I feel personally violated

[boston bean]

by a particular post on DU. We are able and allowed to discuss misogyny that appears on DU, in this group. We need to be careful to keep it about the issue and not individual Duers, here in the group.... so here I go.

The post in question is about a particular Duer and her "tits". Why should I care right? Why should I be bothered? Why does it make me want to puke that shit like that is ok to be posted on DU? Why does it bother me that I participate on a board that allows that sexist, misogynist bullshit.

Well, with the precedence set, I guess any womans "tits" can be called out and discussed here on DU. That our tits, size, sagginess, beastiness, firmness is relevant to our opinions. It tells me that many men on this board feel this is an appropriate way to treat women here on DU. It feels very personal and insulting and degrading. I don't give a shit that one woman or some women feel it is ok to do that. It simply is not.

[no_hypocrisy]

1. Agreed. Stick to and argue the issues.

Leave the ad hominum attacks and logical fallacies to FR.

[seabeyond]

2. the visual. a group of men and one woman. the men threw out taunts about the tits,

the woman silent and the guys, a group of guys giggle and laughing holding up one woman. it is so similar to real life. coming across a group of men that feel they can behave however for their laugh at the expense of a woman and all others walk by or turn away.

yes

i felt it was a harassment no different than the work environment or on the street.

and ONE man pm'ed me how offensive all that was. how it was wrong in any manner. how disappointed he was in du, btw. it is always good to hear from the men that are offended and for their own reason wont say it out loud.

then we have a thread about an org milf. of course we know the guys will giggle with milf. and there the group is, cutting up and laughing and having a good old time. a group of men. at the expense of women. spell it out. actually spell out the term. mothers to fuck. reducing women to a fuck. and the men said how vulgar i was. the jury decided i was too crude and vulgar and my post had to go. and the joke about milf made it on to duzy award, while the reality of mothers to fuck, and reducing women to a fuck, was hidden.

it was an ugly day on du yesterday.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

15. I had a post like that hidden the other day

I tried to make a point by saying something very offensive, in order to try and make a point. Sure enough, I got alerted and his---along with a nice helping of finger wagging.

I was sooo angry..I was going to send it to you and a few others....after sending it to one person, then having some time to think, I decided to drop it....

[seabeyond]

17. men can reduce women to a fuck, it is merely biological, but a woman cant say men are reducing

women to a fuck, cause it is vuglar to the ears. a lot of hypocrisy and validating a behavior to allow them continue to do something, innately they know is wrong. we have to do what we can to protect our behaviors.....

[BlancheSplanchnik]

18. yes, the irony is pretty glaring

Well, perhaps a group email to the admins is in order?

[Voice for Peace]

32. I believe it's droopy dick syndrome that causes this behavior.

[seabeyond]

33. i have my own whole theory on that. yes. i do. nt

[CrispyQ]

26. I read the title to that thread & passed right by.

They can laugh & joke about MILF & even make it a DUzy, but when you tell them what MILF means, your post gets banned? Unfuckingbelievable.

Is this what DU has come to? This kind of junior high bullshit? I can hear the answers now, "It's just boys being boys," or "You feminists have no sense of humor," or "You need to get laid."

The jury system has not improved DU one bit.

[seabeyond]

29. lol.... you are good with predicting the predictable.

all but the "i need to get laid", lol.

[hlthe2b]

3. I gather you are referring to a post from the DU Lounge?

If not, then perhaps i am seeing something else...

Assuming I am talking about the same thing and at risk of being labeled by DUers outside this women-friendly group of being "humorless", IMO the lounge has become a really degraded pit since DU3 allowed for pretty much "anything goes"...

If it isn't scatological "humor", then the daily sexual word of the day is typically enough to make me question if DU has been infiltrated by 10 year old male adolescents who've managed to shake all parental supervision.

Unfortunately, their behavior is very much reinforced by many of the female "regulars" ...

I share your disgust, but suspect that admins will suggest that the degrading objectification is not confined only to women and thus fail to appreciate our issue. What can we do about it? Good question. One would think the same reasoning that caused the admins to block such "sex" talk on DU2 might still be amenable to changing the situation?

