some things sometimes,

Big Pharma would have been all over it years ago; they'd have been selling the stuff at monstrously inflated markups and making a fortune. And some scientists would have published peer-reviewed articles based on blind studies and lots of data, and if homeopathy were proven through legitimate research to cure cancer, or even the common cold, they'd have got a Nobel Prize. But even Big Pharma won't sell products unless they've been tested and at least sort of work - the problem with the big drug manufacturers (apart from price gouging) are not that their drugs don't work - mostly, they do - it's that some of them have nasty but undisclosed side effects. So if homeopathic "medicine" were provably useful for anything, seems to me that Merck and the other big drug companies would be capitalizing on it. But they aren't. QED.

[AikidoSoul]

99. Big Pharma CANNOT make a profit from substances that it cannot patent.

Big Pharma uses petrochemicals and coal tar to produce its drugs - not natural substances

The idea of using molecular substances' signatures is the opposite of Big Pharma's toxic mixture paradigm.

Energy medicine is on the cutting edge as more and more research proves it. Too bad it's not promoted by the MSM. Just look at the MSM advertisers -- most of them originate from Big Pharma. Are you surprised that you are so brainwashed?

What Big Pharma does is the OPPOSITE of homeopathy.

Even if they wanted to, its corporate culture would not permit them to co-opt it in any way. Why? Their strategy is to spread iatrogenic medicine with so many side effects that the patients contine to get sick with symptoms. It's good for business.

Yeah... they do synthesize natural stuff, and yeah... lots of potent chemicals come out of the mix. Remember the drone type voice with all the side effects. Remember all the commercials asking if you or your family have been injured by x,y, z etc.

Homeopathy does work, but most doctors don't know anything about it and therefore cannot make good decisions on how it is used.

Yes, I'm the only one supporting homeopathy on this site, but that doens't mean that I'm wrong. It just means that so many of you are brainwashed. Too bad for you and your children IMHO.

[jberryhill]

134. Bullshit. Bayer makes billions on aspirin

[AlbertCat]

147. Bayer makes billions on aspirin

Which comes from tree bark! The Native Americans knew about it before white men came here.

But, y'see.... it WORKS! Unlike homeopathy...which hasn't worked since it was made up in the 18th century.



so...QED again....

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

203. And then there's digitalis, which comes from the foxglove plant

and in the form of the drug digoxin is used to treat some heart problems. Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) is a chemical, too. And so are opium, morphine and heroin, which come from the poppy plant. And cocaine (which does have some medicinal uses), from the coca plant. And penicillin, from the penicillium mold. All of these medicines are "natural," in the sense that they are directly derived from plants, and they are all chemicals. Water is a chemical: hydrogen dioxide. When you get right down to it, anything is a "chemical" if all samples of it have the same composition. Chemical substances created by an artificial process are not necessarily harmful, and natural chemicals are not necessarily harmless. It is absurd to say that if something is natural it must necessarily be good (cobra venom, amanita mushrooms and box jellyfish venom, for example, are not good things), and that if something is created in a laboratory it must be bad. Or to claim that "chemicals" are bad. Everything is chemicals.

[AikidoSoul]

208. many drugs derived from plants have been synthesized by BigPharma, a/k/a

the chemical/pharmaceutical company.

Digitalis is synthesized. Early forms of the drug were derived from the purple Fox Glove plant (digitalis purpurea). Even marijuana has been synthesized and it is an unmitigated disaster. Pyrethroids are derived from the molecule from an African Chrysanthenum, but it too was synthesized and another synthetic chemical, pipronyl butoxide, was added to prolong it's effects.

Nobody here is claiming that all chemicals are synthetic. Nobody here is saying that all chemicals are bad. Of course chemicals occur naturally in all kinds of animals, plants, rocks, etc. Nobody is debating that.

And small amounts of arsenic can be good for the heart. But you knew that already, right? Most likely that's why arsenicum is used for heart trouble in homeopathy.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

212. Except that there isn't any arsenicum in homeopathic remedies.

There isn't anything in it but water. That's the whole point! There's nothing in it but the chemical hydrogen dioxide.

