Reply #85: Um... [View All]

[Darranar]

first of all the feelings of the majority of the Arab world towards zionist do count if you don't think so then you must not read Al Jazeera?

To the contrary, I do, though not in Arabic, which I do not know.

Who the Arab World thinks are Zionists is not relevant to who actually are Zionists; if what the Arab World considered to be Zionism actually was Zionism, I think most decent people would oppose it outright.

Basically its Jewish Nationalism why is it demonized? when noone
gives Arab pan-nationalism a second thought? Thats right Jews want to have a State Armenians have a State East Timorese why not Jews?

Both the Armenians and the East Timorese created a state where they actually lived. Israel, however, received most of its population through immigration. This is a significant difference, especially because the land the immigrants came to was already occupied.

Could Zionism have been realized without massacres and ethnic cleansing? I think this point is one where both views are legitimate, and neither approaches the anti-Semitism that some accuse anti-Zionists of harboring.

There are other arguments against Zionism, too. Every situation is different, and one is wise or moral in one case is not necessarily so in another.

Or I guess you believe that Jews can live without a refuge again when the next major Pogrom happens somewhere in the world? If not I guess you really only care about Human rights when it does not apply to Jews.

Most certainly, the Jews can live without a Jewish state. For two thousand years it was done; even the Holocaust, a vicious crime far exceeding all the others, did not destroy the Jewish people.

If a Jewish state could just pop into existence with no harm to any non-Jews, then I would strongly support one. In the current situation, it is probably wisest to preserve one. But I do not know what I would answer, if I lived in 1947 but I knew all I knew now, to the question of my support for a Jewish state.

The vast majority of the Jewish world believe that a state is needed for self defense.

This may be. It does not necessarily mean that it is so. Truth is not a matter of popularity.

Without Israel Jews behind the Iron Curtain would have disapered and Jews in the Middle East would have remaind second class segregated underlings of Brutal middle eastern dispotic Leaders.

Another possibility is that the relative freedom from intolerance experienced by Jews in Arab lands before World War II would have continued. Admittedly it may not have though, but certainly the creation of Israel contributed greatly to that intolerance, though it also provided a destination for the Middle Eastern Jews fleeing it.

Equal Rights means giving Jews rights as well

Quite clearly, unless rights are denied to everybody else.

the right that Jews want most is self determination.

Assmuing you mean Jewish statehood, I highly doubt that, considering that the reasons most Zionist Jews want self-determination have to do with the violations of other rights in states not controlled by Jews.

If every state in the world was tolerant of Jews and gave them full rights, I don't think there would be very many Jewish advocates of Zionism.

Jews had a few Choices continue to be oppressed or do something about it.

Which does not mean that Zionism was, or is, the only solution.

Now that Jews stand up for themselves they are treated with the same contempt.

That is a good indication of the success of Zionism, isn't it?