Activists fight for electric cars. (MSNBC)

[barbaraann]

Enthusiasts mount California vigil to save EV1
By Greg Schneider and Kimberly Edds
Updated: 1:20 a.m. ET March 10, 2005

The morning is too chilly for her flirty purple skirt and pink top, so former "Baywatch" actress Alexandra Paul wraps her bare legs in a fleece blanket and settles down for a long sidewalk vigil in Burbank, Calif. Passersby on scooters toot their horns, and a security guard smiles and waves as he walks by. Both he and the actress are there for the same reason: to keep an eye on a parking lot full of colorful, two-door cars behind a nondescript suburban office building.

Those cars are rarities, the last surviving batch of rechargeable electric coupes built by General Motors Corp. in the late 1990s. Paul and a band of homemakers, people with desk jobs, engineers, Hollywood activists and car enthusiasts are 23 days into a round-the-clock vigil aimed at keeping GM from destroying the cars.

What's at stake, they say, is no less than the future of automotive technology, a practical solution for driving fast and fun with no direct pollution whatsoever. GM agrees that the car in question, called the EV1, was a rousing feat of engineering that could go from zero to 60 miles per hour in under eight seconds with no harmful emissions. The market just wasn't big enough, the company says, for a car that traveled 140 miles or less on a charge before you had to plug it in like a toaster.
...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7143333/

I wonder if Arnold has a position on this?

[shoelace414]

1. Self fulfulling prophecy

"People want only big cars, so we only make big cars"

people bu big cars because IT'S ALL YOU MAKE

[natrat]

3. i tell yas , electric cars (hybrids) will be the next wave

the land of the rising sun has once again beaten detroit's ass with the popular prius and the next round involves hybrid suvs for 2006. Those will go mainstream. Mark my words i tell ya. Detroit ,gm in particular, will loose , just ike the 70s.

[physioex]

7. With rising prices...

I think Hybrids will do well and the Japanese seem to be ahead. The downside to the Hybrids is that they are more mechanically complex than their gasoline counter parts, and the upfront costs.

[MADem]

20. The Germans aren't asleep behind the bush in the garden, either

They're doing some interesting alternative work as well. I saw a swell Discovery program, with Alan Alda gleefully whipping around the track in one of those alternative vehicles, a while back...looked very promising!

[physioex]

28. Yes I saw that show...

I think it was in Iceland. But they have plenty of geothermal energy, and they were using Hydrogen electorlyzed from water through geothermal energy.

[MADem]

33. California is where most of the driving happened, apparently

...though I could've sworn he was tooling around Germany at one point. Here's a blurb about the show: http://www.wviz.org/features/0817saf_future_car.asp

...and ain't this "high end" car interesting: http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_home.htm

Get the rich to buy them, and perhaps they'll pee down, er, trickle down, the technology to us poor folk....

Hell, we gotta do something. Gas will go to three bucks a gallon eventually, and probably sooner than we think!

[physioex]

34. Ohhh man....

Not looking forward to $3 this coming summer. I drive an economy four cylinder and it's going to hurt. I can laugh the schmucks who will have to cough up $90+ to fill up their SUVs....LOL

[Coastie for Truth]

4. I lived in the Great Lakes State

when Chrysler went Belly Up -- and AMC really did go belly up-- and two unemployed auto workers killed Vincent Chin (and walked) and the Macomb County "Reagan Democrats" did vote for Reagan. And they tried to recall my Senator, Jack Faxon, because his wife drove a Volve.

And we took the kids to the former Chevie plant was an an indoor theme park in Flint.

And we saw Roger and Me and Tucker: The Man and His Dream as a double feature at a "Mom and Pop" neighborhood theater in Ferndale MI.

They never learn -- and GM is just about the worst.

--And I drive a Prius.

[trogdor]

9. Their small cars suck.

They should go talk to some Honda and Toyota dealers and ask them how Americans feel about small cars.

American small cars are so half-heartedly engineered and put together, if they last as long as the payment book before exploding, dissolving, or just dying on the side of the road, you're doing REALLY good.

