Ukraine Premier Warns of 'Coup'

[cal04]

Ukrainian Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich urged supporters on Friday to help him avert an "unconstitutional coup," as he prepared to meet European and Russian mediators to discuss disputed presidential polls.


Supporters of West-leaning rival Viktor Yushchenko, who says Yanukovich's victory in Sunday's vote was achieved by electoral fraud, blocked official buildings and challenged the government's control of the country. For a fifth day running the streets teemed with Yushchenko's allies.

"Dear friends, together we must do everything so that an unconstitutional coup in Ukraine does not happen," Yanukovich told thousands of his own supporters brought to Kiev by train from the Donbass coalfield in his power base -- the Russian- speaking east of the country.

"I believe in our strength, I believe in the law, I believe in the constitution," Yanukovich told the crowd, mostly men in their 30s and 40s, outside the main railway station. A Reuters Television correspondent at the station said the miners were highly organized -- broken up into groups of 100, each under the direction of a supervisor. Most were carrying large sticks.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20041126/ts_nm/ukraine_dc

[VivaKerry]

1. Will George Bush show the world, and the blue states

how to do a coup? Because I would sure like to learn how to do that right here in the US of A.

[Briar]

2. The US is behind what is going on

Interesting story on this here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1360236,00.html

[Deja Q]

3. The Guardian - are they like the UK's 'The Sun' tabloid?

If they're more legitimate than the Sun tabloid, then that article is a bombshell.

[DavidDvorkin]

9. The Guardian is the most legitimate English-language paper

in the world.

[Delphinus]

20. Thank you, David.

My sentiments exactly.

[Ima]

31. I agree

I wish they would open a US branch, I'd subscribe.

[cal04]

4. here's another article

no surprise, what this about, oil)

Interference in Ukraine is one more example of the administration's desperate need to keep its oil-driven "war on terrorism" train from derailing.

The Bush administration's arrogant triumphalist rhetoric masks the fact that its plans for easily securing the world's last remaining energy reserves for its chosen elites is failing, despite its military aggression. It has also failed so far to "manage" a world economy that teeters on the brink of collapse, and one that is only sustained by book-cooking and criminal money flows, such as the renewed Afghanistan opium trafficking, reestablished under US occupation. See:
Afghanistan's disturbing poppy explosion/UN says nation tops Colombia as capital of illicit narcotics


The failure to install a pro-Western government in Ukraine will gravely threaten the US energy conquest, and perhaps derail the imperial agenda altogether.

Colin Powell threatened: "if the Ukrainian government does not act immediately and responsibly, there will be consequences for our relationship, for Ukraine's hopes for Euro-Atlantic integration, and for individuals responsible for perpetrating fraud."Coming from the representative of the most criminal and militaristically violent presidency in United States history, there is little question what the "consequences" will entail.



http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/112604Chin/112604chin.html

[Deja Q]

5. Awesome of them to mention Afghanistan's poppy fields... as you recall,

after 9/11, * had a chance to destroy Afghani poppy fields to help the 'war on drugs' big-time. He didn't and made a cockamamie excuse in a feeble attempt to justify it.

And if the US imperial agenda fails, what happens next?

[VivaKerry]

12. The Taliban had the poppy fields snuffed out pretty much.

Our invasion gave them free reign to get it going again. They increased output like by 500%, I read somewhere.

[ilovenicepeople]

36. Opium production should be up 700% by next year(from 2001)

You gotta keep wallstreet afloat somehow.

[Johnyawl]

8. Good God! We need to hire these people!!

From the article in the Guardian:

"If you want to know how to beat a regime that controls the mass media, the judges, the courts, the security apparatus and the voting stations, the young Belgrade activists are for hire."


How come the Democratic party can help organize this kind of effort to overthrow corrupt foreign regimes through the ballot box, but can't seem to pull it off at home???

[ixion]

10. Fraud: The New 'Murikan way

:cry:

[VivaKerry]

13. I read that article earlier. VERY interesting

and to a post below: Yes, we need to hire those people!! LOL

[DoNotRefill]

28. From your article:

"The Democratic party's National Democratic Institute, the Republican party's International Republican Institute, the US state department and USAid are the main agencies involved in these grassroots campaigns as well as the Freedom House NGO and billionaire George Soros's open society institute."

