In Beijing's backyard, U.S. demonstrates its military might

[jgo]

Source: Reuters

Over a few hours under grey skies, dozens of combat planes and helicopters roar on and off the flight deck of the aircraft carrier Nimitz, in a demonstration of U.S. military power in some of the world's most hotly contested waters.

The group's commander, Rear Admiral Christopher Sweeney, said the tour was part of a U.S. commitment to uphold freedom of passage in the waters and airspace of a region vital to global trade.

A U.S. presence in the South China Sea, a conduit for about $3.4 trillion of annual trade, has been welcomed by allies like Japan, South Korea, the Philippines and Australia, but it continues to rile rival China, which sees the exercises as provocations in its backyard.

China claims historic jurisdiction over almost the entire South China Sea, which includes the exclusive economic zones of Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and the Philippines.

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/world/beijings-backyard-us-demonstrates-its-military-might-2023-01-27/

[Evolve Dammit]

1. I don't think there is a choice, either with China or Russia/ Ukraine. We need to be there.

Autocracies are on the rise and may soon be coming here if we don't stand up and counter it.

[Irish_Dem]

8. +1

[Alexander Of Assyria]

28. Autocracy doesnt come externally, it comes from rot within...checkout last two years in USA??

China invading America?? If you mean the hearts of American consumers and Walmart shoppers, invasion complete!!

Though the fiction of thinking so keep the money flowing into the Pentagon by he near trillion a year!

[Evolve Dammit]

60. You are correct about our home grown internal rot. And I've never been a military industrial

complex proponent but this feels different and some Generals are articulating that. I don't want to see Ukraine be further exterminated and Taiwan seems especially vulnerable and sought after by Xi. Gorbochav commented about 5 years ago that "It seems as if the world is preparing for war." Hope he is wrong but knows way more than I do.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

62. Taiwan is especially sought after by Xi and this Congress? That would be huge news!

[Evolve Dammit]

68. What are you talking about? Congress?

[EX500rider]

120. The National People's Congress (NPC)

The National People's Congress (NPC) is the national legislature and constitutionally the supreme state authority of the People's Republic of China.

As China is an authoritarian state, the NPC has been characterized as a rubber stamp for the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) or as only being able to affect issues of low sensitivity and salience to the Chinese regime. Most delegates to the NPC are officially elected by local people's congresses at the provincial level; local legislatures which are indirectly elected at all levels except the county-level. The CCP controls nomination and election processes at every level in the people's congress system, allowing it to stamp out any opposition.

[Evolve Dammit]

126. Thanks for the info.

[Woodswalker]

2. We can't win a war against China

so all this military posturing is nothing but hokum. And the Chinese know it. The only reason they haven't walked thru Taiwan yet is because they don't want to piss off their very best customer, the US

[reACTIONary]

9. Neither can the Chinese win a war with the US because of....

.... nukes.

[apnu]

87. We don't need nukes to pancake much of China's population

Our standard munitions and delivery systems (bombers, jets, drones) can wipe the population centers of China off the map in hours.

But, China has nukes where they don't have conventual means to cripple America and would use them. I suspect Russia would pile in with China, even if 90% of their nukes fail to launch, I suspect this because of how bad Russia's gear is in Ukraine. Even 10% launch success is bad. Any one nuke is bad.

But there is no "winning" in a military conflict between the US and China. All wars now are quagmires, something that both the US and China cannot afford. Pretend there are no nukes and this conflict would mutually destroy the US and China as we know them today.

[reACTIONary]

90. Agreed... Quagmires conducted by...

.... proxies.

And I agree that (absent nukes) America's military would make mincemeat of the PLA. The Nimitz's operation is significant in this regard. For a long time the PLA did not have any aircraft carriers. They now, after a long march (ha ha) have three, but lack the ability to actually use them in any effective way. The spectacle of wave after wave of aircraft streaming off of and back onto the Nimitz is a hamulating reminder of where they actually stand.

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-has-aircraft-carriers-but-struggles-to-train-enough-pilots-2022-10#:~:text=China%20now%20has%20three%20aircraft,carrier%20aircraft%2C%20one%20expert%20said.

[EX500rider]

121. I suspect Russia would sit that one out.

Risking all their cities and military bases to help the Chinese is unlikely, they are more Friendemies then allies, I think Russia wouldn't mind their destruction, China has eyes on Russia's far east, lots of room and natural resource's.

[Irish_Dem]

10. Why do you think the US cannot win a war against China?

I am not disagreeing with you necessarily, but would like to hear your thought process.

[Woodswalker]

13. Nukes

[Irish_Dem]

14. Same thing Putin is doing?

And we cave because we are afraid of him?

ETA also China is cornering the world's rare earth minerals so they can have us over a barrel.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

34. America isnt at war with Russia, and if so....Nukes!

America isnt at war with China, if so…Nukes!

America isnt at war with North Korea, though wants to be…Nukes!

America isnt at war with India…if so…Nukes!

Etc. Nukes!

