Frist pledges to protect Boy Scouts

[Rose Siding]

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist yesterday vowed to pass legislation this year to protect the Boy Scouts of America from attacks by liberal groups challenging federal support for the Scouts because the organization administers a religious oath.
...
The bill says no federal law, directive, rule, instruction or order should limit any federal agency from providing support to the Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, including meetings held on federal property.

The legislation is a direct response to an ongoing lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union that says federal support of the group, including about $2 million annually for the National Scout Jamboree, violates the Constitution's provision mandating separation of church and state.
...
In introducing the bill, Mr. Frist was flanked by several senators, including a few Democrats. Sen. Ben Nelson, Nebraska Democrat, said his time as a Boy Scout was "probably one of the single most important parts of my youth" and that the bill is "certainly in the best interest of our young people."
Sen. Bill Nelson, Florida Democrat, said military personnel who are Scout leaders often inspire the boys to join the service.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050316-110725-1834r.htm

[shoelace414]

1. BSA can just remove the religious test.

[BlueEyedSon]

3. Never happen.

[pres2032]

2. as a former scout,

that's the best thing Frist has done.

[BlueEyedSon]

4. Nope, discriminating on the basis of religion and taking fed $$

is unconstitutional.

[pres2032]

6. no, religion isn't a requirement for joining

there were plenty of guys in my troop who were anything but religious and there were given absolutely no trouble for it.

[BlueEyedSon]

10. They kicked out an avowed atheist. That is their policy. (see story)

Maybe the policy is enforced less strictly in some troops, or maybe it's "don't ask, don't tell."

http://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?ID=21204

Freedom of religion means being able to be "free of religion", without penalties as well.

[pres2032]

11. or maybe that's just a local thing there

there was nothing of the sort ever talked about here.

[Rose Siding]

14. Did they wave the oath and laws?

Scout Oath (or Promise)
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country.....

snip>
REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-503a.html

Scouting is fine for those who chose it, but for it to be funded by the Feds is unconstitutional.

[BlueEyedSon]

19. Thx for the verbatim facts, Rose. nt

[jdj]

101. so if you are a gay fundie they shouldn't have any problem, right?

/sarcasm off/

[StuckinKS]

34. BSA

is one of the most discriminatory organizations around. It exists in many cases as the de facto "young mens association" for many denominations, Mormon specifically. It might be good for my three young sons to enjoy all the great things that scouting offers, but as a gay man and atheist, I am unable to serve as their scout master.

As others have said, if they want federal funds and facilities, drop the religion requirement. Otherwise, just use private funds and facilities. It's easy enough.

[ast_liberal2008]

51. story says they don't receive fed $

The story says that the Boy Scouts say they don't receive federal funding. Frist says that they do.That means that the Boy Scouts are lying. If they receive fed $'s they can't discriminate.

[Walt Starr]

16. Hell, now SPECIFIC religion is a requirement

Wiccans are not welcome in the Boy Scouts by policy now!

[Igel]

43. Which would that be?

Church of God 7th Day? Episcopal? Twelver Shi'ism? Reformed Judaism?

Hmmm ... all of them sound OK.

[Xithras]

52. Because "wiccan" is too nebulous.

The Scout requirement to honor God is based upon the belief that we have a duty to a higher being. Since there are wiccan atheists, it's not really a "religion" according to their definition.

FWIW, there's a Buddhist and a Muslim in my sons Scout pack, and it's made very clear that "God" doesn't refer to a specific God but the one each of us individually believes in. The Scouts don't require a specific religious belief, they just require that you have one.

[pelagius]

62. That's not exactly right

The BSA did not accept a proposal for a "religious emblem" for Wiccan Scouts to earn because the group proposing it did not represent a plurality of US Wiccans. There are a certain number of congregations that must be under the banner of an organization before it is eligible to sponsor a religious emblem award. It's not a huge number (under 100, if I recall), but the proposing group fell way, way short of that.

There are Wiccans in Scouting. I know this because a den leader in our Cub Scout pack is a practicing Wiccan, as are, I assume, her kids.

on edit: spellcheck corrections

[gauguin57]

82. A Plurality of Wiccans

sounds like a GREAT name for a band!

[Xithras]

91. Interesting. I'll have to show that to my sons Scoutmaster

They were having a discussion about how to handle Wiccan boys recently, and seemed to be under the impression that Wicca wasn't a recognized religion by the BSA (like the Unitarian Universalists).

[pelagius]

63. Can you provide a cite, please? n/t

[iam]

24. My son

was a scout for a few years when he was young. In order to move on to the next level he had to sign a loyalty oath to god as well as to the truth and country. Since loyalty to god is irrational and loyalty to truth and country are paramount, we were forced to quit or lie. We chose not to lie. The scouts are a religious organization where chants to obey god are ritual.

