Trial starts for 66 accused of child rape and sex abuse

[emad]

Times
From Charles Bremner in Paris



THE Loire town of Angers is the setting tomorrow for the trial of 66 men and women charged with the rape and sexual abuse of 45 children.

The trial is expected to last four months. The case emerged in 2001 when police investigated Eric Joubert, a sex offender who was released in 1999. They found him living at the home of Franck and Patricia Vergondy, a couple under investigation for sexually abusing their children. The three are alleged to have been the centre of what became a child-abuse ring and half of the defendants have pleaded guilty.

A dozen couples, mainly in their thirties and forties, on a run-down estate are alleged to have held orgies with their own and friends’ children, renting them out for money or goods.

Several mothers are accused of violating their own children. Of the 39 defendants in custody, 13 are women.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,172-1507206,00.html

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Ick.

n/t

[MissB]

31. Double ick. (nt)

[Tempest]

2. And most likely like all the other cases like this

They will be released in 10 to 15 years because the case was built on a foundation of lies, coercion and tampering by the police.

No one in their right mind can seriously believe something like this really happens on such a large scale for so long without being found out.

Not one case like this in the U.S. has ever held up under scrutiny.

[kk897]

3. hm...sounds like they were found out to me. n/t

[Tempest]

4. They weren't found out

The police put together a case against them.

And when it comes to sex crimes cases like this, the police are always found to be wrong. Especially in the U.S.


Again, I ask someone to find one case like this in the U.S. which wasn't overturned because of police misconduct.

[kk897]

6. Franklin Cover-Up. Google.

Court found in favor of abusee, perp refused to deny it.

[Tempest]

9. Tin foil hat time

The was no court case and no abusee was found in favor.

The only court cases (that I can find) in relation to the Franklin scandal were for cocaine and gun charges, and another for bank fraud and embezzlement.

[mordarlar]

15. Ex Senator DeCamp won a million dollar lawsuit on behalf of one of

the children.

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/1538670.php

Near the bottom there is an MP3 on which DeCamp mentions the win.

[Tempest]

18. The only lawsuit I can find was one he filed for libel

And it was settled out of court.

In DeCamp's own words:

http://www.davidicke.net/tellthetruth/coverups/decamp.html
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2004/210704johndecamp.htm


Perhaps you have a cite from a source other than DeCamp himself that he won a million dollar lawsuit on behalf of one of the children.

[mordarlar]

22. Listen to the MP3 he mentions the libel case, (he brought) AND the..

1,000,000 lawsuit.

[Tempest]

20. Found it

http://www.heart7.net/mc-victim-awarded-1million.htm

A federal judge in Lincoln, Neb., has awarded $1 million to an Omaha man who claimed the former manager of a defunct Omaha credit union forced him into child pornography years ago. Senior U.S. District Judge Warren Urbom said the judgment for Paul Bonacci, 31, was a "fair amount" for mental and physical injuries Bonacci attributed to Lawrence King.


Still doesn't prove there was a big sex ring, or that there were ties to the government.

Sounds like King was running the show on his own, and the judge squarely puts the responsibility on him.

[Megahurtz]

158. You want government ties?

You've got it:

http://www.voxfux.com/features/cia_child_sex.html

[Megahurtz]

77. Bullshit!

"The police are always found out to be wrong"? What kind of ignorant assertion is this?

And police misconduct has fuck all to do with if a case of child abuse is really true or not.

[Tempest]

84. Again I ask

Cite one case where police claims of ritualized abuse like the ones in this case were not found to be falsified.


Timeline of the Ritual Abuse Panic
http://members.shaw.ca/imaginarycrimes/timeline.htm

[Megahurtz]

90. It would take me some time to look it up

because I'm obviously not as quick-witted as you!

But I ask you this:

How were these cases proven to be falsified?

In other words, by legal standards they supposedly could not be proven right, but......

can you show me proof that these people lied???

[Tempest]

97. Yes, I can prove they lied

The victims would recant, admit to lying or claim the police coached and coerced them.

It comes from the victims themselves.


From an article on this very case:

But the prosecution hopes to avoid any repetition of the errors that plagued a previous high-profile paedophile trial - the Outreau case in northern France last year.

In that case, the accused spent months in prison awaiting trial and 13 people were implicated on the testimony of a woman who later admitted she had been lying.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4308025.stm

[Megahurtz]

104. Okay, but that is not proof that everyone is lying in every case.

What I am concerned about is in cases where a person admits they are lying, it falsly sets a precident that everyone is lying in every case.

This is the precident that the McMartin case created in California, and it went on for years.

I think that precident has since changed a little.

Still, maybe no one could prove that it did happen, but then again no one could prove that it really did not happen either.

[Megahurtz]

157. Here's your answer, CONVICTION LIST:

http://www.ra-info.org/resources/ra_cases2.shtml

[Minstrel Boy]

7. Here's your logical fallacy:

"No one in their right mind can seriously believe something like this really happens on such a large scale for so long without being found out."

But you see, it has been found out. The fact of this story demonstrates that. And stories like this have repeated numerous times.

It's been uncovered, but you cannot entertain its validity.

[Tempest]

10. Being found out means it has been witnessed

Where is the evidence there is a credible witness?

Preferable not a child who has undergone police "questioning".


The only "facts" in the story are police claims and "alleged" behavior.


I can't entertain its validity because cases like this are always found to be unsubstantiated and overturned in time.

Again, find one case where widespread abuse such as this has stood up over time and not reversed.

[mordarlar]

11. And who would be a witness besides the abuser and the abused....

And to some the testimony of the abused is irrelevant.

[Tempest]

12. We'll have to wait to see what proof the prosecution has

The article as posted doesn't say there is any, nor does it say any of the accused have admitted to the crimes.

Pleading guilty doesn't equate to admission, just ask Arnold Friedman about that. Or Jeffrey Stoll.


>>And to some the testimony of the abused is irrelevant.<<

History has proven that children interviewed by the police and police psychologists are coached, coerced and have had false memories planted.

Most courts have agreed children are unreliable witnesses.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tempest]

87. Timeline of the Ritual Abuse Panic

http://members.shaw.ca/imaginarycrimes/timeline.htm


Once again, admission of guilt is not admission of the crime.

Look at the number of guilty pleas made every day by innocent people because of one reason or another.


>>here is a list of ritual abuse convictions<<

Not one of the cases upheld was of a large scale abuse ring where satanic rituals and murder were part of the case, as in this case.

Try again.



>>I really cannot believe your position on this<<

At least you didn't accuse me of being a child abuser like another poster.

[CoffeeCat]

101. Tempest....can you help me to understand...

Why you are discussing large-scale rings involving satanic rituals and murder--to make your points regarding this particular case--that doesn't involve those things--at all?

I truly want to understand what you are saying. I do understand that many cases of ritualistic abuse involving Satanic rituals--have been debunked.

However, this case is about one convicted pedophile who lived with a couple who was under investigation for sexually abusing their children--and the involvement of other like-minded pedophiles which created loosely organized child-molestation activities.

We know that pedophiles exist.

We know that children are sexually abused.

We know that millions of child pornography images are on the Internet.

We know that child molesters communicate with another--because the police report finding extensive child porn collections in the homes of child-sex offenders.

I'm not following how you can seriously doubt this case, so much.

[Tempest]

106. No case with a large number of defendants has ever held up

66 defendants abusing 45 children in a group atmosphere. According to the article, they operated in a small geographical area, they all knew each other and they participated in group activities.

No case like this has ever held up, not to mention pedophiles rarely operate in large groups.


In every case I looked into when there's a large number of defendants, there has always been claims of satanic rituals and murder.

I'm willing to bet these claims are made in this case during the trial.

[girl gone mad]

134. It isn't just the satanic ritual cases that have been debunked.

I think what causes skepticism with this case is the number of mothers (and fathers) that are alleged to have been involved, selling their own children.

