Undocumented aliens rebuilding Biloxi, say they deserve visas

[sabra]

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/politics/12634975.htm

Undocumented aliens rebuilding Biloxi, say they deserve visas

Associated Press

BILOXI, Mississippi - As Biloxi rises from the devastation of Hurricane Katrina, it is doing much of it on the backs of undocumented foreign workers. Some are starting to suggest that their contributions are worth at least a temporary visa.

"If we are working and helping to raise this city, at least they should give us a work visa," said Manuel Armenta, a 44-year-old Mexican who came to Biloxi five months ago to do cleaning work at a hotel.

His old workplace - and his apartment - are now in ruins, but the hurricane created plenty of new jobs: cleaning up the hotels and casinos that fed much of the economy and putting new roofing on buildings of all sorts.

President Bush long ago proposed allowing more immigrants to work in the United States legally, but so far his ideas haven't gotten past Congress.

[hardrainfallin]

1. uh...would the alternative be to

hire american citizens displaced by the hurricane or does that have too much of a wingnut ring to it?

i dunno, I'm usually all for loosening restrictions on immigrant visas, but it just does seem there should be a kind of "priority list" here whereby American citizens in need of work get first dibs.....

[matcom]

2. there IS a priority list

HE is there cleaning up. HE therefore, is a priority

[ret5hd]

4. i don't necessarily dispute that, but...

i wonder how often we will hear of ANY anti-immigration racist wingnut REFUSING to allow his (re)builder to use undocumented aliens. just once i'd like to hear of one of these wackos turning in his builder (not the workers) for hiring undocumented aliens.

you know why we won't hear of this? Because that would disrupt/inconvenience THEM, the white chosen ones.

[pitohui]

6. yes a lot of us are out of work right now

not sure importing illegal aliens to work at below min. wage at formerly good construction jobs is the best way to help us on the coast

[acmejack]

7. Damn sure has done wonders for the economy here.

No jobs that pay a living wage and why should there be? The contractors are doing real well, the tradesmen not so well. This is *'s Texas and his vision for the rest of America.

Not immigrant bashing, just truth.

[hardrainfallin]

10. no. I don't think it is.

we had a major construction project going on here in a predominately black neighborhood (where there are also city "ordinances" or whatever you call them) stipulating that a certain percentage of the contract work go to minority businesses.

But they've had all these illegal alien workers (mostly disgusting looking, lecherous white men with fat ugly beer bellies from Eastern Europe who regularly harrass the women in the neighborhood with filthy sexist slurs) doing the actual work.

A few months ago, a group of black union workers protested out in front of the site, but they apparently didn't get anywhere.

Those jobs should be given to Americans, I'd say union workers first, then non-union, and if there's anything left after that. Fine. Bring in the Mexicans (most of whom, in the final analysis, are more 'American' than Texas Rednecks because TECHNICALLY, MExicans are NATIVE AMERICANS) .

I know it sounds utterly wingnut and maybe even racist, but I personally think the western European nations should be the ones taking in the Eastern European "immigrants" (illegal or otherwise), not us.

[Robert Oak]

17. the union

There you have it...it's union busting yet meeting regulations on "minorities".

They union busted all of the meatpacking jobs. They used to be good jobs, now W. Kansas is a poverty stricken nightmare full of illegals
working at the factories.

BTW: illegals hurt minorities. #1 group economically impacted:
Hipanics
#2 group: Blacks.

It's the "illegal" and "Under the table", not skin color that's going on.

[barb162]

28. Claence Page did a great article on this a few months ago.

It was on how illegal workers here are hurting black workers. I will try to find it.

[barb162]

31. ESSAY:JOBS NOBODY WANTS

ESSAY:JOBS NOBODY WANTS

July 27, 2005


Essayist Clarence Page considers if there really are jobs no one wants.




CLARENCE PAGE: When Mexican President Vicente Fox said, "Migrant workers in the U.S. are doing jobs that not even blacks want to do," he poked a large hole in a political hornet's nest.

