Anyone calling a Jewish man with ancestors who endured the Holocaust a white supremacist...

[phleshdef]

...does not give a good god damn about black lives. That kind of bomb throwing doesn't help one single black life in this country. At one time, in another country, it was Jew lives that didn't matter. And Bernie sympathizes that plight better than anyone.

Just a short observation. That is all.

[villager]

1. It's true that Jewish lives didn't matter -- a bit -- to Nazis

...and not really that much to the Allies who wouldn't bomb the rail lines leading to the camps, etc.

And that history certainly got shat on over this past weekend. It's a funny way to go about coalition-building, all right...

[daredtowork]

22. In speaking of Allies

The Americans were rather laid back Allies until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

[villager]

36. That's a whole separate discussion about WWII

But we do know that once it was known what the extermination camps were...nothing was done about it.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. Don't forget the "after" years...

...when mostly Jews and a few other victims remained in the concentration camps or newly created "displaced person" camps. When countries capped their immigration amounts, and Jews were a separate category. When the home countries refused to let displaced Jews back into the country of origin, or when they did go back, they were murdered by the local populace. Jewish lives meant nothing before, during, or after the war...and little has changed.

[Facility Inspector]

45. EXACTLY

[DemocraticWing]

2. Well their protest did seem to focus more attention on the issue.

That's probably a good thing in some ways.

I do agree about your larger point though. The fact that Bernie is Jewish is overlooked quite a bit, and maybe this is because he doesn't talk about it, but it was something that happened quite close to him. It was most of his family, and from what I understand it's hard to overstate how many people that Jewish people lost from their own groups of friends and family in the Holocaust. It's one of the greatest tragedies in the history of the world, and Bernie was a victim even if he never got close to a camp. It's not having an important uncle or a grandparent in your life when growing up, or not having a role model when you enter adulthood, all because the person who could have been there for you was murdered for being Jewish.

[JDPriestly]

7. Rewriting a bit of your post, I think Bernie understands why the mass incarceration in our

country is so wrong because he knows what this means:

"It's not having an important uncle or a grandparent in your life when growing up, or not having a role model when you enter adulthood, all because the person who could have been there for you"

is in prison or "was murdered for being Jewish."

It's the absence of that guide and example in your life that really hurts the victims of racism and police brutality. Life is hard enough but life without a father or a mother or an uncle or aunt, without the adult presence that you happen to need as a child, without that family surrounding you with love, is really hard.

There is something, just a touch, of loneliness in Bernie. It is also there in people whose loved ones are imprisoned for long periods.

Our society is gradually defeating cancer or at least giving people with cancer longer lives very often. Why can't we have the kind of effort to defeat crime and incarceration that we have used to fight cancer.

Why can't we figure out why crime happens and what to do about it other than incarcerating people.

I wonder how the national cost of jails, incarceration, parole, probation, and criminal courts compares to the cost of education, of Social Security, of Medicare. We spend a lot on crime. What could we do with that money if we could reduce crime. It sounds a bit impossible, bu we really haven't tried. We have not approached the problem scientifically, not at all really.

[daredtowork]

3. And anyone still posting "kneejerk reaction" posts a day later

Must be willfully refusing to look into the history of the Black Lives Matter movement and possibly academic African American studies/ethnic studies in general. That term may be a whole lot more common than you think.

[sabrina 1]

6. Maybe it's best not to assume that you know anything about people you do not know.

The dirty tricks were exposed, thankfully they did not harm the entire movement.

Black Lives Matter opened for Bernie in LA tonight without the disrupters and AAs are signing up to campaign for the man they KNOW has fought for Civil Rights since before he entered politics, since then using his votes, and will until he no longer can.

Cory Booker stated today that Bernie Sanders 'has a long history of fighting for Civil Rights' no doubt disgusted at anyone who would try to use this terribly important issue as a political football.

I doubt Booker will endorse Bernie, but he felt the need to speak up about this despicable tactic.

Thankfully it was exposed early, and served as a warning of what can be expected in the future.

And yes, it was a vile ethnic slur to call a Jewish Senator a 'white supremicist' and it does need to be said before it too becomes part of the effort to derail his campaign. We have plenty of anti-semitics in this country, apparently.