It's not a Republican plot....

[cal04]

6. Russia slams Ukraine interference

RUSSIAN Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has slammed Western intervention in Ukraine, as the European Union stepped up efforts to mediate a standoff over a presidential vote in the former Soviet republic.

"We are alarmed by attempts by certain governments to steer the situation in Ukraine away from a legal path," Mr Lavrov said.
"Especially when certain European capitals are declaring that they do not recognize the elections and that Ukraine has to be with the West," he said.

Geographically Ukraine is near the West but also near Russia," he said. "We hope that the world will respect the choice of the Ukrainian people, respect its right to decide on its own its internal affairs."

"These declarations ... make one think that someone would very much like to draw up new partition lines in Europe," he said.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11510650%255E1702,00.html

[Cheswick2.0]

7. this is not about bush...not to the people of the Ukraine

They feel their election was stolen by fraud. Bush and the CIA could not get all these people to the street. He may want to capitalize on this now that it is happening but that doesn't mean we engineered it. We should be in solidarity with the people in the Ukraine. They might want ties to the west because they are more conservative than some people here, however that doesn't make them wrong. They HATE russia. They were forced to be a part of the communist soviet union under which they lost civil liberties and were persecuted for religious beliefs. They fought hard for their freedom. They certainly don't want to be closely aligned with Russia now.
Again this is not about our fight with the right. It is okay if Bush gets what he wants in this case becaue he may be very sorry in the long run that he showed us the way. This is about people who want fair elections. I think we should find some Orange sheets, hit the streets and let them know they have inspired us.

[barbaraann]

14. If what you are saying is true, then

this is the first time in history the Bush administration is being moral and honest and is on the right side of a conflict. I have my doubts.

[Cheswick2.0]

21. I am not saying bush is moral or honest

like I said he may very well also want the opposition to win for his own personal reasons. But he does NOT HAVE THE POWER to get all these people to the streets.
They are in the streets because they want their election to be fair. Surely we can put aside out hate for bush long enough to see that.

[LisaL]

40. Don't believe it for a second.

Ukraine is near Russia, and US military bases in there would give US a lot of control over Russia.

[Wright Patman]

16. With all due respect,

the Russian state began in about 980 A.D. under Prince Vladimir in Kiev.

For Russia to give up all ties to Kiev at this point would be not very much different than if Lincoln had given up ties to Washington, D.C., and moved to Philadelphia or NYC for the duration of the Civil War.

It is more accurate to say that the Ukrainians west of the Dniepr River hate Russians. Ukraine, though, is very dependent on Russia for energy resources. This whole scenario has already played out once before during the breakup of the Soviet Union. Fortunately (or stupidly, if one is pro-Ukraine), the Ukrainians gave up their rather sizable nuclear arsenal and shipped it back to Russia.

And for any Americans to now support Ukrainians in election protests while doing nothing about what just occurred in our own country is just so over-the-top as to defy rational commentary.

[kostya]

18. This is more pro-russky B.S.

Russia didn't start in Kiev, it was started by what are now Ukrainians. The so-called "ties" to Russia started during the occupation by the Russians under the Soviet Union and the forced migration of Russians mostly into E. Ukraine when they industrialized the country (probably because they didn't want the environmental devastation in their own country). The Russians have ALWAYS shat upon the Ukrainians. Take the example of the engineered famine in the 30s that killed millions of Ukrainians, young and old, men, women, children. This sort of bad blood going back many generations makes your analogy about Lincoln trivial and specious. - K

[Cheswick2.0]

22. With no care about whether you respect me or not

I do not accept what occured in our own national election. So why wouldn't I sympathize with the Ukrainians who want a fair election?

I live in a community with a large Slavic population, Ukrainians being one of the main groups. You can quote anciet history all you want, in the last century the Ukrainian people were terrorized, occupied and forced to live under communist rule. When the soviet bloc broke up, they were the first or one of the first to break away and create their own nation.
I sing with corale which does eastern orthodox music. When we sing for Ukrainian people we have to be very careful not to use Russian pronunciation. They will get up and walk out of church rather than listen and we would certainly not be invited back EVER. If you want to know why something happens it is often useful to talk to the people involved and LISTEN TO THEM. These people are making it very clear they do not want closer ties to Russia.