[AngryOldDem]

30. News to me

<<<The scouts are a religious organization where chants to obey god are ritual.>>>

Been to a lot of Scout events, and the only mention I hear of God is when it's said as part of the oath. It's one line, as part of a sentence. It's not a "chant," at least as I define the word.

[jmowreader]

70. I was in Cub Scouts

Cub Scouts is the feeder organization for Boy Scouts.

They have four levels--Bobcat for 7 year olds, Wolf for 8, Bear for 9 and Webelos for 10. (Webelos means "We Be Loyal Scouts" so our den leader always got on us for calling one of the members a Webelo.) The Cub Scout pack in St. Maries didn't want to get into the Bobcat thing, so they started at Wolf. And our den was operated by the Elks Club, which is only peripherally religious--you may join if you believe in a Supreme Being, but thinking back to some of those guys, the Supreme Being they all seemed to worship most was Demon Rum.

Anyway, to earn your Wolf or Bear rank, you did twelve labors. Number eleven was "observe your faith as it is practiced in your home." We didn't practice or observe faith in our home, so my mom signed off on that one real quick. Fortunately they didn't ask what we did to get this signed off..."we don't practice faith in our house, so I Did Nothing."

In Webelos I remember having to buy a little Webelos badge to hold the fifteen little pins you earned on your way to the Order of the Arrow, which was the highest award in Cubs.

[TankLV]

65. As a Catholic in my youth, we belonged to a Catholic troop based out of a

local Lutheran Church basement with many other faiths included. I remember every Saturday and Sunday when the different troops and even when our own troop got together by itself, and the different faiths could elect to go off to the service of their choice OR NOT - many stayed behind. But because my father was also a scout master, we attended church.

The reason I quit one merit badge shy of Eagle was their insistanct of becoming a para-military organization and playing war games when many of my older friends were fighting and dying in a real war in Vietnam - that was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

But until then, it still was one of my best childhood experiences and I wouldn't have missed it for anything - I really enjoyed all the camping and canoeing and visiting all the beautiful places in the US and Canada - particularly remember portaging thru the northern Ontario lakes - what a blast!

The religious thing wasn't really an issue for me - mainly because I was part of the "majority" group.

But I can also understand everyone's concerns against supporting religious organizations even remotely - and I support those efforts.

If these organizations want to be overtly religious, them let them do it on their own dime. Now, in my time, I don't remember a single instance where anything other than by our own dime did we "do our thing" - Either our troop and the others in the Niagara Frontier council got by by their own, without any funding from any other source except donations from INDIVIDUALS, or we did without. We certainly never received any grants from any government source.

[retnavyliberal]

97. When I was a scout....

I do not remember "signing" any oaths to advance. I did say the scout law and oath. Some others skipped some lines of them. But I am sorry that "we" were forced to quit or lie. Did "we" do all the work for the merit badges and did "we" go on all the camp outs? One of the things scouting instilled in me was learn all I could and decide what beliefs that I held. Seems not everyone gets that chance.

IMHO there is a lot good with Scouting. Nothing is perfect. Thousands of troops nation wide, thousands of leaders, all with different belief systems. I am sure there are going to be ideological issues from time to time, but should we throw away the baby with the bath water?

I wonder how many scouts have gone through scouting over the years to get the one or two miscarriages of Justice that have made the news.

[Jokerman]

48. I was forced out of the scouts for religious reasons.

First hand experience here.

The fundies that ran my local troop tried to pressure me into going to their church. When they found out I didn't attend church at all, they made it very clear that I was no longer welcome in their troop.

[Toots]

78. What is the scout law?

What does reverent mean anyway?

[KurtNYC]

21. My scout troop met in a church basement

Didn't seem like the worst thing in the world. I can't imagine that Frist thinks churches should be empty 6 days out of the week. More likely he is grandstanding for its own sake.

It was also the gayest organization I have ever been in.

[Arkana]

22. Ditto

I hated the Scouts, though...I thought it was pointless and rather stupid.

[KurtNYC]

25. Just to be clear -

I meant "gay" as in two guys in one sleeping bag. "let's play squirrels" -- stuff like that.

[Arkana]

28. LOL

Thanks for the clarification, but that rang true for the troop I was in too. Lots of weird shit going on there.

[HockeyMom]

26. Surprised

When my daughter was in Brownies and we couldn't get the school for meetings (all booked up), they said we could use the church basement a short distance away. No, the kids didn't mind, but us mothers felt VERY UNCOMFORTABLE going there. It was an Episcopalian Church. The Catholics felt uncomfortable, the Jews were horrified, and the Atheist mother wouldn't even set foot in it. We discussed it and it was agreed it would be better for all concerned to not go there. One mother volunteered her home as a meeting place. Better for everyone.

