France Dismantles Its 35-Hour Workweek

[tritsofme]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&e=5&u=/ap/20050321/ap_on_bi_ge/france_working_more

PARIS - Sophie Guilbaud not only holds a full-time job, she also helps run her son's nursery and treats herself to regular weekdays of shopping, movies and art shows. The secret to her balancing act is a remarkable piece of social engineering — France's 35-hour workweek. Introduced under the Socialists but headed for effective abolition by lawmakers Tuesday, "les 35 heures" have been a boon for some but, critics argue, a big drain on the economy.

Heated debate over dismantling the working time law has fed into wider political and literary soul-searching in France, on themes ranging from the country's economic frailty and bureaucratic office culture to whether quality of life should be measured in time or money.

For Guilbaud, a Parisian who works as a loan company manager, that last question is a no-brainer.

"Work is not the only thing in my life," she said, suggesting she might quit rather than work more hours.

But with unemployment at 10 percent, politicians of all stripes acknowledge that the country's unique 35-hour law has failed in its original ambition: to force employers to hire massively. What's more, there are strong signs that it hurt living standards as employers froze salaries to make up for lost labor.
<SNIP>

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[boneygrey]

1. No surprise

its my understanding that you work 35 hrs and get paid for 40. No wonder it hasn't worked.

[Deja Q]

2. And my understanding is that greedy asswipes will do ANYTHING

to get more money (and therefore power) by any means necessary.

They'd turn you into a soylent green sandwich if they could profit from it.

The greedy can ram that money up their asses. God did not create money. Humans did. Look what it's done to God's creations. :spit:

[Sgent]

4. You think we have unemployment????

France has twice the unemployment rate we do, and 5 times that for people under 30.

At this point, they have to get jobs.

[Deja Q]

6. Oh, but the US has been working overtime to play catch-up. And

If unemployment is that bad, who's doing what to resolve it?

The unemployed can't afford education.

Sounds like there are no apprentice jobs.

Don't place the burden on the jobless. I'm siock of that bullshit repuke corporate evil mindset. The job holders need some fucking responsibility too. We're a society. Not an us-and-them thing. We're all together, and they'd better remember before everybody else forgets. (for me, when I do forget, I'll just look in apathy. When they get into trouble, that;s their loss. They had no concern or care for anyone else, so do unto them what they've already done unto you.)

Damn right I'm upset.

[Deja Q]

7. Oh, but the US has been working overtime to play catch-up. And

If unemployment is that bad, who's doing what to resolve it?

The unemployed can't afford education.

Sounds like there are no apprentice jobs.

Don't place the burden on the jobless. I'm siock of that bullshit repuke corporate evil mindset. The job holders need some fucking responsibility too. We're a society. Not an us-and-them thing. We're all together, and they'd better remember before everybody else forgets. (for me, when I do forget, I'll just look in apathy. When they get into trouble, that;s their loss. They had no concern or care for anyone else, so do unto them what they've already done unto you.)

Damn right I'm upset.

[Selteri]

40. I'm still amazed that every repuke I know still

claims that those who don't have jobs are lazy and have no personal initiative.

Yet - I know for a fact that some of them can't even get jobs either, they just don't know it, or acknowledge it, I'm not sure which.

Yes, there are some people who are lazy and don't want to work, that's why you have specific rules for people like that. As for the rest, I'm presently looking for a job while I try to get my business going, which itself is extremely hard in this economy and time of year.


You're precisely right that it isn't Us vs Them, it's a case that we need to find a better way. If we were to go to a Bio-Diesel and waste recycled based economy we would be able to quickly become an exporting country be simply using the fields that are left to go fallow or where the grows are chucked because of minor problems like mold that would be destroyed in the cracking process. By legalizing hemp the bio-diesel and Non-sulfurous gasoline 'liquid hydrocarbon' replacement through simple flash pyrolosys proceedure, the same we use for gasoline using the heavy cellulose in the 'stem' or 'branch' of the hemp plant. Allowing the US with it's strong farm infrastructure to literally become an oil producing country. AKA How to make the US profitable again.

God forbid we develope an ecomony that relies on our salt of the earth farmers to provide us with clean, safe energy. We only rely on them for a good portion of our food!

[xray s]

8. Really?

France counts all its unemployed. Here we let the government pretend the long term unemployed do not exist.

[dutchdoctor]

42. In the U.S. , people in prison do not count as being unemployed

Since 2% of all working age men are imprisoned in the Land of the Free, you can add 1% to all U.S. unemployment figures you see. (To start with)

[hughee99]

46. We also don't count people who are

disabled to the extent that they cannot work. What is the definition of "unemployed"? Is it anyone who doesn't have a job, or is it anyone who is able to work (and of working age) that doesn't have a job? If this is the case, is someone in prison able to go out and find a job? Should people in a prison work program be counted as employed?

