Bush pushes `faith-friendly' plan

[Judi Lynn]

Bush pushes `faith-friendly' plan

By John Holland
STAFF WRITER
Posted October 4 2003

DAVIE · Religious-based social services groups provide love and caring, two things sorely missing when government agencies try helping the state's most needy residents, Gov. Jeb Bush said Friday.

In a room filled with about 300 people, Bush used his second annual Faith-Based Conference to rally support for President George Bush's plan to put more government money into the hands of religious groups.


The purpose isn't to promote religion, supporters said, but to acknowledge that such groups do a better job, in large part because of their faith.

And with more money, they can do even more, the governor said.

"The question is: How do we leverage all this love and passion to service the Lord, to make things better for people?" Bush asked. "I pledge to you that the state ... will eliminate barriers so that we are faith-friendly." (snip/...)

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-sfaith04oct04,0,1647869.story?coll=sfla-news-broward



Have you seen these photos? Check links, if you wish.
http://www.angelfire.com/ego/kininigin/jebbush.htm
http://images.google.com/images?q=%22Allen+Lee+Davis%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I used the photo links of Allen Lee Davis as an attempt to question the piety of Jeb Bush.

Here's a written plea for commutation from Florida bishops to Jeb Bush, before the electric chair charred this man to a cinder:

(snip) STATEMENT ON AN
OPEN LETTER TO GOVERNOR JEB BUSH URGING
COMMUTATION OF DEATH SENTENCES FOR
THOMAS H. PROVENZANO AND ALLEN LEE DAVIS

June 30, 1999


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Governor Bush:

Mindful of the great burdens of your office, we, the Bishops of Florida, come to you with our pastoral concern about the pending executions of Thomas H. Provenzano and Allen Lee Davis. Governor, will our citizenry be any safer, will our State be any better protected, if we execute these men? Will not the safety of persons and the preservation of public order be as secure, if instead, you commute these sentences to lifelong confinement? (snip)

Sincerely in the Lord,
John Clement Favalora
Archbishop of Miami

John J. Snyder
Bishop of St. Augustine

Robert N. Lynch
Bishop of St. Petersburg
Administrator of Palm Beach

Norbert M. Dorsey, CP
Bishop of Orlando

John H. Ricard, SSJ
Bishop of Pensacola/Tallahassee

Anthony J. O'Connell
Bishop of Palm Beach

John J. Nevins
Bishop of Venice

Agustin A. Roman
Auxiliary Bishop of Miami

Gilberto Fernandez
Auxiliary Bishop of Miami

Thomas G. Wenski
Auxiliary Bishop of Miami

http://www.flacathconf.org/Publications/BishopsStatements/Bpst1990/Bsgvpl99.htm

[mddemo]

1. faith based

I work and raise money for some catholic charities in my area and i think that if we got more support from the government we could do even more. We have some real dedicated people, and i know that they could acheive great works. Having had to get help when i first came to america and when my wife was ill, i gotta say the catholic charities were much better than the government agencies, you could see that they wanted to help, and went the extra mile to do what they could. Now i am succesful i fully support them now as ill never forget the assistance given to us.

[Flubadubya]

6. You make some very good points...

as when you say "if we got more support from the government we could do even more."

In an ideal world that would be great, but if anyone believes that the "Bush government" (be it Jeb's or George's) will deliver that in a truly altruistic manner without its primary agenda being the promotion of big business first (over the charity), then they had better reconsider.

These slimeballs are so slimy because they take these "heart-string" issues and play them like a seasoned con man. They are no more interested in the plight of poor people than crooked televangelists are in saving their souls.

[mddemo]

8. answer

if you read my later post you wil see that i am worried that it will be corrupted to, but i have to hope that it will also do some good.