That kind of thing is rare in developed nations, and unheard of on a such a large scale.

[Megahurtz]

86. Don't tell me, let me guess......

either you are a "Father's Rights" Family Court attorney and/or a criminal defense attorney,
a paid psychologist using Dr. Richard Gardner's bogus "Parent Alienation Syndrom" to fraudulently win court cases,
a juvenile court officer getting payola behind closed doors,
or a juvenile court judge getting payola behind closed doors,
and/or a Bohemia Grove Society Member.

Or a variation of the above

Am I getting warm?:evilgrin:

[Tempest]

88. Cold as ice

>>and/or a Bohemia Grove Society Member<<

Accusing someone of being a child abuser just because you disagree with them is the classic sign of having a weak argument.

You lose.

[Megahurtz]

93. You wish!

And don't "gaslight" me by putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and veering off the subject at hand.

And you didn't answer my question HA! Gee, I wonder why?

Sorry to break the news to you but, you will never win the argument on this subject with me.

[Tempest]

100. I did answer your question

Your question was: Am I getting warm?

My answer was the subject line of my post.


Winning an argument with you would be meaningless, obviously.

[Megahurtz]

105. If I am cold as ice, then

why didn't you answer my question specifically?

[Tempest]

107. Because it's none of your business

I'm retired. I don't work for anyone, nor have I worked in any of the fields you listed.


The least you can do is admit I answered your question and you were wrong to accuse me of dodging it.

[Megahurtz]

110. Okay,

fair enough.

[jdj]

167. wow, are you some kind of child hater?

just curious.

Because you seem to be asserting that since you believe no case has ever been proven "beyond a reasonable doubt" (that's the standard, by the way, not absolute proof) that it simply doesn't happen, and the kids are full of shit. Fuck those kids anyway, right?

I know that cases like this being won would be bad for the business of one involved in a scenario like this, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that is not the reason for your defensive posturing. But it does kind of make one wonder.

[yodermon]

99. Here's some more

after a few minutes of Googling.

Fiji - http://www.fijiwomen.com/newsletters/regional/archives/regional_33/sex_ring.htm
Netherlands - http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/LIS/archive/decency/child-porn-holland-ring.html
Chile - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3182930.stm
Georgia - http://www.nospank.net/n-i89.htm
San Diego - NAMBLA - http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/4201638/detail.html

Don't forget, if these people are pornographers, there is a VISUAL RECORD of their abuse. This is becoming more common (obviously) due to the internet.

NAMBLA, by definition, is conspiratorial child-sex ring.

The child-molesting priests and THOSE WHO COVERED FOR THEM are by definition, a conspiratorial child-sex ring.


Oh, and I'm sure the sex-predators prowling around tsunami-ravaged indonesia looking for orphans are all acting ALONE and without collaberation.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/268322p-229792c.html

How do I know this? Because if they WERE working together, then that would be by definition a CONSPIRACY, and as we all know, there are NO child-sex-ring conspiracies, the idea is just too crazy.


My God, Tempest, I've read some of your posts downthread. You could give Karl Rove lessons in deflection and debate-reframing. In fact, you position on the subject IS typically Rovian "poisoning the well" strategy -- conflate children's testimony about over-the-top satanic ritual abuse with ACTUAL testimony about more "mundane" run of the mill pedophilia, and viola: children are not credible witnesses, and child molesters can get away with all but murder.

I am also not denying that there have been cases of malicious and false accusations in the past. And methods of interrogating (I hate that word in this context) children should be transparent, supervised, etc. But, you must admit that the sRA witch-hunt of the past decades provides GREAT plausible deniability for child molesters.

By your logic, we need to give shrub, Rove, Cheney and the rest a PASS unless and until Fitzgerald comes back with Plame indictments; nay, CONVICTIONS! (since that's the only criteria that holds any weight for you) Remember, innocent until proven guilty, even at the DU water-cooler. :shrug:

[Megahurtz]

109. Excellent post, Yodermon!

Thanks for filling in the blanks!

[Solon]

111. I don't think that charactizes Tempest fairly at all...

As I have said, such things exist, as conspiracies and as individuals, these things happen. However, there is not nor has their every been some worldwide conspiracy for the sole purpose of child abuse. If two pedophiles team together to scope out victims that's a conspiracy, so is sex slave trafficking and the such, none of us has disputed that. But there is no ONE group that is responsible, and as you said yourself, the former SRA hysteria actually damages the credibility of REAL abuse. The point is to try to separate the chaff from the kernel at this point.

[Tempest]

113. I don't mind being seen as the bad guy

And so far only one poster has accused me of being a sympathetic child molester.


The fact is, no case with a large number of defendants like this working together as a group in a geographical area molesting children has ever held up.

I'll take the proven odds that this case too will not hold up under scrutiny.

[Megahurtz]

117. Some of the cases haven't held up

simply because the courts are screwed up when it comes to child sexual abuse cases.
Again, just because the evidence was fouled, or they couldn't "prove" the case (under court standards these cases are difficult to prove and there are many underlying reasons for this) it still does not prove that the child sexual abuse did not happen, it only did not happen according to legal standards in a court of law which are screwed up to begin with.
The courts are slowly catching up on this subject, but it's going to take a long time.

[Tempest]

121. In the vast majority of the cases, the victims have recanted

Looking over cases like this one, I'm not finding court screw-ups, fouled evidence or burden of proof as the reason. I'm finding the victims themselves are behind getting to the truth, mostly after years of therapy.


In the vast majority of these cases, the defendants are found guilty.

It's only after the fact, mostly when the victims start to recant, that they fall apart.

[Megahurtz]

125. You say the vast majority of the cases?

I don't think that's true at all. I believe you are referring to a minority of the cases.

I think you may be focusing too much on the "McMartin style" cases here. And even then I believe the abuse may be true more often, than not.

[Solon]

144. See, that's the thing...

Most of these cases usually start out as a case of child abuse by an individual, usually a family member or friend. Then, for some reason, the accusations start getting so out of control that many innocent people are swept into prison on false charges, and rot there for years, before they are exhonerated.

Look here for some info:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_case.htm

[Megahurtz]

149. I addressed this issue on another thread

there are political issues involving child sexual abuse (especially incest)

If you read the book titled "Rocking the Cradle of Sexual Politics" by Louise Armstrong, it will give you an understanding of this.

For example, during the early 1980's, Richard Gardner M.D. coined a psychological disorder called
"Parent Alienation Syndrom" for his own agenda, and likewise the courts and defense attorneys used it for theirs. PAS is not listed anywhere in the American Psychiatric Association manual of mental disorders. If you read into this link, you will see that Dr. Gardner admits to being a pedophile himself:

http://cincinnatipas.com/richardgardner-pas.html

During the 80's and into the 90's, defense attorneys and father's rights groups used Dr. Gardner's "syndrom" in the courts to rebuke cases of child sexual abuse. This predcident extended far behond incest cases, to abuse by a non-family member cases, AND cases involving Satanic Ritual Abuse, and cases such as the McMartin case.

Richard Gardner M.D.'s bogus sydrom was rebuked in the late 1990's through court cases in the U.S. and strangely enough, after all of the uproar, he commited suicide (see link)

There were thousands of court cases that were won in the 80's in the U.S., incest or otherwise, with court precident through his false mental disorder!!!

Note to Canadians: Dr. Gardner's false syndrom is now being used in Canada, and possibly other commonwealth countries. Pass the word!

[Megahurtz]

5. Elch!

:puke:

[mordarlar]

8. Every time i see something like this I WANT TO SCREAM.WHY DO PEOPLE CREATE

CHILDREN TO USE THEM? Children are not objects for adults to USE. Where is their CHOICE. Their wants. A child does not say NO TO THEIR PARENTS. Their parents are supposed to be looking out for the needs and wants of the children. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. I DETEST PEOPLE SOMETIMES. God i cannot stand it anymore.