Among the first bees to bite him were Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton in meetings and phone calls, but not much happened but headlines and talks to agree to hold more talks.

The truth is that Vicente Fox was partly right: A lot of immigrants, especially undocumented immigrants, are doing work that most Americans, black or otherwise, don't want to do. But it's also true that a lot of employers prefer to hire undocumented workers. And when that happens, it doesn't matter whether black Americans want to do the work; they don't even get that chance.

Even New York, the great melting pot, got a taste of that earlier this year. Attorney General Eliot Spitzer charged almost a dozen temporary job agencies with discrimination. The agencies allegedly catered to the preferences of employers who only wanted certain races or ethnicities to do work like housekeeping and child care.
snip

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/july-dec05/page_7-27.html

[corporatemedia]

41. Could someone name me a JOB NOBODY WANTS TO DO???...

FOR THE RIGHT PAY, Americans will do any job.

Illegal immigration, whether from Latin America or eastern Europe, takes away from the lower economic class the one thing they have that is of value - their labor.

This is not racism, this is survival.

Either you are for the American working class, or you are for Paris Hilton. Heaven forbid her Daddy's little hotel chain might have to pay a living wage to their workers!


My plan:

1) Build a wall along the Mexican border. (Sorry if that sounds like Buchanan, but we ARE being invaded by an army of low wage workers.)

2) Double or triple the amount of LEGAL immigration allowed from Mexico. (That probably would be a small amount of immigrants compared to the illegals coming in now.) Include immigrants from all economic levels. (Don't just cherry pick the doctors and engineers.)

3) Offer a free trip back to their native country and a priority place on the immigration list (and a fast-track for returning) for any illegals turning themselves in.



Mexicans, as has been true with all immigrants, are hard working people who just want a chance to work, raise a family, and hope for a better life for themselves and their families.


The middle class in this country is shrinking. It's former members are not swelling the ranks of the rich. It is the lower economic class that is growing.

If we open up our borders to the world, Ameica will become a nation totally of the rich, by the rich and for the rich.

[barb162]

43. several good points

Bush needs to start securing our borders bigtime.

[LeftyMom]

42. As the granddaughter of an Eastern European illegal immigrant

yes, that does sound racist and so does your description of the workers at that job site.

My Grandfather came here and worked like a dog, put five kids through parochial school, bought a house, ran a business and contributed way more to our society than a heck of a lot of native-born Americans ever dream of doing. He came to America becuse it was a safer place to be, both for geopolitical reasons and because Eastern Europeans weren't treated very well in Western Europe. From what I've read there's still a lot of discrimination against Eastern Europeans in Western Europe.

If he were still alive he'd be too polite to demand an apology. I guess I'm much more Americanized in that respect, because I insist on one.

As far as the job site situation goes, how do you know those men are illegal immigrants? Are the thier phony papers falling out of thier pockets, have you asked them? Hardly anybody knew my Grandfather had false papers. It was such a closely held secret for most of his life that some of the neighbors and family friends didn't know he was an immigrant at all.

[krkaufman]

25. Well, they're not necessarily good paying jobs -- or even minimum wage...

... since Bush waived the rule requiring payment of at least the prevaling wage.

[mitchum]

40. Nothing wingnut at all about supporting American Labor...

it's what the Democratic Party USED to do

[Roland99]

3. Undocumented? How about showing them the door back across the border?

[saigon68]

5. As long as Halliburton hires them

"They can stay", the AWOL CHIMPANZEE

[anotherdrew]

8. prosecute anyone hiring them, they need to go home

I'm sorry, but we have a legal means for immigration, they are driving down wages for Americans.

This is the hight of hypocrisy:
1->they're illegal in the united states
2-> they need to work and businesses have to hire them, and pay them crap low wages, because if one business doesn't the others will put it out of business by exploiting cheaper labor.