[Malva Zebrina]

12. stop to consider

that depending upon the welfare, hand out money of the government--tax payer money--will only shackle you to whomever will be controlling your purse strings and eventually the way your religion is run. Although no religion is a democracy that is for certain, I see no reason to just hand over this kind of control to the government, especially a corrupt one like the Bush regime. I see this as a scam, no matter how much "good" is done--by any religion holding out their hand for this government money. Let the government take better care and pay more attention to the social problems of it's citizens and there will be less need for churches to minister to needy people--fewer people who are hungry , sick or homeless should be the goal of government social programs--not giving it to a religion, making that religion a lackey of a particular leader, or political party, and worse yet, taking the money of tax payers, who come in all shapes, sizes, religions and no religions, to give it to the favored few--Christian no doubt--feeding at the trough -- it's welfare religion and if you do not think there will be abuses here I have a bridge to sell you.

[mddemo]

13. rebuttal

Actually i find the "christian no doubt" line offensive, this is one question that we never ask, and in fact the catholic charities didnt care that my wife was jewish when we needed help. Yes it would be nice if there was no need, but thats just a fantasy, there will always be people who need help and the religous charities do a good job helping.

[Lars39]

33. You lucked out, then, There are many charities that wouldn't HIRE you

if you don't have the same faith, let alone help you out. The chance that there will be one dominant charity in a small town that would require you to be on the receiving end of heavy-duty proseltyzing before you can receive government-funded services is outrageous. If the only free health clinic is Catholic, the chances of a woman getting birth control or an abortion is nil.

[Occulus]

43. My man went to

a s-called "Christian" charity looking for work; they needed office help.

They had him take a personality assesment exam as part of their interview process.

The result: My man was "too caring and compassionate and cared too much about people" for the position they were offering.

Yes, that's a true story.

[Malva Zebrina]

56. No intent to offend

and I apologize for not making myself clearer. My point could have included the fact that the majority of people in this country are Christian and that the Christian churches are generally more organized and have more money or exposure than say the Wiccan religion, therefore, I would think that these Christian churches would be the largest recipient of tax payer welfare--also, under Bush, who has made his religion the law of land practically, I would expect that his favorite Christian religion will be allocated money before say, the local Wiccan church that shelters abused women (hypothetical) I think there will be a tyranny of the majority when it comes to receiving this faith based welfare money--already we have seen Pat Robertson's charity receive a tax payer money grant from Bush--and there have been stories of how religions, Christian, have received money over and above secular institutions who have had a track record going back fifteen years of success--in that case, I think it was a shelter for runaway teens based in Chicago--denied their grant for the first time. This is a bad idea from several angles and one is that it violates the separation of the church and state that has guaranteed individuals the right to practice or not practice a religion without the interference of the government.

[Skittles]

16. NO NO NO NO NO

if your charity is so much better than a govt charity KEEP IT THAT WAY. I do NOT want my taxes being funnelled to CHURCHES. PERIOD.

[mddemo]

19. taxes

Theres lots of things i hate my taxes going to as well, but as a society we make descicions collectively to fund projects using the common fund so to speak. personally i like this idea.

[Flubadubya]

22. If you are fairly new to America...

you may not have been strongly exposed to our constitutional concept of the separation of church and state. Perhaps you have. Nevertheless, it becomes a very dangerous threat to that constitutional amendment when the government decides to dabble in the subsidy of a religious institution (no matter what the cause or reason).

Who is to say which religion should share in the government's funding? The politicians in power, that's who. You can be sure they will NOT fund just ANY religion that asks for money. Well, so much for freedom of religion at that point. I do hope you see the real inherent danger in this.

[blondeatlast]

31. Agreed 100%, and I am a Christian. Any attempt to partner government

with religious organizations is not just a threat to non-believers, but the faithful of any religion.

I don't want anyone hovering over me while I worship; especially not the current administration. If the govermnment doesn't bother me, I won't bother it. (Aside from being a loud, proud Democrat!)

[PurityOfEssence]

50. "The People" can not vote in something that's illegal, period.

This is in violation of Article One of the Bill of Rights. Even if 100% of the electorate is for this, they still have to recind that part of the Constitution. That's all there is to it, period.

This is "the rule of law" that various groups chant about when it's deemed convenient.

[blondeatlast]

27. Let the government handle the technicals,

shelter, nourishment, social work, a place the homeless can pick up their mail.