[coffeenap]

29. I am surprised that parents were that worried--

it is just space to use. Besides, does it hurt to be exposed to the symbols and architecture of somone else's religion? My 1/2 Jewish Brownie troop met in a church in the 1960's--my parents thought it was a good idea because they let us do all the messy crafts there instead of at home!:)

[mutus_frutex]

46. My group (back home in Uruguay) used to meet in a catholic school

It came with MANY strings attached. We had to participate in processions and help during some religious celebrations. Although we avoided it as much as we could, when the two national associations (one catholic, one multidenominational but quasi-secular) merged, things got really ugly. They wanted to ensure that we became a denominational group (i.e. only accept catholics). Really crappy stuff. That is when I left.

[lolly]

98. FWIW

I issue this reminder whenever people bring up Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts on the board, so here it is again:

Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are two entirely different organizations.

Different leadership, different hierarchy, different rules.

Unlike BSA, GSUSA is NOT an official arm of any religion.

Now--it's still cookie season, so go buy some cookies!

[fujiyama]

103. Mmmmmm! Girl Scout cookies...

Those are great (I love those cocunut things and those thin mints aren't bad either).

One good thing about the GS is that I've heard they don't discriminate against gays and lesbians either.

[mutus_frutex]

44. As a "former" scout

I hope they bury them.

First let me say that you are never a "former" scout. Once a scout, always a scout.

Second, discrimination on both religious and gender/sexual orientation grounds are completely against the spirit of the principles of the Movement. The retention of outdated victorian principles will doom the scout movement.

Finally, I'm a scout that left when the rules were changed regarding religious faith. As an atheist/agnostic I could not continue being a part of the movement because it went against my secularism.

[donheld]

61. I respectfully disagree

Between forcing religon on members and their strongly anti-gay rules i cannot agree.

[Walt Starr]

5. Evil motherfucker is instutionalizing religion joining with state

The Boy Scouts chose to become a private orgnaization with the right to discriminate for relgious reasons and now they want to be treated like a public organization and receive public funding!

[Igel]

45. They were private from the beginning.

But they're a public service organization.

And in my experience the only time discrimination against any religion, atheism or sexual orientation has arisen is when people pushed the point.

I refused the say "God" in the oath for years; the only time it became an issue is when a kid joined that loudly stated right up front that he absolutely, positively, dogmatically refused to say "God", and pushed to have it dropped at in our troop. He was told not to say it, but apparently having other people say "God" in his presence so offended his ever-so-delicate irreligious sensibilities that he didn't last long. After he left, nobody cared if I said it or not (and, after I explained why I refused to say it they let me off the hook--but they said if this intolerant creep found out and made an issue of it, they'd have to revisit the issue).

[Chipper Chat]

7. It's just another veiled attack on Gays.

Why doesn't he just come out of the closet? How long can one continue to hide their own constitution by being an ultra-homophobe. It doesnt work with those who know.

[coffeenap]

8. GIRL SCOUTS DO NOT DISCRIMINATE!!!

Frist cannot equate them--there is complete tolerance built in to the Girl Scout establishment. (including prohibiting activities on Muslim holidays, Hindu holidays, etc.) Actually, it goes beyond tolerance--they embrace "ALL GIRLS EVERYWHERE".

[JerseygirlCT]

18. I thought that was a pretty nasty trick, too

Pull the GSA into this, when they absolutely no not discriminate.

[noonwitch]

31. Girl Scouts is a great organization

I was a scout from 4th to 7th grade. I had been a Blue Bird before that, but we didn't have a CFG troop, so I joined GSA.

Incidentally, for all the homophobes out there, I had a gay troop leader in cadet scouts, in 7th grade. She did not discuss her sexuality with us, but we all knew she was gay because she was our neighbor. We even went camping with her, and had a lot of fun, because she was a young woman in her 20s and up for the challenges presented by supervising a bunch of 13 year old girls in the great outdoors. I'd like to think that if one of us had been struggling with her sexual orientation, Diane would have been a very good person to talk to, especially in a religiously conservative community like Grand Rapids, MI.

Our troops always met in a church basement, too. It was a big church that had plenty of room for us to work with when we had major events, like banquets and ceremonies. If my church had a troop, I'd volunteer to help out with some of the activities.

I still have all my badges, pins and such, but lost the sash somewhere down the line. I also have my handbooks, which are still useful for looking up various skills in, like setting a campfire or tying knots, or even basic first aid.