[daredtowork]

8. You are profoundly wrong on this

I say this with apologies especially to Manny and any one else on DU who already has it in their minds that those women issued a one-off "insult" that offends Jewish people. But if you look at it that way, then everyone who is Jewish is going to have to go after a bunch of people in the Black Lives Matter movement, and, by the looks of it, they are going to have to go after a lot of academic writing as well.

I'm sorry to say that this "white supremacist" phrase is actually a common way for radical African Americans, and possibly other American ethnic groups to describe who they regard as white oppressors. If this terminology would be particularly offensive to Jewish people, someone will have to go back in a time machine and erase a considerable amount of discourse and the resulting social media chatter that is layered on top of that.

When Bernie allowed Black Lives Matter to open for him, he had to know that.

Black Lives Matter has not apologized for Seattle. Patrisse Cullors has explicitly supported it.

If you can lay your urge to be defensive aside for a few minutes, as Bernie himself obviously has, someone posted a terrific post-disruption radio interview with Marissa Jenae that provides great insight into her thinking here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=509895

You don't have to support what she did to want to educate yourself on where #BLM disruptors are coming from. I don't support what she did in Seattle, either, and I would want Bernie to try to protect himself against further such stage-hijackings. However, I think this is a point of view that's important to understand.

[sabrina 1]

9. I'm sorry, but you are very wrong about this. I KNOW many of the people who are part

of Black Lives Matter and not ONE OF THEM would even think of using such language. Not one, not to mention my own personal friends, co workers and acquaintances. I do not know where you got the idea that this is typical of AAs, it is NOT.

The disrupters have been exposed and denounced by most decent people.

Let's not start stereotyping here to try to excuse obvious disrupters who do NOT represent anyone but themselves.

I will take what members of the movement itself think of her.

I believe you are the one being defensive.

Maybe if you take a look at this response to them, you might change your mind about AAs in general using that kind of bigoted tactic supposedly to protest it.

There is no excuse for bigotry anywhere, ever and certainly NOT in the name of a movement that is working so hard to end it.

This is how AAs who are trying to end racism think, NOT what you are defending or appear to be defending.

[daredtowork]

11. There's a great spectrum of people involved in the Black Lives Matter Movement

Alicia Garza, founder of the hashtag herself uses "White Supremancist Liberals". Just because your friends wouldn't dream of using that kind of language doesn't mean its not a core concept of the movement.

Patrisse Cullors, the other founder of the Black Lives Matter movement has supported the "disruptors", and she has confirmed that #BLM will not be circulating any petitions of apology.

Are you saying the two founders of the Black Lives Matter movement are not decent people?

You will find the disruptors a lot harder to dismiss after you listen to that interview, and I think it will give you cause to rethink the "white, liberal city" as well.

I hope I'm not being defensive. I'm just trying to be open-minded, and I'm trying to listen. It's amazing to me how hard it is to break through to people who seem to be stuck in this permanent state of reaction to what the disruptors *did*, but will not consider why they did it. No one will even do a google search on "white supremacist liberals".

In the radio interview, you can pick out some of the words that were shouted out them. Suggestions to tazer them. Impatient remarks that Ferguson has been memorialized before. The worst: "How DARE you call me racist-!" You could almost hear "girl" at the end of that one. From your point of view the "boos" of the crowd prove your point that they were disruptive. From their point of view it reproduced the hatred of Seattle as an overwhelmingly white "liberal" city that that never gets around to dealing with problems of racism because those white liberals are the vast majority.

That radio interview is really good. She's honest about what she is, including being a radical Christian and what sounds like an anarchist toward the end. I doubt you will like her anymore. But it's better to understand her from this interview than all the rumors that are being pushed around DU from people who just want to back up their feelings.

[TheFarS1de]

10. I do understand your point ....

However as someone of Jewish heritage being labelled a "white supremacist" is the lowest insult you could deliver . And after the NRN protest they had already inserted themselves into the political dialogue . This particular "protest" , coupled with the background information emerging about this one individual screams concern .

IF , that's an if , this does pan out to be true then there is a bigger background issue happening that even the AA community are either not fully aware of or not acknowledging . Any group of people are capable of producing "Tea Party" type groups , Left and Right .