[AlbertCat]

235. And small amounts of arsenic can be good for the heart.

It ain't that simple (of course)

http://www.livescience.com/23304-arsenic-rice-fda-health-effects.html


"3. What's the difference between organic arsenic and inorganic arsenic?

Atoms of arsenic bond with other elements to form molecules — if carbon is one of these elements, then the arsenic compound is an organic compound. If there is no carbon present, then the arsenic compound is in an inorganic compound. (When the term "organic" is used in this way, it refers to the chemical elements present, and differs completely from the "organic" label that is applied to some foods. Both organic and conventionally-grown foods may contain arsenic, according to the FDA. )

Inorganic arsenic is a known human carcinogen — it is this form of arsenic that is linked with increased risks of cancer and other health effects."

Arsenic is in fruits and veggies already....so if you eat, you get small amounts (bonded with carbon) already. Drinking homeopathic water still is just drinking water.

Just like cyanide is in apples and cherries (in the seeds and pits) but of course "Organic nitriles do not readily release cyanide ions, and so have low toxicities."

See...chemistry is complicated. Homeopathy is not. It's a made up fantasy from the 18th century.

[darkangel218]

143. +1

[Kali]

168. aw, it looks like there might be one person to defend and protect

your utter lack of credible assertions.

science - it isn't what you are claiming it is

[Syzygy321]

179. "Their strategy is to spread medicine with

so many side effects that patients continue to get sick from symptoms."

Okay, here I gotta put my foot down. You've crossed over from "I have faith in something unproven" to "I make nasty and illogical allegations against complete strangers."

When a medicine causes distressing side effects, people QUIT taking it and don't buy more. Same result if it fails to help them. In both cases the drug company's profits are impaired. So that would be a pretty wacky "strategy."

Come on. You're now in CT territory.

[X_Digger]

198. Oh look, the natural fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

Arsenic is found in nature. I don't fancy a cup of it, do you?

What Big Pharma does is the OPPOSITE of homeopathy.

Unintentionally, I'm sure, but this is the only TRUE statement you've made in this thread.

[Liberal Veteran]

237. "What Big Pharma does is the OPPOSITE of homeopathy." - That's a good thing.

I like my medicine to actually contain medicine.

[Logical]

247. Yes, it does mean you are wrong. Nt

[zappaman]

253. Big pharma!

[edhopper]

89. It is heartening to see

that there is only one poster defending (or desperately trying to) this anti-science, quack hogwash.

[zappaman]

92. Well done!

There's always one "scientist" who will point to natural news...

[AikidoSoul]

103. Ms. Zappaman, I'm sure "Natural News" is not all bad although it's only one source of information

about homeopathy that I cited. I also cited peer reviewed studies. There were other sources, but it's telling that you chose only the one that you consider to be to unreliable. Is that called "cherrypicking" to make me look bad as you jump on this bandwagon of skeptics?

The press does not always get it right and God knows that scientific inquiry is a long process. Homeopathy has been on this earth for over two hundred years. The first homeopathy medical school in the USA was established in the late 1800s. In the early 1900s there were 22 medical schools, over a hundred homeopathic hospitals, and over a thousand homeopathic pharmacies. Boston University, Stanford University, and New York Medical College were among those institutions that were teaching homeopathy .. a medical discipline well respected by many. But now that is true mostly in other countries.

Old man Rockefeller singlehandedly destroyed homeopathy for his own gain. He would be so proud to see how deeply his propaganda has sunk into the brains of Americans.

News sources reliable all the time? Some of the time? I don't know of any that is right all the time.... so bash me for whatever source you find repulsive, but don't forget to see the forest as you cut down this tree.

[zappaman]

122. I'm guessing you think it's funny/insulting to refer to people as female.

With the intellect you've displayed on this thread, it's not surprising.

[AlbertCat]

150. I'm guessing you think it's funny/insulting to refer to people as female.

I'll bet aikido soul thinks your avatar is a pic of you.

[AikidoSoul]

211. I made no mention of the word "female" zappaman. NT

[zappaman]

221. Oh, you dropped the Ms this time.

You're not fooling anyone.

