Chavez calls for ban on Halloween

[emad]

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has urged families not to mark Halloween, calling it a US custom alien to the South American nation.

"Families go and begin to disguise their children as witches. This is contrary to our way," Mr Chavez said during his weekly radio and TV show.

He also said Halloween was a "game of terror", the AP news agency reported.

Mr Chavez is known as a fierce critic of the US government and President George W Bush personally.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4391166.stm

[acmavm]

1. That's a little nit-picky I think.

.

[Blaq Dem]

76. What??? No "Harriet Miers" halloween costume in Venz.???

[pokercat999]

123. Well, nobody is right 100% of the time.

My guess is he was never taken "trick or treating" as a kid. He never experienced the pure joy of watching his neighbor with slippers on his feet stomp out a flaming bag of dog shit deposited on his front porch.

I need more coffee....sorry.

[nodehopper]

2. um...pick your battles? wtf?

[Loonman]

3. "game of terror"

Nutbag. I always knew he had a screw loose.

[ixion]

4. *sigh*

Can't say as I agree with him on that call, but that's just me.

[sasquatch]

5. I happen to disagree with Chavez on this one

George W. Bush isn't Machiavelian American king, yet. So please don't take your rage against Bush out against your children.

[leveymg]

6. Someone should tell Hugo about Mexico's La Noche del Muerte.

Death processionals and feast days go back to the Middle Ages across Europe. By no means is this just a Yanqui thing.

No. No. No. You lose one good mark. That's okay, Hugo, you're still on the scholar's path.

[calimary]

58. Agreed. I just got back from my kid's CATHOLIC school in which

the big annual Halloween parade where everybody either arrives at school first thing in the morning IN their costumes, or has them ready to change into. It's one of the most HOTLY anticipated events of the year, and even the teachers, the principal, and many of the parents (even the hard core religiosos among them) come in costume or some sort of Halloween dress to celebrate.

He's got a LOT of other bones he can pick against the mercenary me-first gluttony of which so much of our nation's leadership is guilty. This is silly, and frankly, a little beneath him. I don't want to see him cheapening his quest to save his country and help it stay proudly standing on its own two feet, out of the stranglehold of the Goliath up north. This is silly, and a waste of his time. And he shouldn't be opening himself up to derision by doing this kind of thing. It only hurts his overall campaign - which is quite noble.

[LeighAnn]

65. Wonder if God likes that?

It's church-sponsored, right?

[Toucano]

63. La Noche del Muerte is not Halloween.

There are no Jack-o-lanterns or scarecrows or other North American articles employed.

The issue in Latin America has more to do with preserving their own customs rather than apeing the festivities of the US.

Venezuela is not alone in this feeling, which I think is legitimate although minor.

[SoCalDem]

72. and it's a night to honor the dead in their family

not to beg for candy from strangers, and throw eggs at houses & cars

[OKthatsIT]

106. actually it goes back 5000 yrs...at least in brittish isles

the Beaker culture would visit their ancestral 'barrows'(community grave) and hold a festival of fire. They believed the doors (or Hallows) between our reality and the 'otherworld' opened for one night and day.

It was originally Iberian. The term 'black scot' or black irish' depicts the original dark people of the brittish isles, 2000 yrs before the Celts arrived.

[burrowowl]

116. Nov. 2

is the day of the dead or on the ordo the day a priest can say 3 masses for the poor souls in purgatory. In Mexico, you lay out food for the spirits to partake of the essence of the food and then everybody feasts remembering them. Does't have a damn thing to do with Halloween, the day before Nov.1 all saints day for those already in heaven.
I am part Mexican, have lived in Mexico, am part Mexican and was born on Nov. 2 and have a great collection of requiems and when in grade school, sang 3 before the happy birthdays and I best liked my birthdays in Mexico. Halloween is more Anglo or wiccan than Latin or Indian.
The U$ commercialization of Halloween is nothing short of amazing. In many European Nations All Saints Day it is a holiday to go visit the graves of their loved ones and to clean and place flowers on the tombs.