Why bother with conventional arms or war or vast waste of money….Nukes!

[ancianita]

17. US has more nukes, and closer.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

29. Think poster means conventional war. Nuke war no one wins, so USA also loses war against

North Korea, India, Israel, etc.

Conventional war is for local areas the nuclear armed and conventional armed to the teeth nations of the West want to control.

[EX500rider]

55. What about nukes? China wants ZERO part of nuclear war with the US

Last edited Mon Jan 30, 2023, 12:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Ever compared the number of operational long range nuclear forces between the US & China?

Between bombers, subs & ICBM"s we could glass over their country, they have an estimated:

The U.S. Department of Defense 2013 report to Congress on China's military developments stated that the Chinese nuclear arsenal consists of 50–75 ICBMs, located in both land-based silos and Ballistic missile submarine platforms

As of 2017, the US has an estimated 4,018 nuclear weapons in either deployment or storage.

Most their stuff is short range to keep the Russians & neighbors scared.

You have to fire 2 at each target to be even halfway assured of hitting it (esp as ICBM's have never been fired on a polar trajectory, unknown how the magnetic N pole would affect accuracy) and between malfunctions and intercepts and inaccuracy the Chinese have a very low chance of hurting the US capacity to wipe China off the map. Make that zero chance.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_of_the_United_States

[EX500rider]

12. I'd say we could win or hurt them enough so they call for ceasefire

Keep attack subs off their coast and sink anything that floats. Plant a bunch of sea mines Anything that slips through take out with harpoon cruise missiles.
Their economy would crash fast.
A billion people out of work would be big trouble for them.

[Woodswalker]

25. But what happens to us when the Chinese goods stop coming

we'll be wiping our asses with leaves

[machoneman]

37. Hey, corncobs work well. Alas, they don't flush well!

[EX500rider]

49. I think them not selling their crap hurts them more than us not buying their crap

And very few things are they the only producer they just has happen to be the cheapest.

Also if they fight a war with us they risk us just ripping up and nullifying all the bonds we owe them. That would free up a lot of money to buy stuff other places or produce it here.

[ShazzieB]

95. I agree about the effects of us not buying their crap

Good point about the bonds, too.

[jgmiller]

65. I really don't understand what XI's end game is

With Putin he knew we wouldn't attack him for going into Ukraine. Taiwan is different and even if we just abandoned Taiwan we would embargo China which means their economy would be crushed. If we defend Taiwan we lose a lot of soldiers and equipment and so does China but China's economy is also crushed. In both of these scenarios our economy and the world's also doesn't do well but it can recover a lot quicker than China's.

Either way you cut it China loses all of the progress they have made over the last 20 years and probably sets them back even more. All over an island that doesn't want to be part of their country?

XI is not a lunatic from what I can see and there just isn't any winning move in going after Taiwan. Even if they take Taiwan it's not like they are getting any resources or technology they don't have.

[EX500rider]

122. And the US makes our own TP

According to a blog published by Alliance of American Manufacturing, approximately 90% of all toilet paper purchased in the U.S. is made on their own land, therefore pulp and papermakers in the U.S. work overtime to keep stores stocked.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

30. There isn't a war yet, so stand down soldier!

[former9thward]

96. Don't try to stop an armchair general!

[EX500rider]

107. Actually that's what I've read at some of the strategic military websites

Last edited Mon Jan 30, 2023, 01:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Mine Chinese ports, attack subs off their Coast, shut down their economy, no need for a ground war.
They import a lot of their food and oil so shipping is a vital necessity for China.

[former9thward]

111. I wonder why all that did not work in any other Asian country where we have lost.

There are a bunch; N. Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and a bunch of other small scale battles. BTW we fought China in the early 50s in Korea. They pushed our troops back to the sea. And that was when their military was almost nothing and had almost no resources.

[EX500rider]

112. Well 1st a war with China would not be a land war

It would be a naval war over the South China Sea or over a attempted naval invasion of Taiwan.
Both of those can be solved with a sea war. In both cases a naval blockade of China which imports most it's food & oil.
N. Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya were all land wars.

And yes 1.4 million Chinese + 266,000 N Koreans did managed to push back the never more then 326,000 US troops for awhile before being stopped and pushed back over the 38th parallel.

The U.S. suffered 33,686 battle deaths, while Western sources estimate the Chinese suffered about 400,000 killed and 486,000 wounded, while the N Korean military suffered 215,000 killed and 303,000 wounded.

[OnlinePoker]

19. An invasion of Taiwan would be no cake walk for China

Being on an island, all troops, every piece of equipment, ammunition, etc. have to be either shipped in or flown in. The closest China is to Taiwan is 180 km, more than enough time to scramble alert squadrons on the island to intercept incoming forces from the mainland. Taiwan has a fairly robust navy including 31 fast attack missile boats, destroyers, frigates, and subs. There is no way an invasion force wouldn't be detected. And Taiwan has a 160,000 man professional army with another 70,000 completing mandatory conscription every year (currently 4 months but being increased to a full year). With the U.S. pledge to protect Taiwan, China's navy would have a hard time fighting both the Taiwanese navy and a U.S. carrier battle group plus other sub-sea assets that have been pre-positioned.