[Kali]

145. and a genuine "medical professional" too!

+1

[darkangel218]

146. Just like you, who didn't know what a "student nurse " was, and accused me of "making it up"

The hypocrisy!

[Kali]

155. gosh that makes so much sense!

no wonder you like coors light, it is watered down to the point of not being beer anymore. kind of like homeopathic "remedies"

[darkangel218]

166. You should Google student nurse. I know you have 0 medical training, that is why

I find humurous how you give your opinion regarding medical stuff. You still think the term "student nurse" doesn't exist? As always, very entertaining, even two years later.
And as far as Coors, I stopped drinking it years ago. Try to keep it up, Kali! You're disappointing me!!!

[snooper2]

232. Did you know student nurses are not allowed in the spirit world?

[tammywammy]

161. Did you ever figure out that diet and acupuncture aren't homeopathic?

Or that natural remedies aren't homeopathy either?

[darkangel218]

167. Oh yah. They are however, part of alternative medicine, which you still call quakery.

[tammywammy]

171. Actually, you have no idea what I consider quackery.

I'm just glad that since you say you're a nurse you've learned that diet isn't homeopathy.

[darkangel218]

173. I actually have a pretty good idea, from your previous posts.

Now , if you can please educate Kali on what a student nurse is, so she may not harrass future posters?

Cheers!

[tammywammy]

174. I'm sure she knows what a student nurse is

She just doesn't believe you are a nurse.

[darkangel218]

176. She didn't know what a student nurse was years ago.

And LMAO at the rest of your post. LOL!!!!

[tammywammy]

181. I could not care less about your squabble with Kali.

I'm just glad you learned diet isn't homeopathic. I'm concerned that as a nurse you think homeopathy is an acceptable medical treatment.

[darkangel218]

183. You could not care less?

Yah right!! http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027034477

And you should know the importance of education. You should educate your friend, so she may not harrass other possible nurses/nursing students here on DU.

Have a wonderful evening!

[darkangel218]

187. BTW, FYI, many hospitals here in FL, include alternative medicine in their plan of care.

We work in treating the patient as a whole, body, mind and soul. All 3 are important in a better outcome for the patient.

[tkmorris]

217. There are ALWAYS people willing to take your money

"Oh you want 'alternative' medicine? Sure, we can do that. Right this way Sir or Madam..."

[Kali]

196. please won't you educate me about what a student nurse is?

because I really don't know. I am sure someone could link to all the times I have asked and nobody would tell me...

I am so sad that I don't know what a student nurse is.


-------------------------------------


you know, it is kind of hard to do satire of absurdity. where the fuck did she come up with this? I don't know what a student nurse is?

what I don't know is how any student who has supposedly passed through post-high school education can be so inept in science, math, logic, and critical thinking. I sure as hell hope nobody treating me at any medical facility was the same kind of student nurse.

[darkangel218]

223. You forget quickly what you post in the past , don't you??

Obviously there are many things you don't know. Education is the key, hun. Never too late to learn new things!!!

[Kali]

226. well, when you link to it and we all see how you are totally off the wall wrong,

that will be yet another incident of your utter lack of credibility.

until then most will know it is a silly figment of your vivid imagination. there are plenty here who remember your sudden nursing "accomplishment" and your many, many, MANY hidden posts (100 +) time-outs, CBCW posts, self-deleted embarrassments, and your extreme fondness for a homeopathic-like beer brand. never mind your love for conservatives, Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.

post a link or stop embarrassing yourself with the goofy idea that anybody here doesn't know what a student nurse is.

[darkangel218]

245. Blah blah blah lol!

Same old from you, so boring

You know you said it, in your dozens of nasty attacks against me over the years. Are you denying that too? Oh, and what does RR have to do with anything? You are so predictable.

[Kali]

265. indeed - blah blah blah

no proof, ever. just wild off-the-wall bullshit. and more projection.

until you post one link showing I don't know what a student nurse is, I doubt even your 3 or 4 "friends" believe you.

you have zero credibility with anybody that knows your history.