[boston bean]

4. The one in the lounge was hidden miraculously

The one bemoaning it in Meta is the one to which I refer.

[hlthe2b]

5. Ahh... thanks for clarifying.

[redqueen]

6. It was a disgusting display of male privilege.

The frat boy behavior which we have been accustomed to in the lounge was flaunted in our faces in Meta.

And juries and other DUers seemed not to think anything of it. Perfectly acceptable to objectify (DEHUMANIZE) women.

It's one thing to subject women to that kind of degrading treatment in a space where its considered acceptable. It's quite another to drag it to other places (H&M, LBN)

The fact that so few people seem to realize how that treatment is inextricably linked to the loss of rights women are currently facing, and our status as the sex class and the submissive sex truly sickens me.

[hlthe2b]

8. I agree... After going through that thread I was going to enter the fray, but what's the point?

Anything I post will simply feed the childishness of those justifying this.

The admins have given their implicit blessing to this behavior. It is bad enough in the lounge but now they are going to allow it to propagate in H&M too.

Sickening, indeed.

[seabeyond]

10. allowed thru out. latest breaking news which is a more serious forum

and certainly GD.

edit.... no need to highlight more.

[boston bean]

11. It only gives it a kick and more attention.

DU admin should be embarassed that this system they have created allows these types of threads.

They can wash their hands and say, the jury didn't hide and look the thread is flaming, people want this shit.

And they do not address misogyny the way they address other bigotries.

[redqueen]

13. "they do not address misogyny the way they address other bigotries."

That is consistent in all of society.

It really is like the matrix. Most people don't even see it. We grow up thinking it's just the way things are, and unlike racism and other forms of bigotry, this one is championed by the overwhelming majority of people all over the world.

[tblue37]

25. People don't notice because it is so pervasive. Fish don't know

they are wet.

[redqueen]

30. Yes, Linton really nailed it with that observation.

It's a pity that so many are able to successfully observe that reality about other cultures, and their blind spots, but persist in ignoring our own. Well, one specific blind spot of our own, anyway.

[LiberalLoner]

36. This is so true! Even as a young child, I asked, "why does the world hate women so much?"

I'm glad I didn't see the post in question, because I would have been very upset by it too. Just talking about it here, it is not as upsetting as running into it myself.

I agree, it's not acceptable behavior and I wonder if things will ever change. In some ways, as far as women reduced to their "f#ckability," I do feel things are getting worse and worse with every passing year. We are making gains in other areas, but as we do, the male hatred of women on display seems to increase. Just like as we got a black man for a President, the racial hatred was more on display. Exactly like that. Like, "you might have gotten to the white house (or you might have your fancy job and fancy college degrees) but you are still only a n##### or a c### and we won't let you forget that.

It's depressing to see how all of DU recognizes how bad racism is but gives sexism a pass, for the most part.

[seabeyond]

38. I do feel things are getting worse and worse with every passing year.

"the male hatred of women on display seems to increase."

i agree with you insight. i think you are right on. action reaction. universal law. we are watching it.

[CrispyQ]

46. There's a thread out there suggesting that if Obama is a one term prez,

it will feed the idea that a black man is not capable of being president - that he couldn't handle it & that the People rejected him.
Sadly, I completely agree that millions will adopt this idea if Obama loses. It will be years, maybe decades before a black is elected again. If we ever get a woman in the White House, it will be worse. Much worse.

I agree, the hatred is getting worse. The entertainment & advertising industries have huge influence on our society & yet no one seems to notice. Not one of my friends had heard of Miss Representation before I told them about it. Even then, only a few have bothered to watch it. They are so immersed in a culture that regularly objectifies women that they hardly see it, even when it's right in front of them.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

16. same here.

Jury system is a good indicator of where the social norm is set, and I'm not too pleased.

[Little Star]

7. There are things not allowed on DU3...

read the TOS: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

I wish that misogyny and sexism were specifically spelled out in the TOS as a violation. :sigh:

I can dream can't I?

