2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe corruption is so widespread, I have come to doubt the legitimacy of Hillary's delegate lead.
Why? Simply too many shenanigans in too many states. I know I'm not the only one who has arrived at this opinion.
Many of us will need quite an act of good faith on the part of the DNC to make this situation right. They need to seriously consider our concerns, and to conduct recounts in several different states, supervised by reliable representatives from both campaigns - maybe even UN observers.
If they do this - and soon - they may be able to patch together this party and get us Bernie supporters back on board in time for the general election.
StayFrosty
(237 posts)You begin to doubt the reality you're living in
Shandris
(3,447 posts)...both unfamiliar with reality (or it's aggregate, but hey, semantics neh) and too naive to be considered worth listening to for anything outside of vapid entertainment selections.
Not that there's anything wrong with being a walking Quote Repeater, I mean it takes all kinds to make the world go round.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)Shandris
(3,447 posts)Reiyuki
(96 posts)Anti-conspiracy theory: The theory that everything we are presented on the surface and in the news is true and without motive.
Anti-conspiracy theory: The theory that powerful, wealthy groups don't talk to each-other.
Anti-conspiracy theory: The theory that people in power don't manipulate the system to stay in power.
But just to be clear, it doesn't mean that every whackjob theory is accurate, it just means there have been plenty of conspiracy theories that turned out to be true, so we can't automatically rule these things out.
As far as elections though, even IF there were widespread election fraud, it likely wouldn't affect more than a few percent returns. It would be too obvious and suspicious to have an exit poll read 75% to 15% and the returns read 50%-50%. Besides, every state does things a little differently, uses different technologies, and has different levels of unethical insiders.
So I don't buy that the entire process was rigged just because it would be so large that it's impossible to conceal.
Arneoker
(375 posts)Especially for the vapid!
Time for change
(13,718 posts)So many people at this site use the words "conspiracy theory" to combat any argument that their candidate is guilty of misdeeds. They use those two words to characterize any statement that they don't like and is inconsistent with the version of events that our corporate "news" media tries to make us believe. I am so sick of it. They should apply for a job as a robot.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Indeed he was. One of the symptoms were the exit polls via Mitofsky. Funny shit, that ran in Excelsior, not the NYT. Then there is Florida. The recount that showed Gore won, came out on a Sep 11 morning, that Sep 11. This year it is obvious the pattern continues. Someday you might even get it...maybe this November. The difference is that I will not laugh at your concerns.
Chezboo
(230 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Him and a few others have done some of the work. I wish Conyers listened to them
To me this became a real issue in 2000
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)laserhaas
(7,805 posts)Enough...is Enough
With this disingenuous defense of bad faith deeds
By calling truth seekers...names
Rigged...Rigged..Rigged
From the beginning
It's A Fact
coyote
(1,561 posts)Simply is not not true.
There is an incredible amount of money and power at stake in this election. The oligarchy is not going to let some socialist senator from Vermont get in the way of their retaining power and continuing the status quo. Thinking otherwise is naive. People have died for a lot less for what's at stake.
jehop61
(1,735 posts)Just saying something doesn't make it true
tonyt53
(5,737 posts)Also, Bernie's supporters have never been on board in the first place. Most have never bothered to register to vote, even though they could have in the past. On top of that, most are registered as independents. Better lay of those conspiracy theories for a bit.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Do you have to try to miss the mark so badly?
Response to morningfog (Reply #7)
artislife This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to reformist2 (Original post)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
insta8er
(960 posts)to those who pay them. Yes I can see that most of us actually look at those things like speaking fees of 200k and think, wonder what they have to do for that?..or why would they pay them that? While others seem to be more occupied with things like...Calling her Madam President.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)I've spoken with each of them, precisely the same as you have those you claim to speak for.
Blue_Adept
(6,402 posts)The illegitimate win mantra will only grow. Hopefully that'll get nailed down hard as the forums shift to GE mode.
Ohioblue22
(1,430 posts)Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #6)
artislife This message was self-deleted by its author.