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mordarlar]

147. They may happen but this is no reason to calm down. IMO that is...

all the more reason to be upset.

Wars, starvation, torture, genocide, be-headings, rape, lies, stolen power, misuse of religion, racism, ANY abuse of children...

IMO all disgusting and worthy of a disgusted response.

[msmcghee]

13. Tempest speaks with wisdom here . .

. . there is tremendous incentive for police and prosecutors to play on our unreasonable fear of sexual deviancy - which is exactly comparable to the fear of witchcraft in the 1500's. People go nuts over this and kill each other.

Sit back and read the posts that will follow in this thread - and watch the power of this evolutionary fact of human nature unleashed.

[mordarlar]

16. Except that some of us KNOW for a fact that this stuff occurs.

[msmcghee]

17. I guess it's possible that at some time in history . .

. . some group of deranged parents and sex perverts may have gotten togenther in an estate far from prying eyes and set up a sex camp where their children were the slaves.

Then again, no I don't. It's just too perfect a narrative for those who would benfit from spreading it (cops and prosecutors with political careers to make) and just too far from anything like that that's ever been factually proven.

When a prosecutor tells someone they can plead guilty to a lesser offense and get out out in five years or - spend the rest of their (short) life in prison for child rape, people do what they can to stay alive - just like the Salem witches did.

You need to show some evidence that what you say is correct. All the evidence so far points to the opposite. It's like Christians need to prove that their god exists if they want him to be in my government.

Are you Christian too?

[mordarlar]

21. Are you Christian too? Is this the new dem way? I thought religion was...

a personal right in this country.

I KNOW sex abuse of children occurs. This is enough for me to DEFEND any argument i have made here. I NEVER said this specific case is PROVEN. I mentioned people that do this, AND I KNOW THEY DO.

Are you an Atheist? Lame eh?

[msmcghee]

25. I have to suspect that someone who believes . .

. . in dead people who come alive again, virgin births and divine creation of the universe may also be susceptible to other myths that feel good. Like, where do you draw the line?

That is not demeaning Christians. It is holding you to account for a belief system that is not reality-based. You chose it and that makes your other beliefs somewhat suspect in my eyes. I believe that people who believe in gods are most susceptible to the tag line at the bottom of this post.

Yes, I am an atheist and I'm willing to be held accountable for how that affects the way I interpret and see the world.

[Tempest]

27. The funny thing is

The Bible has several instances of sexual and ritual child abuse.

All condoned in the eyes of the Lord.

[msmcghee]

28. Yes, the wonderful old testament . .

. . that paragon of strong male values.

[mordarlar]

30. Ah i see, that makes it ok.

[Tempest]

36. Are you saying it's okay???!!! That's just sick.

You can't be referring to me, since I said no such thing.

What you created was a strawman. If you don't know what a strawman is, you need to learn to argue.


You're the one who claims to be religious, and since it's in the Bible...

[mordarlar]

42. No i never SAID i was religious. The other poster suggested i was.

It is irrelevant and so i did not answer.


The trend on this site to use RELIGION as a default argument during discussions which have nothing to do with faith, is getting very old.

Why exactly did you BRING up a Bible passage?

[Tempest]

52. I misread what you posted

>>Why exactly did you BRING up a Bible passage?<<

Because I misread what you posted.

[girl gone mad]

135. And God is a child killer.

He murdered a group of children for making fun of an old man.

[mordarlar]

29. You make an assumption of the validity of my BELIEF...

system (with no verification you are EVEN CORRECT) AND my my ability to form realistic thought processes outside of myth because i said i KNOW sexual abuse of children occurs. Yet I AM THE ONE WHO IS SUSPECT of non realistic judgment?

[msmcghee]

35. I never denied child sexual abuse occurs . .

It has seldom been shown to occur as some form of group ritual. It invariable occurs as singular act to be kept away from others if at all possible.

Yet, many group sex rings have been imagined by police and prosecutors that have shown to be false (virtually all of them in this country according to tempest and my memory) - after ruining many lives of innocent people in the process.

The reason these go as far as they do is that psychologically some people (a lot of people unfortunately) are susceptible to this type of mass hysteria when it comes to imagining child-group-sex-orgies. It would be interesting to explore why this particular fear is so virulent in some people.

IMO people who believe and form their lives around social myths would be more likely to believe other social myths. I believe that the irrational fear of Satan and the irrational fear of child-group-sex-orgies (or witches, or devils) are based in the same type of psychological mindset.

That's my opinion although I suspect it is based on some scientific facts. It seems intuitively obvious to me that people who are mistrustful of group-think phenomena would be less susceptible to this hysteria.

I hate to see innocent lives ruined for any reason. When it comes to these child-sex-rings, the only lives I've seen ruined are the lives of those who were wrongly accused. I simply think we need to be very careful about this - simply based on an understanding of human nature and the attendant irrational fear when it comes to group-sex and children.

[Tempest]

37. Mordarlar likes to set up strawmen

He doesn't seem to understand the concept of argument.

Responding to his strawmen is getting tiresome.

[mordarlar]

48. I am female.

[mordarlar]

46. At ten yrs old i sat on a couch while my mothers boyfriend told a group of

12 people. My mother included that he wanted to take my virginity as soon as possible. The group laughed. Some agreed that the sooner is the better.

You underestimate people.

[Tempest]

54. Once again you stray far from the topic

This has nothing to do with the case.

So according to you, just because ONE person said he wanted to fuck you, and the group laughed, everyone wanted to fuck you.


That's just asinine.

[mordarlar]

71. ...

>>>It invariable occurs as singular act to be kept away from others if at all possible.<<<

I was responding to this statement. I could have been wrong but it seemed to me this was a suggestion that people have issue with sharing this type of behavior. They do not.



Apparently i have upset you to the point where you cannot have a rational conversation without insults. So conversation ended.

[Megahurtz]

120. But she was a CHILD

that has everything to do with the case.

[Megahurtz]

161. I think you may need some education

on child sexual abuse, and the affects of it.

.........or do you???:freak:.........I'm not sure.

In any event, read it and weep:

FACTS AND STATISTICS:

http://www.icasa.org/uploads/child_sexual_abuse.pdf

[Megahurtz]

115. "Hysteria"? Seriously, that is totally uncool,

I have heard so many times of child sexual abuse claims being referred to as "hysteria" or "mass hysteria" that it is really an insult to victims who have told the truth. I would be careful of using a copycat phrase, because this is the kind of verbage that is used in court to discredit and degrade a victim. Besides, it's a very antiquated term for this subject. Straight out of the Middle Ages! I would hope to think that we've all come a lot further than that by now.

[Tempest]

26. Yes, sex abuse of children occurs

>>I mentioned people that do this, AND I KNOW THEY DO<<

And yet if you look at the history of cases like this, they ALWAYS end up falling apart.


Remember the Friedman case?

They were accused of molesting hundreds of children. They were accused of murdering children. They were accused of satanic rituals. They were accused of orgies IN PLAIN SIGHT.

And in the end, all but two of the children recanted their testimony and claimed the police coached them. Several sued the police and a couple won.

And from a recent interview with one of the children (now an adult) who still claims he was molested, it's obvious to everyone he is lying to get money. Even the interviewer, who was objective with every single other interview he conducted, slyly remarked how the guy was as honest as a viper.

[Megahurtz]

70. Oh my God, please!

Do you know why they fall apart?

Because people like you don't want to admit (for whatever reason, sometimes I wonder) that child sexual abuse really happens, so you scramble and confuse everyone who doesn't know any better to try to prove the accusations are wrong, which you cannot because your own opinion is fucking speculation!!!