I feel bad that Boy Scouts is such a rigid organization, because boys do need the basic things that go along with it-organized camping, outdoor activites, community service, and good, clean fun. My brother quit it young. My uncle took his kids out about 5 years ago because they were teaching the kids to fire guns at meetings. He thought that was a decision for parents to make.

[mutus_frutex]

47. I have to agree with you. I'm glad I have a daughter.. :-)

The only problem I have is that they are not coed. The Scouts in the US are something like 30 years behind. (In the case of the BSA they are something more like 70.. :-)

[coffeenap]

73. Our troop (I am co-leader) has made it clear that boys are

welcome. Being 10 and 11, we've had no takers. (I don't have any idea if we would get in trouble with the national group if any boys joined. If we did, then we'd just break off and do our own thing!!)

[noonwitch]

85. Isn't Camp Fire now co-ed?

I was a Blue Bird, when it was girls only, but I heard that it is now co-ed.

[mutus_frutex]

86. Well, that is really interesting.

Back home the system is a little bit different. I was in charge (together with 3 other adults) of a pack of 24 kids from 8-11. Equivalent to what here are the Cub Scouts. We were part of a larger group with a troop from 11/12-15 and and older group for the 16-18 years old.

It's nice to see that you would be able to function detached from the rest of the organization. In our case that would have taken away a lot of the program.

Anyway, we were coed all the way through (at least for the las 15-20 years). Something funny, related to what you said: when we went camping, we usually slept in tents. And it's usually a den (I think that's the name in english) per tent. Well, when we turn coed, we offered the kids the option of sleeping all together or to separate by gender. We knew in advance that the would not go for the sleeping together. And we kept doing it, year after year. We had no takers, but I think that is the proper way of doing it, when they say yes, you let them do it.

Finally, I was wondering if you had not takers because you are a GIRL Scout troop?? :-) We dropped the gender designations in all the units and for the organization as a whole..

Cheers.. Akela..

[barbaraann]

9. Some interesting info about Congress and Scouting

The Congress and Scouting

For the past 17 Congresses, the Boy Scouts of America has surveyed the members of the House and Senate regarding their participation in Scouting. The Marketing & Communications Division compiled the following information concerning the 108th Congress.

More than 50 percent of congressional members participated in Scouting.
Summary Breakdown of the 108th Congress Scouting Survey
Senators Representatives Total
Scout 53 163 216
Scout and leader 10 29 39
Leader 2 7 9
Grand total 65 199 264
Eagle Scouts and Special Recognitions
Senators Representatives Total
Eagle Scout 8 14 22
Silver Beaver Award recipient 1 2 3
Grand total 9 16 25

http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-571.html

[William Bloode]

12. I wonder.....

If he's going to protect them like those poor cats he adopted then killed?

[Polemicist]

71. Cat Killer merit badges to follow...

Scouting was fun. But if they want to discriminate, they need to do it on their dime, not mine.

[denverbill]

13. I think it's time for a new organization called the 'Bush Youth'.

It would be like the scouts, only none of the namby pamby merit badge crap. It would be geared toward sport and love of competition. It's highest priority would be to instill in youth love of country above all else, and that the life of one individual is nothing compared to the life of the Homeland.

Oh, and no blacks or Jews.

[Coastie for Truth]

15. I think Frist is a low life vivisectionist and a political whore --

but, one of the Fire Fighters who was killed on 9-11 was the (past) National President of the Eagle Scout Alumni Association.

(May St. Florian protect him and First Responders everywhere).

[JerseygirlCT]

17. Senator Nelson

what's in the best interest of the boys is a group that doesn't discriminate. Forcing the BSA's hands is the only way that's going to happen, if it happens. Giving them the a-ok to continue, along with a gov't check, will change nothing.

[grumpy old fart]

20. Bottom line, Federal funding of religious organizations is wrong.

Getting on the Federal tit carries certain obligations like being secular and protecting civil rights. If you don't want to follow the rules, get off the tit. It's that simple. At least it should be.

[peekaloo]

23. He's also implementing the "Cat Killer" Badge.

[toymachines]

27. ya i quit just short of eagle, to conformist and really full of shit

but i loved going camping, backpacking, and all that outdoors stuff. It kept me in nature a lot, which i love. now i dont get out doing that enough. the rules and ritual were really bullshit, but it was fun, taught me a lot, and is a good experience. probably shouldnt be federally funded though, lots of god talk. we had two hindus in the troop for a long time, they did well giving them vegetarian food at camp, but i dont think they were ever comfortable with the western religion being thrust upon them, which it was. oh and everyone in my troop was a stoner, i wonder if a lot of troops are like that?