[LiberalEsto]

7. Much as I admire some of his efforts

I will have no choice but to turn him into a toad for tonight.

[merwin]

8. Halloween is a bastardized holiday now. But that's no reason to call

it off for good. Just because it's different than it was a few hundred years ago doesn't mean that we should write it off.

[IndianaGreen]

96. The issue is American culture and its poisoning effects on Latin America

I remember seeing the conflict that Santa Claus brought to Latino families, too poor to even afford the traditional exchange of gifts in commemoration of the visit of the Magi to the baby Jesus, being bombarded with advertisement for Santa Claus.

The French are doing the same thing in France trying to maintain the Frenchness of their society against the onslaught of American pop culture.

[mitchtv]

107. the Cavalry has arrived..

you said it IG, and I'm sure A Latino nation like VZ can come up with a costume holiday without candy corn and harvest mix(LOVE those little pumpkins). Good for him. The more I here about him , the more I like him.

[Lasher]

9. He can't be all bad

After all, he's a fierce critic of President George W Bush personally.

[onenote]

12. he's not all bad, but he's getting close to jumping the shark

This was stupid...undermines his credibility on the legitimate criticisms....

onenote

[ixion]

21. good way to put it... I think he should have let this one slide

:freak:

[Moochy]

79. the Chavez that stole halloween

I mostly blame our media which is eager to jump on anything Chavez says that will reinforce his "strongman" status.

This will all come out in the 2009 hearings looking into false evidence for an as-yet-unnamed military operation focusing on securing the Jack-O-Lanterns of mass destruction in Venezuela. Who knew President Jeb could be worse than George!?? ( shudder ) apologies for that image.

That being said, I can repsect a non-american country's attempts to remain distinct, and preserve non-western, non-american traditions, but yeah what about Day of the Dead Chavez? Again it's more of the same focus on what could be controversial, to besmirch his anti-establishment message.

Ok so dont sell pumpkins, and ape the American tradition of trick or treating, I get that much. So when do we invade them so that Haloween will be on the march again down there?

[belle]

26. Yeah, he does seem to be rather high on the control-freak scale.

Meet the new boss...ho well. it does sound very old-school, doesn't it?

[manic expression]

92. not really

he's simply opposing a non-Latin American custom through personal opinion. Nothing authoritarian about it at all.

Chavez has been more than outstanding for the people of Venezuela in virtually every catagory. Equality, quality of life, no rape from foreign companies, health care, fair use of national resources the list goes on and on and on....

[belle]

97. Erm, "calling for a ban" is a bit more than "expressing your opinion,"

wouldn't you say?

And that is crap, it's a "non-Latin American custom." Says who? Who gives a shit? Because he's been a mensch to the poor means it's okay that he gets to be Minister of Culture for everyone now? interfere with peoples' idea of a good time? I don't think so.

[manic expression]

103. Wow

please point out the quote which indicates that he "called for a ban". He did nothing of the sort. The headline is misleading at best, a lie at worst.

Please, read the actual article and read what the man said before criticizing him.

He's not trying to be a minister of anyone's culture. He simply objects to this injection of American culture into Latin American culture, which is primarily being done for profit. That is not unreasonable at all.

I sincerely hope you're not questioning the Latin American capacity to have a good time without American holidays.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

122. If you read the article you'll see he did the second, not the first.

But I suspect you did that already.

[Loonman]

10. Giving out free candy is pretty socialist

Hugo should like Halloween.

[KansDem]

49. Not really, it's more a marketing ploy...

Stuffing high-fructose corn-syrup based, artificially-flavored, artificially-colored "candy" into the trick-or-treat bags of American youth is just yet another ruse for getting American kids hooked on corporate crap in an attempt to build brand loyalty and influence consumer habits.