[MADem]

104. It absolutely does work--and here's how!!!!!!

http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/what-is-the-placebo-effect#2

What Is the Placebo Effect?
Sometimes a person can have a response to a placebo. The response can be positive or negative. For instance, the person's symptoms may improve. Or the person may have what appears to be side effects from the treatment. These responses are known as the "placebo effect."

There are some conditions in which a placebo can produce results even when people know they are taking a placebo. Studies show that placebos can have an effect on conditions such as:

Depression
Pain
Sleep disorders
Irritable bowel syndrome
Menopause

In one study involving asthma, people using a placebo inhaler did no better on breathing tests than sitting and doing nothing. But when researchers asked for people's perception of how they felt, the placebo inhaler was reported as being as effective as medicine in providing relief.

How Does the Placebo Effect Work?
Research on the placebo effect has focused on the relationship of mind and body. One of the most common theories is that the placebo effect is due to a person's expectations. If a person expects a pill to do something, then it's possible that the body's own chemistry can cause effects similar to what a medication might have caused.

[tammywammy]

106. ....

[AikidoSoul]

107. There is also solid evidence that the "Placebo Effect" is evident

in people who take standard drugs. There's also the fact that about fifty percent of the public metabolize
drugs so quickly that they leave the system quickly. IMHO this is good, because the poor
metabolizers can get awfully sick sometimes as the drugs don't metabolize well.

The placebo effect is evident in all drugs including homeopathy. You can include prayer, Quantum Touch, massage, and any other treatment modality where there is an intervention perceived as positive and caring.

The mind/body connection is a powerful thing. MADem is making a good point.

[MADem]

109. The point is, though, I could give you sterilized dog poop and TELL you it was homeopathic,

and assuming you believed it, it's the MIND-BODY thing that stimulates the healing, not some molecules in water that you paid twenty bucks for.

Homeopathy is a RACKET. Don't waste your money on it, and don't waste your breath defending it. It's not even woo. It's just nonsense. Smart people know better--and even people who like to bullshit themselves, in their hearts, know better.

You don't need to pay money to get that. You just need to believe in your body's ability to heal.

[SidDithers]

114. Homeopathic dog poop is available, btw...

It's called EXCREMENTUM CANINUM.

http://provings.info/en/substanz/Excr-can



Can you believe that shit?



Sid

[tkmorris]

218. Seriously? That's a thing?

Fuck me, I am just not cynical enough.

[AikidoSoul]

170. It's a little difficult to stop anaphlactic shock with the "placebo effect" as it is a serious, life

threatening condition where the throat closes up and suffocation starts. No way this can be stopped by placebo.
The reaction stopped immediately when given a histamanium homeopathic remedy in three strengths. Now I eat organically raised meat, or venison, and have had no re-occurence of those problems.

Ma Dem, if you think homeopathy is a racket -- fine. That's for you.

I'm grateful to have it in our health arsenal as it has done wonders for all of us, including our animals.

Animals -- are they subject to the placebo effect I wonder?

[womanofthehills]

195. My allergy dr uses homeopathy

She is connected to a large hospital. She has been the only dr who has been able to help people with environmental illness in my area. In fact, my old allergy dr suggested I see this dr. He told me she was the only dr having success with multiple chemical sensitivity patients
She helped me tremendously and has a huge practice.

I bet everyone on this board who is putting homeopathy down has never even tried it.

Mention anything to do with alternative health on DU, and people will attack you with such contempt. I see this over on the health boards.

I'm with you AikidoSoul - I also had a problem with my throat closing up- reactive airway disease. I moved to the high desert, eat only organically, and take zero pharma drugs. I have no re-occurence either.

[AikidoSoul]

215. So glad to hear that you're doing well. Both MCS and its close cousin Toxic Encephalopathy are

a terrible challenge for those of us who have it.

When I had to have a five hour surgery in 2007, I found an exquisitely talented surgeon with her own private
clinic near Cleveland. She gave me Arnica Montana for pain, and I didn't suffer even one minute of discomfort.

Yes, homeopathy works. Most DUers have no clue how to use homeopathy to benefit them. It takes real study, such as reading the Materia Medica and making copious notes.