That frees up private and religious charities to provide even more moral support for those that need it most.

I don't advocate closing private/religious organizations providing thses things, but let them be supported by private donations only.

[PurityOfEssence]

49. That's a ridiculous argument

Just because government charities have always been underfunded is no reason to say that they're inferior by nature. Do you advocate taking my money to promote your belief system? Would you be upset if your tax money went to a care-giving group that had crosses with red circles and slashes through them on the wall?

What if you grew up in a dysfunctional Christian family with drunkenness and child abuse and you deeply disliked religion? What if your childhood had left you emotionally disturbed and addicted, and the only way you could get help on a freezing cold night in a blizzard was in some place with a cross on the wall? This could very well happen if monies for services are to be funneled to religion, instead of secular governmental agencies. This is endorsement of religion, it is ESTABLISHMENT of religion, and it's wrong and illegal.

[SharonAnn]

55. But the Catholic Charities I know is a separate organization that

provides services and does not require that its clients or its employees be Catholic nor do they bring the Catholic religion into their services. They're set up as a separate organization as are, I believe, Lutheran Social Services and some others.

What Bush is talking about is something different. He's talking about mixing religion with the help that's being provided. Sort of "pray to eat" or something like that. He's also talking about government money going to organizations that do not and will not meet Equal Opportunity employment requirements.

He's really talking about government support of religious acts and therefor government establishment of religion(s).

[thebigidea]

2. what a piece of slime

"The question is: How do we leverage all this love and passion to service the Lord, to make things better for big business?"

what a complete creep...

faith-friendly?

FAITH-FRIENDLY?

[mddemo]

4. corporate

I have no problem with big business making some money on the faith based inititive if and thats of if it helps the charities etc, if they make 50 bucks but 50 bucks more money ends up in the programs thats cool, its still 50 bucks more than the charity had before. I would rather get the $100, but 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

[thebigidea]

9. why not cut out the middle man?

hand the money directly to big business.

It'll STIMULATE GROWTH, right?

CREATE JOBS.

[Judi Lynn]

3. Good Lordalmighty

Can no one SHUT HIM UP? Governor Reverand Jeb's on a religious roll!

(snip) Gov. Bush: Government needs religion's help to solve society's ills

Sun-Sentinel
Posted October 4 2003

DAVIE -- Gov. Jeb Bush told leaders from faith- and community-based organizations Friday that government needed their help to solve the social problems plaguing American society.

The governor's second conference on faith-based initiatives held workshops on the challenges in promoting healthy marriage and strong education values, tips on running homeless shelters, making grant proposals more effective and other topics.

``If we expect government to be the sole source of solving the problem, we are going to continue to see more and more pain, more and more loneliness,'' Bush said at the conference in suburban Fort Lauderdale.

Apart from calling for less reliance on government, Bush also hammered away his belief that personal commitment should be the main cause of change.

``It's up to us in unique, creative and individualized ways, customized ways ... to improve the human condition,'' he said. (snip/...)

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/sfl-1003jebbush,0,2323857.story?coll=sfla-news-florida

[7th_Sephiroth]

5. if they had thier way

women would be treated about the same as they are in muslim countires, people will be presecuted for thier beliefs, and we'll probably be living under a dictatorship.

[mddemo]

7. no sympathy here from me

On May 11, 1982, Davis--an ex-convict--entered the Jacksonville, Fla., home of the John Weiler family. Weiler, an executive with the Westinghouse Corp., was on a business trip in Pittsburgh.

In the Weiler home, Allen Lee Davis attacked Nancy Weiler, 37, who at the time was three months pregnant with the family's third child. Davis bludgeoned Mrs. Weiler--who was the corresponding secretary of the PTA at her children's school--so severely that she was barely recognizable when police found her body. Davis brutalized Mrs. Weiler with such force that the trigger guard on the gun with which he was beating her broke, as did the wooden grips and metal frame of its handle.

Davis tied up the Weiler's 10-year-old daughter, Kristy--a 5th-grade student who hoped to become a nuclear engineer someday--and shot her in the face, killing her.