"Obvious to everyone he was lying to get the money"???

Don't even get me started on this one!:grr:

[Tempest]

124. If you're so certain

Please provide a cite to ONE case where there was widespread abuse by a group of molesters working together in the same physical geographical area to abuse a group of children as in this case which has held up.

I continue to ask, but not one person has provided a cite.

There has been several posters like myself who have provided cites where the cases have fallen apart.


I'm not talking about trafficking or prostitution, I'm talking about the speculation as in this case.

Put up, or shut up.

[Megahurtz]

126. I don't understand, Tempest,

if you have never worked in any field involving child molestation cases, or have never been involved directly or indirectly in any way, then how can you claim expertise on this subject?

Just from reading newspaper articles from the MSM and or/watching TV?

And if you have not been involved in any way, why all the tenacious fascination to prove all child sexual abuse cases wrong???

[Tempest]

129. Do you enjoy setting up strawmen?

I have never claimed to be an expert.

I've made it clear I've read up on the cases, including reading testimony from the trials. Nothing more.


I have no tenacious fascination to prove all child sexual abuse cases wrong.

I have correctly pointed out that not one case such as this has ever held up.


Any more strawmen you'd like to build?

[Megahurtz]

145. I'm not building any "strawmen"

my posts are based on facts, not on speculation.

[Megahurtz]

159. Here's your answer CONVICTION LIST:

http://www.ra-info.org/resources/ra_cases2.shtml

[girl gone mad]

136. Utter nonsense.

You need to do some research into this particular case, and hope that you are never falsely accused in a case where witnesses are coached and bribed and threatened by psychologists and policemen into testifying against you, because that is what happened in the Friedman case.

Was the father a pedophile? Yes. Were the father and son ritually molesting neighborhood children? NO. Is it obvious that the witness interviewed on camera who still claims he was molested was lying? YES!

[Megahurtz]

146. I will look into this case, but seriously,

how do you know the witnesses were threatened and bribed by psychologists and policemen, did they admit to doing this?

Obviously if the father is a pedophile, then there is truth to what the witnesses are saying.

And it's really not always obvious when someone is lying.
Have you ever been accused of lying when you were not?

[girl gone mad]

148. The children who testified against the Friedmans..

later said they were bribed and threatened. There is video evidence of psychologists asking them leading questions.

A parent of one of the children involved made audio recordings of polce interrogating her son, and promising they would buy him pizza and be his best friend (I'm sorry, I don't remember the exact details, but that's the gist) if he would just say that he had been molested. This was after several hours of interrogation where he had been telling them nothing happened.

I'm not certain if pedophile is the right word, because the father had a very small amount of child pronography in the home. Yes, he desrved to go to jail for that, but having pictures of naked children does not make someone a multiple child rapist. Prosecutors and police went way overboard.

[Megahurtz]

151. Please read my post #149.

n/t

[Tempest]

23. Not the way the police make it out to be

Child trafficking occurs, but 99.9% of the satanic, child swapping, ritual murder and the like cases are found to be bogus. The other .1% is usually one or two people involved, not 66.

The vast majority of sexual child trafficking is for prostitution purposes, which is not what this case is about.

[mordarlar]

33. I was not SPEAKING specifically of this case....

Child sex traffic is IMO just as abhorrent as the CLAIMS made in this case. ANY human subject to SEXUAL SLAVERY is WRONG. REGARDLESS of what the use of the children IS it is TERRIBLE and NEEDS TO BE stopped.

Parents DO sell their OWN children as well. Does it really matter how many people are actually standing in the room at the time?

[Tempest]

39. Then what are you doing jumping into the conversation?

You specifically jumped into a thread which specifically was talking about this case.

Try this:
http://www.bobcongdon.net/blog/2004/03/charles-rules-of-argument.html

[Rush1184]

14. We should wait for the verdict before passing any judgement

remember, going to trial does not mean one is guilty... that is why we have trials.

[Megahurtz]

122. Sometimes people get away with murder in a court trial,

just because a naive jury let them off, does that mean that they are truely innocent?

[Rush1184]

155. That is besides the point...

The point is, that untill a person is convicted, we treat them as innocent, thus it is wrong to assume guilt over an arrest.

[Ripley]

19. Why the hell are people on DU defending these monsters?

...and half of the defendants have pleaded guilty.

This is NOT about the police framing anyone... they freaking admitted it! Some people sure do reveal a lot about themselves here.

[Tempest]

24. Why the hell are people on DU condemning these people?

They haven't been tried, they haven't been found guilty and no evidence has been presented.

So much for innocent until proven guilty.


>>and half of the defendants have pleaded guilty<<

So did Arnold Friedman, and he was innocent.
So did Jeffrey Stoll, and he was innocent.
So were the McMasters, and they were innocent.

Pleading guilty is not evidence of guilt. Anyone who follows the legal system knows that.

Hell, ask any Black person in Texas who was involved in the frame-up over drugs and the crooked cop.

[Conservativesux]

152. Welcome to BushAmerica: You are guilty until proven innocent.

[western mass]

32. Child abuse ring hoaxes....

"43 adults were falsely arrested on 29,726 fabricated charges of child sex abuse involving 60 children. Parents, Sunday school teachers and a local pastor were indicted and many were convicted of raping their own children and the children of other members of a sex-ring. Innocent people were railroaded into prison, and their children were sold into foster care."

That's a description of the Wenatchee, WA case (1990s). Read about it here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wenatche1.htm

Here's another one, the famous McMartin (1990s) case:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_mcmar.htm

Child abuse is real and it's an epidemic. "Giant abuse rings" --that's another matter entirely. If somebody knows of cases in the US that have not turned out to be a hoax, I'd like to know. Whether this one is real or not, I don't know (haven't read the article--seems to be a Pay site).

[Ripley]

34. For one thing, this case is in Europe, not the US.

And if you don't think there are giant abuse rings, you clearly have no clue as to what sex trafficking is.

Why do people cite a few cases of fabricated stories to deny the existence of the horrible societal ill? The same thing happens in rape threads. You know rape and pedophilia are facts of life and are extremely prevalent to near epidemic proportions in some societies. If you don't want to believe it, fine. But I can only come to one conclusion when people protest a little too much.

http://www.m-a-h.net/library/abuse/article-childporn.htm

[Bridget Burke]

38. "I can only come to one conclusion when people protest a little too much"

OK.

Anybody who mentions "innocent until proven guilty" or who mentions the many paedophilia hoaxes in the past is obviously suspect of abusing children.

[Tempest]

45. That's what he seems to be saying

I'd like to hear him say that to my, or anyone else's, face.

[Ripley]

51. Where did I once say that?

I never in my life said if someone "mentioned innocent until proven guilty" they were an offender.

I cannot understand why people are jumping to the defense of these people, when none of us is on the jury. It belittle the crime by bringing up the hoaxes. It is a clever way to make it sound as though it never really happens. Urban legend and all. I see it on DU all the time in rape threads. The statistics are ignored for the feel good defense of the poor men who are so unjustly hounded.

Why so eager to say this didn't happen?

[Tempest]

55. You made it very clear

"If you don't want to believe it, fine. But I can only come to one conclusion when people protest a little too much."


If you want to try to talk your way out of it, by all means be my guest.

But I'm not the only one who saw your true meaning.

[msmcghee]

98. It belittles the crime when prosectors perpetrate and . . .

. . people fall for hoaxes - and it also destroys innocent lives.

OTOH now that several child-sex-ring hoaxes have been uncovered in the last few decades, how many rational prosecutors are going to hold back if and when a real child sex ring appears - knowing that it would be easy for the defense to bring up all the hoaxes from the past.

The law is best applied cold - for the sake of society and for the victims. If you care for child sex victims you would be enraged at a prosecutor who perpetrates a hoax in order to further his career - knowing that would put future child sex victims in jeopardy.

