MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 09:31 AM
Original message |
I think most everyone hear would favor seating the Fla. delegation |
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if it benefited their candidate.
The notion that large numbers of DUers are in actual favor of disenfranchising Florida voters strikes me as absurd.
They should be seated. No election has occurred there yet, all the names are on the ballot.
People are upset about this simply because it stands to benefit Clinton, based on the polling. But since nobody has an unfair advantage in Florida, you're just objecting to honoring the will of the electorate.
You think it hurts your candidate and benefits another. And how is that any different from what you're saying about Clinton? You're playing politics, too. You're trying to find an advantage for your guy and a disadvantage for the other guy.
The fake outrage over this is ridiculous.
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katmondoo
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Sat Jan-26-08 09:48 AM
Response to Original message |
1. I am in Florida and I say YES |
Rydz777
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Sat Jan-26-08 09:48 AM
Response to Original message |
2. The sanctions against both Florida and Michigan were ill |
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conceived. They have done nothing but irritate - maybe even alienate - voters in two states we will need in the general election.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
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There's no reason to alienate Democrats in two important states.
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MaineDem
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Sat Jan-26-08 09:51 AM
Response to Original message |
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I don't think any of the delegates should be seated from those states regardless of which candidate benefits.
I also believe that, ultimately, the convention will vote to seat them all.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #4 |
5. Why should the voters be punished |
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for some pissing match between the state parties and the DNC?
Are DUers REALLY arguing against letting Democratic votes be counted?
Amazing.
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MaineDem
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Sat Jan-26-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
8. The State Party had options they could have gone with |
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The DNC offered to help them do that financially. The Florida Party said no.
It's more than a pissing match. it's following - or not following - the rules. The Florida Democratic Party, whose leaders had a vote in the entire process, is not following the rules. I'm sorry Florida Democrats are paying the price for that but it's not fair to those states that did follow the rules if one or two states are allowed to flaunt rules and get away with it.
As I said, I still think the delegates will ultimately be seated but I see a Credentials fight at the convention.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #8 |
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Republicans were all for "the rules" regarding Florida: There's no recount provision for the whole state! The votes have been counted and recounted!
Bleh... if "the rules" disenfranchise people, they should be revisited.
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Blarch
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
11. because noone complained |
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till it was clear where the votes were going. Hillary sure as fuck wouldn't be fighting for those states if the votes were going to Obama.
Lets be honest now.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
12. I was honest in my OP |
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What's unfair about seating the Florida delegation? The election hasn't occurred, all candidates are on the ballot?
Why SHOULDN'T the winner want those delegates?
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Seen the light
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
14. Interesting you say that |
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Since I assume you're all for letting Michigan stand when Obama and Edwards weren't even on the ballot. Are you REALLY arguing for disenfranchising Obama and Edwards voters in Michigan?
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #14 |
17. I didn't say a word about Michigan |
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in my OP, did I?
They could all be uncommitted, or let the results stand. There was no requirement that Obama and Edwards take their name off the ballot - none at all. They chose to do so.
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Seen the light
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #17 |
20. But then you would have a problem wouldn't you? |
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Why let Florida's votes count, but not Michigan's? Why are you in favor of not letting Michigan have a say?
Honestly, the only real fair way for all of this would be to have a revote sometime this summer in both states.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #20 |
25. Florida hasn't even voted yet |
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Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 10:27 AM by MonkeyFunk
why redo what hasn't happened yet?
I'd be fine doing it again in Michigan, but I doubt that will happen.
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hedgehog
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Sat Jan-26-08 09:56 AM
Response to Original message |
6. Given all the hoo-haw over the Obama ads that are running nationally and |
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as a result are running in Florida also, I'm beginning to suspect that he's picking up votes there. That said, as an Obama supporter, I'm against seating either the Michigan or Florida delegations.
For all those concerned about disenfranchising voters, consider this. The primary schedule was set up and agreed to as the best way to ensure that everyone had a fair crack at selecting the nominee. No matter how you slice it, someone is first and someone is last. I speak as a New Yorker who has seen the field winnowed down to the last one or two standing for the last 5 elections. Florida and Michigan agreed to the plan, then broke the agreement. If their delegates are allowed to vote on the nominee, what happens in 2012 and beyond?
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
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if the voters of those states decided to do this. But they didn't.
They shouldn't be punished.
It's also just stupid politics - we'll need Florida in November, and it makes no sense to me to piss off Florida democrats.
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hedgehog
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
29. Who elected the legislatures in Michigan and Florida? nt |
MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #29 |
35. the same people who elected the legislture |
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in place in 2000 that tried to disenfranchise thousands of voters.
The same people who elected Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris.
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THUNDER HANDS
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message |
10. i hear nothing but the sound of whining |
rodeodance
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
60. IP is right--most of "outrage" was directed at Hill--forgetting it is about the voters. |
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People are upset about this simply because it stands to benefit Clinton, based on the polling. But since nobody has an unfair advantage in Florida, you're just objecting to honoring the will of the electorate.
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babylonsister
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:18 AM
Response to Original message |
13. This post from a DUer from MI is interesting, as is the thread: |
MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #13 |
16. That';s not interesting |
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it's just a vicious rant, having little to do with the topic at hand.
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babylonsister
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #16 |
18. It's a first hand account from someone who felt their vote didn't count, |
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and they are angry about it. That's vicious? No, that's life whether you want to believe it or not.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #18 |
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was just a rant. A typically vicious rant.
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babylonsister
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #21 |
24. Well, you would know 'vicious'. Bye-again. nt |
MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #24 |
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you're funny.
Bye bye! Keep me on ignore this time, will you?
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goodhue
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:19 AM
Response to Original message |
15. If it makes a difference, they should not be seated |
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You don't get to break the rules and still play the game.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
19. She's not trying to break the rules |
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she's trying to change the rules.