The Weilers' other child -- 5-year-old Kathy -- tried to run from Davis. He shot her in the back, and then beat her, crushing her skull.

[Judi Lynn]

10. Faith based torture?

(snip) His death was tortured and violent. His execution was so bungled that his cause of death was at least partially due to asphyxiation. In killing Davis in such an intentionally inept manner, the State of Florida sank to a gruesome level of barbarity. For those who don’t care that Florida violated Davis’ civil rights, and for those, in fact, who applaud the cruel and unusual punishment inflicted on Davis, I can only say that in trashing his rights Florida trashed everyone’s rights. Does anyone really want the government in charge of torture as well as incarceration and execution? A government with such power would be known as a police state. (snip/...)

http://crimemagazine.com/davis1.htm

[mddemo]

15. rights

Didnt infringe on my rights, im more concerned for the rights of the family he butchered. I will grieve no more for him than i would Hitler, Saddam or OBL.

[Skittles]

18. um

and you are a religious person? :puke:

[mddemo]

20. religous

never said i was religous, i just support the religous charities in my area. I was raised a catholic (very conservative catholic) so i disagree with many on these boards over a whole range of issues, but with the death penalty, i think that justice is served when guys like this are executed. This is a personal opinion, there are some people who are so evil that its in the general populations best interest to sanction the ultimate punishment.

[blondeatlast]

32. Barbarism is barbarism. Of course I sympathize with the crime victims more

but is society any better if we allow our representatives to torture and kill the lowliest of us?

Not a very Christian sentiment, IMHO.

[Book Lover]

52. Um, off-topic!!

What doe the retelling of the alleged events of a crime have to do with the government taking my tax dollars and giving it to a church?

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. You ought to pick up books on how these church groups were received in

Ireland. Not too well.

[mddemo]

14. good point

BUt one point this isnt Ireland.

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. I don't think that's going to be a big difference.

The human dynamics are still going to be there. If you're on welfare, it's better to pull yourself up anonymously through government programs, than it is to be at the mercy of some self-righteous smug holier-than-thou in your community who will forever brand you as a welfare case. Small communities -- small minds.

[blondeatlast]

39. But it could be if we don't watch our steps. My grandmother came over

from Ireland at that time; I need no other example of why "faith-based" with public money is a bad, bad idea.

[blondeatlast]

36. Excellent pont, and rightly so. There are lessons in that history

that would apply today.

[kayell]

17. I was on welfare for a few years in the late '70s as a single mom

struggling to get through college and build a life. It was humiliating enough to deal with the nosiness and coldness of the government beauracrats who suspected you were just out to "milk" the system. Despite that, it would have been far worse to deal with constant invasiveness of a religious organisation offering their version of "love and caring". I've met that kind of caring, and it is bound and determined to change you into the kind of person that they want. Faith-based social services is just another step on the road to the world of The Handmaid's Tale.

[mddemo]

21. wrong charity

obviousley you went to the wrong charity, when i deal with people, i ask simply what can we do for you, if i recommend that we help them, i put in a report and they receive the help or check, real simple. Ive even helped people who though they are involved in stuff against my beliefs, they were in need and we helped. no sermons, no obligations.

[Flubadubya]

23. Good for you...

Your efforts are right-minded. Just don't expect that kind of behavior from the government.

You may give charity with no strings attached, but government subsidized faith based charity will have unlimited expectations of the recipient.

These kinds of programs just do not bode well for a truly free society.

[kayell]

24. The point is that if religious based charity is the main or only type

that there very well may be little choice. Someone who is in the kind of circumstances that cause one to need to resort to charity, rarely have the resources to shop around for the "right charity". Imagine the horror that can be caused by some religious organizations providing the mental health services for a community. While your organization may do fine work, they should not be given public funds to do so. I don't want my taxes going to support your religions ideas of the way to help people. If I do want to support your organization, I will choose to donate to it.

It sounds like your organization may be fine, but frankly I don't trust most religious organizations not to proseletize or pressure and certainly not the sort that the BFEE is likely to channel funds to.

