Ever wonder how many religious leaders are really atheists?

[MineralMan]

I do. I had one Catholic Priest who was a second to the Bishop of Los Angeles admit to me that he wasn't really sure there was any such thing as God, but that the church did so much good in the world, that it was worthwhile to teach the existence of God. He was a bright fellow, and a serious theologian.

You just have to wonder sometimes whether the intelligent religious leaders really believe what they're selling. I think, in many cases, they do not. It's a tough thing to prove, though.

[Deep13]

1. All the time.

I believe the answer is "not that many, but more as one ascends the ecclesiastical hierarchy."

[MineralMan]

3. You could be right.

Getting any of them to admit it, though, would be a real challenge. They do have to protect their phony-baloney jobs, after all.

[cbayer]

10. Phony-baloney jobs? Really?

How easily you can blow off all the good things that religious leaders have done and continue to do.

[MineralMan]

11. And how easily they blow off all the harm done.

They're all human, after all. We all are, it seems.

[cbayer]

13. Who's blowing off the harm? Certainly not I.

[MineralMan]

15. Are you a religious leader? I'm talking about religious leaders

in this thread, not others. If you tell me you don't know of harm religious leaders have done, then I'll have to reconsider some things.

This thread asks a very specific question about a very specific group of people.

[Mariana]

20. If a religious leader doesn't believe what he or she is preaching

then he or she is a phony. That is true regardless of whether they do good things.

[cbayer]

21. True. And if the statement is aimed only at those (which he acknowledges are hard to

identify), then phony-baloney might be apt. But it reads as more broadly aimed to me.

[MineralMan]

23. It was aimed at those.

Indeed, their job is phony if they're not actual believers. So, it's naturally to their advantage not to disclose atheism. Occasionally, one does, though.

[MineralMan]

22. Well, of course.

That's what I'm wondering about. How many "phonies" are there in the ranks of religious leaders? It seems a worthwhile question, really.

[tama]

28. It's been studied

the higher up the power hierarchy, the less likely the high-ups are to believe and act according that their rules concern also themselves. Pope can protect and enable child molesters, POTUS can assassinate US citizens without trial, etc. etc.

Phony-baloney Ponzi-scheme jobs of "all power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

[arcane1]

2. I've always assumed their belief is inversely proportional to the amount of money they make n/t

[MineralMan]

4. Now, that makes sense.

Take Pat Robertson, for example. Or, on second thought, who would take him?

[spin]

5. I've often suspected that many of the very rich religious leaders ...

are mostly talk and little faith.

Fortunately judging others is far above my pay grade. I just tend to avoid sending money to televangelists. I simply try to help out poor or disadvantaged people that I know.

[rug]

6. About as often as I wonder how many atheists are really believers.

[Lint Head]

7. Having taken theology classes in college I can see how this belief is prevalent.

[frogmarch]

8. I've wondered.

Good story about the doubting priest.

Here's a clip from an episode of Father Ted showing a funny exchange between Father Ted and Father Dougal about religion. I miss that show.

[Kalidurga]

9. I was just thinking about this yesterday as a matter of fact.

The church I went to as a teenager actively promoted the idea that the world was not created n seven days. They said that the creation story was an allegory and days meant epochs. I wouldn't be shocked at all if I now found out that, the first I knew in that church was an atheist. I think his (much younger, not that that matters) successor was a true believer, he was determined to stomp out the humanistic lines of thinking in the church.

[cbayer]

12. Not really, but I do think that many religious leaders are soul searchers

and question things like their faith all the time.

That's a good thing, imo. There are many theologians and religious leaders who aren't "selling" anything, but go on with your broadbrush assumptions.

[MineralMan]

14. Broadbrush in what way?

I don't know the answer to my own question, actually. It's a question, not a statement, that I raised in the OP. Using reason, I assume that very intelligent people also use reason. For me, reason dictates that supernatural entities like deities are so unlikely as to be unbelievable. So, my question is a natural one, since I assume many religious leaders are intelligent people.

[longship]

16. Dan Barker is compiling a list

He's co-president of FFRF and is in contact with (apparently) quite a few pastors of many denominations who are atheists but don't dare say so publicly. Of course, Barker has no intention of outing them, but he claims that the situation is not unusual.

You go through seminary, study hard, get your degree(s) and suddenly realize that what you once believed is apparently untrue. Unfortunately you've already down a path where it's difficult to turn around.

Dan Barker himself is a former evangelical preacher and written a book about his and others' journeys Losing Faith In Faith

[MineralMan]

18. I'll check that out. Thanks.

The thought first occurred to me about the time I was 18. I was quickly moving toward atheism as I learned more, but had been a kid who was very involved with my local Presbyterian church, to the extent that the church offered me a free ride at Wheaton College.

As I got further along the path, I started seeking out religious leaders and having conversations with them. That Catholic Priest was a very interesting man, a Jesuit, who was quite willing to have a long conversation with a budding atheist. What he told me got me interested in the question I raised in this OP.

[montanto]

17. Yep, the more logical and rational among them

always make me wonder if they are telling the truth about their beliefs. Someone like Santorum I have no doubt about. Another thing, considering that the atheist I know (and I know quite a few, we seem to draw together that way) are more christian than the "christians" that I know, when I meet someone who is concerned about others, generous without asking for stuff in return, forgiving, tolerant, etc., I always wonder first whether they are atheists, not whether they are christians. And one more, the people who know the most about the bible? Atheists! I guess we are the only people who can read that book and see what it is talking about at the same time.

[MineralMan]

19. Most atheists I know have a good knowledge of the Bible as well,

along with other religious texts and of the differences between Christian denominations. I never lost my interest in religion, just my belief in the underlying theology of religion. Religion plays a big role in the societies of the world, so it's something that's interesting to study.

[eppur_se_muova]

24. Heh ... "The Bishop's Gambit" ...

http://www.yes-minister.com/ypmseas1b.htm#YPM 1.7

Sir Humphrey: "The Church is looking for a candidate to maintain the balance."
Master of Baillie College: "What balance?"
Sir Humphrey: "Between those that believe in God and those that don't."

Sir Humphrey: The Queen is inseparable from the Church of England."
Jim Hacker: "And what about God?"
Sir Humphrey: I think he is what is called an optional extra."

"An atheist clergyman could not continue to draw his stipend, so when they stop believing in God they call themselves 'modernists'."

"Theology is a device for helping agnostics to stay within the Church of England."

[Leontius]

25. Interesting question, I would think there are some who no longer believe

but would feel totaly lost without their 'position' of religious leader and live the lie that their "faith' has become. I don't think that doubt always leads one to atheism it may or it may lead to deeper inquiry and deeper faith in God.

[Thats my opinion]

26. I am not and never have been a religious leader. I have been too critical

of the church and traditional religious teachings ever to get there.

What I do know, with Paul in I Corinthians 13--that as we mature in faith, hope and love, we must "put away childish things."

If you want to call it all childish--save your effort.

What increasing numbers of us in the theological world are working for is a more mature understanding of reality--and that means of religion.

[CJCRANE]

27. Your OP just reminded me of a short story from 1930

that deals with the same issue...

San Manuel Bueno, Mártir

The novella tells the story of the local Catholic Priest (Don Manuel) in fictional Valverde de Lucerna, Spain as told through the eyes of Angela, one of the townspeople. Throughout the course of the story Manuel is adored by the people of the town. He is constantly in the service of the townspeople. He refrains from condemning anyone and goes out of his way to help those whom the people have marginalized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Manuel_Bueno,_M%C3%A1rtir