WSJ News Exclusive: Green Hydrogen Gets a Boost in the U.S. With $4 Billion Plant

[mahatmakanejeeves]

Last edited Fri Dec 9, 2022, 01:52 PM - Edit history (1)

The site of a retired coal plant will house the U.S.’s biggest green-hydrogen plant, with plans to start operations in 2027

wsj.com
WSJ News Exclusive | Green Hydrogen Gets a Boost in the U.S. With $4 Billion Plant
The planned factory by Air Products and AES will be the biggest facility powered by wind and solar in the U.S.

Link to tweet

[NNadir]

1. Sigh...

[CentralMass]

2. From the article - some comments on poor economics of hydrogen production.

"Even hydrogen made in the cheapest and dirtiest ways costs a little more than $1 a kilogram, according to estimates from a February Goldman Sachs report—around double the price of natural gas in the U.S. Making it a cleaner way, by removing and storing some of the carbon dioxide emitted, adds significantly to the cost. Producing green hydrogen with renewables could cost as much as $5 a kilogram, estimated Anne-Sophie Corbeau, a global research scholar at Columbia University’s School of International and Public Affairs.

When other costs such as storage and transportation are included, hydrogen becomes too expensive to sub in for many fossil-fuel uses, Ms. Corbeau said."

[Caribbeans]

3. Goldman Sachs: Hydrogen generation could become a $1 trillion per year market

Hydrogen generation could become a $1 trillion per year market, Goldman Sachs says

CNBC | 2-23-22-- Hydrogen has an important role to play in any transition to net-zero and its generation could develop into a market worth over $1 trillion a year, according to Goldman Sachs

"If we want to go to net-zero we can't do it just through renewable power," Michele DellaVigna, the bank's commodity equity business unit leader for the EMEA region, told CNBC's "Squawk Box Europe" earlier this week.

"We need something that takes today's role of natural gas, especially to manage seasonality and intermittency, and that is hydrogen."

Hydrogen has a diverse range of applications and can be deployed in a wide range of industries.

"It's a very powerful molecule," DellaVigna said. "We can use it for heavy transport, we can use it for heating, and we can use it for heavy industry." more
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/23/hydrogen-generation-could-become-1-trillion-market-goldman-sachs.html

While Americans bicker about whether hydrogen can help with de-carbonizing the world- or not-

China is repeating their solar success

And Americans can watch them take over yet another future tech. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so GD sad. And when it becomes apparent to those who haven't been paying attention, China will be accused of "stealing" H2 tech, just as sure as the sunrise tomorrow.

Guangzhou Sets Out Plan for USD 1.4 Billion Fuel Cell Vehicle Industry by 2025.

(Yicai Global) Dec. 7 -- Guangzhou has unveiled a three-year plan to make the southern Chinese city a leading domestic hub for the production and use of hydrogen-powered vehicles.

The capital of Guangdong province aims to have a fuel cell vehicle industry worth CNY10 billion (USD1.4 billion) by 2025, according to the plan the local government released yesterday. Guangzhou should also have no fewer than 2,500 FCVs in use by 2025, per the plan.

The city aims to establish itself as a leading domestic development and manufacturing hub for FCVs, covering the whole industry chain from core parts to vehicle assembly. At least five local firms should have entered the top five nationally in their respective hydrogen-related fields by then.

Regarding infrastructure, the plan shows the city is looking to have a stable supply capacity of 40,000 metric tons of hydrogen before 2026, with three-quarters of that produced locally. Guangzhou also aims to build a wide network of 50 hydrogen refueling stations by 2025...more
https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/guangzhou-sets-out-plan-for-usd14-billion-fuel-cell-vehicle-industry-by-2025

MOST IMPORTANTLY: Hydrogen is the END of the despicable Nixon-Kissinger PETRODOLLAR

[NNadir]

4. Which would be a worse disaster than even coal or petroleum...

Happily, decades of these bullshit predictions have gone nowhere.

[CentralMass]

5. Electric heat pumps are 5x more efficient at heating than using hydrogen.

Last edited Sat Dec 10, 2022, 05:20 AM - Edit history (1)

So I would call that application an outright waste of energy and $$. There is a reason that hydrogen FCV's have not taken off. They are not economically viable compared to fossil fuel powered vehicle or battery EV's. Battery EV's are 2X to 4x more efficient at using electicty then FCV or hydrogen powered ice vehicles using green hydrogen. Unless green electrical production becomes so abundent and cheap that we can ignore those efficiency deltas we are going to be pissing away money and wasting energy going tlhe hydrogen route.. It may be viable for long haul transportation and industrial use.

Goldman Sach and big oil making money on it is a separate issue. Big oil will undoubtedly be willing to produce and sell as much Grey hydrigen by converting fossil fuels as they can sell.

[Caribbeans]

10. Heat pumps are expensive - not everyone can fork out $10k+ to retrofit

also many of them don't work so well in very cold environments. But hey lots of people want to mandate them! Who cares anymore about the poor.

There is a reason that hydrogen FCV's have not taken off

Of course they "have not taken off" - the only places to fuel them right now IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY are around LA and the CA Bay Area.

Do you think Toyota expected to sell millions without any infrastructure? In fact to buy or lease one you have to prove you live near a station.

TOYOTA is focused on the future - like 50 years ahead while most North Americans see the future as "Next Quarter" - which has literally ruined the nation.