[blondeatlast]

34. Exactly. Imagine a person left homeless when he was discharged from

mental health care. Desperate and lonely, he winds up being offered help by say, a representative of Scientology, or a Moonie. His "care" is funded by YOUR tax dollars.

How do exempt certain beliefs? We can't very well do it Constitutionally, so I prefer my tax dollars stay out of any faith-based charities posckets.

And I am a UU Christian.

[loudsue]

28. Desperate people don't usually have time to "shop around"

for help, to determine if the group they're approaching is going to try to convert them, "save" them (more humiliating than a cold government office, because in the process of being "saved" untold guilt and shame <"Admit you are a sinner for being poor"> are heaped on the victim), or expose their identiy and private information to the public.

Sorry. Churches are the biggest gossip pits that were ever created. Government employees aren't allowed to talk about their clients all around the town. They can get fired for it. Nobody's going to fire a church.

Furthermore, that's the people's tax money. It should be used to provide government services, not support church doctrine. Show me a church who isn't out to further their own doctrine....regardless of the denomination.

The talking points you are providing are just the same ones we hear from the bush crime family all the time. You should be questioning the issue more thoroughly for THAT REASON ALONE (!), if nothing else. They've NEVER done anything for "the people"....so why this?

Think it over. Most DUers know better than to trust this gov't. in anything the bushes support.

:kick:

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. And the name of your charity church is???

*

[Devils Advocate NZ]

40. Do the people being helped know it is a Catholic charity?

If so, then you are pushing your beliefs merely by implanting the idea that they could only get help from a Catholic charity.

When a secular government program turns them away, but they are accepted by a religious Catholic program, that imparts the idea that they need religion to survive, even if there are no sermons.

If the government wants to help people, why doesn't the government increase the funding of secular government run programs? Why force people to go to religious programs? The ONLY reasonable explanation is that the government WANTS people to feel that religion is the only help they will get, thus breaching the seperation of church and state by promoting religion.

[blondeatlast]

41. Explain something, then. How do people in desperate

situations "choose" the "right" charity? What tools does a just-released drug addict use to find your charity, as opposed to one operated by the Moonies (or some other cultlike faith)?

I don't doubt that your charity has the noblest of intentions, but I've been a Christian long enough to know that not all Christian charities care about Christ, just their particular faith.

[Book Lover]

53. What if this way the *only* charity...

available to her becaue the governemnt pulled up stakes when the church group got the tax dollars? ? Better to have to enter a governmental office - at least there is a complaints department.

[Zhade]

58. No offense, but charities aren't fucking STARBUCKS.

Often, people have no choice of charities.

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. My point exactly.

Thank you for reinforcing it.

[lovedems]

25. That is what parishoners are for

If a church wants to start a "social service" program, they should approach their parishoners. I think alot of churches suffer from the same greed that we see in corporate america. They have the money, they just don't want to spend it to help others. Believe me, I send my children to catholic school and they are constantly asking for more money and I don't see any new programs being started. I know the parish is not suffering either. I do not want my tax dollars going to religious based programs, the outcome would be 2 fold; if the church wants to continue to receive money, they will soon have guidelines to met by the government and, what church would not press their religion to some one who is need of help. This is just another attempt for the religious right to spread their wings.

[mddemo]

26. charities

The parishoners do give as do the local businesses, but if the government wants to outsource services to the charity i help then i say good, we have very good drug rehab, counselling, shild welfare, emergency help and health services, that are run by volunteers. Also on a sidebar did you know that after the federal government the Catholic church is the biggest healthcare provider in the US, thats were a lot of the money goes.

[Flubadubya]

29. "...Catholic church is the biggest healthcare provider in the US"

Be sure you qualify that as the biggest "for profit" healthcare provider in the US.

[lovedems]

30. I didn't know that

but it shows my point that faith based programs do not need money from the federal government. The catholic church has not depended on government money so far.