[chicagojoe]

32. Boy Scouts is where I became a stoner.

I had a lot of good times in the BSA. My troop NEVER had any religious overtones, even though we met in a church basement.
EVERY kind of group in my neighborhood met in that church basement.
BSA, Girl Scouts, the local Dems, Young Republicans-- everybody.
Here's some irony-- my old neighborhood was probably 99.5% Catholic, but the 2 Catholic churches there never let any of these social groups meet in their basement. The church that opened its' meeting rooms to all was a Baptist church. This was all back in the 1970's, a MUCH more liberal and friendly time, in retrospect.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chicagojoe]

75. Not really.

Mostly the Catholic church meeting areas were used for Catholic functions-- K of C events, womens groups ( predominantly Italian neighborhood; lots of Catholic womens organizations), BINGO, etc.
I wasn't really suggesting that there was any "discrimination", if that's what you're asking. I guess I got off track, but the main point I was trying to convey was that in my Boy Scout experience, there wasn't really any religious overtone.

[BiggJawn]

33. Bush Jugend

"military personnel who are Scout leaders often inspire the boys to join the service."

[pelagius]

58. That's inflammatory bullshit. Save it for someone who deserves it...

...or you just look like a ninny.

[mutus_frutex]

72. He is partially right.

The 3rd Reich co-opted many of the methodologies of the Scout movement for the Hitlerjugend. Most of the youth organizations were closed and absorbed by the Hitler Youths. With its emphasis on duty to country, the Scout movement was quite easy to distort.

I think the BSA could very easily be transformed into the fascist youth of this country.

[pelagius]

87. You do make a good point...

...and I think the BSA could become a completely right-wing Republican white evangelical Christian enclave if moderates and liberals abandon it.

[mutus_frutex]

89. While the World Scout Movement has advanced a lot,

the BSA is stuck. It is not just that the moderates and liberals might abandon it, the fact is that they are either being kicked out or simply not joining.

I consider myself a scout, in my heart I will never abandon the movement, but I will not actively participate until it is brought into the 21st century by truly making is universal. I want it to be open to gays and lesbian, to women (in the case of the BSA) and especially atheists like myself.

Cheers..

[Mithras61]

90. BSA is (semi) open to women...

Venture scouts (ages 14-21 inclusive) is a co-ed BSA organization. Venture patrols can be part of a Boy Scout Troop or part of a Venture Crew. Further, women are welcome and encouraged to participate as Scouters (Adult Leaders). The limitation on female participation is for girls <14 years of age (and yes, I'd like to see that changed).

[mutus_frutex]

92. Yes, you are right..

I had totally forgotten about that. Well, I think there is a reason why I forgot: The BSA are heavily oriented to Troops, as originally defined by BP, right? There are Cub Scouts and Venture Scouts, but for the most part it's for kids between 11-14. Am I right? Back in my home country, since our organization is based on groups of a pack, a troop and the equivalent of a Venture unit, we try to keep a balanced number.

I have to confess that my experience with the BSA comes exclusively from the literature and from my contact with them in some World Jamborees. I always had the impression that they were as much out of place as the representatives from muslim countries.. :-)

Cheers.

[Mithras61]

94. Boy Scouts itself (not Cubs & Venturers) is open...

to boys 10.5 years (with Cub Scout Arrow of Light) or 11 years to 18 years of age.

Baden-Powell based his structure for Boy Scouts on the British military structure of the turn-of-the-century (19th to 20th, not current, of course), and many of the adult training terminologies used still reflect that heritage. His original idea was rooted in the desire to have young men more ready for military service, so much of the structure and function can be classified as para-military, but it is usually not pointed at that as much as it is preparing boys to be contributing members of society with a set of skills that will server them well regardless of where their lives lead them. I still remember many of the camping, hiking, map reading, etc., skills I learned over 30 years ago when I was a Boy Scout, and feel that despite the shortcomings, the organization offers some very valuable life lessons for young men and women.

[mutus_frutex]

105. To me, that age distribution is so weird...

How can you have a 11 yo together with a 16-18 yo is beyond me. Their interests are so different..

Anyway. Just so you don't get me wrong: I truly think that the scout method is one of the best things ever invented. I have used it, promoted it and even contributed to its improvement (I used to be the head of the Cub Scouts in my country some years ago). The problem is with the content. If we could bring the content and also some small details of the methodology up to date, I would be really happy. It would also contribute to the continued relevance of the whole movement.

Cheer..

[BiggJawn]

74. And who deserves it more than....

Some dumb-fuck Congress-Critter whos says
"Military personel who are scout leaders often inspire the boys to join the service.

Yeah, I know, I know....Well, look, I just can't WAIT until that muther-fucker Bush kills his 6,000,000, OK?