Just my opinion of course but it is something I personally will be watching .

[daredtowork]

12. This is why it needs to be UNDERSTOOD

I think people should be googling "white supremacist liberal" now and tracing the origin of that term. Does it come from Farrakhan and other anti-semite influences? Then that needs to be unearthed and challenged. Right now I believe it is being used unreflexively to "talk back" to perceived white oppression. All people have to do is start googling to see that this runs a lot deeper than Seattle.

Just freaking out about Seattle exhibits "white fragility" and shows that people are ignorant about African American culture. Doing more research about the true roots of the term would enable people to get to the heart of the matter.

[cali]

15. both the women prominent in the Seattle action are currently affiliated with

a NoI Seattle group. And yes, Farrakhan has long employed the term white supremacist Jew.

[daredtowork]

18. Farrakhan goes so far back

He could well be one of the sources. All I know is it seems to be a rather common phrase, and we shouldn't be attributing it as a random insult dealt out by these two women. If people are serious about calling out anti-semitism in the *Black Lives Matter* movement, and I suspect it goes deep down into Academic Ethnic Studies, then they need to lay this problem at the right door.

I have a feeling pointing and saying "Anti-semites!" at BLM will go over just about as well as BLM members pointing and calling out, "White Liberal Supremacists!" (There was also "Screaming White Racists" apparently) to the Seattle crowd. You need a hefty side of documentation with that.

[cali]

23. I am not indicting BLM. I am directing my comments at Mara and Melissa

who are involved with a Farrakhan group in Seattle. That's it. And yes, I think it would be unfortunate on many level a if many BLM activists became entangled with Farrakhan.

[daredtowork]

44. Another possibility is

way back in time (say at Malcolm X), the term "White Supremacist Liberal" was picked up, filtered through academic African American or Ethnic studies, and now it is commonly used without anyone thinking too much about it's anti-Semitic roots. If that's true, it's worth educating people on that. This is why I keep saying it's important to find out where the phrase is coming from first.

[NutmegYankee]

25. I think conflating a movement and a person is an error.

A person may say they are acting on behalf of a movement, and believe they do so in completely good faith, but like all people they have their own biases and beliefs that can sometimes embarrass that movement. Given that at least one of the disruptors is an evangelical Christian, it's possible she holds some anti-Semitic views. It tends to be common in fanatical Christianity. I do not think that people are saying that BLM is anti-Semitic, just that the language used by that individual was offensive to a religious/ethnic group who has often been the victim of white supremacy.

[daredtowork]

43. IMHO it's And not Or

You are right, a person can hold views that are not part of the movement. Marissa's extreme Christian views are personal. However, "White Supremacist Liberal" is not personal to her. You can google that.

[NutmegYankee]

16. So "calling out ANTI-SEMITISM" is "White Fragility".

Fuck that noise!

I haven't had a chance till now to comment on what happened this weekend because I was heavily involved as the best man in a Jewish Wedding. In the little downtime I did get, I can say that this mostly liberal group was rather disappointed at the use of "white supremacist" against a Jewish man. It is utterly disgusting!

[daredtowork]

17. arg and/or sigh

Not everyone in that crowd was Jewish.

But while we are on the subject of being Jewish, let's say the roots of that phrase are in anti-semitism (from Farrakhan). And tomorrow there is a coup, and people trained in the BLM tradition rule the world. That would mean anti-semites are now ruling the world. There would be very little you could do about it because when "white supremacist liberals" came up, you only called out a couple of girls because they offended you when they took over the state at the Bernie Sanders event. Because you stopped at that reaction and didn't look deeper into the roots of that discourse, you were never able to call out the real sources.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

[NutmegYankee]

20. It did not come off as an attack on a white supremacist society.

It came off as an attack on a minority candidate. And that minority is deeply concerned about stuff like this because they've suffered through two millennia of oppression. Anti-Semites still rule the world.

I frankly don't think the women who disrupted Sander's event were really representing BLM, and won't blame BLM for their actions, but it was extremely disheartening to see some on DU defend that action.

[daredtowork]

21. I've been one who has been saying it was Hillary-sponsored

but after listening to Marissa's interview, I'm not so sure about that. This was within BLM's scope of mission.