Beyond that, it's just another excuse to buy holiday-related merchandise, such as cards, costumes, knick-knacks, games, souvenirs, etc, in an effort to prop up American capitalism. Next comes Thanksgiving and then, the BIG ONE...

[Loonman]

56. You're right

Let me put my Che Guevera shirt on and grow a goatee.

Frickin' commies....

[KansDem]

61. Che Guevera shirt, only $9.99

at www.chestore.com

"...for all your revolutionary needs."

Also, "Che Guevera" Headware...buy a cap to go along with you "Malcolm X" baseball cap. In fact, "The Che Store" has a link to Malcolm X merchandise...

http://www.thechestore.com/PopIconTees/products.php?cat=22

and remember, it's "More than just the shirt on your back."

As for the goatee, you're on your own, but until that time there's still Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0009RM2DW/102-2264887-5242546?v=glance

Only $24.99!

[Zhade]

80. Speaking of Che, I thought this was pretty brilliant...

:evilgrin:

[manic expression]

94. Those better be fair-trade

sorry to be anal....

[Bacchus39]

95. Che has been a boon for the T-shirt industry

n/t

[sufrommich]

142. ...

:rofl:

[Patchuli]

114. I think Halloween is just what you make of it

If one wants to go the commercial route, one can. You can also make your own decorations, have parties and not go the commercial route. The same goes for Christmas. Let's not blame the holiday because Madison Avenue wants to ruin it for commercial purposes. These holidays have been around much longer than the crass corporations who seek to capitalize them.

[KansDem]

133. Agreed...

I remember making my costumes from old clothes and a minimum of store-bought stuff. One year, I took an old sheet and tore it into strips. Then I wrapped myself up in an attempt to look like "The Mummy" of Boris Karloff fame. I spent days practicing "the walk." Then Halloween night: by the time I reached the third house, the wrappings were coming off in such a way that people I trick-or-treated thought I was an accident victim! "Looks like a truck ran over you!" Anyway, I had fun as I walked from house to house in what seemed like a non-ending parade of kids in their fabricated costumes.

Now days, parents take their kids, dressed in their $50 "store-bought" costume, to the shopping mall (can't trust the treats given at unknown homes). I've seen cases where a store will post a minimum-wage employee to toss treats into the kids' bags. No expression from the employee--just "here you go," and a treat tossed with less enthusiasm that giving a treat to a dog. No smiles, laughter, or "What a cute little ____" from the treat-giver like what one used to receive from the neighborhood residents.

But then, it's "safer."

[mitchtv]

108. Just another crass commercial Holiday

I'll bet many Venezolano patriots agree with him. All these pinche gringos complaining for the Brach company. I am certain the venezuelan people can out party the Nortenos any time, without the Great Pumpkin. It no longer has any religious relevance, here or anywhere else.

[Kolesar]

11. I would not miss trick or treating

Throw a party for the kids or something. Just stay away from my house with your little sweet ones. Adults doing costume parties is another dumbass tradition. I spent Saturday canvassing for the Reform Ohio Issues instead of making or buying a costume and whiling the evening away at a party.

[jobycom]

13. Great. We've become France to Venezuela. Have some freedom fries.

[Village Idiot]

14. Interesting...

Bust isn't "Día de los Muertos" a South American custom? I realize that the original Aztec holiday has been bastardized by Christers into "Día de Todos Santos," but all the same, it is celebrated all over South America...

[formerrepuke]

15. I thought all Ibero-American countries celebrated a form of Dia de los

Muertos -they even have it in Spain. It's more interesting than Hallween, anyway.

[Bridget Burke]

44. Dia de los Muertos is Mexican & Central American.

In Spain & South America, All Saints' Day & All Souls' Day are Catholic Holy Days.

[Megahurtz]

67. How about "The Day of The Dead"

in Mexico?

[Bridget Burke]

71. Dia de los Muertos IS "Day of the Dead"

And it is not celebrated as such in South America.