Yet, you spend your rage on us who demand caution when bringing psychologically inflammatory charges - for the children's sake.

[Megahurtz]

160. I'm with you on that one.

I have now ultimately come to that same conclusion myself.

[western mass]

41. of course....

organized crime w/child prostitution & pornography exists. Nobody denies that.

The distinction is between that and these "home grown" giant abuse rings. If you think cases like the McMartin case are a "horrible societal ill", then provide some evidence of real cases like that. This is an honest question.

"If you don't want to believe it, fine. But I can only come to one conclusion when people protest a little too much."

Whoops--didn't read your last comment, which I guess suggests that anybody who suggests the possibility that witch hunts exists is a closeted child abuser. Uh....right.

[Ripley]

43. I never said hoaxes don't happen.

The argument I am seeing here is that by pointing out the hoaxes it is implying this could not possibly have happened. They are either liars or the police set them up. I think that is really a shame that people want to immediately jump to the defense of people who have admitted their guilt, as opposed to condemning this situation.

Why do you try so hard to convince me the story isn't true?

[Tempest]

49. THEN WHERE IS THE PROOF???!!!

We've provided plenty of evidence, and court cases, where the large-scale abuse claims were fabricated.

Provide ONE SINGLE CASE where large-scale abuse was found and successfully prosecuted (meaning the convictions held up under scrutiny).


The fact that you accuse anyone not agreeing with you of being a child abuser speaks volumes of how weak your argument really is.

[Megahurtz]

72. There is no hardcore "proof"

unless you film someone in the act...DUH!!!:dunce:

And as far as children being unreliable witnesses, you are WRONG!

And hardcore proof is not needed.

[Tempest]

91. Proof not needed?

They were accused of satanic rituals and murdering children.

Funny how satanic cults are always found with evidence of blood sacrifices, butchering animals and the like, yet none are ever found in cases like this.


Hardcore proof not needed?

So you're willing to convict someone on circumstantial evidence?

No wonder this country is going to hell in a handbasket.

[Megahurtz]

103. I know for a fact that things like this DO happen

and I'm sure that some people are really slick at covering up the evidence. Satanic Ritual abuse when it does happen is a very "underground" abuse, and very hidden from the public eye. That's one reason why most people find it unbelievable.

I would have to see all of the evidence you are referring to before I would convict someone, or before I would deem it as circumstancial evidence.

[Megahurtz]

169. CONVICTION LIST:

Here's your PROOF:

LIST OF SUCCESSFULLY PROSECUTED CASES:

http://www.ra-info.org/resources/ra_cases2.shtml

[intheflow]

56. HI, western mass.

Welcome to DU, from a DUer who lived 30 years in and around Amherst! :hi:

[Tempest]

44. There's one problem with your contention

As was pointed out by another poster, cases where there are large groups of people abusing children dont' exist, or are found to be fabrications of the media and/or police.


As in the case of Wonderland, it was a few people abusing children and then passing along pictures and movies of the abuse.

[Ripley]

47. So you don't think that large group of PRIESTS existed?

I don't have any documentation for orgies, but I've seen documentaries on the international sex abuse of children and they most certainly do pass the children around in groups. It is an underground network.

I've never claimed there weren't people unjustly accused. That is true for probably every crime on Earth. However the immediate proclamation that these 66 people are all innocent sounds extremely bizarre to me. I guess there will be a verdict at some point.

[Tempest]

50. There is NO evidence any of the priests worked together as a group

If you have some, by all means provide it.

I've read a lot about the priest cases, and I don't recall one case where there was widespread, concerted abuse.

[Ripley]

53. So if you didn't read about it , it didn't happen?

Wow and you think my argument is weak.

I don't feel like googling documentaries on the subject. You seem to be making a blanket statement and there is no way you can know for a fact that there has never been group abuse. And once again, this story is not in America. I'm sure you could find lots of data about this from Thailand.

I'll leave it at that. sorry to offend.

A link from UK: http://www.crcl.org.uk/ritual.html

[Tempest]

58. Yet again another request goes unfullfilled

I've read probably hundreds of articles about hundreds of different cases and NOT ONE mentioned ritual or concerted abuse by the priests.


>>Wow and you think my argument is weak.<<

You're the one who brought up the priests and tried to connect them to ritual abuse without evidence.

So yes, your argument is weak. And continues to be.


>>You seem to be making a blanket statement<<

JESUS CHRIST! You made a statement without facts and you're complaining about me?!

The nerve of some people.

[Ripley]

62. Did you see the link?

I edited one in.

[Tempest]

64. Just like your Wonderland link...

This one is also irrelevant not only to the case at hand, but to your contention priests engaged in widespread child swapping.

[Minstrel Boy]

76. Do you know of the current Toledo case?

A priest arrested for the 1980 ritual slaying of a nun on the altar (FYI, he'd failed a lie detector at the time of the murder), and four women charging that a ring of priests had abused them for years:



No longer was the probe focusing solely on the man accused of killing Sister Margaret Ann Pahl, but was expanding into a new direction: accusations that children were molested and raped by priests in ritual services.

...

Four women told detectives about being abused between the late 1960s and 1986 during cult-like ceremonies involving altars and men dressed in robes, the accusers told The Blade. "I've had nightmares about this since I was a child," said one woman, who asked not to be named. "I didn't think anyone would believe me."

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050220/NEWS08/502200352

[Tempest]

89. Investigation stage

No evidence provided for obvious reasons.

Come back in 7-10 years after the trial (the length of time it usually takes to uncover the truth in cases like this), and then we'll talk.

[Solon]

96. Read the whole article...

Some facts presented in it:

One, 3 of the 4 women only remembered the abuse in adulthood, none can remember details, and their own recolections are vague.

The woman who went to the church for money refused a psychiatric evaluation, asking, "Do hospitals ask rape victims to have psychiatric evaluations?" Actually, hospitals do ask that, to help with the trauma, also, she wanted 50 grand to recoup costs from a therapist.

Also, the one of the Church's own investigators doubts her story, the other doesn't. The police have found no evidence at any of the locations mentioned by the women of ritual abuse ever taking place there. Of course, it has been 30 years, so I can actually understand that.

I think the biggest mistake the prosecutor made was describing the nun's murder as ritualistic to the public, that only guarantees that things like this will make prosecution of the case as a murder, possibly for simple hatred or spite, much more complicated and harder to prosecute. As to these women's stories, I don't know, but then again, I wonder who there therapists were, and how honest they are in helping at least 3 of these women recover their memories of the abuse.

[Minstrel Boy]

133. The nun had stab marks in the pattern of a cross, was laid on the altar

in a sexual pose.

And you think "the biggest mistake the prosecutor made was describing the nun's murder as ritualistic"?

[Solon]

140. No I said to describe the murder as ritualistic...

to the bloody newspapers, who, as we all know, do not care about the truth, but about sensationalism. I'm not saying he should have said it at all, it should have been held back till trial when he presents the case to the jury. That is all I'm saying, prosecutors and police are NOT obligated to give out all details of a pending case to the public.

[Solon]

57. International child trafficking rings do exist...

In many cases they are organized, usually through front groups, travel agencies, and some NAMBLA affiliated groups. Usually they import their victims, illegally, so that they will fear the police for deportation or prison and never go to authorities for help. There is also the very rare instances of David Koresh type cults who 'marries' 12 Year Olds and sick shit like that. I do not doubt that such groups as those exist, along with the individual pedophiles and their victims.

However, there is a point where credibility of claims becomes suspect, usually in regards to when the mix in the usually pedophile characteristics with mass orgies, human sacrifices, and so called Satanic Rituals. Usually when those types of things are mixed together, along with some type of Nation or World wide conspiracy of such groups, it stretches credibility to the breaking point, don't you think?