[eagler]

43. You are right .We are essentially lied to here. When people

exhaust their benefits here, they are no longer counted so we probably have twice the percentage of unemployed than reported. It hasn't always been that way.

[tritsofme]

52. The unemployment rate is determined by the Household Survey

A scientific survey of 60,000 households, it is not determined by state unemployment insurance claims.

[Mass]

12. Sorry this is wrong

If unemployement was counted in the States the same way it is in France and not by a poll, I am sure the numbers would be similar.

[tritsofme]

53. Here are international unemployment rates calculated using US concepts:

http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/library/downloads/keyWorkplaceDocuments/Department%20of%20Labor%20Special%20Reports/InternanationalNineCountries2004unemploy.pdf

And IIRC France uses a scientific survey to calculate their UE rate, it would impractical to count every single person, especially the way they count people that are only marginally attached to the labor force in their official UE rate.

[BiggJawn]

3. Unlike here in the US...

Where you work 40 and get paid for something like 30.

Oh, but how my heart longs to be paid 200 for "working" 3 or 4....

Like a CEO!

[Deja Q]

5. Try a 30 hour workweek for 10 hour pay and no bennies because

A minimum of 32 is required to get benefits.

Companies will hire part time to avoid benefits.

They will do ANYTHING to devalue work, even though the workload and intricacies of the work only gets more complex.

That is the system. Like it or lump it, try to be free and they'll come after you because you're living on "their" land.

God made the land. Not Columbus. Nobody should owe anybody a fucking cent. Unless it's to God.

[DS1]

15. It's next to impossible to walk into a retail job and get any more than

29.5 hours a week these days, and yes they'll give you exactly 29.5 in this state because 30 is the magic number

[Eloriel]

21. And most retail jobs really are parttime because

they don't need all that coverage at all hours, just peak hours.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. And when I worked retail, they used to schedule me for

just 15 minutes less than the time before I was required to get a lunch break. (You were supposed to get a 30-minute lunch break if you worked 6 hours, so they scheduled me for 5:45, which meant that I got only 15 minutes.)

[PSUDem]

44. They are currently doing that to me now

5 hours 45 minutes so now lunch break. Management who made the rules, however, are always taking breaks from sitting on their asses.

can't wait to graduate, and still be underemployed.

[raccoon]

38. Not just companies hire p/t

to avoid paying benefits.

I work for a state-supported community college. I heard it from someone in H.R. that 50 percent of the employees are part-time, no benefits employees.

[Mass]

11. Actually it worked very well

Productivity had increased, but the RW governement did not like that at all, despite a lot of giveaway to companies when the bill was passed (monthly number of hours and not weekly number of hours, ...).

[Mairead]

29. Really? Working 80 and being paid for 85000 seems to work for the bosses

so I really don't see why something much less outrageous wouldn't also be okay. Of course, these are only working people, not bosses. Different species, maybe?

[fairfaxvadem]

9. I have a 35 hour work week.

It's the first time I ever have, and I can honestly say that after years of the 40 hour work week, I am just as productive, and more motivated, because of the extra hour a day I get for myself. I'm eligible for overtime, but in the past year I've only had to do it on one occasion, and I prefer it that way.

And in a high traffic area like DC, I am particularly grateful for the 35 hour work week.

And I am considered full-time, with full-time benefits.

Happy employee here.

[ldf]

10. i'm confused.

if they have a 35 hour work week, and 10% unemployment, how does increasing the hours a week that the employed work, help to give jobs to those who DON'T have a job. it seems like there would be FEWER jobs available.

those rascally french. :eyes:

my head hurts.

[Mass]

13. Ask Bush - He should know

as the party in power is the GOP's brother.

[robcon]

19. The problem is that France is not the only place to locate jobs.

If some company/organization is in the EU, they can locate the operations anywhere in the union and not pay any tariffs. If, for example, they have to pay French employees 40 hours' pay for 35 hours, but have to pay Spaniards or Italians 35 hours pay, there is no incentive to locate operations in France.

The 'theory' behind this stupid law was always shaky... assuming that the world, and the EU is not flexible enough to locate where it makes the most sense.

[Mass]

30. Stupid law!

There was nothing stupid. Actually, it worked pretty well. Actually, during the first years after this bill was passed, unemployment fell for the first time in years and productivity raised.

Then came Bush's induced recession and economy failed everywhere in the world. Chirac was only too happy to put the recession on the back of the 35 hour law that he and his people had never accepted.