November 1st & 2nd are Church Holy Days but are not connected with pre-existing folk practices as they are in Mexico & Central America.

[Megahurtz]

73. I thought it might be,

but I don't know my Spanish....oops...
:yoiks:

[Celeborn Skywalker]

55. Nope.

Dia de los Muertos is a christianized Aztec/Mayan holiday that is not celebrated in Spain

[Dhalgren]

16. I am with Chavez on this. Halloween is a pointless excuse to

spend money in the company store and feed candy to obese children. Allhallows Eve may have meant something at one time, but now it is a silly corporate money-sponge...

[no_to_war_economy]

70. do you have children?

curious is all

[Iris]

140. why? Dahlgren can't have an opinion if s/he doesn't have children?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

78. It's like Valentine's day

it sells costumes and candy - that's it

[julianer]

17. I imagine he is upset about

cultural imperialism.

When I was growing up trick or treat was entirely unknown in the UK - halloween was not considered to be anything but All Souls night.

In the last twenty years we have had trick or treat kickstarted by tv and advertising, obviously for commercial reasons.

It is still the exception rather than the rule.

It does annoy me that we are all supposed to just adopt US customs and if we object we are 'nuts' or 'jumping the shark' (whatever that may be).

Do you celebrate Guy Fawkes Night in the USA. If not does that make you 'mad'?

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. And we're having a quiet little moan about it in the UK forum

in our very British way. Maybe it's time we had a sit down and a nice cup of tea.

I think we could have President Chavez as a guest - as long as he likes a nice cup of tea, of course.

[rayofreason]

45. cultural imperialism??

Give me a break. Nobody forces anyone these days to adopt holiday traditions. I've seen Mexicans on the border celebrate St. Patrick's day and Bostonians celebrate Cinco de Mayo. In both cases people decided it was a good excuse for a party.

If kids in the UK want to adopt trick or treat and parents don't object, let them. When I was a kid, Halloween was a kid thing. By the time I was an adult, grown-up Halloween parties were all the rage; I threw a very popular one for years. Maybe I got older, or maybe the grown-up Halloween parties are not as popular as before, but my sense is that the high tide on that fad has passed. Holiday customs change over time. From what I have read, Christmas in Tudor or Elizabethan times was a riotous affair far removed from present custom.

Regarding Guy Fawkes Night, nobody is saying "don't do it!". We don't because the fad never caught on, unlike the German custom of the Christmas tree or the Russian Easter egg.

Telling anyone how to have fun, or ordering them not to do something for fun (as long as "fun" is not destructive, dangerous, or otherwise obviously unwise) is rather lame.

Chavez thinks he knows what is best for everyone. I disagree.

[manic expression]

93. yeah

he's giving his opinion on a cultural issue. It is an understandable and very reasonable objection. He is simply arguing that it is not a Latin American tradition, and should stay that way.

Dos Equis, I believe, specifically pushed Cinco de Mayo...why?? Because they would sell more beer. It was for marketing. Period. I would put the family farm on the fact that the vast majority of Bostonians and other Americans who "celebrated" Cinco de Mayo didn't know or care about what it even commemorates.

Changing traditions is fine, but this is far different from that.

The funny thing is that the parents in the UK do object in many cases.

Please point out where he "ordered" anything or anyone. Thanks.

[julianer]

117. It may surprise you to learn

that most of us rather cherish our own cultural traditions and don't like to see them usurped by commercially based campaigns that have nothing to do with our own history.

The attempt to spread US culture around the world is an attempt to deracinate people and to isolate them from their own culture. There is then nothing left but the hollow parade to the shops to buy new culture off the shelf.

Of course we could just reduce the value of all human culture to what sells, but this seems to me to be a thorough dehumanisation of life.

Guy Fawkes Night is not a fad. Your calling it such speaks volumes for the insensitivity of cultural imperialism - who buys Guy Fawkes gear? No one? It must be worthless.