Ohioblue22
(1,430 posts)stonecutter357
(12,699 posts)Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #32)
artislife This message was self-deleted by its author.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Arneoker
(375 posts)(NOT)
Response to Arneoker (Reply #116)
artislife This message was self-deleted by its author.
MattP
(3,304 posts)Makes no sense
Response to MattP (Reply #79)
artislife This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)There's your corruption, not to mention whining at every loss, intimidation, threats, and such by Sanders's campaign.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)It helped them greatly in several caucuses
BeyondGeography
(39,395 posts)hopemountain
(3,919 posts)and now, they are needed here. disgraceful.
Karma13612
(4,555 posts)brush
(53,978 posts)after Sanders' wins?
All his wins are perfectly pure, just as Sanders is oh wait, that image is no more now that he's shown his bitter, sore loser side.
Anyway, Clinton supporters are not looking for conspiracies under every rock after every Sanders win.
You guys should try that, leads to less stress, fewer windmills to tilt at.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)is that it it makes people less likely to vote if they're repeatedly told that is a rigged game, there's no reason to participate. Bullshit. We need to get MORE people to the polls, not fewer. We need to inject ourselves into the process, work the polls, observe the elections, participate in your local party. Be part of it. The ones who are most vocal about bullshit election fraud are not working. They're armchair quarterbacks full of rage.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Oh, and only Camp Weathervane thinks Bernie's image as a straight shooter has been harmed by all this Brockian ratfucking. Outside the bubble, higher-information voters know better.
brush
(53,978 posts)I've seen that over and over and over here.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Bye, now...
brush
(53,978 posts)Oh, and great statement from the Sanders camp in the NYT about "willing to harm Clinton" that should go over well with voters .
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)they didn't rig things in those states-damn Hillary is brilliant to have orchestrated that
brush
(53,978 posts)Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)is essentially clean?
Arneoker
(375 posts)Which are so much more democratic than primary states where it is easier to vote, because...reasons.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)If the game is rigged, its rigged against her.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)all american girl
(1,788 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)And I have proof of my belief-all your posts.
You on the other hand have some kind of CT theory that the evil Clinton machine manufactured 3 million more votes than Bernie. No proof, no evidence, just a feeling. Laughable man!
I do not care how old you are...grow up.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)There's no doubt there has been tampering, and no doubt Sanders would have more delegates had there not been any.
I doubt that anything will be done about it, but that doesn't make it any more legit in my opinion. This primary has been a joke.
Progressive dog
(6,933 posts)that they just keep voting and winning. Bernie's followers weren't even allowed to steal two delegates in Nevada. They must be cheating.
The Hillary delegates and voters didn't stay home like we wanted and we failed to suppress their vote.
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)it started in IA, imo. Bernie wanted the raw count,
the DesMoines paper agreed with him,yet it was
refused. That was the first state, and from then on
so many "glitches, irregularities, and mistakes" came
to light, but only partially.
I don't know whether Bernie could have won with
a straight forward fair system, but that is right
now irrelevant. By now I am not even sure whether
our votes will be counted correctly or not come
November.
pa28
(6,145 posts)The Des Moines Register called on the party to disclose this information and as far as I know they have not.
Until they took delegates in broad daylight in Nevada I had not given much credence to the idea of widespread fraud but at this point I believe it needs to be considered. If they were willing to do that for two delegates what else have they done?
vintx
(1,748 posts)People here used to care about election fraud.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)it would take a complete revamping of the DNC...and I mean COMPLETE,
starting with the FIRING of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz with extreme prejudice,
and working down from there.
The same applies to the DCCC and the DSCC.
From there, the Democratic Party Establishment for every single state need to undergo close scrutiny.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)deal with Hillary to launder more BIG MONEY but also for the Super-Delegates. They are what we saw in NV. It was also what we were watching in Polk County Iowa.