[LS_Editor]

59. Japan would also get involved.

[mpcamb]

3. Sounds like sound analysis.

They have more than one iron in the fire.
Trade ($)
and
Keeping the populace under their thumb

[Alexander Of Assyria]

31. America is already under 🇨🇳 thumb, and happy to be so ...ever go to a Walmart? 🇺🇸

China is an ally, wants to be an ally…all his hostility over Taiwan?

How many Americans even know where Taiwan is, or care??

The Pentagon and the same Media thst brought you the Big Lie Iraq war are thirsting for another foil as Russia proves inept.

Isn’t it obvious!??

[MarineCombatEngineer]

36. What I think is obvious is your continued

refusal to recognize that China is attempting to control one of the world's most heavily traveled sea routes for goods with ridiculous claims of sovereignty over the S. China Sea and their continued threats and provocation of military action against Taiwan.

It's seems you think that the problem lies with the US, not China.

Just my opinion.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

38. Massive shipping yes, lot to America! No evidence massive shipping interfered with?

Facts are needed before the logic is applied, is always my rule.

Geography needs to be looked at also in the topic of the South China Seas, theres a hint there! Not the South America Sea! And no Chinese military might on display except near their own shores.

Only The Wild White West cruises the seas of the World, colonial thinking dies hard.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

42. Thank you,

you just confirmed my opinion.

Have a great weekend.

[EX500rider]

50. Just because it's called the Gulf of Mexico doesn't mean Mexico owns it

Same with the South China Sea.
China is trying to seize the economic assets within it a thousand miles from their shore all the way to the coast of the Philippines.
Very major imperialistic grab.

[ShazzieB]

98. And India doesn't own the Indian Ocean! 😉

Anyone who doesn't take the South China Sea situation seriously is not paying attention, imo.

[LudwigPastorius]

75. LOL

China shouldn't have signed UNCLOS if it wants to own the international waters of the South China Sea.

[CrabbyAppleton]

81. Missed this post...

And no Chinese military might on display except near their own shores.

The Spratly's are near their own shores? Get the fuck out.

Take a wild guess what's really in that area that China wants, please?

Look at the geography of the Spratly Islands and tell me the facts, apply the logic and clarify for me why an area 900 kilometers from the nearest Chinese shore should have a major Chinese military buildup.

Crabby

[Alexander Of Assyria]

84. What areas, many areas, require a major military buildup and permanent presence 10k kilometres away?

USA!

[EX500rider]

91. Except the US bases are in foreign countries with their permission.

China on the other hand dredges in reefs far from China, installs a base and calls it Chinese territory.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

103. China always does things better.

[EX500rider]

108. If you think dredging Islands out of fragile reefs far from their shores

To create imaginary Chinese territory is doing things better well that's your opinion

[CrabbyAppleton]

116. Another

evidence and fact free assertion from our friend Alex of Ass. the smoke blower.

Crabby

[CrabbyAppleton]

113. Alex of Ass. is blowing smoke

No response to the post that refutes your fact and logic free assertion that no Chinese military might is on display except near their own shores.

There is plenty of evidence that China has constructed Navy and Army facilities in the Paracels and the Spratlys and used them to harass both ships and aircraft from multiple nations in the South China Sea. China's actions there are about grabbing hotly disputed (by many nations) territory for the many resources that are there for the taking. The simple fact of the matter is that the South China Sea is International Water (and Air) which any nation may transit and loiter in, at will.

The US Navy will operate freely in all international waters and airspace as they see fit, despite all the bluff and bluster from blowhards like you.

I can assure you also, that your weak attempts to excuse China's actions with claims of US Imperialism are just so much tu quoque fallacy. My knowledge of US history is better than yours by a long shot and and I am very aware of US misdeeds as well as the many good deeds we have accomplished.

I am here at DU because I am an American, a Native American and a US Navy Veteran who is proud of what we as a nation have accomplished and aware of things that can be bettered.

Until you can bring some actual facts and logic to your arguments, you aren't worth responding to. My 21 year old Grandson has a better grasp of facts, logic and critical thing than you do.

Crabby

[MarineCombatEngineer]

130. +100.

I think it's pretty obvious where their sympathies lie when it comes to the subject of China.

[CrabbyAppleton]

132. It is.

It's pretty funny too how they scurried away so quickly when presented with actual facts.

I was so looking forward to discussing how charitable China is with their Belt and Road Initiatives and how free of Imperialistic intentions they are.

Oh well,

Crabby

[ShazzieB]

97. WOW.

No further comment.