Patrisse Cullors, one of the founders of BLM, supports their actions and says there will be no apology petition.

Alicia Garza, inventor of the #BlackLivesMatter hashtag, uses "White Supremacists Liberals" in her essays.

The Portland BLM group said they supported Seattle BLM in advance of Bernie going to Portland.

The leaders of Seattle BLM are still the leaders of Seattle BLM. According to the interview, Marissa just spoke to Patrisse about it and Patrisse was supportive.

We can't project onto BLM what we want BLM to be. We have to face the fact that BLM is to a party-driven organization. They are a goal-driven organization that is against "politics as usual". They said at Netroots Nation they would disrupt candidates at any opportunity. Marissa said that's what they were doing here: she could well be telling the truth.

I don't defend their action (I think Bernie needs better security and stage management), but I don't think it serves anyone to lie to themselves about what these women or BLM were doing. I highly recommend listening to Marissa's interview and trying to understand her perspective.

[cali]

24. I listened. I think she's confused and narcissistic and in the grips of religious delusions.

[Zorra]

42. Some things just can't be justified, no matter how much 'splainin gets done.

And there's a whole lot of 'splainin, and no justifying, getting done here.

Sorry. Actions have consequences. The Seattle incident does not reflect well on BLM at all. I hope someone with some semblance of wisdom from BLM has "the talk" with this young, inexperienced woman, before she successfully frightens every blue haired granny from Petaluma to Peoria down to Pensacola into voting for Donald Trump, and fucking up the lives of every non-white, and/or female, and/or LGBT, and/or every decent person in America who sincerely wants justice and equality for everyone.

Angry, aggressive extremists shouting blanket ethnic and/or racial slurs in front of a microphone. Not cool, especially in the minds of people who know history.

Bernie Sanders is a very gracious, thoughtful, and understanding human being, who clearly knows how to take a bad situation, turn it around, and bring it to positive resolution for everyone.

It would be good for everyone if we could put this behind us, work for positive resolution, and hope a similar situation does not manifest in the future.

I sincerely hope that Black Lives Matter achieves whatever righteous goals it pursues.

[mythology]

33. Repeating something doesn't make it true

Even a number of people repeating something doesn't make it true.

It also show a lack of historical knowledge of the role of Jewish people as a whole in the Civil Rights movement and other areas/times like helping found the NAACP and being against southern attacks on blacks as similar to the pogroms.

[daredtowork]

41. True

And other posts have pointed to Farrakhan as being a possible source. I thought it might even come from Malcolm X. Whatever the source, it's not a spontaneous insult that just occurred to the women at the Bernie Sanders event, and I'm not sure that it was aimed at Bernie Sanders because he was Jewish. (A few people have heard a "bow down Bernie" remark that they regard as supporting anti-Semitism). I think it's worth looking at the anti-Semitism of the *origins* of that remark instead and calling that out.

[m-lekktor]

4. Especially if they are a Louis Farrakhan apologist. nt

[BeanMusical]

5. Totally agree.

[JI7]

13. same goes for all the george Soros conspiracy crap

We know where that comes from.

[HooptieWagon]

28. Snopes confirmed that Soros Foundation funding Ferguson-type activist groups.

I think I'll take Snopes word over yours.

[JI7]

32. no it did not confirm what was being accused

[Behind the Aegis]

39. I saw it too.

Funny, how anti-Semitism is being flung in all directions and others are trying to accuse each other of the very thing they are doing. This, of course, does not apply to everyone, or even most, but there have been some very unsavory (bigoted) remarks/articles/speculations, which simply serve as a reminder...some things never change.

[cali]

14. not ancestors, his family. grandparents, aunts uncles, etc

He was a child when it happened.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Thank you.

I understood the point being made in the OP, as you did, but "ancestors" just wasn't the best word. Not that it was bad, but that word usually brings up images of far-flung people, way back in time...not 70 years ago, and definitely not those of whom Sanders could have personally experienced had the world not stood by with its collective head up it's ass..

[randome]

19. Um, Israel is not exactly known for being welcoming for POC.

What BLM did to Bernie Sanders was stupid and insulting, IMO. But to imply that Jewish people cannot discriminate isn't supported by facts.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[MosheFeingold]

34. Of course Jewish people discriminate

Everyone discriminates, including black people, who are ironically more likely to harbor negative feelings towards black people than white people.