Either that, or they get their subsidiaries overseas to build them and then slap a Chevy or Ford badge on them. Even then, you don't get Toyota quality; you get Kia or Suzuki - the bottom of the barrel.

The Big Two And A Half absolutely HATE small cars. They make WAY more money on SUV's, so as long as they can sell just enough of them to make up for conceding the small car market to Honda and Toyota, that's what they'll do, even if they have to whine and cry to the government they otherwise profess to despise to do it.

So buy Japanese - for America.

[Coastie for Truth]

15. That is their business model

I had three Corvairs (where they completely screwed up a simple scale up of the classic Bug), and two Cavaliers (equally screwed up), and rented American sub-compacts whenever I traveled (Chevettes, Falcons, etc.)

I have had nothing but Toyota's and Chevy bow-tied Toyotas (Prism's and Vibe's from the Fremont NUMMI plant) for twenty years -- will never go back to American cars.

[hatrack]

19. One of my favorite Detroit faux arguments:

"The Japanese lose money on every hybrid they sell!"

Yeah, big deal. Detroit loses money on every CAR they sell. Their only profit center for the past ten years has been trucks and SUVs. :eyes:

[ixion]

2. flying cars

I was promised flying cars. :+

[zipplewrath]

5. You don't want them

"I was promised flying cars"

   You don't want them.  Picture the LA freeway during rush
hour.  Now switch to 3 dimensions.  

[skids]

6. Or if you have a limited imagination...

Watch the movie "5th element."

[seriousstan]

8. Well, if your going to bring movie "facts" into the arguement,

I would think the Jetsons would be a better example of the plausability.

[Chrisduhfur]

43. For real?

I always wanted a robot.

[megatherium]

12. but accidents wouldn't block traffic. nt

[durablend]

41. Nah, they'd just fall onto your house...

Good tradeoff...

:eyes:

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. Oooh! Now that's scary! n/t

[BiggJawn]

10. 140 miles isn't "enough"?

So I could get 2 day's commute in between re-charges? That's PLENTY. the majority of my driving is on the order of 35 miles a day. For trips to Chicago or Indy, of course I could see having a gas buggy. 90% of my driving is well within the max range of this car.

I'll tell you real reason GM says there's no market for the EV1....

Because TinMan Cheney said there isn't.

[Wells]

11. EV1 and Hybrids crushed because of battery power..

Tests on state of the art batteries, NiMh in Toyota Rav4 indicate useful lives exceeding 100,000, possibly 150,000 miles.

These batteries can be recharged off the utility grid or even rooftop solar. Thus, the real reason Hydrogen is touted as the ultimate fuel, is because hydrogen cannot be generated and stored at the home-based level, as can hybrid and pure electric cars. Hydrogen maintains corporate control. Hybrids and their batteries are truly egalitarian power to the people.

Moreover, the limited driving range that battery power offers creates an economic incentive to build and patronize local economies. -- less driving to the distant WalMart, the distant jobsites, the distant institutional services whose costs rise as they must build parking infrastructure.

The Big 3 oppose any car that will be used less.

[zipplewrath]

14. Hybrids will lead to better batteries

   The hybrids will lead to desires for better batteries. 
Especially if people figure out how far they can go before the
motor needing to kick in.  Ultimately, you could have a car
that really didn't need the additional motor.  Right now
though, good batteries cost more than the car.

[Coastie for Truth]

16. EV1 was lead acid, EV2 and the hybrids are Ni-hydride.

[hughee99]

17. I'm sure that GM would be happy to sell these cars

rather than destroy them. If there really is a market for the EV1, hopefully people will go on down to the lot and buy one of them. Shouldn't that be the real goal here? A car that is just sitting on the lot isn't doing the environment any good. It's only when it replaces someone's standard car that it makes an "impact".

[Coastie for Truth]

21. I tried when they took them off of lease

so I was offering to BUY a used, previously leased EV1. They said "Not for Sale."