[EX500rider]

109. There are some posters at this site who'll take the opposite side of the US

No matter how far fetched or crazy

[soryang]

82. Your posts on this issue are basically all correct

Defacto, the US has repudiated the three joint communiques with China. With respect to Taiwan it is unwisely meddling in internal politics. Combined with US enforced "decoupling" objectives, the object is to reduce Taiwan to a colonial satellite of a US-Japanese empire in the Far East. The whole idea of the Indo-Pacific strategy originated with Abe inspired reactionaries who want to "make Japan great again." This is why Abe and Trump got along famously.

The notion that China is opposed to freedom of navigation is absurd. As a nation they are most dependent on it. It isn't China that has hundreds of overseas military bases. Nor has China surrounded the US with military bases.

The US faux issue of freedom of navigation, is a wedge used to insert itself into disputed South China Sea maritime EEZ claims and justify its expanded military deployments in the far east. It's the unwise US adoption of gunboat diplomacy politics rather than any genuine dispute over freedom of navigation.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

83. Yes. Its not hard to drill down to the truth if the American war media blinders are lifted.

[EX500rider]

92. China is the one trying to steal territory far from their shores, not the US

US bases are in foreign countries with their permission.

China on the other hand claims everything inside this red line is theirs, even though it is far from China and right off other countries coast.

[ShazzieB]

99. Thanks for this map.

It's very informative. Much easier to visualize what's going on with this in front of me.

[CrabbyAppleton]

117. Indeed,

despite the protestations that China would never interfere with free navigation in the disputed areas depicted on this map, China is doing exactly that so they can assert their control of the territory.

None of the countries involved by themselves would be able to stand up to Chinese aggression in the region, but by uniting themselves with the US they are able to counter China's claims.

This chafes Chinese asses. China knows they are incapable of countering the US Navy, hence the arguments that the US is doing the same imperialist bullshit worlwide.

Then there's the CCP whining about US nuclear threats which is hilarious considering the constant threats tossed around by China's erstwhile allies Russia and N. Korea.

Facts, logic and critical thinking don't seem to be the strong suits of those arguing China's position in the SCS OR Taiwan.

Crabby

[CrabbyAppleton]

114. [b]Your posts on this issue are basically all correct[/b]

Yeah, no.

Alex of Ass. is pretty much incorrect and fact free with everything he has asserted in his previous posts in this thread and it's no surprise you are continuing the argument in the same style as Woodswalker and Alex.

Indo-Pacific strategy did not originate with Abe as you assert and your attempt to deflect the conversation to one about Trump/Abe is mildly amusing.

The idea that China is opposed to free navigation in the South China Sea is not absurd as has been pointed out by many posters in this thread so far.

China opposes free navigation in that area to support their territorial clams to that area despite treaties they have previously signed. The South China Sea is International Waters and Airspace. Many nations in the area have problems with China's territorial claims there including but not limited to Vietnam, Phillipines, Brunei, Malaysia and Indonesia. All those nations have had problems with China's aggressive policies in the region.

It's telling that you want to couple the issues of Taiwanese sovereignty with the aggressive territorial claims in the South China Sea and then again use the Tu Quoque fallacy to justify your claims.

Freedom of Navigation is the bee in China's bonnet because the US Navy presence in the area prevents them from being as aggressive as they wish to be otherwise.

Crabby

[MarineCombatEngineer]

131. Wow, just wow.

The utter nonsense in your post is breathtaking.

[EX500rider]

134. "respect to Taiwan it is unwisely meddling in internal politics. "

According to China you mean, to the rest of the world Taiwan is a independent country and a thriving democracy unlike mainland China.

[mpcamb]

4. Sounds like sound analysis.

They have more than one iron in the fire.
Trade ($)
and
Keeping the populace under their thumb

[Alexander Of Assyria]

41. Stop the cargo ships! That will teach China! Walmart can handle it!

Teach them what though?

[EX500rider]

52. Teach them not to start a war with the largest economy on the planet?

[Alexander Of Assyria]

66. The lesson will be learned by a crashing western economy, for sure!

[EX500rider]

71. China needs to sell their stuff more then we need to buy it. nt

[ShazzieB]

100. Absolutely.

[Shellback Squid]

6. The Nimitz, that carrier is ancient

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nimitz

USS Nimitz (CVN-68) is an aircraft carrier of the United States Navy, and the lead ship of her class. One of the largest warships in the world, she was laid down, launched, and commissioned as CVAN-68, "aircraft carrier, attack, nuclear powered", but she was later redesignated as CVN-68, "aircraft carrier, multi-mission, nuclear-powered", on 30 June 1975, as part of a fleet-wide realignment that year.

[ancianita]

18. BUT. Given our other 245 similar ships, newer and more powerful, you could probably surmise that

we really don't show our hand (over 490 ships, with 90 being rolled out) as a naval power until we really need to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_ships_of_the_United_States_Navy

[XorXor]

94. I believe there are plans to retire her in the near future.

Replacing the older Nimitz class and the Ford classes come online.

