India turns its back on US arms

[Say_What]

USSA f*cks up--again. :rofl:


<clips>

The reaction has been quicker than expected. Peeved at the US decision to supply F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, India has made it more than apparent that it is not at all happy and will play hard to get in all defense negotiations with the US. Making India's irritation clear, Delhi has announced new defense orders to Russia, Germany, Italy, Israel and even Qatar, worth a total of US$746 million.

Making no bones about New Delhi's annoyance, even as US Ambassador to India David Mulford has tried to placate matters, Indian Defense Minister Pranab Mukherjee announced on Tuesday that the government had cleared the purchase of 12 used Mirage 2000 V fighter aircraft from Qatar and 11 Dornier 228 aircraft from Germany for maritime surveillance, virtually as a gesture set against the US offer to sell PC-3 Orions to India.

India will induct nine offshore patrol vessels for the Indian navy, purchase a C-303 submarine-fired torpedo decoy system from Italy and manufacture eight more in India. It will upgrade its British Sea Harriers, fitting these with the latest air-to-air missiles from Israeli firm Raphael, combat maneuvering flight recorders and digital cockpit voice recorders.

Islamabad rejected criticism from New Delhi on Tuesday. "I am surprised by the Indian reaction," Pakistani Foreign Minister Khursheed Kasuri said. "This is not at all in discord with the emerging thaw in relations with India."


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC31Df03.html

[Bhaisahab]

1. well.

if the bush admin is devoid of any semblance of grace, the indian government doesn't seem to know how to conduct diplomacy in soft tones either. reminds me of stupid adolescent 'payback' routines.
things are moving along nicely with pakistan, why are a few planes an issue?

[DulceDecorum]

3. Let me see I I understood you correctly

The country next door has admitted that one of their scientists was building/selling nuclear arms,
The same country has conducted tests with you in mind.
That same country came into being due to a civil war in your nation.
That country just aligned itself with the US and purchased some fighter jets but you don't think that the purchase of these fighter jets constitutes a problem.

Hmmm.
have you SEEN what "a few planes" have done to Afghanistan?
Does the term "shock and awe" hold any meaning for you?

Maybe you should brush up on your history.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/south_asia/2002/india_pakistan/timeline/default.stm

[Bhaisahab]

8. can't argue with history

but 35 or 50 F 16s are not going to alter the military balance of strength between india and pakistan. now, if the US was supplying pakistan with aircraft carriers, that would be a cause for concern.
besides the mood of the people in both india and pakistan is changing. we're the same people you see, divided only by religion. the ordinary person here, even the most devout hindu or muslim, wants india and pakistan to have open borders and free trade and movement.

fifty years of animosity has made a lot of us realise that peace pays dividends bigger, wider, than military posturing and unwinnable wars.
its as simple as that. if india invades pakistan, it will be bogged down for years in a guerrila war, while pakistan does not have a hope in hell of invading and occupying india. the worst we can do to each other is for pakistan to drop a 10 kiloton bomb on delhi, and for india to drop five 10 kiloton bombs on pakistani cities.

the better option is for us to just get along with each other. trade worth billions between the two countries, diversion of money earmarked for defence to infrastructure and health services, these are some of the benefits we can accrue through peace.

[DulceDecorum]

14. They WANT

India and Pakistan to fight.
And while that fight is going on,
they will be looting the coffers of BOTH nations.

The British set this whole thing up so that they could one day return and once again, rule over both nations,
and those who do not understand history, are going to repeat it.

India has received a lot of US funds lately for doing the work that that the US companies have outsourced to India. Now the US wants that money back, hence the "gifts" to Pakistan which constitute an immediate need for India to purchase arms. Instead of buying the arms from the US, India has chosen to give those funds to other nations, thus royally screwing the US. The US will think twice before trying to recover money from India in that fashion, most especially since at least one of those Middle Eastern nations gets those US arms for free and also gets to keep whatever profits they make from their sale.

[nolabels]

15. Thank you for the update paagal kutta

It seems that there many people have a problem with the way their governments are handling themselves.

Going that extra mile needed to get along with your neighbor is always worth it

Your statement the better option is for us to just get along with each other. trade worth billions between the two countries, diversion of money earmarked for defense to infrastructure and health services, these are some of the benefits we can accrue through peace.is a good one.