That's the same argument republicans used in the 2000 recount - YOU GOTTA FOLLOW THE RULES! And they didn't care who got disenfranchised as a result.
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goodhue
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #19 |
23. Florida state party broke the rules, and Hillary then expressed aghast |
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Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 10:25 AM by goodhue
Now she is simply cynically playing Florida voters and media in typical Clintonian fashion. Hardly a badge of courage.
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babylonsister
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
22. Or, as another DUer stated, why is Hillary choosing heads when the |
MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
27. No coin has landed in Florida |
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they haven't voted yet.
Try to keep up.
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Orsino
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Sat Jan-26-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message |
28. Not without a do-over with all the candidates. n/t |
MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
31. How is Florida a do-over |
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when the vote hasn't occurred yet?
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Orsino
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #31 |
39. A do-over wouold require a complete re-boot... |
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...with no sanctions, and every candidate able to campaign before the vote.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
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It's an even playing field now.
Nobody's going to campaign in Alaska, Hawaii, Maine, Wyoming, Idaho, etc. etc. Candidates don't have to campaign in a state for the results to count.
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Orsino
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #41 |
44. Not with sanctions having been in place. |
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I'd like to see Florida have a real, party-sanctioned primary, with all delegates aware long before caucusing that it's for real.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #44 |
49. well that would've been nice |
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but it's not happening. So now we have to figure out how to fix this mess.
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Orsino
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #49 |
52. One way to keep *me* happy would be to have the sanctions lifted... |
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...and delay Florida's primary a few months to level that playing field.
But I'm not a Florida voter, so I won't try to sign away their right to be important via an early primary. As a battleground state in '00 and '04, they have developed a sense of entitlement perhaps the tiniest bit out of proportion to the number of electoral votes ultimately at stake.
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cooolandrew
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message |
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Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 12:12 PM by cooolandrew
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
sandnsea
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message |
32. Wait until the convention to decide to seat them |
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Because everybody goes for the winner by then anyway. How about that?? NOOOOO?????? Right. Because you want to put the delegates in Hillary's column and that's all you want.
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Colobo
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:13 PM
Response to Original message |
33. I'm in Florida and say LET OBEY THE RULES OF THE PARTY. |
mondo joe
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #33 |
37. The rules aren't being broken. It's not against the rules to ask to revisit them. |
Orangepeel
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message |
36. I don't think they should seat FL unless they seat MI. And I don't think they should seat MI |
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unless the delegates from either state don't make any difference. The DNC asked the candidates to remove their names from the ballot and the DNC should do what they said they would do.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
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to the DNC asking people to remove their names from the ballots? I've never seen any such evidence.
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Orangepeel
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #42 |
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From Michigan DailyThe Democratic National Committee asked the candidates to withdraw from Michigan’s primary after the state legislature moved it Jan. 15. Democratic Party rules prohibit states other than Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada from holding their nominating contests before Feb. 5. http://www.uwire.com/2007/10/10/5-democrats-want-off-michigan-primary-ballot-due-to-early-date/
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CyberPieHole
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message |
38. Does it occurr to some people here on DU, that if the delegates are not seated... |
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and the voters of Florida and Michigan are disenfranchised, that most of them won't vote in the GE? Why would they bother voting in the GE, if their votes are not counted in the primary? The same way that the DNC has chosen to castigate the voters, the voters will castigate the DNC. The losers will be the Party, the Democratic candidate and the American people.
:kick: and recommend
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Honeycombe8
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Sat Jan-26-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message |
40. It's not our decision. The decision has been made by the Clinton supporters, and that's that. nt |
MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
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the "decision" was made by the DNC and the state parties in MI and FL.
Clinton wants to remedy a lousy situation.
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Nimrod2005
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:19 PM
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robbedvoter
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message |
46. Voting rights are popular with democrats. I don't care which candidate benefits. |
Beacool
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:21 PM
Response to Original message |
47. Florida will go Republican in November if the Democrats |
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disenfranchise their delegates. I've lived there, my mother still lives there and I was there for 3 weeks over the holidays. There are plenty of Democrats who are furious at the party. We can't afford to lose this state in November, regardless of which candidate wins the primary.
Are some of you so blind not to see the danger in disenfranchising these voters??????
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spooky3
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message |
48. The DNC has to have a means of controlling its own primaries |
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States should not blow off the national party and schedule their primaries whenever they please. They need to work within the DNC to change the sequencing if they think it's somehow unfair. The blame lies squarely with the state officials in FL and MI for the consequences of their blowing off the national party's rules.
Without sanctions, the DNC has no way to control its primary process.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #48 |
50. There are lots of sanctions |
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that don't throw out voters.
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spooky3
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #50 |
53. There could be, but were those agreed to in advance? |
PervezClinton
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:25 PM
Response to Original message |
51. I think you make a compelling point. |
rodeodance
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:39 PM
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rodeodance
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:41 PM
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56. Susan B. Anthony would be proud of you monkeyfunk:-) |
rodeodance
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:42 PM
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Vinca
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:42 PM
Response to Original message |
58. So who's going to get the delegates if they're seated? |
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Since Hillary agreed to the stupid scheme of disenfranchising Florida voters, does that mean she gets rewarded for not taking her name off the ballot? If you want a "do over" so the other candidates can place their names on the ballot and run a campaign down there, fine. Otherwise, it has the appearance of a campaign trick in which she agreed to the party's edict at the beginning (but left her name on the ballot anyway) and is now trying to claim the delegates retroactively. It smells, but isn't surprising given the campaign she's running.
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PervezClinton
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Sat Jan-26-08 01:46 PM
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59. Everyone "here" thinks you're the bee's knees. Flawless reasoning. |
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