[undergroundpanther]

45. Faithbased silliness

I was in a catholic school for"troubled girls" because my home was abusive.This place had some state funding.I am not christian at all,I see Bast and Sekhmet as my Godesses and I do drumming trancework and things like that.It dosen't hurt anyone.
The place I was staying,because it was catholic they thought it was ok that they pressured me,they called me a heathen(something my abusive father did) and they took away my altar pieces,forbade me to set up my altar in my own room.(none of the other girls with non-pagan artwork were forced to remove it from thier rooms).If I was caught calling on my Godess I got restricted and because it wasen't "conventional" religion it was convienently declared part of my psychological problem. I was forbidden to wear my pentagram it was confiscated yet crosses were everywhere.Because they provided psych services alongside religion they were into behavior modification too.Sometimes they would force girls into a cement cell with a drain in the floor,no windows except a door slit,and a mat on the floor, and no light for"detention".

Sometimes you'd go in there in the morning and come out well past dark.
Nobody cared,the state didn't,the church was oblivious despite thier love the sinner claptrap. I got in there a few times for standing up against a nun who took delight in calling me evil, and not being exactly polite about it because my paitence had worn too thin as she refused to have a dialog and preferred to condemn me anbd bully me.I got in there for 2 days for refusing to get a tooth filled without novacaine and fighting the dentist and the assistants everytime they got that drill in my mouth since I had no numbness to stop the pain and it HURT.They tried to strap me to the chair in leather restraintsI bit thier hands..I asked for novacaine and they said they don't use it.(I don't know why they didn't use novacaine) I was put in the cement room for fighting,Nevermind it hurts to get a tooth drilled without novacaine.They didn't care about what I felt they were upset that I fought against them.

I have a trauma history,and the trauma I faced in institutions rivals what I faced at home.
I have had to deal with alot of really stupid crap,cocercion and pressure from all sorts of "well meaning" religious folk and'doctors' trying to change me and my beliefs for THIER own good.Institutions will do awful shit to people that are deemed mentally ill,poor, retarded or declared somehow a part of the class of lesser citizens(kids are lesser citizens too).People of this less than human class go through stuff that most adult 'citizens' would be outraged over yet we because we got a label slapped upon us must tolerate this'treatment'. I have had all of my rights stripped away.I have lived in a fascist regime run by authoritarians with goodguy badges and crackerbox degrees in witchdoctory an institution within the state,sanctioned by the state.


It became obvious to me people given authority in these places didn't like who I am so they wanted to remake my sense of self into an image THEY preferred because they felt entitled to do it and our culture excused it and funded it,and for them this made it OK.They were morally defecient in my opinion..School serves a simoilar function.

To get help I paid by having my basic human rights taken away, they invaded my body,messed with my mind. They did more harm than good.ButI never submitted to them and sold myself out and ultimately that is what they wanted me to do.. Institutions and the authoritarians who run them do use any tool they can get away with and that includes abuse to break people down into what they want them to be.

Sometimes people use euphamisms like "shaping" corrections,'treeatment'or behavior modification,to make what they do look palitable.It's all to make someone change into into someone else,willing or not.This is not OK. This scars people deeply,it's cocercion,it's wrong.People can change themselves but they do it by thier own volition in thier own time because thier reality demonstrates the need for change.A trusted person can help point problems out as long as they aren't carrying a dual agenda with thier'kindness'..If a change in personality,habits or beliefs isn't done by a person's own volition it's either a lie or it's the fear and results of trauma forcing them to behave the way the authoritarian demands they do.
Carrot and sticks,hell and heaven,us or them don't help anyone grow up.
Churches and individuals in churches have a history of this abuse of humanity as do mental institutions,prisons and governments.They have no moral highground.It's all about doing what the authoritarians want,eugenics,obedience,making human beings into weapons and workers for authoritarians, hoarding wealth and colonialism.