Think you could expand that thinking. How about the ability to have peace of mind to think rationally without fear thus to enhance the the clarity of mind for long term planning and or change. In frantic state your ability to think ahead is greatly diminished

[nolabels]

11. I kind of think the poster had an issue with India overreacting

Which I would agree with

Here is just some old stuff to think about
FIM-92A Stinger Weapons System: RMP & Basic
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.htm

Who knows what if any of these other countries or foreign corporations have a hybrid or might have invented in the last 10 or 15 years. Hell most anybody with half a brain and some decent cash on hand could cook up all kinds of counter deterrents for defense of their country.

The tit for tat, eye for an eye, like Ghandi once said and poster points out, leaves the whole world blind.

[Say_What]

5. New US military bases everywhere from the Caspian to Iraq

Also, I remember reading earlier this month when Chavez was in India that they were thinking then of cancelling their order.

<clips>

...Finally, fast-growing India - no doubt miffed by Mr Bush rewarding Musharraf with the sale of F-16s, but also because the net of new military bases which the US has been throwing up everywhere in the region, from the Caspian to Iraq, while designed to quarantine off China from the oil it needs to go on expanding, cannot but leave India feeling pinched as well - India last week announced it would be constructing an Iran-India energy pipeline.

In short, the world's alliances have been changing, relatively quietly but fast, of late; and many of the changes are clearly designed to offset the threat posed by a newly bellicose and imperial-minded US.)

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/columns/html/20050319T200000-0500_77150_OBS__SHOCK_AND_AWE__TWO_YEARS_ON.asp

[anarchy1999]

6. You need to do some more research.

n/t

on edit:

DulceDecorum was nothing but restrained in response to your post and is to be respected for showing said restraint.

[Bhaisahab]

10. dulce made valid points

but i am an optimist and do not treat history as a warning tool. its more a learning tool - learn from history, but do not be scared by it, try and make a little peace.
thanks and g'night!

[TheFarseer]

2. When the decision comes down to

helping the country that is harboring Osama Bin Laden and the country that is not, I guess it's clear who you sell weapons to :crazy:

[anarchy1999]

4. Nice Job, Bush and Condi, you've done well!

sarcasm off now.

God almighty, when are the people of the US going to end this parade?

[plasticsundance]

7. This has been a long term trend.

India is finding an excuse to validate its agreement with Russia. The US supplied a reason for India. Another foreign policy faux pas by Washington.

India-Russia-China: Trilateral Cooperation?

Scroll down to article.

Russian Defence Minister, Sergei Ivanov, in his visit to India last week re-emphasized Moscow’s desire to build trilateral cooperation between India, China and Russia. Ivanov specified two areas that the three countries could cooperate in, research and development in the defence sector and; the war against terrorism. After the conclusion of the 1.8 billion dollar Admiral Gorshkov deal, India has replaced China as Russia’s largest arms buyer. Moscow wants to take its defence relations with its two largest customers to the next level and jointly develop a new generation of weapons.

Russia has turned down Pakistani requests to buy weapons based partly on the understanding that Pakistan is not a sincere participant in the war against terror. According to Ivanov, the second reason for the Russian refusal to sell arms to Pakistan is that Russia is not convinced that Pakistan is complying with “norms and rules inherent in the controls regulating weapons of mass destruction.” Russia has proposed that New Delhi, Beijing and Moscow should jointly work towards ensuring that terrorist organizations in the region do not acquire Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD). The recent Pakistani investigation into proliferation to nuclear weapons technology by its top nuclear experts to Iran and Libya has confirmed international concerns in this regard.

Emphasis is mine, but I thought it interesting that Russia realizes something that is completely lost on the US.

[Ezlivin]

9. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone - outsource weapons manufacture to India

Then they can build them cheaper and we can really pad the price to make a nice profit.

We are selling weapons to make money, right?

[plasticsundance]

13. Not sure if you're being sarcastic ...

but ... I think one has to be a US citizen to work in the US Defense Department ... or at least have a green card. Hey ... let's just make India the 51st State. That should cover this current US Adminstration inept geopolitical and geostrategic moves.

[VegasWolf]

12. Now all U.S. callers for customer service will really be kept hanging.n/t