[Tempest]

59. Good post

Thank you.

[Solon]

65. No problem...

Another thing to point out with such groups as I mentioned, in many cases, the numbers are small, the reason, obviously, is so they don't get caught. Usually the number of Pedophiles in such groups numbers less than a dozen all told, the number of children is about the same. As I said, in many cases this is done through the illegal importation of children so they fear deportation or prison by reporting the crimes. These Pedophile rings usually hold 3 distinct groups, the Pedophiles themselves, front groups, like travel agencies and the importers. The importers and travel agents themselves are usually not Pedophiles, but are in it for money, just like everything else, money makes the world go round, including in this case.

An excellent example of this are certain travel agencies here that have special "tours" to Thailand and other places for underage sex. Someone could go on a "tour" there, and arrange with different people there to import a child for sexual purposes back to the states, for a large fee. This is very similar to how many sweatshops in this country operate, by getting so many hundreds or thousands of dollars a head. Usually there is no contact between the travel agency and the importer, plausable deniability is a plus in this case.

[Ripley]

61. Perhaps.

But then again 5 years ago, you probably could not have convinced me that American soldiers would rape, smear shit upon, pile nakes bodies up and murder prisoners in Iraq.

I guess this world is so fucked up I can believe almost any thing. Doesn't mean I'm gullible. But more than once in my life I have heard some story about what humans can do to humans and thought "that is unbelievable, the absolute worst thing." Then a year later, something will top it.

[Tempest]

66. You can't be serious

>>But then again 5 years ago, you probably could not have convinced me that American soldiers would rape, smear shit upon, pile nakes bodies up and murder prisoners in Iraq.<<

This type of abuse and torture of prisoners by U.S. troops has been going on since the Civil War.

Jesus, there's volumes of evidence during the Vietnam war alone.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tempest]

69. Don't go away mad

Get on the Internet and get educated.


I don't have to call you stupid.

You do that all on your own.


Tell us again how if we question this case we must be child abusers.

[Megahurtz]

162. Stretching credibility to the breaking point?

Maybe, but maybe not:

http://www.voxfux.com/features/cia_child_sex.html

[Tempest]

40. Another case, close to home

This case happened in my town:

http://injusticebusters.com/04/Bakersfield_Dateline.shtml

[lolly]

68. Ahh, I remember reading about that

I had just recently moved away from Bakersfield, after growing up there.

Has anybody done a study on where and under what conditions this "ritual child abuse" hysteria pops up?

My own theory would be that conservative areas with a high rate of individual child abuse (spare the rod types AND repressed patriarchal types sexually abusing their children) would be more likely to spawn these hoaxes--but that's just my theory. Surely somebody's done some work on it? I think a hyper-Christian antipathy towards child care itself (children should be at home with their moms, not in child care) is also part of the package.

BTW, while some have said that citing a "few" cases that turned out to be hoaxes doesn't undermine the fact that these ritual Satanic abuse things happen, nobody has provided any examples of one that didn't turn out to be a fabrication, cooked up by sick-minded government workers.

I remember hearing about one in North Carolina, I believe. A really sweet young preschool teacher (early 20s?) spent several horrific years in jail and pretty much lost her whole life--friends, boyfriend, job, reputation--on charges that were clearly false. She was supposedly in two places at one time, raping children with kitchen utensils during naps in front of other children, etc. etc. I don't know what ever happened to her.

[Solon]

73. You do bring up a good point there...

Also, in the case of some of these fathers, and rarely, but possible, mothers, is they may actually relate it to their religion (I'm beating Satan out of you!) that type of thing. The primary thing to remember is that in many cases, these are individual, within family type of abuses, no one ever says these don't happen. However, I think the hysteria is also created so people can point to an outside source to explain away the evil perpetuated by these people. Satan did it!!!!!

[lolly]

81. Okay, you explained it a little further

I guess what I was thinking is that there may be some sort of projection going on here.

Revenge fantasies of grown-ups who were abused as children summoning up these demonic images?

Or projecting their own lurid fantasies onto actual people, and punishing them for it?

[Solon]

102. Actually it could be much simpler than that...

Unlike Computer Disks, or VHS tapes, we do not hold memories static in our minds, some are locked away, others change and are mutable throughout time. This is especially true as children, unless you are cursed with perfect photographic memory, you wouldn't, in later years, remember half your childhood, usually highlights only. Other memories can be manipulated by unethical therapists and the like so you can "remember" things that didn't happen. This is true of even real abuse, look at the imagery of evil in our lives, Satan personified in our culture, so when children remember real or imagined abuse from younger ages, they may "insert" such imagery into their memories, such as those of lets say an abusive father, adding other people from childhood, such as friends parents in. Its not so much lying as subconsciously trying to reorder the abuse in terms that are more or less palataple to most people. This is worsened when you think of children who remember such things, because there memories are even less reliable than adults, and much more easily manipulated, by either police, or therapists with agendas.

[Tempest]

83. Timeline of the Ritual Abuse Panic

http://members.shaw.ca/imaginarycrimes/timeline.htm

[lolly]

150. Thanks for the info

This was the woman I was thinking about--it was New Jersey, not North Carolina.

What's really disturbing is that, according to this link, a dozen people are still in jail because of this hysteria--some for over 20 years now?

[Megahurtz]

163. Here's info close to home:

This ought to keep you busy for awhile:

http://truthbeknown2000.tripod.com/Truthbeknown2000/id2.html

Shall I keep digging?

Keep in mind that I can only show what is not right now priviledged and confidential information, some of which is bound by law.

[Megahurtz]

127. The McMartin case is a shame

a very botched case. Anyone who is using this case as a reference to defend against claims of child sexual abuse is fooling themselves.

[Tempest]

130. The McMartin case is just one of many

As the cite I provided earlier, and you seem to be ignoring, proved.

[Megahurtz]

153. You cannot PROVE IT!

Don't you understand???

You cannot (supposedly by court standards) prove that it happened, and

you cannot prove it DID NOT happen either!!!

How much louder do I have to speak???

Think about it!!!:think:

[Megahurtz]

164. Oops, TYPO. Meant to say SHAM.

n/t

[CoffeeCat]

60. I don't understand the defensiveness on this issue...

There are millions of child pornography images on the Internet.

Obviously, anyone who is sexually molesting children, taking their pictures, displaying them on the Internet--and possibly profiting--is a very sick person.

Why is it so hard to fathom that sometimes these sick, like-minded people find one another and form groups or "rings"?

In addition--did you read the initial information about this case? One of those involved was a convicted child sex offender who was living with a couple who was all ready under investigation for sexually abusing their own children. I don't see where the disbelief is originating--especially when you have a small cast of pedophiles at the center of the story.

I don't know the merits of this case. I'm not sure how solid the evidence is. However, to dismiss the allegations entirely--based on some highly public cases in which SOME were wrongly accused--is hardly evidence that these crimes didn't happen. There ARE cases of the police questioning children in leading ways. However, do you know how many children NEVER speak of the abuse they sustained during childhood? Most children, who are sexually abused, tell no one.

The millions of child-pornography images that litter the Internet--come from people who lack conscience or morals--so why is it such a stretch to believe that they could be working alone OR together with others?

I don't get the outraged disbelief.

[Ripley]

63. Thank you for "getting it."

I can't understand the outrage either. Gee, just because the MO of pedophiles is one on one, they'd never, never, never get together to orgy. :eyes:

[mordarlar]

75. Of course it is obvious from my posts here i do not understand it either.

[Tempest]

67. History has shown

When you put together child abuse rings and throw in satanic rituals and murder claims, as is this case, it ALWAYS falls apart.


Again I ask, name one case like this which has been successfully prosecuted and had not fallen apart over time.