The concept we call Normal or"mainstream"is nothing but a lie,rooted in a weird form of socio- psychological eugenics.
How many people out there sometime in thier life struggle with religious issues that torment them,doubts,uncomfortable questions, and life experinces that defy what they were told and were supposed to belive.How many people bounce from church to church,belief to belief,politics to politics searching to find out how they really feel? How many people go through various kinds of emotional hells and self deceptions trying to figure out what they themselves really feel about god,society, self image,and whatever issues.Spending time sorting out parental programs and societal cocercions from thier own choices and motives? Sometimes isn't easy to undo what we are taught.Especially when we are scared to.

How many people go through this searching for selfhood process when they're growing up,from being a child and having a set of beliefs forced upon them by well meaning parents intent on 'shaping' thier kids for thier own good because it is assumed it's a parent's right to cocerce and teach thier kids to believe as they do and fit in with thier sick world.Why because a parent fears hell should thier kids be taught to fear it too. Why? Why can't people be who they are(even if it's freaky or controversial) when they are not hurting people? Why can't just being who you are be a human right?

How many parents feel justified because of thier beliefs, to wound a kid's heart because a kid loses faith in the paren'ts religion on his own,announces they're gay? Is this kind of psychological domination and emotional blackmail good for anyone? Some kids face worse than that at the hands of authoritarians they depend on for food and shelter. Some adults face bullying,threats,humiliation and exploitation just to keep a job to put food on the table.Don't try to tell me this doesen't add to people's reactions,hostility and stress.Is this way of cocercive relating to one another a recipie for a sane culture or for disaster? With the way our societies behave it looks like this game isn't working in fact it might kill us all.

When you are living in an institution,out of force or from nessecity..The process of learning how to to lie about who you really are, lie about what you believe and lie how you feel about yourself and society by playing normal is what stops the abuse from authoritarians. If you do it long enough you may forget who you were before playing the game took over in a bad situation.Sometimes the game persists long after the situation has passed.

Our society is another kind of institution as is church and job.Being forced to lie about yourself for your freedom from abuse or cocercion or deprivation is evil,yet in our society it is practiced everywhere, it's so common,so "normal" in the way we relate,to one another and our kids it is not seen as abnormal or sick .Why is that?
Whom does it hurt so bad that other people don't want to share in the"free gift",or buy a product,believe a conspirasy,dress like you want,or think as you think? Is it so horrible that people are different and see the world through thier own eyes and disagree, say no and refuse and resist?

When did it become ok in your own heart for authoritarian individuals to use authoritarian cultures to cocerce individuals or other cultures, to the point of depriving non-conforming people of shelter,food,love,safe treatment and withold or threaten to withold the means of survival itself in a land of plenty to bribe them to shut up,conform,obey,work, buy or believe as you or your society does and live as they live?
Couldn't society be sick because so many individuals are sick,especially authoritarian individuals intent on"shaping" society for thier own good?

[kayell]

46. I am so sorry that you had to go through such a heartbreaking time

Religious organizations that provide "help" and "charity" are sometimes capapble of amazing evil, simply because they are SO convinced that they are doing the work of GOD.

See also, the Magdalene laundries - http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/Ireland_abuse030126.html

And another fun little religious practice - requiring a baptism and sermon to give a bath to our troops in Iraq http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/5554317.htm

[kayell]

42. I'm sure your organization only has the best interests of it's clients

at heart. And so do the religious charities that require listening to a sermon before feeding the homeless. And so do the charities that counsel the young woman to keep that fetus so she can donate to a nice childless godly couple. And so do the religions that exorcise the demons from autistic children smothered in blankets.

After all, religions are all about looking after the whole person, soul and all.

If a religious organization feels they don't have enough money to help the needy, than they might rechannel a bit of that cash they expend on fancy mega-churches, tv access, etc.

[lovedems]

44. Exactly! We all remember Jim & Tammy Faye Baker

They had Heritage USA. I am told that there were water parks, cabins, parks, everything you needed to spend a weeks vacation. The more you donated, the better your accomodations were. With the millions of dollars spent on that, they could have spent that money to help others. It is all about them first. Of all of these tv evangalists, who write books terrifying people that the end of the world is at hand, how much of the proceeds go in their pocket and how much goes to a social organization? I don't know the answer but I would bet they are more interested in what kind of car they drive then feeding a hungry person.