I too know doctors who treat people with homeopathy with great success. It's hard to believe that so many
DUers are clueless about alternative medicine modalities.

[darkangel218]

169. Yes.

There are peer reviewed studies online which can support what you just said. The placebo effect exists, and has been found beneficial to patient outcome plenty of times.

[Major Nikon]

172. That's why such drugs must demonstrate repeatable efficacy

Unlike Homeoquackery.

[Thor_MN]

192. Yes, a lot of value in "cures" relying on ignorance...

If the person being treated is kept ignorant of the fact that the are getting something with absolutely no health value, some of the those people's bodies heal themselves. Others got on to die, but that is not the quacks fault, the person just did not believe in the "cure" enough.

[darkangel218]

193. Don't waste your time with them .

Seriously.

[AikidoSoul]

216. Thank you for your sweet comment. I've been beat up a lot here tonight.

It's so good to find a friend.

[GoneOffShore]

273. Enjoy the embrace of the woo.

Because it's woo.

[840high]

279. I'm a friend.

[HuckleB]

284. Duh. That does not justify promoting quackery.

[LostOne4Ever]

119. +100 nt

[LostOne4Ever]

120. Homeopathy is pseudoscience. nt

[GoneOffShore]

275. With a large helping of horseshit.

[Agnosticsherbet]

160. Hokey religions and ancient superstition are no match for real medicine.

The natural way to deal with disease is to let the week die and the survivors with some natural resistance to reproduce.

It's inhumane, of course, but that's nature.

[Liberal Veteran]

197. People who believe in homeopathy are suffering from chakra misalignment.

I have a friend who will sell you crystals that will balance your energies and make you healthier than you could imagine.

[davidpdx]

207. I know very little about homopathy

but I have a friend who is studying it. She posts a lot about it on her Facebook feed as well as anti-vaccination stuff. I tend to just stay clear of it and not say anything.

[Arugula Latte]

214. Long story short: it's moronic quackery.

Homeopathy says water has a "memory."

Yeeeeah, no.

[backscatter712]

219. Gotta explain it in a little more detail...

First principle: Homeopathy treats you by giving you a bit of the hair of the dog that bit you. This is obviously why they use arsenic to treat the flu...

Second principle. Because giving patients substances like arsenic causes unwanted side effects like death, homeopaths have developed the advanced technique of diluting said substances by tens of orders of magnitude - a typical dilution is 30X, or one part in 10 to the 30th power. Diluting to 1 in 10^30 guarantees that there is not one single molecule of the substance in the solution, so they're giving the patient water, or a sugar pill with a drop of that water dripped on it.

Homeopaths will justify the dilution technique by telling you that diluting a solution makes it stronger.

When homeopaths are confronted with the issues of dilution by those with some knowledge of, well, chemistry and physics, they start spouting theories like "water memory" and "quantum vibrations" to explain how their magic water and sugar pills work.

After that, all that's left is the comedy...

[davidpdx]

220. Yeah, the chemistry and physics parts are not something I understand at all

Which is why I steer clear of having an opinion. Probably the only exception is the anti-vaccination stuff which upsets me a bit.

I was never interested in or study the "hard" sciences in school and always opted for social science. My grandfather was a physicist and a brilliant man. I could never understand his work because its complexity. When it came to the business side of things he was not as talented. Funny enough, that's what I opted to study. So neither one of us could understand the other's work.

I did get my brains from that side of the family though, so everything worked out.

[backscatter712]

250. I'll give you some relevant bits.

Last edited Mon Aug 3, 2015, 03:49 PM - Edit history (1)

People in homeopathy flame threads talk about Avogadro's number. That number is approximately 6.02*10^23, or 602 with 21 more zeroes after it.

Avogadro's number is defined as the number of atoms in 12 grams of Carbon-12. This is the basis for a unit of measurement in chemistry known as a mole. A dozen is 12 of something, a mole is Avogadro's number of something.