[seabeyond]

9. the c word has made it thru jury more times than not. nt

[LiberalLoner]

37. Me too.

[seabeyond]

12. and

another thread brought to my attention about nice tits... but hidden. yea. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018109191

the game is on. with more hides, maybe the "men" will be self centered enough to stop for a bit.

the things women, that we all have to get. there are a lot of men and women on du that dont go into these threads. they dont like this shit. and they dont speak out for reasons the women here on the thread are not speaking out. but i get pms from both men and women discussing this. so at least i get to see people that are bothered. where on the surface we dont see it. this poster alerted on it. didnt like it. was offended by it and a MAN. it happens. trust in that. there are a lot of good men that are quietly standing up for us. but as many women are not out there speaking out, yet pming thanking for us speaking out.

[hlthe2b]

14. That's reassuring....

Two hides in the lounge. It seems at least some DUers want to reign this in.

[secondwind]

19. K&R - I'm with the OP.

[Texasgal]

20. Oh, but hey...

We hate SEX! We can't stand men! We are humorless and overly emotional!

[seabeyond]

21. i got two lighten up francis

in the MILF thread. nothing like being consistent.

that was just two lighten up francis. i also had others telling me to lighten up in other ways.

yes...... it is funny to reduce women to body parts. things. dehumanize.

where is the humor....

[redqueen]

22. It's so annoying, those stupid claims couldn't be more wrong.

The vast majority of us love sex, we absolutely love men (who don't think sexist humor is acceptable) ... and overly emotional?

That last claim only proves that they have not the slightest, faintest hint of the beginnings of a clue how much hurtful, antagonistic shit we flat-out ignore, just do not react to *at all*, let alone in an 'overly emotional' way, on a daily fucking basis.

[Texasgal]

35. The people that make these claims

are lacking in intellect.

It's lazy and it's dishonest.

That last claim only proves that they have not the slightest, faintest hint of the beginnings of a clue how much hurtful, antagonistic shit we flat-out ignore, just do not react to *at all*, let alone in an 'overly emotional' way, on a daily fucking basis.

Damn SKIPPY!

[teewrex]

23. I though this was supposed to be a mature political forum, if some want to indulge in low base

"humor" go to 4chan or 9gag or reddit.

[seabeyond]

24. go to 4chan or 9gag or reddit.

isnt that the truth. and go figure. i havent participated in any of those sites you mention.

thanks.

[valerief]

27. I prefer to reserve the bulk of my anger for the assholes running this country and killing us. nt

[redqueen]

28. It is really hard to have a place you considered to be a community which you are a part of

show you in no uncertain terms that your concerns are nothing to them. It is hurtful.

That kind of treatment, unsurprisingly, is reserved for one group, and one group only.


Furthermore, the 'but we have worse problems' tactic is rather stale. Women (especially) have the ability to be outraged about more than one thing at a time.

[seabeyond]

31. a group of whites taunt a single black person with boy comments. we shouldnt be concerned

we ought to ignore and dismiss. and even belittle those that may be concerned. because of the "assholes running this country and killing us."

thanks.

oh, and the group of straights that taunt the single gay person. pfff. what is the problem. there are BIGGER issues. you know. "assholes running this country and killing us."

thanks for your insight.

[redqueen]

34. An interesting blog post about reacting to sexist jokes.

This was reblogged so the quotes look odd but the message is hopefully clear. She had attempted to react lightheartedly at first to some sexist jokes.... and then...

http://newwavefeminism.tumblr.com/post/2816757159/why-your-super-ironic-make-me-a-sandwich-sexist-jokes

(snip)

Why, in the beginning, was I initially so keen to prove that I found those jokes okay, that they were permissible? Because I didn’t want to be ‘uptight’. Because I wanted to be cool. I wanted to show I got it. I didn’t want to be another one of those humourless, man-hating feminists. Well, if you call me that in response to me calling out your sexism, that really is fine by me. If I’m the angry opinionated one who won’t shut up, then I want that on a sash. I’ll be proud.

reblogging for commentary. I’m just starting my semester and feel as though i’m going to be dealing with a lot of “shut up you’re a women and only good enough to bring me sandwiches, lol jk” moments. I love acknowledging entries of people getting much needed anger off their chests. Eventually they’ll get it… eventually.