Toyota's fuel cell stack can be put in anything that moves - like a moon buggy



or a boat



or a truck



When most truck stops sell hydrogen - and they will because today's batteries aren't fit to power 80,000 lb trucks- that will be the day hydrogen cars start to sell in any numbers. And that day is coming soon.

EV's are 2X to 4x more efficient at using electicty then FCV or hydrogen powered ice vehicles using green hydrogen

So called "efficiency" isn't everything. If it was, literally EVERYONE would buy the car that gets the most mileage. People pay more every single day for convenience OVER "Efficiency" - like me for example, would pay more to not stop for 45 minutes every time more range is needed. The best solar panels today are at around 22% efficiency but that hasn't stopped many solar advocates from investing.

You've managed to cite battery advocates regular replies to hydrogen fuel cells. The latest war against hydrogen "fool cells" started with Elon Musk circa 2013- Now that he's exposed himself as literally a fool and a charlatan more people are going to realize he was lying about hydrogen to sell more of his battery powered pieces of junk that will require another $12-20,000 battery one day. Tesla decided against HFCV's before China dropped the prices of solar panels and wind turbines so again, who's the fool now?

Hopefully rational people can understand that to put the entire future of the energy transition on batteries - and only batteries - is extremely foolish and risky. Also recycling of Li-Ion batteries is not cost effective in 2022 - and every single battery made today will die one day (maybe 10 years, maybe 12) but it will die and need replacement. Before anyone yanks out their used up car battery and hooks it up to their house they might want to call their home insurance company because of the fire hazard.

Future mobility will be powered by batteries AND hydrogen AND other things that haven't been invented yet. The world will need all the help it can get and those insisting that batteries are the only way are a hindrance to the energy transition. Also many battery "advocates" are fully invested in battery companies, all while trying to paint hydrogen advocates as "shills".

Hydrogen fuel cells are a huge part of the future - not just on earth but in space and other star systems - because hydrogen is ~75% of the entire known universe - and of all the battery electric car companies - Toyota is the ONLY ONE that is a part of that future.

[CentralMass]

11. Some links.

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/heating-homes-with-hydrogen-is-neither-cheap-nor-environmentally-friendly/4016321.article

"Heating homes with hydrogen is neither cheap nor environmentally friendly"


Regarding hydrogen powered cars.

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydrogen-or-battery--that-is-the-question.html
"
Hydrogen or battery? A clear case, until further notice"

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a41103863/hydrogen-cars-fcev/

"To date, about 2.5 million EVs have been sold in the U.S. By contrast, as of mid-2022, 15,000 or fewer hydrogen-powered vehicles can be found on U.S. roads. All of them will be in California, the sole state with a network of retail hydrogen fueling stations to make the cars usable.
Toyota, the company most devoted to hydrogen power as an alternative to battery-electric vehicles, has sold roughly 10,700 Mirai sedans across two generations in the U.S.—though in some periods it resorted to substantial discounting to move them.
Regarding hydrogen being "75% of the universe"
Hydrogen gas is not a fuel. It does not exist in any signifcant quantity on its own in nature. It is an energy carrier that requires energy to produce it. Either through reforming natural gas with steam, an environmentally dirty carbon producing process or by electrolysis of water requiring electricity through an inefficient process.. The current natural gas storage and pipelinr/transportation network cam not be used to store and transport pure hydrogen as it embrittles the steel. Replacing it will be very costly and times consuming.

[orthoclad]

7. These calculations ignore

the economy of scale once production ramps up.
Of course Goldman-Sachs wants to prolong their existing investments as long as possible.

In the 80s, I was reading analyses that solar power would be totally impractical in most of the US because we're too far north. I run my home economically entirely off solar now in the north.

Corporate analyses always ignore external costs, like the cost of emitting carbon, or the cost of dealing with wastes: from carbon, from mining, from waste. Insurance companies should be encouraged to invest some capital, to prevent future payouts.

Hydrogen waste is water snd heat.

[CentralMass]

12. How are you producing the hydrogen ?

99% of hydrogen produced as of today is so call blue hydrogen it is the cheapest (significantly so) way of producing it. Natural gas is reformed with high pressure steam to produce hydrogen and carbon by products. It is an environmentally dirty process.

You say you live in the north and solar economically provides your needs. Try seeing hiw much it costs you to convert to hydrogen. Buy an ekectrolyzer and a compressor and tanks and scale your solar so thst it has enough power to produce enough hydrogen to run your house and fuel your vehicle(s) at home and let us know how thst works out for you.

Economy of scale only buye you so much with green hydrogen. The bottom line is you have to put more energy in to produce it then yiu can get out when you use it. It is an energy carrier not a fuel.

[NickB79]

6. Lots of excess water in North Texas these days?

The nearest large city to this plant is Wichita Falls.

Currently struggling with extreme drought.

Guess they'll be draining some non-renewable aquifers to generate hydrogen.

https://www.timesrecordnews.com/story/news/local/2022/07/21/drought-worsens-in-wichita-county/65379210007/

[orthoclad]

8. They located for power,

wind and solar.

Lawns waste more water.

[NickB79]

9. Are we going to cut lawn watering then?

Or are we going to keep watering lawns AND pump millions of extra gallons of water for hydrogen?

My bet is on the latter. If we priced water for what it's TRULY worth, hydrogen would be even less economical than it already is.