You gotta problem with that, here's a virtual Quarter, go phone someone who gives a virtual shit

[pelagius]

81. Your reply speaks directly to the quality of your reasoning. n/t

[TankLV]

68. Good post - keep it up. Don't pay attention to the morans amongst us.

There seem to be a lot lately.

[pelagius]

80. Are you calling me a freeper moran?

Are you?

[TankLV]

102. I can't call anyone a freeper.

It's against the rules.

[urizenxvii]

35. I'm an Eagle Scout

admittedly, I'm from a California troop that is not sponsored by any religious group. We were very very liberal, and I thought that all troops were like that... until I was enlightened later on. The main problem with the BSA is that its policies are crafted by the sponsors of the troops--70% or so of which are churches, usually LDS or Southern Baptist. Our troop was liberal because the Scoutmaster and the Board thought that the point of BSA was to let us boys learn how to lead, and they were there just to make sure that we didn't screw up too badly.

In short, don't judge Scouting by... er.. um.. crap. Don't judge it by the majority?

*sigh*

[w4rma]

37. Simple bills don't override the U.S. Constitution, Mr. Frist. (nt)

[xxqqqzme]

38. well, finally someone

has the balls to address this pressing national issue. Those libural groups R threatening the 'murican way of life. It has 2 stop B4 all the fascist youth training organizations R exposed.

[Book Lover]

39. So what is so great about the Boy Scouts anyway?

And why does it, as a private enterprise, deserve my tax dollars?

[htuttle]

40. It's where I learned to start fires, tie knots, and drink a lot of booze

And that was just one weekend at the national jamboree in Pennsylvania back in '77.

:shrug:

[Book Lover]

41. And you couldn't learn that

With gays or atheists in the crowd, and sans tax dollars? Please note that I am NOT attacking you, but this meme that says the Boy Scouts is ipso facto a Good Thing.

[htuttle]

50. Sure we could have -- in fact, we did

Hell, I was an atheist. Didn't know anyone gay back then except one of my high school teachers, but that had more to do with being in a small town than being in the Scouts.

The Scouts seemed a LOT different back then. It used to be mostly about camping, and scoutmasters were often hard-drinking, cussing, regular guys who's kids happened to have been in the Scouts at some point. Non-camping meetings were short, perfunctory, and generally just used to plan the camping (with the usual handing out of merit badges, etc...but nobody in my troop was that into that part of it).

Nowdays, it sounds like a lot more indoctrination (and pomp and
circumstance) is going on -- and I hear they hardly go camping anymore. I think it changed in the Eighties at some point.

I would not urge my sons into the scouts nowdays -- I just took them camping myself (course, it wasn't as much fun for them as it would have been with all their friends -- and the booze...).

[Xithras]

53. Well...

First off, a big part of it is the social aspect. The boys make new friends with kids from other schools, backgrounds, and areas that they wouldn't normally get to meet.

In the Cub Scouts, there's also a lot of emphasis on teaching personal and social responsibility, environmentalism, and first aid/safety type things. Pack events also typically help kids take part in activities like parades and overnight campouts that they wouldn't otherwise get to experience.

When they move on to Boy Scouts, the emphasis changes to camping, hiking, duty to community, and environmental stewardship.

The goal of Scouting is to raise good, well rounded adults. MANY Scouts go on to be quite liberal (myself included) thanks to the social and environmental responsibility aspects of the program.

The problem at the moment is that the BSA is currently run by a board full of wingnuts. The organization was founded with the idea that faith is important, but the discrimination that the current board espouses goes against all of the BSA's traditional teachings of tolerance and inclusiveness. Religion was never intended to be the main focus of the scouting programs (and in most areas it still isn't), and the anti-gay stance of the BSA is condemned by almost every scout leader I've met (and it's practically unenforced here in California). My hope is that sooner or later the more progressive voices within the BSA will gain control of the board and relegate the gay issue back to where it used to be...irrelevancy. Sex is not EVER discussed in Scout meetings (het or homo, doesn't matter...mentioning it is grounds for immediate ejection from the organization) so someones sexual preference is really irrelevant.

[Book Lover]

55. Thanks for the cogent explanation

As my family lives just south of San Francisco, perhaps I will look into the local groups once my child is old enough to join. Then again, despite our location there are our share of wingnuts here as well...

[outraged2]

57. Thanks

Thanks for the great post. I would add that it is also about kids working with their parents, and helping build those relationships. I was surprised how many parents in our group seemed to think this was just another activity they could dump their kids into for an hour or two of quasi-babysitting or something every week... a lot of those people dropped out.