My fav line:

I have a wicked sense of humour. I like edgy jokes, I like controversial topics. The whole point of these jokes is some kind of ‘I know that you know that I know you’re being sexist’. So I can’t REALLY get bad because you didn’t REALLY mean them. Un-fucking-fortunately, when you make these jokes, you are STILL just spewing out stupid, sexist, outdated, patronising 1950’s gender roles.

It’s an odd conflicting feeling, being around dudes who are “intellectual” and “liberal” and even “forward thinking” yet you still feel uncomfortable expressing how you feel because you’re only going to be placed in that “aww, it’s cute how this feminist thinks she has real opinions” box. People are only willing to list when they feel like it, or if you can make it pertain to them somehow. Like, sorry - i’m really not in the mood to compromise my beliefs so it can be more persuasive to you. It’s either you believe in ending oppression or you don’t - but don’t be condescending to me by telling me i’m looking at everything wrong.

I love this: "I didn’t want to be another one of those humourless, man-hating feminists. Well, if you call me that in response to me calling out your sexism, that really is fine by me. If I’m the angry opinionated one who won’t shut up, then I want that on a sash. I’ll be proud."

Hell yeah!

I only just got to that point myself a short while ago.


And sorry bb, if this post seems dismissive of the seriousness and hurtfulness of the subject of this OP. I felt that hurt very deeply yesterday after reading some jury decisions, and another thread outside of H&M and the Lounge.

It's just... today I want to feel the joy and optimism seabeyond (usually) inspires in me when she reminds me of the ways in which things are improving, at those times when the all-too-obvious rampant misogyny in our culture gets to me. I hope my optimism and cheer in this one post aren't perceived as diminishing the seriousness and hurtfulness of the subject of this OP. I certainly don't mean it that way.

[Scout]

39. didn't you love how the poll about calling women girl....

turned into stupid childish shit like "she should call her boobies women" about some woman who calls her breasts the girls.... (not that there is or isn't anything wrong with that, i must admit i've never given it any thought), but totally had nothing to do with the thread).

also idiotic comments about removing the word lady entirely from use ... how they get there from the actual thread topic is beyond me, except as a juvenile grab for attention and beavis & butthead agreement from the other juveniles.

no one ever suggested that the words girl and lady should never ever be used, but look at how much whining there was going on about it, and the ridiculous examples used of that very thing.

[redqueen]

40. Outside of strictly moderated feminist spaces

I would expect no less than such laughable forms of illogical and pathetic derailment/distraction.

The only way to be rid of it is to ban it outright. It is too pervasive.

[usregimechange]

41. Was it alerted? What was the jury vote?

[boston bean]

45. Hi USRC

We do not post jury results here in this group.

If you take the time to read the entire thread, you will be able to, on your owne, find the post in question, and within that post you will see the jury results.

[BlueIris]

42. No one should be allowed to objectify anyone on this site.

People are not objects.

Anyone doing so degrades others and themselves by doing that.

[boston bean]

47. You would think it would be an auto TOS

but hell..... it's just the prudes that are offended, so WTH!

But then again, misogyny and sexism are not even listed in the TOS. You would think "gender" would cover it. But alas.... nope.

[BlueIris]

49. I think the "administrators" are afraid to ban people

no matter how bad what they're doing is. Financial reasons, perhaps?

I'm not expecting this board to prioritize banning misogynists.

[boston bean]

44. I am going to ask you to delete your reply.

We are not discussing the beloved, what if "context", here in this thread. We are discussing something real, where no amount of weaseling will get someone a free pass to insult us or attempt to derail the very real issue pointed out in this thread.

It seems you may be trying to obsfucate the real issue by interjecting some half baked scenario that doesn't even pertain to what we are discussing.

Try it someplace else. Not here.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, and would like to think you do not know you are posting in a safe haven group.

[seabeyond]

48. i are much nicer than i. i dont like these childish games. nt