[belle]

100. I'm personally sick of the constant cheery Christmas shit, but that doesn'

mean I want it *banned.*

[GayCanuck]

18. Apparently

he doesn't know that Hallloween is a great day to celebrate our gayness; I'm sure there are some disappointed gays in Venezuela!

[mitchtv]

110. Honey, they'll survive

there are, after all, Venezuelan holidays.

[yellowcanine]

19. It's a little undignified for a president to be talking about Halloween.

Chavez needs to tone it down just a little. He is starting to appear to be a non serious person.

[crikkett]

27. Oh Please, our leaders harp on petty crap like this all the time.

(brain to slow this am. to think of examples)
- Mrs. Clinton denounces evil videogames
- Mr. Danger* flies into town to save Terry Schaivo
- The entire GOP-machine wishing for more Christ in Xmas last year

help me out here...

[onenote]

28. and are these good things?

defending this by citing other examples of stupidity isn't a terribly convincing defense.

onenote

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. If I remember right he has a DAILY radio address to the nation.

So I imagine he can afford to talk about everything under the Sun, including but not limited to, his favorite baseball team, the relative merits of guaraná versus passion fruit juice, how to best toilet-train toddlers, how Lula lost his left little finger, why Venezuelans should use Linux more...

[belle]

99. A daily address sounds excessive to me, frankly.

It sounds like he's been a mensch in many regards, but frankly, the cult of personality thing is beginning to creep me out.

[readmylips]

22. Get rid of McDonalds and Holloween Mr. Chavez....

Venezuela has beautiful native customs and holiday celebrations. There's no need to adopt US runchy customs. Mexico has Dia De Los Muertos (Day of the Dead), not the same as Holloween. Mexicans celebrate the life of the dead by visiting cementaries and decorating the graves in splendor. Having kids begging for candy house to house is just a capitalist money-making machine.

[phusion]

23. Headline seems misleading

A "ban on Halloween" is not the same as:

"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has urged families not to mark Halloween,"

[Kralizec]

25. Yes, he URGED families not to mark the date, he didn't BAN it. (eom)

[mitchtv]

112. yellow journalism

got all these so called progressives in a lather

[crikkett]

24. halloween promotes tooth decay!

And chocolate slavery!
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/fairtrade/cocoa/3338.html

[billbuckhead]

31. Halloween backlash brewing in Europe

Halloween backlash brewing in Europe

By WILLIAM J. KOLE

The Associated Press

VIENNA, Austria - It's almost Halloween — and all those ghosts, goblins, tricks and treats are giving Hans Kohler the creeps. So the mayor of Rankweil, a town near the border with Switzerland, has launched a one-man campaign disparaging Halloween as a "bad American habit and urging families to skip it this year.

"It's an American custom that's got nothing to do with our culture," Kohler wrote in letters sent out to households. By midweek, the mayors of eight neighboring villages had thrown their support behind the boycott.

Critics see it as the epitome of crass, U.S.-style commercialism. Clerics and conservatives contend it clashes with the spirit of traditional Nov. 1 All Saints' Day remembrances.

And it's got purists in countries struggling to retain a sense of uniqueness in Europe's ever-enlarging melting pot grimacing like Jack o' Lanterns.
<http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002586079_euroween27.html>

Chavez isn't the only one.

[KansDem]

51. 250 years ago tomorrow, about 10am GMT, the Romantic Period began

in European history: The Lisbon Earthquake...