May be you may want to learn your facts.

[Festivito]

20. It's partly the competition, partly angry owners.

When the world adopted the 40 hour week, everybody, nearly everybody, did it at the same time.

France by itself, means French products cost 10-15% more in labor than prducts from other countries. Owners won't want to invest into more production in France when it would be cheaper elsewhere. It is also harder to price the product, especially for distribution outside of France. Hence, the jobs do not increase; unemployment increases instead.

Also, owners can be vindictive. They may want to break the 35 hour week.

But, productivity has increased with longer vacations. Perhaps it does not with less work hours per week.

Finally, all this can be b.s. There is no clear uncontestable answer.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

25. Wondering the same thing...

Unemployment means there are too many workers chasing too few man-hours of labor. Lengthening the work week would cause unemployment to increase.

I smell a right-wing conservative French rat.

[NYC]

47. You are correct.

[solinvictus]

14. US Unemployment numbers..

From what I understand of it, which is little, our government cooks the hell out of real unemployment numbers to minimize the long term unemployed (benefits run out, people who've stopped looking, etc.).

[tritsofme]

16. Alternate measures of US unemployment are available here:

http://bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cpsatab12.htm

[Delphinus]

24. I've heard

if you take the official number and double it you get a truer figure.

[hollowdweller]

17. Global Race To The Bottom

Nobody's immune. It's gonna keep getting worse till we see some sort of international union/worker rights movement, and when that happens expect some bloodshed, the people who are making all the money aren't gonna part with it without a fight.

[DulceDecorum]

18. The bankers rule

because they do not even have to bother to go out
and rob people of their hard-earned cash.

It is direct-deposited straight into the bank,
where the CEO can skim all he wants
and then charge the suckers huge fees
for the privilege of letting him sponge off them.

L' etat c'est la banque.

The key to a successful revolution involves a complete change in the manner in which surplus money is stored.

[tom_paine]

26. That is correct...The Age of BushPutinism has begun

Tha Age of Totalitarianism may well infect and bring down the remnants of the Free World and replace it with a BushPtuinist State as we have here.

Even if that doesn't happen, the "Fodder Units" (as Jeb Bush likes to call us) of the world are in for some bad times.

[reprobate]

22. America or France, the capitalist system cannot last much longer.

I believe that the system as it exists now holds the seeds of it's own destruction. The capital system as intended worked well for a time. At the start the enterprise was run by the person or people who started it, and then offered shares in the enterprise to raise capital for growth. T his allowed expansion and helped both the workers (including the owners) by selling more and increasing profits and salaries, and the consumer by offering more diverse products, increasing quality, and lowering prices thru competition.

The corporation was invented to limit the liability of the owners (the stockholders). This was the beginning of the germination of the seeds of destruction of the system. It thru up an artificial barrier, creating a management class and a worker class, separating them forever. In reality, management or labor they are all employees of the stockholder, but the manager has the power.

Human nature being what it is, management has turned the rules around so that it's compensation is far out of proportion to it's contribution. It's main goal has become the hunt for power and money. It has lost the original connection it had with labor, so labor has become just another resource to be used for management's gain.

The end result is a two class system. Wealthy managers and wage slaves. This is nowhere as apparent as in the United States, but it is spreading around the world, wherever the system gains a foothold, it's poisonous seeds germinate and grow, creating casts and turning the worker against the manager.

Eventually the universe will seek balance. Since workers outnumber the management class by billions, the result will and must be the overturning of the system in favor of one more in balance, which will reward work more fairly.

The only question now is whether that change will come by words or by guns.

[scarletlib]

23. Read an editorial on DU a while back discussing this issue

Now that Communism is essentially defunct as an economic system, there is nothing to "hold back" the worst aspects of capitalism/corporatism.

As long as the Communist System was viewed as a potential alternative to Capitalism, the government/business community regulated the worst aspects of capitalism to show to the world that capitalism was the better system for all concerned.

Now there is no check on that system and we see the effects. There is no reason that any of us anywhere should not be entitled to work a 35 hr work week. There is no reason why we shouldn't have decent vacations and benefits. But Capitalists now see no checks to their power and therefore have no desire to do right by the working man/woman.

It will take a catastrophe of some sort and the threat or actually rise of another economic system to change this.

[robcon]

27. I disagree.

The facts are important. It is in capitalist countries that the 35-hour workweek is possible. My sister has a 36-hour workweek because of the capitalist system. IMO.

[Mass]

31. NO

35 hour week are only possible in social democracy with "mixed economy" where the governement makes sure that the multinational companies are not the only ones to get a piece of the cake. In purely capitalistic countries , they are not possible.