My son just started in Cub Scouts this year and that has been our experience. I have been really torn because of what I know about the discrimination- especially about gays, and the fact that we aren't particularly religious. I decided to go ahead and keep my son in the program because 1. its the first extracurricular activity he's been interested in, and looks forward to 2. I figure the organization could do with a few more progressive voices in its ranks 3. It is possible to get through it as an atheist/agnostic and gives an opportunity to speak to my boy about faith and religion(s) - all of them- and the problems and the good things associated with religion and faith.

[pelagius]

59. I'm a California Scout leader...

...and our local council just ignores the edict from National regarding gays. And God pretty much, too. In trainings and other leadership gatherings, it is emphasized that we have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. I know this falls short of the ideal, but represents what we can do at the local level.

I find myself in a dilemma, though, when it comes to my continuing on with the BSA. I object to the policies established by the national organization, but am simpatico with the practices of my local groups. The troops (and packs) I work with are affiliated with my Episcopal church and are all required to sign a non-discrimination pledge. I believe we're doing good work with a basically sound program developed over the years. I've seen Scouts make a real difference in the lives of some at-risk kids.

For the time being, I just muddle along and focus on the kids, and take the occasional guff from someone more ideologically pure than I. Funny thing, few of these folks seem to be involved in any programs reaching out to kids the way Scouting does.

[bunkerbuster1]

42. What "attacks", you Moonie tool?

The ACLU is defending the constitution. It's the BSA brass that are attacking it.

[The_Casual_Observer]

49. This is a lateral move by the rw to connect church and state

It has nothing to do with the well being of children. Again, the children are used as pawns by the rw to push an ideology.

[pelagius]

64. May I respectfully suggest that...

...in my opinion, that very few people in this tussle (including those I agree with) are considering anything other than their own agenda, to the exclusion of the kids' needs.

[Hobarticus]

54. Sigh... Christians under attack yet again...

How will they survive?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

66. dintcha hear, the AntiChrist wants to be a boy scout leader.

it's in the left-behind series. If you read your bible you would know how the Antichrist winds up taking over the world, by brainwashing the children into doing his nefarious bidding.

seriously though, i would not want Bill Frist as my kid's boyscout leader.

[Hobarticus]

77. Did Marilyn Manson make a cameo in those books?

Just curious...

Fer chrissakes, DOCTOR Frist doesn't know if tears carry AIDS or not. He's not fit to set a splint.

[saltpoint]

56. In the fine print to Frist's public pronouncement in --

-- support of the Boy Scouts is his offer to pet-sit their cats when the family goes on vacation.

[KamaAina]

60. What about Boy Scouts' cats? Will Frist pledge not to kill them?

Meeeeeowwwwww!

[Massachusetts]

67. Frist = milque toast!

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. Reminds me of a joke I just received in an email:

Boy Scouts escape controversy:

It has been reported that suspected BTK killer and family man Dennis Rader "is active in the Boy Scouts", which was probably horrifying news to Boy Scouts of America officials.

However, they were probably relieved to hear that at least he's not gay.

[BlueIris]

76. I actually had to pass on buying Boy Scout candy the other day

because I disagree so strongly with their organization's policies. No, I did not tell the kids or their supervising parents why, I just walked on. I don't know when exactly I made that decision, I've been supporting them for years.

[Solly Mack]

79. so frist wants a law to protect the BSoA from the Constitution?

more or less...

a law to counter(cause to be ineffectual) other people from exercising their Constitutional rights by bringing suit...as well as suits enforcing the separation of church and state...

I want my own bill/law...one that just applies to me and can never be used as a precedent for other cases...it's all the rage these days! Get yours now!

[Xithras]

93. But the BSA isn't a religious organization.

Having a belief that there is some kind of god somewhere in the universe is a part of the BSA, but it isn't central and it isn't widely enforced (my son has never sat in a church in his life, and yet he's a scout). Equating the BSA with the Southern Baptists or the Catholic Church is unfair.

[Solly Mack]

99. The bill is still grandstanding and an abuse of power

I have no use for the BSoA because they promote discrimination.

Just because they are a "private" organization doesn't make their systemic practice of discrimination the right thing to do.


http://atheism.about.com/b/a/148189.htm
http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/boyscouts.html
http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/cases/record?record=33

[Mithras61]

83. As a current Scouter...

(that is adult involved in the BSA), I'd like to point out a couple of things for everyone here.

1) The Scout Troop is "owned" by the organization that charters it. BSA policy might say one thing and the Chartering Organization says another, and the Chartering Organization's say is what goes. BSA doesn't "own" the Troops.

2) National BSA policy calls for non-discrimination based on religious beliefs, but the organization as outlined by the founder (Baden-Powell - a former UK General officer) does call for a belief in a superior being. By the founding precepts, atheism is not acceptable.