[CoffeeCat]

80. I hear what you are saying...

You're saying that child abuse rings + satanic rituals + murder claims rarely, if ever, stand up to the scrutiny of the Judicial System.

I agree with you that a few cases, which have been brought to the courts and highly publicized--have been debunked.

However---I don't see any mention of "Satanic Rituals" or "murder claims" as you mentioned--in this particular case.

I see allegations regarding pedophiles who were having sex with each others' children--and that there was an organized, "ring" element to this. This is so awful, that it's difficult to fathom this happening. However, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It appears that a group of pedophiles somehow got together. We know that pedophiles exist. We know that there are many pedophiles out there on the Internet--downloading pictures and communicating with other pedophiles. There have been studies done on convicted pedophiles, in addition to police reports--which demonstrate that HALF of alleged pedophiles possess a large collection of child pornography. Some of it is pictures they've taken, but a majority of their collections are from swapping photos with other pedophiles. Again, it's a logical leap to conclude that these sick people might find one another.

I cannot name one case in which a child-abuse ring with satanic rituals and murder---was prosecuted. However, this case doesn't seem to involve those things.

Organized pedophile and child sex rings--exist. Those people are prosecuted all of the time--for molestation, production of child pornography and for activities involved in molesting and photographing many (sometimes hundreds) of children.

I do understand what you are saying. I share your concern about the extraordinary Satanic/ritualistic claims that have been disproved. However, those stories do not negate the fact that there are millions of child-pornography images on the Internet--and that these children were molested, exploited and traumatized in the production of those photos.

[Ripley]

82. Here is a BBC link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4308025.stm

These people were pimping some of the kids. No satanic rituals or murders reported.

and another link: from CNN on 9.11.01 of all dates: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/09/10/child.exploitation/

[Tempest]

92. Something else research has shown

As another poster pointed out, research show that pedophiles and sexual child abusers do not operate in large groups like this one is claimed to be.

They work alone or in very small groups.


I wonder if there are any cases of large groups of child abusers working together like this one is claimed to have done (holding orgies and the like) which have held up over time.

[Megahurtz]

168. CONVICTION LIST:

http://www.ra-info.org/resources/ra_cases2.shtml

[Minstrel Boy]

79. "the outraged disbelief"

I think people refuse to admit that this, too, is the world. And I can understand why. It's a nightmare. So, facts and testimony be damned - it can't possibly be true!

Thanks for your post.

[CoffeeCat]

85. I do understand the "outraged disbelief"...

...because it is difficult to grasp the amount of child-sexual abuse that happens in this country.

However, remaining silent about it and in denial about these widespread crimes--because that makes us all more comfortable--only helps the child molesters.

Research on child sexual abuse repeatedly finds that 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 7 boys is sexually molested before the age of 18. That's an epidemic. Statistics also demonstrate that most child molestations are perpetrated by a close family member. Those are very staggering numbers and they are very difficult to digest. It's disconcerting. You don't want to believe it when you hear it.

However, the only way to "cure" this problem is to face the reality--so children no longer suffer in silence while perpetrators remain accountable for these crimes.

We are making progress. A few decades ago, there were very few resources for survivors and children had no means of protecting themselves. Today, therapists understand the effect childhood sex abuse can have (PTSD), and programs in schools help children to identify abusive behavior and to speak out. It's a start.

[girl gone mad]

137. Umm...

What research are you looking at that shows that 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 7 boys is molested by the age of 18?

[Tempest]

94. As myself and others have clearly pointed out

Child abuse happens. Ritualistic child abuse happens.

But ritualistic child abuse on such a large scale has never successfully been proven or held up under scrutiny.

[CoffeeCat]

112. But, this wasn't "ritualistic child abuse...as you keep saying!

I just want to point out, that you keep defining the abuse in this article as "ritualistic" sexual abuse.

You are also rationalizing your disbelief in this case--by saying that most cases involving ritualistic, sexual abuse involving Satanic overtones and murder--are never prooven.

This case doesn't involve ANY of those things!

I'm trying to help you understand that.

This case is about A CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER who was living with a couple who were under investigation for molesting their own children. The involvement of other child molesters was discovered through the principals involved---a convicted child molester and the couple who was alleged to have molested their own children.

Again...we know that child molesters exist.

We know that children are sexually abused.

We know that sometimes child molesters communicate with one another. They often swap photographs--as reported by the police who bust these perps and find extensive child pornography collections.

It sounds like a bunch of pedophiles happened to find each other. The convicted perp found the other two--who are being investigated for sex crimes. Why is it so difficult to believe--that others could engage in group activities?

I'm really not following you here.

[Tempest]

118. The word ritual is appropriate

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ritual

The body of ceremonies used by a fraternal organization.

The claim is that there are a number of people working together for a common goal or having common interests. A classic definition of a fraternity.

A ceremonial act or a series of such acts.
The performance of such acts.


>>This case doesn't involve ANY of those things<<

That you know of. We don't know what the prosecution is going to bring up.

As I said earlier, after investigating other large scale child abuse cases, every single one of them had elements of satanic rituals and murder in the case. I'm willing to bet it's brought up in this case.


>>I'm really not following you here<<

I don't know how much clearer I can be.

1) No case with a large number of defendants working together as a group in a small geographical area (as in this case) has ever held up.

2) Research shows that pedophiles and sexual child abusers do not operate in packs. They are loners or with just a few participants and a few victims.

The fact that there are 66 defendants and 45 victims in a small area which has a small number of people living in it raises a big red flag with me.


This case sounds no different than the Stoll/Modall case in Bakersfield, CA. I know family members of the defendants and have read just about everything regarding the case, including the testimony at the trial. That case also fell apart, but only after several of the defendants spent 10-15 years in prison.

[CoffeeCat]

123. I'm getting you now---

...a bit better.

If you knew people who were wrongfully accused, I can understand why you become ticked off and skeptical upon hearing a similar story.

I do understand those feelings.

However, your feelings have nothing to do with this case. Let's say I knew family members who were victimized by a large child-sex ring. I'd have strong feelings about perpetrators and my immediate reaction would be, "Fry the suckers!" My strong feelings that I bring into this issue--would have nothing to do with the guilt or innocence of the people accused of these crimes.

Furthermore, you are correct that most pedophiles operate alone or in small groups. However, larger groups are not unheard of. There are large groups of pedophiles who congregate on the Internet--swapping child pornography. We know that it's certainly possible for several pedophiles to find each other, in real life.

I think we can all agree that the facts are not in on this case. We can also all acknoledge that, in theh past, innocent people have been hurt by false allegations. We can all agree that many children have been exploited and traumatized by sexual abuse--namely, child pornography, organized child sex rings, child trafficking and incest. However, at this point, we just don't know how this situation will shake out.

It seems to me that "Fry the suckers!!" and "These people probably did nothing wrong!" are two sides of the same flawed-logic coin--which is riddled with biased opinion.

If the police are charging people--who have been previously convicted of child sexual abuse and who have been suspected of child sexual abuse--I think there is a presumption that there was reason to believe that something bad was going on.

[Tempest]

128. It's not just the Stoll/Modall case

It's the McMartin case, it's the Friedman case, it's the Little Rascal's case, etc.


>>There are large groups of pedophiles who congregate on the Internet--swapping child pornography<<

Which is completely irrelevant to this case.

This case is about a large group of people living in a small geographical area and physically passing around children. Those cases never hold up.


>>If the police are charging people--who have been previously convicted of child sexual abuse and who have been suspected of child sexual abuse--I think there is a presumption that there was reason to believe that something bad was going on.<<

There is also a big persumption the police will use flimsy excuses and little actual evidence in order to make an arrest under those circumstances.

[girl gone mad]

138. This doesn't raise any suspicions in your mind:

Nearly all the defendants were living on welfare benefits.