[hughee99]

23. Seriously?

That's just asinine! I'm no business expert, but I have to imagine that it's more profitable to sell a car than pay to destroy it. Maybe this is why their company is having "financial trouble"?

[tinanator]

44. not only that they reneged on prior agreements to sell to testers

this goes to the Ford ELectric Rangers or whatever that they screwed over their test drivers by going back on a promise.

[BiggJawn]

25. No they wouldn't.

I'm sure their lawyers told them all kinds of bullshit like they'd have to make spare parts for 10 years by Law (actually, that's true, but I don't know if that would apply to a "Factory Custom" jobby like this) and scared them with LIABILITY and other shit.

Remember what Chrysler did to their small fleet of Gas Turbine cars? When the "experiment" was over, they were crushed.

Bet they shred them.

[hughee99]

27. I wasn't aware of these regulations.

How many are on the road now? Do they half to support the parts for 10 years from the day of sale or from the release of the model type? Just curious.

[fortyfeetunder]

35. Apparently they are making money by destroying them

GM is taking the cars off to be destroyed and getting $$ for each car scrapped...just heard on Air America....

(this sounds almost too stupid to be true)

[hughee99]

39. Are they getting more $$ for the cars

then they would be able to sell them for? Just curious.

[Massacure]

13. Electric cars have a ways to go with battery improvement

However higher CAFE standards and hybridization can bridge the gap considerably.

[AndyTiedye]

18. Meanwhile Ford is Building Hybrid SUVs

[Coastie for Truth]

22. Altho this is NOT the Israel/Palestine Forum

the Ford hybrid shows what Palestinian-American and Iraqi-American engineers can do. Just as good as Japanese engineers in Nagoya Japan.

Engineers are engineers. Give us a real challenge -- and we'll solve it.

[NickB79]

26. Ford uses Toyota's hybrid technology

There is NOTHING new about Ford's hybrids; they simply license out the rights to use Toyota's hybrid engines.

[Coastie for Truth]

30. Same paradigm as Toyota's HEV

The Ford product is in the same paradigm in that electric motors do actually provide some of the traction some of the time, and the shift points between IC and EV are the same as Toyota's but different from Honda's. GM's is a whole different kettle of fish.

Complete discussion of the similarities and differences in IEEE Spectrum -- repeated about every year in a Fall issue (I don't have a link -- but it is incredibly boooooring reading)

[trekbiker]

24. GM is right about the EV market...

EV was never practical from the very beginning. Unless a very big breakthru in battery technology happens EV will never be practical other than short inner city type driving. Just like mass transit is simply not practical for the majority of Americans, we drive long distances and we like our cars. There are other big hurdles for EV to overcome in addition to the technology not being there. Existing Electric Utility infrastructure would not be able to handle the charge load requirements if every garage (or even half the garages) housed an electric vehicle (I'm an electric power engineer for a large utility so I know a little bit about this). The costs to upgrade existing utility infrastructure would be astronomical and would be added to the utility rate base and shouldered by rate payers. Electric charging stations similar to existing gas stations would not be practical due to long charge time requirements. So.... EV was dead from day one and anyone familiar with electric engineering and infrastructure understood this.

BUT... the Japanese with thier gas/electric hybrid technology and the Euros with thier clean diesel technology see the near future and are way ahead. I suspect the two technologies will marry and a clean diesel/electric hybrid in the 70-80 mpg range with adequate performance and range will soon be here. Diesel infrastructure (gas stations) is rapidly improving in America and we will soon have low sulfer diesel. I see the green pump handles everywhere now.

that is the future and as usual our big three car companies are way behind the curve...

[sidpleasant]

31. The other point that EV enthusiasts overlooked was ...

... where is all the extra power to recharge electric cars going to come from? There's not a lot of extra capacity in the existing generation and distribution system. New power plants would have to be built and it's likely that they'd be powered by coal or natural gas. In effect we'd be trading decreased emissions from cars for increased emissions from power plants.