3) Funding for each Scout Troop is either from the Chartering Organization or raised by fundarasing activities the boys conduct themselves. Nationally, the BSA is funded by charitable contributions both from its membership and from other organizations. To the best of my knowledge, the Federal government doesn't contribute to the BSA, but I haven't seen a breakdown of where the money at the National level comes from. Locally, we don't get any money from ANY governmental organization.

4) Regarding being gay & Scouting, the BSA DOES discriminate against gay parents. It requires that all leaders in a Troop or Pack be parents of the children in the Troop or Pack. It also requires that the children never be alone with anyone other than the parent of the child. I don't necesarily agree with their stance on this or the religion issue, but as a private organization, they have the right to make these demands.

Finally, to the person who said that the BSA lied because Frist said the BSA receives Federal funding, what makes you so sure Frist knows his ass from a hole in the ground? Again, to the best of my knowledge, the BSA's funds come from private donations or from fundraising activities the boys conduct themselves. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be interested in seeing it, because I'd like to have that information as well. If you only have Frist's claim as evidence, and you actually believe that liar, well, what can I say...

[Toucano]

84. We've got bigger fish to fry.

There are far greater injustices the ACLU's resources should be directed at resolving.

This battle provides a lot of political ammunition for the right.

[Generic Other]

88. I was kicked out of girl scouts for refusing to say the pledge backwards

I was a scout for seven years, but when I declined to be part of a color guard, I was told by my scout leader that I would have to recite the girl scout pledge backwards as punishment in front of the whole troop.

This is just when I was beginning to question my government's actions in Vietnam as well as my own political and moral beliefs. Even as an eighth grader, I must have had a better sense of social responsibility than the scout leader or the other girls in my troop. Maybe it was partly due to the fact that I had actually read the handbook and earned the badges over the years. I had sold the cookies and gone on the camp-outs. And I had been indoctrinated. The scouts taught me to respect the environment, to be a responsible citizen, and to help others. I strived to embody their values.

But the first time I applied the life lessons I learned, I was treated like an accused witch in the Inquisition. That's why I quit the scouts.

[paineinthearse]

95. BSA needs to focus more on preatory leaders and less on gays and religion.

This strikes close to home. Ayer is 2 towns away and is in the same Boy Scout council. Note this man has been a leader, but his background check is 20 years old: "Under Massachusetts law and Boy Scouts of America regulations, Hurley's criminal record was checked twice before he became a volunteer, Bieler said. He was found to have no record."

Since the BTK Cub Scout/church leader's arrest last week, I have been working with my state rep to change the law to require all volunteers having contact with children pass ANNUAL criminal and sex crime background checks.

--------------------------------

Scout leader faces child porn charges
Allegedly e-mailed photos to officer posing as collector
By Suzanne Smalley, Globe Staff | March 6, 2005

A longtime Boy Scout leader from Ayer has been charged with sending hundreds of pictures of naked boys, some engaged in sex acts, to a police officer posing as a child porn collector, authorities said. Terrence Hurley, 55, was charged Friday in Ayer District Court with charges including possession of child pornography and distributing material depicting a child in a sexual act, Ayer Police Sergeant Todd Crumpton said yesterday. He pleaded not guilty.

see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=158x3493

[Mithras61]

96. I hope it shakes up the local Council...

and causes the District to replace the Commissioner who is responsible for this Troop and for ensuring that the policies/procedures are followed, and to do some serious checking into what was going on. Several policy requirements have been violated, or this could not have happened.

1) EVERYONE who works with the scouts MUST go through Youth Protection Training at least every three years.

2) The Scouts all are required to receive training on how to not make yourself vulnerable to this and how and to whom this should be reported every year.

3) National policy further requires that no adult EVER be alone with the boys, regardless of whether it is one boy or 50 boys (always TWO adults, both of whom have received YPT training and are register scouters).

These are just the requirements/rules that leap to mind. I'm sure there are several others as well.

[Jamastiene]

100. I'm still fuming that they

went through all the trouble to ban gay people from the scouts, but added no clause to their creedo banning pedophiles. I'm like, "Crack open a dictionary already. Would ya?"

[vs the introvore]

104. difference between loyalty pledge and crying uncle???

I was in a troop that was affiliated with a catholic church. there were two jewish brothers in the troop. they were very smart and nice but not trusted by the troop leader. perhaps that was because they were not into the homoerotic, status-determining wrestling challenges led by the sons of the troop leader that took place at every camp-out. i am not sure. i know that i did not like getting my ass pinned (no pun) constantly and i bailed as a tenderfoot. later though i joined the army. hmmm.