And that's useful in chemistry, because now you can have your chemicals measured in units directly proportional to the number of molecules in them, so you can mix one mole of oxygen (which comes as molecules of two oxygen atoms each (O2)) with two moles of hydrogen (it also comes in molecules of two hydrogen atoms bonded to each other (H2)), burn them together, and end up with two moles of water. 2H2 + 1O2 => 2H20.

What does that have to do with homeopathy? Remember that homeopaths like to dilute the hell out of their preparations. And they express their dilutions using orders of magnitude. A common unit is "X", which is a power of 10. And a common level of dilution is 30X, with is 10^30, or 1 with 30 zeroes after it.

30 orders of magnitude, compared with Avogadro's Number, which is 6.02 times 10 to the 23rd power. There's the rub.

Say you have 1 gram of your substance. Dilute it 1 part to 10 parts water. Take that solution and dilute it again, and again, and again... Repeat until you've diluted 30 times. Now you have 1 part in 10^30th probably given to you either in a little vial of liquid with has maybe a few milliliters in it, or in the form of sugar pills that have had this dilution dripped on them.

Counting the orders of magnitude, we see that the homeopath diluted his preparation to the point where THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE MOLECULE OF THE SUBSTANCE IN THE SOLUTION. It's been diluted a million-fold past Avogadro's Number. There is nothing left. All gone. Says so right in the math.

All the homeopaths have to say when confronted with this is woowoo about how "harmonic frequencies" are left in the water, or there's "quantum vibrations" that somehow give water a "memory" of what used to be in it. Which is all nonsense that does not have a single bit of reputable peer-reviewed scientific evidence to back it up.

When you go to the pharmacy and buy that little vial of water or bottle of sugar pills, there's nothing in them. You're taking a placebo.

[PasadenaTrudy]

256. I was an art major in college

but I'm logical enough to know that water memory is crap. I steer clear of pseudoscience! If I'm sick, I want the real deal meds.

[Johnny2X2X]

260. Spot on

There is literally nothing left of a substance diluted this many times.

Homeopathy is completely a placebo, there are zero effects to it that cannot be attributed to taking a placebo.

The anti-Science Left can be just as dumb as the anti-Science Right sometimes.

[davidpdx]

280. Thanks

I understand the latter part, but the first part went *whoosh* over my head.

I have a quick question for you while I'm thinking about it. I have a friend who is taking organic sulfur for weight loss. Is that along the same kind of thing?

[backscatter712]

285. Not really.

I googled around to see what organic sulfur actually does in terms of weight loss, and I get a lot of the web sites like Mercola and Natural News that IMHO are not credible. I'm actually not sure if the stuff is effective or not.

However, by taking sulfur, your friend is actually taking a real substance, and not just a placebo. Whether that substance works is another matter.

In my personal experience, there's no shortcut when it comes to weight loss. I've found it effective to eat fewer calories than my body burns, and to exercise both to burn more calories, and to boost my dopamine to make it easier to stick to my diet.

[davidpdx]

289. Thanks

I too am trying to lose weight. I've been drinking protein shakes for lunch and they have helped some. My real downfall is Coke. I know it's bad for me, but I'm so addicted to it. I have cut out almost all the garbage food and I eat banana chips for a snack. It's rare for me to go out to eat since will probably end up being detrimental to for me. I have to get back down to 100 kg by next summer when we visit the US. Even then, I'd love to go lower if possible. Just dipping under 100 kg would be a BFD for me.

[Rex]

258. I did not know they are allowed to sell homeopathic remedies at pharmacies.

Things one learns on the Intertubes.

[LeftyMom]

278. They sell homeopathic asthma inhalers.

[backscatter712]

286. That's disturbing. People die of asthma.

This is where homeopathy goes from being merely silly to being potentially deadly. When you have a person suffering from an illness that can potentially kill, giving that person what is essentially a placebo to treat it is profoundly irresponsible.

[LeftyMom]

287. Absolutely.

Here it is at Target.

Sadly, I think this product exists because a real OTC inhaler (Primatene Mist) is no longer manufactured, and the prescription inhaler prices went through the roof when the FDA bizarrely decided non-CFC versions were new medicines with new patent protection. People can't afford real rescue inhalers.