[EX500rider]

123. Old or not she still carries 90 fixed wing aircraft and helicopters. nt

[Warpy]

7. The CHIPS Act has done more than all the military muscle flexing in the world

because it's removing what Xi wanted most of all, the world's biggest manufacturer of ultra high tech electronic chips. While this doesn't sound like much to people who don't know what's going on, Taiwan had a near monopoly on chips that went into everything from i phones to military fighter jets and precision missiles across the planet.

The Republicans spent years with their thumbs up their butts. The Democrats passed the act, making sweet deals for relocating much of Taiwan's capacity here in the US while shoving low cost loans at US chip makers like Intel to modernize their own equipment. In fact, I saw cranes set up at the local Intel plant and since Intel wasn't expanding, I surmised they were there to lift the machinery into place.

Taiwan isn't under such intense threat now because of this. Xi would no longer have even a short term monopoly--the machinery being made in The Netherlands using components manufactured in the US and other places. That plus the mess Putin has faced in Ukraine have put a severe damper on his ambition. Saner heads might even convince him to adopt a long term strategy to attract Taiwan into the fold rather than trying to conquer them into it out of greed. Good luck to them, Xi's ridiculously heavy handed tactics in Hong Kong have made that a really tall order.

[grantcart]

64. Agree with everything else except Hong Kong

China was largely hands off of Hong Kong until the demonstrations evolved from autonomy demands to independence. The US media continued to call the demonstrators democracy activists long after they had escalated to pushing for independence.

China will extinguish any independence movement so as to not open that Pandora's box.

[Warpy]

74. According to someone who was there

and posted on another site, what provoked all the demos was quickly creeping fascism, directive after directive being posted and none of which were good news to anyone. It was more a home rule movement, a pro democracy movement, not an independence movement and that's what Xi and his henchmen objected to, that "d" word. Creeping fascism became galloping fascism and most of the people I knew there have decamped.

[Red Mountain]

11. War with China would be horrendous

even a short one.

That's just our military losses.

You think covid hit supply chains hard? LOL.

I'm not sure (and I don't mean to disparage them even mildly) how the Taiwanese population would react to an invasion. We can't even BEGIN to defend the nation if they aren't completely committed to their own defense.

Anybody?

[ancianita]

16. Okay, I'll go for it. The US Navy commands the oceans -- 75% of Earth.

China's sea power doesn't even come close. Our Navy has over 300,000 active duty personnel, and 100,000 on reserve. The US Navy is our widest military presence on Earth.

U.S. Navy training manuals state that the mission of the U.S. Armed Forces is "to be prepared to conduct prompt and sustained combat operations in support of the national interest."

The Navy's five enduring functions are: sea control, power projection, deterrence, maritime security, and sealift.

There are nine components in the operating forces of the U.S. Navy:
the United States Fleet Forces Command (formerly United States Atlantic Fleet),
United States Pacific Fleet,
United States Naval Forces Central Command,
United States Naval Forces Europe,
Naval Network Warfare Command,
Navy Reserve,
United States Naval Special Warfare Command,
Operational Test and Evaluation Force, and
Military Sealift Command.

Fleet Forces Command controls a number of unique capabilities, including Military Sealift Command, Naval Expeditionary Combat Command, and Navy Cyber Forces.

The US Marine Corps is under the US Navy. The Navy and Marine Corps form the Department of the Navy and report to the Secretary of the Navy.

The United States Navy has seven active numbered fleets – Second, Third, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Tenth Fleets are each led by a vice admiral, and the Fourth Fleet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy

One-third of the world's maritime shipping passes through the South China Sea, carrying over US$3 trillion in trade each year.[1] Huge oil and natural gas reserves are believed to lie beneath its seabed.[2] It also contains lucrative fisheries, which are crucial for the food security of millions in Southeast Asia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_Sea

Keeping all oceanic and straits' shipping lanes open is part of the Navy's mission.
China knows that a war with the US would be a suicide mission.

[Aristus]

20. One often forgotten fact:

The U.S. Air Force is the largest military air service in the world.

The U.S. Navy is the second largest.

[ancianita]

21. Cool. Another. Both cover Earth's air and water.

Guess we've got it covered. And the rest of the world, including China, knows it.


United States Air Force -------- 5,217
United States Army Aviation -- 4,409
United States Navy Air Force -- 2,464


https://www.operationmilitarykids.org/navy-vs-air-force/

[Kaleva]

54. The US Navy has its own army . The Marines

[MarineCombatEngineer]

57. Ooh Rah!!!

And the Marines have their own air power.

[Kaleva]

58. Yes!

[ShazzieB]

101. Semper Fi!

[Woodswalker]

26. In a modern all out war

with another superpower navy ships will be sitting ducks to missile strikes. Carrier as mighty as they might be would be picked off. Like I said, there's no winning a war with china

[CrabbyAppleton]

27. Pray tell what Intel you're privy to...

Pray tell what Intel you're privy to that suggests China is ready for modern, all out war?

Carrier as mighty as they might be would be picked off. (sic)

Say again? I didn't copy your word salad.