"Parents of one kid sold her for a new car tyre," said lawyer Philippe Cosnard, quoted by the AFP news agency. Other children were allegedly bartered for small sums of money, food or cigarettes.

A girl of 10 was allegedly raped by more than 30 adults.

?

1. From the sound of it, these people are all too poor to afford good defense attorneys.

2. You really believe parents are going to be willing to pimp their own children out for cigarettes or a new car tire? And not just one parent, but dozens of them?

3. These thirty-some parents willing to pimp their children out for small sums of money all happen to live in the same small town.


This sounds suspiciously like what happened in Texas, only substitute a child prostitution/pedophile ring for a drug dealer/user ring.

Maybe I'm too dumb to see the real evil in average people. I know pedophiles exist, and organized criminals make money selling children for sex. I know about NAMBLA and sex tourism. But somehow I cannot fathom a town in France where dozens of parents are willing to let sadistic pedophiles rape their children, ages 6 months to 14 years old, for packs of cigarettes. And I just can't imagine that it could go on for 3 full years with not one person or child coming forward.

Either I'm really naive, or I have no imagination. I'm not saying I think all of these people are innocent, just that it probably didn't go down the way prosecutors claim it did.

[mordarlar]

78. Could you please tell me if THIS article mentions Satanic rituals or...

murders. I cannot access the whole article. Thank you.

[Tempest]

95. No, it doesn't

But not all the evidence and accusations have been reported.


Almost always in cases with this number of defendants, satanic rituals and murder is brought up or talked about in interviews with the children.

[CoffeeCat]

114. But you can't dismiss the validity of these allegations...

...based on what MIGHT be brought up. Correct?

So far--all we know is that a convicted pedophile was living with a couple that was being investigated for molesting their own children. From there, the police unearthed a loosely organized ring of people who were sexually abusing children.

No one has said anything about Satan, rituals, goat's blood, etc.

You're the only one!

So....are you saying that you would believe that a child sex ring existed, if no evidence of Satanic/murder/ritualistic details is found?

You would believe it if this was just your garden-variety pedophile ring? We know that pedophile rings exist. There's an impressive (but very hard to read) body of research about convicted pedophiles, Transitional Child Sex Rings, Syndicated Sex Rings and child sex abuse.

I'm trying to figure out why you're so insistent that these molestation allegations are false--when one of the accused is a convicted child molester and two others were the subjects of an ongoing child-molestation investigation.

[Bridget Burke]

116. I was not INSISTING the allegations are false.

But I did mention that the case was not complete.

Sorry--I don't spend my time searching the net for kiddie porn. Correction: "Investigating child abuse."

[CoffeeCat]

119. I think we all understand that the case is incomplete...

..which is why I'm baffled that someone would--right out of the gate--move to defend these people--one of whom is a CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER and the other two--WHO WERE PART OF AN ONGOING CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE INVESTIGATION.

I'm not understanding the knee-jerk reaction. Usually, when someone reads that child sex abuse happens--their immediate reaction is not to defend the perps--as you said, when "the case was not complete."

I don't know what this comment of yours means:
"Sorry--I don't spend my time searching the net for kiddie porn. Correction: "Investigating child abuse."

None of my responses was directed at you. So, I'm unclear what your remark meant. I apologize if I've missed something.

My remarks about the pedophile research, were in response to the poster who seems to be doubting that organized child-sex rings exist. I was pointing out the large amount of research that exists on convicted child molesters and child-porn-ring operators. I was hoping it would help him to see that, although behaviors like this are difficult to imagine--this stuff does happen.

[Tempest]

132. You can't be talking about me

Show me where I've defended these people.

Nor have I claimed organized child-sex rings don't exist.


What I am claiming, and there are cases to back me up, is that cases like this don't hold up.


Stop with the strawmen already.

[retnavyliberal]

139. so you say there are organized child sex rings,

just none of them have ever been busted??????

[Megahurtz]

165. This may help you to understand why:

http://www.voxfux.com/features/cia_child_sex.html

[Tempest]

131. Unlike some here, I'm not going to convict them before the trial

I'm using past experience with other cases like this to draw my conclusions.

And past cases like this have never held up.


I've yet to find one case like this where satanic rituals and murder testimony was not brought up. Just because there's nothing in the article doesn't mean it won't be. We're not getting all the facts in a short article.


I'm not willing to hang them before the facts are in.

[Megahurtz]

166. Here are some facts, government ties:

Not about the particular case you are describing, (I do not have enough facts to make a judgement on that case) but this will show you why the general consensus is vehement denial of these cases, in AND out of the courtroom.

This link is much more detailed than the one I posted above.

Dig deep and have fun!!!:argh:

:evilgrin:http://www.the7thfire.com/child_sexual_abuse/child_sexual_abuse_and_freemasonry_satanism_illuminati.htm

[kilgore65]

108. WTF is up with these people?

I'm sorry, but anyone who molests a child deserves the worst punishment imaginable...

[Blue_Tires]

141. man...i wish i didn't read that

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[roscoeroscoe]

154. two cents here, excuse me...

can i refer you to 'wounded innocents' by richard wexler, an excellent book detailing the efforts to build up cases by overzealous prosecutors and social workers.
also, as far as children being manipulated into false testimony, check out the first essay in 'you are being lied to' from disinformation, edited by russ kick. it's very easy to get many children or grown ups to change beliefs or testimony, many classic experiments have been done to prove this point.
having been falsely accused by my ex-wife and her crazy social worker, as a tactic in a child custody situation, i know how crazy this stuff can go, even without any proof. it's tragic. and, on the other hand, when i was a worker at a children's home, one of the boys on the wing i worked on had been pimped out by his own father. absolutely disgusting.

[jdj]

170. please weigh the fact that a tragically low number of these

cases are even reported.

so any amount of so-called hysteria probably undershoots the amount of real abuse going on anyway.

[Megahurtz]

171. You bet they're not reported!

Do you know why? All you have to do is look at some of the posts that come up on this thread.

This is how some people generally react on this subject.
Victims, especially children get discounted, silenced, stifled, threatened!

Some people are so hell bent on debunking child sexual abuse (make you wonder why they have such a vested interest? hmmmmmm:freak:)So then most of the victims give up in silence. They already feel burnt out.

I think people are starting to wise up to the "hoax" and "hysteria" bullshit.

I for one am not fooled.
Read my other posts for some eye opening links on the subject.

[girl gone mad]

172. So once again a poster decides to imply that..

Anyone who is skeptical of the prosecutor's claims is a pedophile or a child abuser.

Absolutely disgusting.

[emad]

156. Today's BBC News update:Child sex trial opens in France

Snip:

"Parents of one kid sold her for a new car tyre," said lawyer Philippe Cosnard, quoted by the AFP news agency. Other children were allegedly bartered for small sums of money, food or cigarettes.

A girl of 10 was allegedly raped by more than 30 adults.

Prosecutors say more than half of the accused have admitted their guilt.

But the prosecution hopes to avoid any repetition of the errors that plagued a previous high-profile paedophile trial - the Outreau case in northern France last year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4313747.stm

[kilgore65]

173. In analyzing this case...

it may be helpful to recognize that generally, French people generally have a more 'serious' and 'philosopical' demeanor than Americans - after all, philosophy is a required subject in the high schools. Trivialities like the Michael Jackson trial receive much more limited discussion in the French media and in society in general. Therefore when something of this magnitude comes along, it is serious...

That said, it appears to me that this case has some very real basis, to wit, from the BBC article...

"The evidence being presented in court suggests a cycle of abuse down the generations, our correspondent says.

The couple at the centre of the trial were themselves both sexually abused as children.

They in turn allegedly raped and abused their own children, and allowed family members, neighbours and friends to do the same.

Almost all the defendants come from deeply deprived backgrounds; few have jobs or training. Some are illiterate and almost all lived in the same rundown council estate on welfare benefits."