I have posted before about who we re-elected a Hillary proposed group of committees in our conventions. Hillary supporters proposed a slate of people no one knew and there was no other option. I am absolutely this is the same leadership in my state that made the deal with Hillary. I remains to be seen what will happen at our state convention when we elect the 12 outstanding delegates to the national convention.
It is my firm belief that they are quietly keeping control of the party because many of us Bernie supporters are new at this process.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)campaign. That leaves the crooked vote counting machines free to steal votes with no paper trail of any sort verifying the reported votes. What a system! What could possibly go wrong?
vintx
(1,748 posts)They really are desperately clinging to power.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)a candidate who has to cheat to win, who would LOSE AN HONEST ELECTION? How do we proceed from here? I am not a lawyer but certainly wish some public advocates could pipe in and help out.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)The revolution isn't just Bernie's campaign.
It's millions of people paying attention, speaking out, contradicting lies, protesting unjustices....
How do we proceed with HRC? We can start by embracing truth and transparency and encouraging others to do the same.
Here on DU, we learn that HRC supporters are desperately afraid of truth about their candidate. Every piece of information that reflects badly on her is denounced, and the OP beaten up.
Some of those who post here are a lost cause in regards to discernment of truth, and there is little use in dithering with them. Theirs is a cult of personality, just as the Bush candidacy was, and little of worth is being produced here.
So perhaps that question is better asked over on jackpineradicals.org.
It is exhausting and demeaning to have to fight to present a wide variety of opinions here on DU, from which something may be learned. Maybe that's why the fight against truth is so bitter here.
But a people without truth.....those people are called subjects, not citizens.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)as you can. I do not hold much stock in it. It will ring with a certain segment, like baggers do with the Repugs. But.... most will roll their eyes.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)of a position you did not logic yourself into.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)vintx
(1,748 posts)It's like the invasion of the body snatchers...
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Dem2
(8,168 posts)You are losing credibility, sorry.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)You have every right to your opinion.
brooklynite
(95,006 posts)...Which SPECIFIC actions in which SPECIFIC States shifted the delegate total to give Clinton a lead she didn't deserve?
Let's start with two easy ones:
New York: 100,000 Sanders voters were purged from the voting lists!!!
Response: A REPUBLICAN BOE employee did a sloppy job of removing names from the list. First there is no data that suggests that this fell uniquely on Sanders voters. Second, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THOSE VOTERS TURN UP TO VOTE in any significant numbers such that their inability to vote gave the edge to Clinton
Massachusetts: Bill Clinton interfered with voting at polling sites!!!
Response: First, the Mayor, Police Chief and Election Manager knew he was coming a day in advance. Second, do you seriously believe that showing up for 15 minutes outside 1-2 precincts shifted enough votes to affect the Statewide outcome?
Fell free to pitch me some others.
Bohunk68
(1,364 posts)What is at issue is the he interfered, contrary to legislated law. You are basing all of your argument on "significant numbers" when that is not the issue.
brooklynite
(95,006 posts)Bohunk68
(1,364 posts)YouDig
(2,280 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)"corruption!" every time Clinton wins? So you can all delegitimize her campaign?
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)I'm probably a few jury votes away from a universal ban. The censorship here is increasing at an alarming rate.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)When paying members can have their jury duty stripped of them without notice we've left any semblance of fairness behind.
They don't have to worry about jury stacking now because they're prestacked by the admins
I only hope that when they finally get rid of GDP that they reinstitute the hide rules so everyone with 20 hides has to sit and wait until all of them are gone before they can repost
oasis
(49,490 posts)Get real.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Only a naive fool doesn't recognize that there has been cheating and gross manipulation. But enough to flip the results? I'm not so sure about that...but I'm open to additional evidence. I do NOT trust electronic vote tabulation...far too easy to manipulate (via floating point inaccuracies, etc.).
stonecutter357
(12,699 posts)asuhornets
(2,405 posts)Karma13612
(4,555 posts)Not
yourpaljoey
(2,166 posts)The people might even demand it.
CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)loot after they pull off a big heist.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Anyone who has done any amount of political work knows that campaigns are often hard work and chronically short-handed.