Like I said, there's no winning a war with china

Say again? I didn't copy. In the meantime, we will be operating in the South China Sea as usual. End Commo.

Crabby

[Alexander Of Assyria]

33. Well said. America operates its trillion dollar a year military everywhere, because it can.

And must, or no trillion a year! Obviously,

[CrabbyAppleton]

78. The Navy...

The US Navy operates in the South China Sea because it's International water, not because of your mistaken impression it must do so. Obviously.

We did the same thing in the Med. with Quaddafi, remember? Ships from ALL nations are allowed to transit international waters. Our allies and other nations are glad we assert our and their rights to do so.

Do try to keep up with the conversation, eh Alex? Thanks.

Crabby

[ShazzieB]

104. LOL!

I am learning so much from you and other knowledgeable people in this thread! Military stuff is not a strength of mine, and I enjoy the opportunity to improve my knowledge.

Carry on!

[CrabbyAppleton]

115. Thank you

If you have any question feel free to ask. I have limited time to post here but some people need an education.

Crabby

[MarineCombatEngineer]

39. How do you know what the Order of Battles for the US Navy would be?

Are you now or have you ever been, one of the planners of Naval combat tactics?

What makes you think that the Navy hasn't already prepared for this?

Do you have any idea of how well protected a Carrier Battle Group is?

[Alexander Of Assyria]

44. Nukes! Its protected.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

45. I think you know that I'm talking about a conventional war,

nobody wins a nuke war, nobody.

[ancianita]

46. We're powerful for reasons the US military doesn't tell. So let me make a bet with you and

Alexander:

the nukes war is one we'll win.

Why? Because THE difference is in ANTI-missile capability. Sure, we'll maybe take a hit. BUT just one.

WE command more nuclear subs,
more nuclear missile range, and
Air Force nuclear bomb delivery,
more satellite weapons detection and projection than China and beyond.

I'll put it Rajun' Cajun Carville style: "It's the delivery system, stupid."

[MarineCombatEngineer]

47. You make some very valid and compelling points,

something to think about while I sit in this truck stop for the weekend.

[ancianita]

48. Didn't think you'd take that bet. Have a great weekend, MCE.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

67. How many nuclear warhead do the Chinese have...aimed at America?

How many cities destroyed would be a …win?

And they got a space platform…peaceful ofc.

Anti missile is ok if fails against a conventional thing, but a failure against a nuke…??

Sarcasm maybe?

[ancianita]

69. Less than the US at China.

There would be no Chinese win, and probably a US win.

No sarcasm.

[EX500rider]

77. China would know better then to target US cities with their very small ICBM force

As it would invite the US to glass over ALL their cities.

They would stick to purely military targets if they were crazy enough to use nukes on a country with 4,000+ of them.

[CrabbyAppleton]

79. Meh, ...

You're starting to sound like Windwalker now, critical thinking turned off?

Crabby

[CrabbyAppleton]

80. I disagree...

If war progresses to the use of Nukes, there won't be a winner, period. There will only be a hemisphere which is less damaged than the other, and it won't be our hemisphere.

Crabby

[ancianita]

119. It's still all about the Carville variation about delivery -- deterrence of that "progression."

To that end, & toward pre-emptive US decision making about all military things Chinese, let's take into account the Joint All-Domain Command and Control, which has recently run two tests of its world wide anti-missile pre-emptive defense coordination, among other things.

Joint All-Domain Command and Control or JADC2 is the concept that the Department of Defense has developed to connect sensors from all branches of the armed forces into a § unified network powered by artificial intelligence.[1] [2] These branches include the Air Force, Army, Marine Corps, and Navy, as well as Space Force.

Each military branch has its initiative that contributes to JADC2; the Army has Project Convergence,[3] the Navy has Project Overmatch,[4] and the Air Force has the Advanced Battle Management System,[5][6][7] also known as ABMS.[8] The Space Force has the Space Development Agency's National Defense Space Architecture (NDSA).[9][10][11]

The DoD has held at least two critical JADC2 exercises. The first one, which took place in Florida in December 2019, centered on a simulated threat posed by cruise missiles. This was the very first demonstration of ABMS, which took place during the exercise. Air Force and Navy aircraft (including F-22 and F-35 fighter jets), a Navy destroyer, an Army Sentinel radar system, a mobile artillery system, as well as commercial space and ground sensors demonstrated their ability to collect, analyze, and share data in real-time to provide a more comprehensive picture of the operating environment.[12] For more information, see JADC2 at the Army's Project Convergence experiments

In July 2020, the Department of Defense carried out a second test of the JADC2 system. In the course of this exercise, planes from the Air Force communicated with naval vessels that were stationed in the Black Sea. Additionally, special operations personnel from eight other NATO nations and a simulated environment collaborated to deter a possible attack from Russia.[12]

In November 2022 ABMS experiments showed how JADC2 is really § combined arms. —Brig. Gen. Jeffery Valenzia (USAF CFT lead for JADC2) [13]

In early December 2022 JWCC -- Joint Warfighting Cloud Capability -- was awarded to Google, Amazon, Microsoft, and Oracle.