[karlschneider]

47. If you're ever in Tulsa, drive around 71st & Lewis avenue, you can see

the 40 room mansions owned by Anal, er, I mean Oral Roberts and his
scumsucking family...

[Malva Zebrina]

57. and they can also refuse treatment to women regarding their reproductive

health and they do so. I have read numerous stories of how Catholic hospitals refuse to treat women who have been raped with the proper anti-pregnancy treatment and who, as well, dictate to their doctors how they are obliged to treat their patients if they wish to be doctors in a Catholic hospital--and--nevertheless--these hospitals depend upon government money (medicare payements) for a good percentage of their income. This is a perfect example of how religion will control persons who come to them for much needed help and will do so according to the tenets of the religion. Women who were in need, for their health and well being, were turned away and forced to travel many miles in some cases, to a hospital that would care for them properly.

[lovedems]

59. Catholic hospitals will not perform a tubalization either

If a woman wants her tubes tied while she is in the hospital after child birth.... SORRY. You have to go somewhere else.

[Lars39]

60. And if it's a teaching hospital, the how-to's of abortion aren't taught.

Article about a year ago spelled this out, that when a Catholic hospital buys a teaching hospital, the result is often that this part of the doctor's education is skipped.

[PurityOfEssence]

48. This is tyranny; it's anti-pluralist and virulently cynical

Anyone who wants to sugarcoat this Theocracy needs to explain this quote:

"The purpose isn't to promote religion, supporters said, but to acknowledge that such groups do a better job, in large part because of their faith."

This is promoting religion. This is saying that society without a component of belief is inferior. This is elitist, privileged and directly against the letter and spirit of the First Amendment. This is a statement of the inferiority of life without religion, and also a demand to have the right to public monies for their support.

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

[kayell]

51. Religious charities and abused women - personal experiences

When I was young, my father was both physically and emotionally abusive to my mother. When I was 11, she left him, and only agreed to come back, if they entered into some serious therapy. Unfortunatly the therapist they worked with was connected with a church and spent the next 2 years trying to teach my mother to be more submissive so that my father would feel like the head of the house as he should. Apparently all his troubles were because his masculine authority was in danger of being usurped. He had had several bouts of severe clinical depression that left him out of work at times and my mothers jobs and help from her family was all that kept our family afloat. So my poor mother tried desperatly for 2 more years to be more submissive, as a good christian wife should. Finally her natural common sense won out and they went to a different therapist.

Like many women that come from that kind of background, I eventually found myself with an abusive hubby. Realizing that I had to do something, I contacted the County mental health center and went to see the therapist they assigned (county paid). After hearing my tale of woe, and asking whether I attended church, this very helpful woman suggested that a bit of religion would probably help me adjust to married life. I did have the sense to immediately run like hell, but was so freaked (considerble risk just to go) that it took another year to break free.

That woman that worked for the county had no business making that kind of suggestion (not to mention it was BAD therapy), but at least I had the option to later file a complaint, and she was discharged (others had also complained it turned out). What happens when the only place in town to go turns out to be run by some Pauline christians with government funds? What happens if the woman is more browbeaten and afraid than my mother and I were? What happens to women in therapy who are discovering that they are lesbians?

[lovedems]

54. As I continue to read the responses, I don't know how anyone

could think this is a good idea. Under this administration, the type of christians who would benefit from this funding are the "Bob Jones University" type. Not to offend, but those people teach women to be submissive, women don't wear pants, there is no freedom to express yourself...Didn't Shrub kick off his campaign (or a congressman's) at BJU? They will not offer any services to those in need without pushing their fanaticism onto them. It is important to rememeber (as so many have pointed out) that those who need help are vulnerable and there is not a religious institution out there who wouldn't take advantage of that (directly or indirectly). This is just another way for the religious right to spread there wings, invade our lives, and further their cause.

I just wonder how the students at BJU would feel about a Muslim going to their campus and trying to convert them? I know that students at BJU can only leave campus for a missionary cause, which I am sure conversion plays a part.