This bullshit must end. Either open the boarder and make anyone who comes across legal, or stop letting employers get away with this.

What is the point of having labor standards, minimum wage, etc. if employers can just say fuck it, I'll hire an illegal, knowing full well they NEVER get prosecuted.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO HIRES AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT NEEDS TO GO TO JAIL. stop punising the people who risk their lives to come here and work, proscute the people hiring them. they wouldn't come if they knew there was no work.

Then we can consider raising the LEGAL immigration quotas if more workers are needed, but such workers MUST be paid at least minimum wage, contribute to social security.

[theboz]

27. No we don't

I'm sorry, but we have a legal means for immigration

What means is that? To be a rich white person from Europe that wants to come here? That's hardly a legal means to come here for people who are from nations our government has destroyed and thrust into poverty.

Also, to everyone who has responded here complaining about undocumented immigrants and blames them, you ARE a racist. These are poor people, human beings, who are trying to make a better life for themselves. Unfortunately, due to our government's interfering with their governments and economies, things are bad, and so they come here where they can at least try to feed their families. Big businesses, who have our government in their pockets, exploit this situation by making legal immigration impossible, and thus they come here illegally and face dangerous situations and low pay.

Also, there is no cap on the number of jobs in this country. If we were to let people come here legally and compete with Americans, even if wages were temporarily driven down we would face an economic boom eventually. The fact is that the more immigrants we have, the more consumers there are, and as a result there are more jobs to meet the needs of those consumers. Complaining about people taking jobs while those jobs stay in the U.S. is pretty much nonsense.

[anotherdrew]

36. yes, we do ... w/link

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_1326.html

I agree with you basically, these illegals do not deserve one bit of scorn from anyone. However, they wouldn't come here if they knew they would not be able to get jobs. That would be the case if we actually enforce the law against employers. It is manifestly two-faced and beneath contempt that we trap and release these folks back to their native lands when caught, but do NOTHING against their employers. And yes, I can't tolerate the racist americans who always say "they're here illegally! deport them!" well, these same people never ask themselves, "where did the illegals work?" that's a crime too, but for some reason these "law and order" types seem to think that the law only applies to people, once you've got a business, then the law no longer applies, that's crap.

Now, all that being said.... what's gonna happen to me if I want to go take my computer skills and get a job in Mexico city with no visa? Do you think I can wonder down to Venezuela and get a job?

Maybe we do need more immigration, but let's do it honestly and sensibly, rather than this life risking madness on the boarder we've got now.

[theboz]

37. Agree and disagree

I agree with you that we need to focus on the employers, but sadly, these are the same types that run our government too. Whether it's the guy that runs KB Homes (a friend of Bush), the people that run Tyson foods (one of the largest employers of undocumented immigrants, and also a company that lures people to the U.S. to work illegally here), or any of the other big companies, they're all big supporters of the Republican party and they want the indentured servitude that they create. If people were able to come here legally, they would do so and the companies would lose the "competitive edge" in paying less than minimum wage, or having unsafe working conditions, etc.

As far as your question about getting a visa to work in Mexico City, I've gone down to Mexico on a tourist visa and ended up doing computer work. I could relatively easily go live down there too, but that's because my wife is a Mexican citizen.

I base my claim that it is not possible for most people to come here legally based on the difficulties we've had in her visa process, even though she is getting it by being married to an American, and the stories I've heard from other people who have been here legally but unable to stay, or have come here illegally. The stories that the people who snuck across the border tell is enough to make you really see our country in a new, horrible light, especially when we force people into conditions that sometimes are literally slavery. I've heard stories of illegal immigrants who end up on farms where they are forced to live in buildings all together and there are armed guards that make sure they don't escape, and they are forced to work in the fields every day. Slavery is alive and well in this country.

[Robert Oak]

9. Uh? How about Americans first?

This is illustrating the fundamental problem with illegal aliens
and why it's a big problem.