[scarletlib]

32. dear robcon I am glad that your sister apparently has such

a generous employer. Unfortunately I am unable to locate the specific article which discussed capitalism/corporatism vs communism and how the competition with Communism kept the worst aspects of Capitalism in check.

I have attached a articles that indicate that not only is a 35 hour work week in the US not the norm but that even the 40 hour work week is under attack here. In addition, the articles point out that business (ie capitalist corporations) are very much opposed to the 35 hour work week in Europe. Why? Who can say except that it is easier to hire one person and make him/her work longer hours to avoid having to pay more overtime and or/benefits such as paid vacations to more people. The one article from Time Magazine indicates that the corporations are basically blackmailing the French to either do away with the 35 hour week or have the jobs outsourced to eastern Europe where people will work 40 or more hours a week at lower salaries and benefits.

My friend, if you think the big corporations and businesses are friends of the working man/woman, you need to do a little research on the subject.

Hopefully, these links which I am typing in as opposed to pasting will work for you. If not, you can type the links or go to the web and search for yourself. There is plenty of information on the subject out there.

http://itotd.com/index.alt?ArticleID=351

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,90104802-67254,00.html

http://www.commondreams.org/scriptfiles/views03/1105-08.htm


Edit:The link to the time magazine article is not copying in its entirety. The article was from the Time Europe Magazine--August 2, 2004

[robcon]

34. Your patronizing tone is remarkable.

scarletlib wrote: "My friend, if you think the big corporations and businesses are friends of the working man/woman, you need to do a little research on the subject."

I've done more than "a little research" on the topic, scarletlib, but don't let the facts get in the way of your precious theory. I have no doubt that businesses are 'friends' of the working man/woman when it makes business sense for them, and are not when that does not make business sense. Both situations co-exist in capitalist economies.

[reprobate]

33. I think, Scarlet, that it will be a 'quiet' catastrophe.

The system is designed to bring labor down. The goal of management is to lower costs of production and increase profit. Labor, being a major cost of production, will always receive management's attention.

I believe that a time will come when labor costs have been reduced to the point that people are desperate just to feed their families. As I've said before, that time will see a single spark set fires around the world. As in the French revolution, the perceived persecutors will be turned on and disposed of en-mass.

This will bring on a dark time of lawlessness, until a movement arises to bring some control to the system.

We progressives should prepare for this time and be ready with a system that is fair to all.

I believe that the above musings are, at this point, inevitable.

[robcon]

35. I believe your musings are fantasies, reprobate

1. Labor costs (workers' incomes) have been rising in every part of the world... every part that has been touched by capitalism (private property, rule of law.) This has been going on for 5 centuries, and has accelerated lately. Look at statistics, not obsolete theories.

2. Progressives being "ready with a system" is a howler. What are you ready with? What is the mechanism of change that allows 'progressives' to define a new system?

These are the "musings" of an intellectual separated from the real world, IMO.

[scarletlib]

37. Would be ever so grateful if you could post some information/

links that show these statistics. Also, in your investigation and research have you looked to see if the rising wages especially in 3rd world nations are 'living wages'

thanks

[scarletlib]

45. progressive economic websites

actually there are a number of progressive institutions now working on alternative economic theories that include not only the costs/profits that we know use to measure with but also systems to measure the human costs and environmental costs of our economic activities.

Our economic systems today really only look at one side of an equation, that is cost/profit to the business.

http://www.macroscan.com/

http://www.technocracy.org/?p=/links&TC=d7112ea50db8aac4b1ebfd7d184a81a4

http://hdr.undp.org/publications/journal.cfm

http://www.web.net/~pef/

there are many more out there. So it is possible to rethink and retool our economic system to create a system that is more fair to everyone.

[reprobate]

51. You're right, robcon. Workers incomes are certainly rising HERE!

If you read what I wrote, you would see that I did say that the system does work when it is begun. Incomes and product quality do increase when a capital market is started.

It's when the corporate system takes over that things go south in a hurry. Corporate management owes loyalty to the corporation. The workers have no part in it. Often, the consumer has no part in it. The corporation becomes and ersatz person, as it has here in the most horrible misuse of your "rule of law".

Your reference to "(private property, rule of law.)"seems to indicate that you believe I was talking about communism. Nothing could be further from the truth. I believe that communism is the other extreme of corporatism. Neither serves the people properly. And after all, isn't the entire purpose of an economic system to serve the people?

"What is the mechanism of change"? Perhaps you should ask Marie Antoinette that question. She would tell you the mechanism was fast and sharp. My fears are that the same reaction will happen to the people of the United States as happened in France in 1789. If it happened there it could happen here.