The idea that there would be time, humans, or resources to devote to some kind of shadow activity going on under the crushing task at hand is pitiable.
obamanut2012
(26,188 posts)RKP5637
(67,112 posts)all politics/politicians. And M$M can not be trusted. IMO the US is in deep sh**. There are many divides in the US and I doubt it is healing no matter who wins the GE. It's been growing for years, this election season is just bringing it to a head.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)On the bible when I say that? Seriously, are some of you even listening to what you say. You pretty much said Bernie is the savior for America. He is a bitter old man with one talking point.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
kstewart33
(6,551 posts)It's amazing how they have infected Bernie's campaign. Every loss, a conspiracy. Every win, a justified victory.
Todays_Illusion
(1,209 posts)confirmed how very deliberately corrupt the HC campaign is. I am in particular appalled that some elected officing holding Democratic, Boxer, McCaskill and others lied publicly about the violence.
LiberalFighter
(51,388 posts)If there is true suspicion it is up to the campaign that considers something is wrong.
As for these shenanigans, many incidents occur every election that some consider shenanigans. Yes, some are. But many are difficult to avoid or they occur under unusual circumstances.
apcalc
(4,465 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)filed formal complaint's in all these myriad states where flagrant cheating has happened?
Has Bernie called for a recount anywhere?
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)CT happening, reality is here.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)and it helped them greatly
LonePirate
(13,446 posts)Response to reformist2 (Original post)
NowSam This message was self-deleted by its author.
tritsofme
(17,444 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Mr. Charnin is a mathematician with an extensive background in applied sciences. His current interest is in the area of election projections and election fraud.
Here is his blog: https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/
Corporate666
(587 posts)The DNC is not going to appease a fringe group of loons who spend their time conjuring up ways that the system must have been rigged simply because they cannot conceive of their candidate not getting the popular vote.
You're venturing into "steel beams" territory here. The small group of vocal malcontents have a choice to make. They can back the clear leader. Or they can dissociate themselves from politics and become like every other conspiracy/kook group. Freepers, birthers, beamers, etc.
winetourdriver
(196 posts)Now i don't want you to force yourself though, you might hurt yourself.
creeksneakers2
(7,486 posts)how Sanders supporters could be so convinced that Hillary would lose to Trump but on the other hand believe that Hillary is capable of hacking the vote. If she can cheat like that surely she could win the general.
I was told by the Sanders supporters that even though Hillary would hack the GE vote she would still lose because the Republicans are better at hacking and would steal more than she can and win.
So I wondered if the Republicans are that good at stealing what is the point of campaigning at all. I was told that Bernie would win by such a landslide that stealing the election would be impossible.
I have to admire the creativity of these nuts.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)Well since you are the one without the ability to accept what is the ligitimate truth, you will be the one who will remain lacking.
antigop
(12,778 posts)1) You've never written a computer program in your life.
2) You really didn't learn anything in the class.
And it's not just the voting machines. It's the program(s) that summarize and report the totals.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)nc4bo
(17,651 posts)Especially since Clinton, Inc. has never appeared interested in changing the perception of unfair, corruption infested elections.
Her silence is a YUUUUUGE "tell" for anyone paying attention.
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)I believe with the increased use of computer voting with no audit trails, or serious oversight that the accuracy of voting is highly suspect.
Exit polling now shows wide discrepancies with voting patterns compared to pre-computer voting. Do I beleive there have been shenanigans in voting. Yes, I do. Can I prove it? No.
There is significant money and power in these elections at stake, and one thing I do know is intention. If people are willing to risk jail time to rob a convenience store with small stakes I most certainly believe there are more powerful forces interested in robbing elections without comprehensive oversight. I just see almost every voting irregularity dismissed haphazardly. Maybe a person gets fired occasionally, but the vote always stays.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)I am pretty sure that if the elections had been fair she would be out of the race by now.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)Given what we already know - I reject 'legitimacy' altogether. By the time even more comes out though it will be too late. THat's how these frauds work.