There are thousands of Americans, legal residents who have no income
as a result of Katrina...

they frankly deserve these jobs.

Yet, illegals are often preferred simply because they work under the table, as day labors and for wages below minimum and also do not
cause any problems with OSHA violations and other US worker protections.

I'm sorry, this is not a racism issue, this is an America issue.

It would be one thing if jobs were so plentiful it wouldn't matter,
but here it's very clear that Americans are out of work and need those jobs.

That's why illegal aliens are a problem for labor economics and US workers and why the damn "race card" always being played is a completely separate issue and really if anyone attaches to that aspect...well, it's not dealing with the real issue of American workers.

I'm sorry but the hurricane brought to light the terrible poverty
and conditions that are worsening daily for American workers.

If people want to improve the lives of workers globally, look to
American involvement and meddling in those nations, those slave labor
trade agreements (NAFTA, CAFTA) and many other methods..
but believing America can take on the worker problems of other nations
when America won't take care of it's own is a red herring and this flood of illegal workers to violate even minimum wage laws and increase the worker supply is dramatically increasing the race to the bottom for all American workers.

Another aspect of Katrina is Bush signing faster than bringing water
to anyone in NO 3 no bid contracts and on top of it, ability for these
contractors to not pay "prevailing wages"...so in essence,
they can take complete advantage of the situation and pay slave wages
for work that normally would be paid at a much higher rate.

Now, even beyond slave wages, we're talking about American's being by-passed for those jobs.

I'm sorry, this is not fair to Americans.

[hardrainfallin]

11. we need to raise holy hell about this

if the media's gotten its "groove" back, why the hell aren't they talking about this, esp the part about the gd Halliburton contracts being signed before the water came?

oh. it is so maddening.

give bush one of these damn slave labor jobs!

[Robert Oak]

12. I agree but with a warning

Whenever the issue of illegal aliens is raised people claim racism.

That of course is bogus.

But, on the other hand, there are bonified racists who have attached
themselves to this issue, but what they are really about is not
what most Americans are about, which is fairness, labor economics
and border security as well as "Unfair" underground economy, etc. economic implications.

so to raise it up, make a point to stick to the fundamental issue
of is it fair to give a cheaper foreigner a job that an American needs and wants.

That brings the focus on what is really going on, which is an attempt
to dismantle labor law, worker rights and wage levels through outsourcing and "insourcing". One mode of insourcing is illegal aliens.

What I really like about this issue is it's now on CNN the group
that isn't going to get those jobs are poor blacks.

That's the real point, illegal aliens hurt two minority groups
more than whites, Hispanics and blacks...for they lower the wages
of the already dirt crap low wages of the service sector jobs which are disproportionately filled by minorities.

[hardrainfallin]

14. totally agree. and it's a sticky issue

which is why I kept "qualifying" my statements.

God these wingnuts make life difficult, don't they?

I'm starting to think we should just ignore "what they're going to make of it"....ignore them, just fucking dismiss their BS for what it is BS. Not worth the time of day.

I guess that's what you mean when you say "stick to the fundamental issue....of whether cheap foreign labor is more fair....

BTW, the other thing that is setting off alarms for me is the way they are now "outsourcing" citizenship by making it easier for immigrants to get citizenship by enlisting, conducting citizenship ceremonies in BAGHDAD...offering lousy pittance perks for immigrants, basically along the lines: yeah we'll give you citizenship, all you have to do is survive Iraq


This NYT article has probably since been archived...

“Swift Road for U.S. Citizen Soldiers Already Fighting in Iraq”
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/international/middleeast/09soldiers.html?ex=1124769600&en=b79a77f03bbf482a&ei=5070&pagewanted=print

"In a 50-minute ceremony in late July, Specialist Garrovillas and 142 other service members took the oath of citizenship inside one of Saddam Hussein's palaces here, now part of the headquarters of the American command in western Baghdad. Between white marble walls, a brass band struck up "God Bless America."