[TankLV]

23. Where to begin.

First off: I am 100% Ukrainian - 2nd generation born in America.

All sets of grandparents immigrated from the Ukraine in the 1890's (my immediate family, my aunts and uncles and our entire church's families). There are strong ties to the country - including subscriptions to Ukrainian newspapers, which I read when I was last home in Buffalo for my Uncle's funeral. Very strong ties - and very strong opinions. I and my sister and cousins from our generation don't really pay that much attention to it - it is mostly a curiosity to us - but an interest none the less.

The Russians for centuries have persecutted and occupied the Ukraine - primarily for it's vast agricultural assets. Both sets of grandparents had farms but were dirt poor - the Czar's henchmen would periodically come thru and take all the best horses and all the grain - and my family had to pick up sticks beside the roadside to keep warm in the winter. That's the Russian treatment of Ukrainians in a nutshell.

During the revolution, for a brief period of time, The Ukraine was temporarily an independent state - until 1st Lenin and then Stalin got ahold of it. It was so bad - the loss of MILLIONS during the Russian instituted famine as punishment of 20's and 30's is a vivid memory for many who remained - that many Ukrainians sided with the Nazi's to escape the Russian boot - but soon were victums again of the Nazi camps. Then again of the Russian gulags at the end of WWII.

The Russians intentionally settled Russians in the Ukraine from the start of the Soviet Union to insure loyalty to Russia - the prime member with no equal of the Soviet Union.

Ukrainian language, culture and religion was actively discouraged during that time in favor of immersion in Russian language and culture - with little success amongst Ukrainians - but the large influx of Russians had a profound negative effect on Ukrainian hopes if nationhood. The Ukrainian language was actually banned, not to mention the main Ukrainina Catholic religion, as opposed to the Russian Orthodox religion.

In spite of it all, the eventually birth of the present Ukrainian Nation was achieved.

Those same Russians are at the heart of todays problems. These russians never accepted the Ukrainian nation, speak only Russian, etc. and are the primary supporters of the Russian puppet currently installed.

The fact that mobs of Russians have been constantly attacking and disrupting any challenge to the current regime and it's successor never makes the western press.

The fact that this happens to coincide with the current wims of the current US regime is just a horrible confluence of events.

Belive me, the Russians are no friend to the Ukrainians in this matter.

[LisaL]

35. It ain't no coincidence.

US wouldn't want Russian influence in Ukraine, would it now?
After all, US wants to be a superpower and doesn't need another one.
When I see Bush all concerned about election FRAUD in Ukraine-well, it gives me grave concerns about his motives.

[kostya]

42. Yes, we can have disdain for Bush's motives, but this fight in Ukraine

would happen whichever side Bush chose to pick for his own opportunism. We must separate our bias for Dubya (well-deserved bias) from the struggle going on in Ukraine. Nothing is a total coincidence, but in this case it is the Ukrainian people driving the change and Bush is just a bit player, drafting behind them. This crap about Kushchenko being a U.S. puppet (you didn't say it, but others have) is baloney. He is very popular in Ukraine and a real fighter. He is not perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.

Vivat Ukraina!

[LisaL]

44. I am not concerned with him being popular in Ukraine.

It's the fact that he is popular with Bush gives me grave doubts about him.
And why do you think Ukrainian election was even stolen?
Everything that points to stolen election in Ukraine applies to US. If anything, their election is more trustworthy because they were using paper ballots.

[kostya]

43. Well said. Spasiba!

[kostya]

17. This is exactly right!!! People here want to look for the U.S. to blame

specifically Dumbya and Co, but this is really about Ukraine wanting it's freedom from Russian influence and to finally be an independent state. I have family in Kyiv and it is really amazing what I'm hearing. These are everyday people, middle of the road, I never saw that they were politically energized before. But damn they sure are now!