But a little bit about your post is not exactly true. Slightly more than 1/2 of the Israel Jewish population is Mizrahim -- that is, Jews from North Africa and the Middle East. They are brown-skinned. 20% or so is Arab --- increasingly Christian Arab because of persecution in the surrounding area/Egypt/PA.

They also took great efforts to rescue African Jews from Ethiopia, who would be called "black" here.

So, in all, something like 74% of Israel is not of even partial European extraction.

Are there typical problems of discrimination? Sure.

But they do a hell of a lot better job than here. And certainly better than surrounding areas, where Africans are still traded as slaves.

[hack89]

35. Families of 500 Ethiopian Israeli IDF soldiers to be brought to Israel

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134110258

You were saying?

[randome]

40. Oh, I may not be as knowledgeable on this as I thought.

But my central point stands: being Jewish still allows for discrimination. And actions of the Israeli leadership may not always reflect the attitudes of all Israelis, just as the actions of the Supreme Court legalizing gay marriage does not reflect the feelings of all Americans.

Every individual on the planet is capable of being discriminatory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel

The Ethiopian Jewish community's internal challenges have been complicated by racist attitudes on the part of some elements of Israeli society and the official establishment.[175] Racism has commonly been cited as explanation for policies and programs that failed to meet expectations. Racism was alleged regarding delays in admitting Ethiopian Jews to Israel under the Law of return.[174] The delays in admitting Ethiopians may be attributed to religious motivations rather than racism, since there was debate whether or not Falasha Jews' (Beta Israel) were Jewish.[176][177]

Racism was also alleged in 2009, in a case where school children of Ethiopian ancestry were denied admission into three semi-private religious schools in the town of Petah Tikva. An Israeli government official criticised the Petah Tikva Municipality and the semi-private Haredi schools, saying "This concerns not only the three schools that have, for a long time, been deceiving the entire educational system. For years, racism has developed here undeterred". Shas spiritual leader Ovadia Yosef threatened to fire any school principal from Shas's school system who refused to receive Ethiopian students. The Israeli Education Ministry decided to pull the funding from the Lamerhav, Da'at Mevinim and Darkei Noam schools, the three semi-private institutions that refused to accept the students. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke out against the rejection of Ethiopian children, calling it "a moral terror attack."[178][179]

When Ethiopians protested that blood donations from their community were thrown out, Harry Wall the Israeli Director of the The Anti-Defamation League stated that it was the result of the high incidence of HIV in Africans, not racism: "Whatever Israel's mistakes towards its Ethiopian Jewish community, the cause is not racism." It explains that "what causes the distress is bureaucratic ineptitude and a cultural gap between a traditional community and a modern, technologically-advanced, highly-competitive nation."[180]

In 2012, Israel appointed the country's first Ethiopian-born ambassador, Beylanesh Zevadia. According to the foreign minister of Israel, this represents an important milestone in fighting racism and prejudice.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[HooptieWagon]

26. NOI tactic.

[NutmegYankee]

27. What's NOI?

[HooptieWagon]

30. Nation of Islam.

Farrakahn's group. Anti-Semitic, b/c Jews are responsible for enslaving blacks. All liberal whites are white supremacists. No use for Dem Party. BLM seems to be borrowing much of their rhetoric from NOI.

[gordianot]

29. In no way do I see Sanders as a white supremest.

That his ancestors endured the holocaust is a factor, that my ancestors were slave owners (not confederate) is a factor in my complete rejection of white supremacy.

[SheilaT]

31. A couple of things.

First off, no one should conflate American Jews with Israel. Yes, lots of them do support Israel, but probably as many don't, or at least don't support much of what Israel had been doing in the past several decades, especially in connection with Palestinians.

And people should learn about just how much American Jews, mainly of the Reform branch, were involved in the Civil Rights movement. It's eye-opening.

So people, especially people of color attacking Bernie because they think that an older Jewish man doesn't understand their concerns, knows absolutely nothing about him at all, and know nothing about the history of Civil Rights in this country, and exactly which white people gave their lives to help them finally get access to the vote.