SNIP

Since last year, teams of immigration officers have been jetting to military bases around the world to do interviews and carry out naturalization ceremonies.

20,000 military service members who have become American citizens since July 2002, many of whom applied under a fast-track process approved by President Bush in 2003 and enacted in October 2004. Under the new rules, people in the military can become citizens without paying the customary $320 application fee or having to be in the United States for an interview with immigration officials and naturalization proceedings.

The president also made thousands of service members immediately eligible for citizenship by not requiring them to meet a minimum residency threshold, as civilians applying to be citizens must do, although they must still be legal residents of the United States.
SNIP

The new citizenship laws have offered a powerful tool to recruiters at a time when the military is struggling to meet its monthly enlistment quotas. The armed forces now have at least 27,000 members who do not have United States citizenship.

:yoiks:

[Robert Oak]

16. oh yeah

I know, but I"m not worried about the military thing.

I mean, firstly if you're willing to risk your life to get US citizenship, so be it, that's fine...
but more they get people who have no way out of poverty to enlist
and die in Iraq...that pisses me off completely. Americans should not have to risk death to even have a hope of obtaining opportunity.

I also think it says something about Iraq...if you cannot get Americans,
even desperate Americans to get their asses shot off, there is probably something wrong with your war.

Anyway, this is the least of my worries...I much more worried about the many employers, including mom and pop employers who seemingly know how
to get illegals across the border, do the paper work for them, help them get phoney ids and so on.

This is going on in Oregon, the employers are assisting completely
in working the system, including illegal obtained social services.

That is just outrageous and not a damn thing is happening to these employers. You know if even the small mom and pop knows how to work the system to this level, it's a std. practice.

[hardrainfallin]

18. I agree, basically, but I also think this

"outsourcing" of citizenship is their "plan" for avoiding the draft, and that's just going to make it easier for them to keep bleeding the people economically....

yeah, and geez, what the hell has happened here, i mean with the mom and pop stuff.

They've just created such horrific economic circumstances that EVERYONE and ANYONE is willing to sell their souls....

I see it EVERYWHERE.

In the publishing industry, (my biz), the contracts are not worth the fucking paper they're written on....there is just NO integrity left ANYWHERE.

Even if the whole Barrell of Bushco Bonzos were to resign day after tomorrow, the DAMAGE they have done not only to the economy, but to the American PSYCHE, the very SOUL of this country....they've just blown holes right through it

They have made swiss fucking cheese out of the very fabric of our society.

How very American of them. :sarcasm: drip drip

[Robert Oak]

19. ethics

I agree it's gone. I have iron clad contracts (I'm a consultant)
and still they violate them. I take them to court, I do my own legal
advice, I win hands down and literally garnish their business accounts.

all the way down the legal road, they don't care, they want to the work for no pay and assume I would never be able to enforce the contract or do anything.

It's amazing and makes no sense business wise either. No only do they terminate any further possibility of me designing any further work for them, they usually spend more in legal costs than the cost of the entire contract. I do not because I act as my own attorney.

But, it kills me, I warn them there is the contract, the relationship is well defined and about 20% decide they can get the design and not pay the bill anyway. So, it's not even sociopathic, it's almost a Power play with no reasoning behind it.

I agree with you, it is "outsourcing" of citizenship and that's the 'big picture' corporations want unlimited movement of workers and we know Bush is trying to privatize the military...one little step in that direction.

[hardrainfallin]

33. same here, i mean with the contracts

unfortunately, i'm not an attorney (but have since found a great one who has ethics and does things for me cheap).

But i mean it's everywhere, even the gd dentist, there is just no ethics, no integrity, no nothing--"trickle down" depravity in action, eh.

And the frustrating thing, you're right: it doesn't even make good business sense, it makes BAD business sense, very bad.

FUBAR
FUBAR
FUBAR

[barb162]

13. You're absolutely correct (as usual)

and HI!