Because of this and other facts laid out -- in an attempted nuclear war -- I'm still betting on a US win.

Our best minds of the cyberworld are working with the DoD for a reason -- they, America and the world would have a lot to lose through nuclear war.

[CrabbyAppleton]

127. With all due respect...

I have many years experience in the US Navy as a Digital Systems Tech and am a plank owner on the USS Carl Vinson. I've crossed the equator twice in less than 3 weeks and crossed the Arctic Circle too. I've climbed radar masts in foul weather and ridden a bosuns chair to haul electronics parts to an allies boomer in the north sea. I was there when an F/A-18 made the first arrested landing on a carrier. It was placed on a barge and returned to Jax afterwards. (I found out recently that a close friend from high school who introduced me to my wife was aboard at the time, as a civilian tech rep. Talk about a small got dang world.)

After leaving the Navy I worked as a contractor for a Beltway Bandit and the US Navy, continuing to develop Telecommunications and Tactical Data Systems. I've taught college level classes to some of the most motivated students you could ever hope to share a classroom with. I've seen systems work as planned and I've seen them fail miserably. A fuse pops, a chain link fails, a person who was a little too hung over mismeasures the propellant charge in a torpedo or missile, things have a way of going horrendously wrong. When dealing with nukes, not atomic bombs, it only takes a few getting through to ruin the lives of a whole lot of survivors for a long damn time.

I, personally, don't bet on anything but a sure thing. War is never a sure thing. MAD was something we used to think was a reasonable way to avoid nuclear war but there are too damn many crazies out there now.

The odds are very high, in my humble opinion, that we would stomp the bejeezus out of China or Russia in an all out conventional war. Throw nukes in the mix and I just don't see any winners.

That's part of the reason I am

Crabby

[ancianita]

128. All due respect returned ...

I realize "War is never a sure thing...but there are too damn many crazies out there now."

Conventional or nuclear, that's why it's called a bet.

Perhaps too much Beltway Bandit contracting -- I'd suppose employing millions (without looking it up) -- allows too much access to classified information, and its disappearance, and maybe after that, crazies.
I haven't worked in the armed forces, like you; I was only an officer's wife during Vietnam at Fort Gordon and Fort Sill, and had exposure to both officer and non-com levels, got read into other things military, as well.

Which is to say... Nice to meet you, Crabby, and thank you for your amazing government service.

My name, ancianita, reflects me, too.

[CrabbyAppleton]

129. Well, when I spoke of crazies,

I had Putin, Trump, Lil' Rocket Man Kim and Xi more in mind. People who cannot be counted on to act in a rational manner.

You may not have worked in the DoD, but as the spouse of someone who did, you "served". Thank you. My wife "served" too.

I will not hazard a guess about your name, but I think I get it, clever.

It was nice to meet you too.

Crabby

[ShazzieB]

106. Wow!

That is stunning! I mean that most sincerely, that picture takes my breath away!

[EX500rider]

51. Assuming our ships come in range.

Or we stay out of range, send in a attack subs to close down all their shipping, plant mines off all the ports, basically closed down their economy.
How long you think the Chinese government would last with all the factories shut down and people out of work and their economy ground to a stop?

[CrabbyAppleton]

118. China's sea power doesn't even come close

Yep.

Keeping all oceanic and straits' shipping lanes open is part of the Navy's mission.

Yep. That's the part Chinese apologists are whining about with their attempts to secure their claims to the SCS.

Crabby

[Woodswalker]

15. China could walk

thru Taiwan tomorrow and there wouldn't be much of anything we could do. The idea of sending troops into Taiwan to defend against a Chinese invasion is scary and that's a war we couldn't win. Like I said the only reason China has not yet done it so far is it would cause an enormous financial catastrophy for the US and China.

[CrabbyAppleton]

35. What?

You know why China hasn't done it so far? Who do you work for?

Crabby

[Swede]

86. Taiwan has said in would retaliate by blowing up the Three Gorges dam, killing tens of millions

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/kills-tens-of-millions-taiwans-chilling-message-for-china/news-story/820c97614a7452299f068fac99d71eb6

[EX500rider]

124. "China could walk thru Taiwan tomorrow" I doubt it

Taiwan was and is a nightmare for anyone staging an amphibious operation. The island is only 394 kilometers long and 144 kilometers wide at its widest point. The terrain is rugged with 258 mountains over 3,000 meters (10,000 feet) high. Many key highways are built in the many valleys and that creates a lot of narrow choke points that can be easily defended, often with the help of tunnels dug into nearby hills and mountains. This makes it very difficult for an invading force to get off the beach.