"These are the "musings" of an intellectual separated from the real world, IMO."

Oh, com on, rob. You have written too well on too many occasions to attack like that. We expect better of you.

Anyone who reads the latest new pages here knows what I said is too close to the truth for comfort.

"'progressives' to define a new system?"

Well, someone will have to, otherwise what will take over is anarchy, which is not an acceptable system for anyone. At least with progressives defining a system it would be humane.

[JohnyCanuck]

41. Well here's someone who agrees with you (and I do too).

The New Serfdom
by Kurt Nimmo from
Another Day in the Empire

<snip>

Our system of elected representation has now become so corrupted; it no longer serves the needs of people, but has instead furthered the erosion of the basic rights it is sworn to protect,” writes Rob Ronning. “The once free market economic system has been manipulated to become profitable only for those already holding power and wealth, while offering a lifetime of labor without appreciable gain for the vast majority of participants.” In other words, slavery.

“Corporate America has spent billions lobbying for deregulation of its activities and for privatization of everything from the health system to education to national parks and forests to Social Security—a situation that would lead to ownership and control by the corporate sector and a tiny handful of the super rich of virtually every aspect of society,” I quoted Bill Willers as writing in my The New American Serfdom. “With country and culture in the hands of a very few, democracy perishes. The great American Experiment would end not through internal weakness, but via carefully crafted ‘neoconservative’ strategy from without, to be replaced by something resembling, more than anything else, medieval feudalism, only set in a high tech world. According to the plan now in place, ‘we the people’ are to be the new serfs.”

“Many Americans have virtually no leeway on their monthly budgets,” notes Alexander Cockburn. “A co-pay on some relatively minor health emergency sends them scrambling to the loanshops. If interest rates start to move upwards many households on flexible mortgage rates will default, and plummet into bankruptcy and debt peonage for the rest of their lives… If the current trend among countries such as China, Japan and India to reduce their dollar holdings continues, the dollar’s status will plummet, and eventually its role as the world’s reserve currency will come to an end. No longer will the Asian nations subsidize America’s debt, and in consequence the cost of living for ordinary Americans will start to soar, pushing even more over the edge.”

Endless war and peonage are the harsh realities the neolibs and their neocon cousins have in mind for us. Sooner or later the American people will wake up to all of this and do what they should have done the last time the plutocrats and the banking and corporate piranhas destroyed the economy and imposed massive privation (i.e., during the so-called Great Depression) on “ordinary people” —make revolution, as Thomas Jefferson said the nation needs every fifteen or so years.

[scarletlib]

48. Yeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

You said it my friend. That tipping point could be arriving here much sooner than we could wish.

[hughee99]

49. If both the labor and management

are employees of the stockholder, then what about companies that encourage all employees to become stockholders? In some cases, such as Enron, it has turned out disastrously, in other cases, such as Microsoft (software), TJX (retail), EMC (data storage), Toll Brothers (construction), long term employees have made a significant profit. Some companies are now offering their employees the opportunity to purchase stock at a discount (5-15%), making their employees both workers and investors. While individually they do not have as large an ownership stake in the company as Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer, they are still investors who profit from the companies bottom line. Do they fall into the "Wealthy managers" or "wage slaves" group?

[sarcasmo]

36. That's like working part time. I would gladly work 35hrs instead of 60.

[ckramer]

France abolishing its 35-hour workweek

PARIS -- French lawmakers effectively abolished the country's 35-hour workweek Tuesday by allowing employers to increase working hours -- and pay -- as the country struggles with high unemployment and stagnating living standards.

In a final vote, the National Assembly approved a government-backed bill permitting employers to negotiate deals with staff to increase working time by 220 hours a year in return for better pay.

The bill effectively clears the way for the gradual erosion of the 35-hour week, a flagship policy of the former Socialist-led government that gave many people more time off but added to concerns about France's declining global competitiveness.

The shorter workweek was introduced on a voluntary basis in 1998 and made compulsory two years later in a bid to force employers to hire more people. But France's current 10 percent jobless rate is testament to the policy's failure to generate the promised millions of new jobs.

link

[LSparkle]

39. Guess I'll have to move to Norway or Holland now

Mais je ne parle pas les langues! Quel cauchemar!!!

[scarletlib]

50. this is part of a concerted effort by big business ie

transnational corporations to lower good working conditions for people worldwide. It is important. People in Europe especially Germany and France have been fighting against this for a few years now.


The conservative media and parties over there have been siding with the corporations in trying to roll back the progress that working have made in those countries.