Too many Americans are out of work right now. Hire Americans who lost their jobs in the hurricane.

[Robert Oak]

15. ty

and let's keep the sanity and guard against the racists to keep this issue amplified as to what it's really about!

on our site, I get email and posts from real racists and believe me
they have attached themselves to this issue and they honestly believe
if you're raising it you're "with them". WRONG!
I'll personally like to take each and every one of those "save the white male" jerkoffs and get them deported across the border (:))

One of the biggest reasons they completely piss me off is because
of their "activism" this issue is getting clouded when it's very much a workers rights, American worker, economic and labor economics issue.

I'm serious, I recently got very fed up because on here and dailykos
now people just blast anyone who talks about this issue, any idea
that makes sense if it comes from something that associate with this issue and so on and I think that "knee jerk" mentality is due to the damn racists and their attachment.

[barb162]

26. Knee jerk mentality

is on DU bigtime and elsewhere as you mentioned in regard to this issue. My background is in economics and I will tell you, even though you know, that when an American out of a job, with exhausted unemployment benefits, that person needs to work first over illegals. That is not racist, though some will do their damnest to try to say it is. I don't care if the unemployed American citizen is black, white or hispanic or Asian or whatever else. It is not racism.

[OzarkDem]

35. Its not racist at all

You have to draw a line somewhere. The US can't be a beacon of democracy and fairness if its citizens don't have jobs that pay a living wage.

Perhaps those who feel immigration reform is a racist issue should direct their efforts at encouraging Mexico and other countries to build better economies and jobs within their own borders.

[barb162]

38. you have this straight, friend

[SemiCharmedQuark]

20. Even if Americans were doing the jobs, they still would be earning

less than minimum wage because Bush repealed the requirement for minimum wage in that area. Why aren't people at all upset about that?

[Robert Oak]

21. We're VERY upset about that

Extremely upset to the point I've posted it repeatedly plus written news shows and it's on our site for sure.

It's absolutely outrageous! He had signed that before anyone in NO even got a bottle of water.

What a crime.

What's even more bizarre is the floods of 1927 used forced labor
of blacks...

"wage slave" is looking pretty damn parallel to that event, 2005.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

22. Why isn't AMERICA upset about that.

Giving 20 dollars to the red cross can only do so much.

[Robert Oak]

29. I have a theory

The minute any news story has numbers in it they fall asleep.

I honestly don't know. I raise up so many economic issues that
are just outright theft and they slide right by, few comments, little understanding, boom, buried. snore.

It's frightening and it's how they are ruining the United States.

To me it should cause as much outrage as those desperate faces in NO
that just filled our screen, but I guess people cannot get up
these many "thefts" with those desperate faces...but it sounds like you know what I know...those thefts will cause desperate faces.

[MrSlayer]

23. It isn't minimum wage, it's prevailing wage he revoked.

For instance, an electrician in LA normally gets paid $9.41 an hour which means that anyone working that job for the Feds gets paid that amount. By repealing Davis/Bacon, they can be hired for less than prevailing ($9.41) but not less than minimum. It's disgusting anyway you look at it. $9.41 an hour is a joke for such dangerous work, less is even more of a joke.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

24. Ah thanks

I must have been misinformed. :dunce:

[Robert Oak]

30. yup but with illegals

and day labor, they often pay less than minimum, so wa la..
what next.

For ex. a common practise is to "pay" the minimum, then remove "charges" for rent and for "transportation"...say being loaded in the back of a truck costs you 20 bucks and day and so on.

It's @*)$&%*()#&*()

[MrSlayer]

34. I agree 100% about that.

My only point was that minimum wage was not what was suspended.

[Maine-ah]

32. I was thinking that when Bush dropped the whole minimum

wage shit, that this would be his reasoning behind it.

[mitchum]

39. JUst say no to cheap labor

Despite all of the twaddle about "compassion" and "land of opportunity" this is another tactic to further break the back of American Labor