Taiwan has few (about a dozen) useful invasion beaches and lots of high ground behind those beaches. Since World War II the population quadrupled to 24 million. Most live in built up urban areas and this is a nightmare for any invader because all those structures favor the defender. Taiwan has built several air and naval bases that make use of tunnels built into nearby mountains. Many urban areas have built tunnels to protect the population during major storms, and soldiers during an attempt to invade and conquer the island. Taiwan is also surrounded by about a hundred small islands, most of them uninhabited but large enough to support some troops armed with artillery and anti-ship missiles.

Currently, Taiwan can confront any invasion with nearly half a million troops. While the active-duty force is only 190,000, Taiwan has two million men with military experience in the reserves and 10-15 ten percent of these are kept at a higher state of readiness to quickly join the active-duty forces in the event of an invasion. Most of the men in the reserves are former conscripts who serve four months of active duty when they turn 18 and then continue serving in the reserves until they are 36. As the Chinese invasion threat increased over the last two decades, reserve duty has been regarded as more essential to the survival and an independent and more prosperous (than China) Taiwanese democracy. This means that more reservists are willing to continue serving after 36 and this increases the number of experienced men in the reserves. Taiwanese see themselves as an island version of Switzerland, Israel or Sweden, all of them dependent on a large, well trained, reserve force to deal with any invasion. These three Western nations have used this mobilization system very successfully, for centuries in the case of Switzerland. China noted how rapidly mobilized Ukrainian forces defeated a 2022 Russian invasion. Ukraine is largely flat terrain with some rivers to provide defensive barriers. But nothing beats an island with few invasion beaches and lots of mountains defended by a well-armed and determined population.


https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htamph/20220930.aspx

[yaesu]

24. And we still do business with that fascist country. Nt

[Alexander Of Assyria]

32. Wrong application of definition of fascism. Its not business by now, its dependency. By America.

Voluntarily. By business.

[EX500rider]

53. Yes more of a so-called communist capitalist dictatorship is what China is

With a very orwellian control of media and populous.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

63. Yes, a mixture. Orwellian yes, America ranks first in the West in Orwellian.

[EX500rider]

70. Not really, the UK has much more video surveillance of the their citizens then the US

[EX500rider]

125. And really they fit that word fairly well

fascism
a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

[machoneman]

40. China is in poor shape right now except saber-rattling. The media has well covered a host of issues

they are suffering through like negative GDP, the collapse of the housing market and excess manufacturing (COVID, overbuilding, etc.).
Doesn't mean they won't keep rattling our cage but.....

[Alexander Of Assyria]

43. Media versus media rattling, fair comment! Its what they do, we dont have to.

[ancianita]

56. Maybe. But there's another scary military opinion now floated out there.

Which is probably part of the reason the military brought this show of force to Beijing's backyard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/01/27/us-general-minihan-china-war-2025/

U.S. general warns troops that war with China is possible in two years

“I hope I am wrong,” Minihan wrote. “My gut tells me we will fight in 2025. Xi secured his third term and set his war council in October 2022. Taiwan’s presidential elections are in 2024 and will offer Xi a reason. United States’ presidential elections are in 2024 and will offer Xi a distracted America. Xi’s team, reason, and opportunity are all aligned for 2025.”

[Martin68]

61. The South China Sea isn't "China's backyard." That's the way China thinks about it. But most

of it is the backyard of Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines. That's why China is creating and militarizing artificial islands off the shores of each of those nations.

[LudwigPastorius]

76. Yeah, China is kind of like Trump.

Last edited Sat Jan 28, 2023, 10:53 PM - Edit history (1)

It can alter reality, and annex the South China Sea, just by 'thinking about it'!

[Alexander Of Assyria]

85. Chinas annexing a Sea? That would be huge news, never been done before!

[LudwigPastorius]

89. de facto, champ.

Last edited Sun Jan 29, 2023, 01:10 PM - Edit history (1)

In reality, though, by signing off on the United Nations Convention on the Laws of the Sea, China has already legally recognized most of the the South China Sea as international waters.

[EX500rider]

93. They are certainly trying to

[Alexander Of Assyria]

102. So is Brunei, on the evidence of that map!?? Not uncommon on law of the seas.

[EX500rider]

110. No Brunei is sticking with the standard mileage off of their Coast as their eez

China on the other hand is not.

[apnu]

88. Hilarious China is pissed about US demonstrations

China flew sorties over Singapore, but are making up outrage of the US doing the same?

Global politics really is kabuki theater. Who is actually fooled by all this?

[Alexander Of Assyria]

105. Singapore didn't give a crap...so truth please!

SINGAPORE - A group of People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) aircraft that flew into Singapore's Flight Information Region (FIR) in May was not deemed to have posed an aerial threat to Singapore, said Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen.

The Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore (CAAS) - the appointed authority to manage Singapore's FIR - did not receive any flight plans from the PLAAF, nor did CAAS communicate with it nor any of its aircraft, he said in Parliament on Tuesday (July 6).

However, state aircraft, which includes military aircraft, are not required to do so, as long as they fly with regard for the safety of other aircraft, he said.


https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/chinese-aircraft-that-flew-into-singapores-flight-info-region-in-may-did-not-pose