[rfkrfk]

29. since when, is the US, the only country in the world ?

Here is what I think happened.
California demands really really low pollution cars.
Honda and GM respond, with zero gas tax, zero tailpipe pollution cars.
California does not like that.
...time passes...
Laws change, cars get crushed.

What I don't get, is why there is no serious
effort in some non-US type country to build electric cars.
The cars themselves, are nothing special.
The batteries, well, one way or the other, could be had.
This would seem ideal, for congested,
smog choked European cities, amougst other places.

[palme]

32. Uproar in Norway

It caused an uproar in Norway, when our only electric car manufacturer was bought up by Ford, only for Ford to close down the factory immediately. Shameless.

Hei,

Palme.

[BunnyPuncher]

36. Kind of an off topic question... sort of...

I'll be in the market soon to replace my 1992 Acura Integra (I call it the the Crapura - but it was a good car a few years ago). I'm a big dude - 6'1 225lbs, and I'm thinking about going hybrid on the replacement vehicle. I've found in my day that most "compact" cars are.. er... well... compact... painfully so (tercels, chevette, accents etc.) So basically my question is... Any of you all have any recommendations on which (or any) of the new hybrid cars will accommodate a man of long limb and ample buttocks? :cry:

Cheers.

(Edited for speillung)

[evworldeditor]

37. More At Stake Here Than A Handful of EV1s

Just before flying home from LA, I spent two hours at the EV1 vigil, and if you think this debate is just about a handful of obsolete electric cars, then you haven't a clue. At issue here are much larger issues than the 77 Generation II EV1s (which have either advanced Panasonic lead-acid batteries or NiMH).

Everyone of the 80+ people who have pledged to pay nearly $25,000 for each car, are willing to release GM for all liability, just as the folks who got Ford to back down on crushing the Ranger EVs did. They also know that they are buying cars with will eventually be curiosity pieces because there will be no replacement parts and many of the cars will end up being cannibalized to keep others running.

This isn't about status but about principle. GM is not being truthful when they say there was no market for the cars. There were waiting lists, but GM decided -- and I am being charitable here -- that there was no future in these cars. Why? Probably any number of factors. I've heard all sort of reasons, none of which alone would have been the death knell to the program.

No charging infrastructure? PG&E and SCE and SMUD all went out of their way to fund hundreds of chargers all over the LA and Bay Area.

Recharge took too long? Everyone recharged at night at special off peak rates and woke up with a full-charge every morning that cost them something like a penny or so a mile.

Not enough range? Nearly everyone who had the EV1, even the Generation One model with miserable Delphi lead-acid batteries that provided only 60-80 miles, said it was adequate for 85% of their daily travel needs.

To be fair to GM, they did try their best to offer top notch service and support for a while. Did they give up too early on the car? Most EV1 owners I've spoken to think so, especially with gasoline headed to $2.50 a gallon this summer, if not higher.

You might like to read my blog on the vigil rally I attended to get a little better perspective on what's at stake here.

http://www.evworld.com/general.cfm?section=directory&page=blog


Bill Moore
Editor In Chief
EVWORLD.COM

[barbaraann]

38. Hi, Bill!

Thanks for the great info and it's really cool that you were at the vigil. I'll check out your blog. :-)

[Nile]

40. Are they also going to fight for nuke plants to charge their cars?

They should think before they get what they wish for.

[tinanator]

45. thinkings good

but some people thought otherwise and use photovoltaics to run their electric car. One tester spent $17 over three years in operating costs for his ride. To repair a leaking tire.

[Frederik]

42. Wow!

zero to sixty in 8 seconds? I tell ya, when they start making electric cars that are actually fast & fun, this ought to explode. In fact, it should explode right now. For people who live in urban areas, it's no big deal that you have to recharge every 140 miles. Just plug it in at night, what's the problem? Why the f#*! aren't they throwing billions of dollars into this?

Is it in any way possible that the car company bigwigs have had a little chat with their oil company golf partners? Nah, things like that don't happen.