No one is going to work and they are attending organizational meetings every day for Kushchenko. They claim that millions are pouring into Kyiv from all over the country and they are damned if the Russians/Kuchma are going to steal their election. They are working to block roads and access to government buildings. It makes me proud! And it makes the U.S. look like pathetically TV-drugged sheep unfortunately, although I suppose we have more means at hand to fight the fundies, et. al. than most folks in Ukraine.

It's currently in the hands of their Supreme Court as to whether the "official" election results will be certified and believe it or not their Supreme Court has had no trouble in the past challenging the government. So, I'm keeping my fingers crossed. - K

:bounce:

[LisaL]

19. Actually, people here can't believe the hypocrisy of Bush

and his administration-they are worried about FRAUD in Ukraine.
Give me a break!

[LisaL]

45. Seriously, wake up!

If they escape Russian influence, it appears that they will go right under Bush's influence.

[LondonAmerican]

11. Yet another CIA engineered coup

in the line of Yugoslavia and Georgia and funding terrorists in Chechnya, etc.

These bastards have some major cheek!

[fedsron2us]

15. This is a contest between Putin's crooks and Bush's crooks

Both candidates look to be little more than mobsters. One thing is for sure liberty and democracy are not guaranteed outcomes. There are lots of stories in the western media drawing parallels between the event is the Ukraine and the 'Rose-Revolution' in Georgia. However, there is now gathering evidence that the latter was an American inspired coup. It looks as though the freedom of speech promised to the Georgians has not lasted very long

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/118097/1/.html

The EU are desperately trying to negotiate a peaceful resolution to this constitutional impasse in the Ukraine as they certainly do not want a civil war breaking out on their Eastern border.

edit for typos

[Just Me]

24. Hell, even I'd have trouble voting for the one I wanted,...

,...Yanukovich vs Yushchenko,...geez,...

:evilgrin:

Seriously, though,...the weirdest human divisions seem to be visibly cropping up. What is happening?

[donheld]

25. Well at least Al Gore Conceded

[kostya]

26. Fuck Yanukovych! He's a criminal and was only propped up

by government pressure on the media. His house of cards is about to fall apart. - K

[LisaL]

27. I have grave doubts about the other guy-considering Bush

appears to support him.

[DoNotRefill]

29. Dosen't Soros also support him?

eom

[LisaL]

30. Whatever gave you that idea?

[Ima]

32. Posted by 'Do not refill'

"From your article:


"The Democratic party's National Democratic Institute, the Republican party's International Republican Institute, the US state department and USAid are the main agencies involved in these grassroots campaigns as well as the Freedom House NGO and billionaire George Soros's open society institute."

[DoNotRefill]

33. the BBC article linked to above says....

that Soros's organization was involved.

[Chicago Democrat]

38. He's brave and apparently has been poisoned...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4041321.stm

The present Ukranianian government makes Bushco look like honest/good govt by comparison.

[LisaL]

39. Don't let this fool you.

He wants Ukraine to join Nato. No doubt Bush is already planning all the military bases he can install in Ukraine if this guy is elected.
And if he was poisoned, wouldn't you think he would actually be dead?
I am pretty sure they have some good poisons in Russia.
http://english.pravda.ru/mailbox/22/101/399/14639_yushchenko.html

[daleo]

34. Fascinating bit about exit polls, which applies everywhere but the U.S.

"Freedom House and the Democratic party's NDI helped fund and organise the "largest civil regional election monitoring effort" in Ukraine, involving more than 1,000 trained observers. They also organised exit polls. On Sunday night those polls gave Mr Yushchenko an 11-point lead and set the agenda for much of what has followed.

The exit polls are seen as critical because they seize the initiative in the propaganda battle with the regime, invariably appearing first, receiving wide media coverage and putting the onus on the authorities to respond."

It sounds like the Democratic party is so busy organizing opposition in the Ukraine, that it couldn't manage to do the same in the U.S.

[bushnboots]

37. Ukranian operatives stole GOP vote-rigging scams?

Funny that Powell and now even Bush himself are pointing to the discrepencies between the Ukranian exit polls and reported votes. Must be something they know alot about.

[daleo]

41. It takes a thief to know a thief n/t