The earthquake struck on the morning of November 1, the All Saints' Day Catholic holiday. Contemporary reports state that the earthquake lasted between three-and-a-half and six minutes, causing gigantic fissures five meters wide to rip apart the city center. The survivors rushed to the open space of the docks for safety and watched as the water receded, revealing a sea floor littered by lost cargo and old shipwrecks. Several tens of minutes after the earthquake, an enormous tsunami engulfed the harbor and downtown, rushing up the Tagus river. It was followed by two more waves. In the areas unaffected by the tsunami, fire quickly broke out, and flames raged for five days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_Earthquake

(more)
Social and philosophical implications

The earthquake shook much more than cities and buildings. Lisbon was the capital of a devout Catholic country, with a history of investments in the church and evangelism in the colonies. Moreover, the catastrophe struck on a Catholic holiday and destroyed almost every important church. For 18th century theology and philosophy, this manifestation of the anger of God was difficult to explain.

The earthquake strongly influenced many thinkers of the European Enlightenment. Many contemporary philosophers mentioned or alluded to the earthquake in their writings, notably Voltaire in Candide and in his Poème sur le désastre de Lisbonne (Poem on the Lisbon disaster). The arbitrariness of survival motivated Voltaire's Candide and its satire of the idea that this was "the best of all possible worlds"; as Theodor Adorno wrote, "he earthquake of Lisbon sufficed to cure Voltaire of the theodicy of Leibniz" (Negative Dialectics 361). In the later twentieth century, following Adorno, the 1755 earthquake has sometimes been analogized to the Holocaust as a catastrophe so tremendous as to have a transformative impact on European culture and philosophy.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

60. You guys should have had a Marquis of Pombal after Katrina. (nt)

[Lisa]

89. don't forget the begging and the vandalism! (n/t)

[RethugAssKicker]

29. Chavez is right... Why adopt such a ridiculous custom?

Its all about money anyway!

And he didn't ban it... He urged families not to celebrate it.

[MADem]

57. It is only about money nowadays

Back in the day, everyone made their own costumes. The old sheet with the eyeholes, the old black clothes painted up like a skeleton, tin foil galore to be a spaceman or an alien or even the tin man, or your own cowboy hat and belt with politically incorrect gun that you played with every day, and a painted moustache to finish off the look...the girls did the princess thing, or the ballerina, or Snow White. You could be anything or anyone with a bit of mom's face cream and some baking powder (perfect for a skeleton head) ... and then all of the other colors from her kit for whatever suited your fancy, and you were off to the races.

One of the best costumes I ever saw was a kid who was a robot--he covered a box in tin foil and made arm and head holes, and did the same with a smaller box for his head with antennae coming out of the top---then he covered his arms and legs, and wore dishwashing gloves--quite the hit!

And way back when, before razor blades and crazy bastards who would try to poison children, the BEST treat was a homemade candy apple, or those wonderful, disgusting balls of popcorn with caramel and nuts that the neighbor lady would make and wrap up in WAX PAPER (you don't see much wax paper nowadays). Peanut brittle was a real hit, too. And then, there were the lazy families, who would give you a few pennies for your sack or even a nickel!

But those days are gone. Ya can't cry over it, or try to turn back the clock, now there is a new paradigm....with both parents working, nuts who will poison kids, and the pressure of TV to encourage kids to buy fancy get ups that reflect the latest superheros or characters, no one has time to do the home made costumes and treats.

[donsu]

30. Halloween is a big money maker for corps. and the media is paid

to talk it up and sell, sell, sell.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

32. "From this day on, the official language of San Marcos will be Swedish."

"Silence! In addition to that, all citizens will be required to change their underwear every half-hour. Underwear will be worn on the outside so we can check. Furthermore, all children under 16 years old are now... 16 years old!"

[HuckleB]

37. LOL!

Woody do rock.

[Mojorabbit]

33. Halloween is

the most important religious day in my belief system.
On a secular level it is fun for the little ones.
Sorry, he jumped the shark on this one.

[druidity33]

64. Really?

for me it is the summer solstice...
sometimes Beltane plays an important role in my year...

[Mojorabbit]

115. Beltane

is the most fun....wink

[The_Casual_Observer]

34. Halloween sucks anymore. Hijacked by corporations

quick buck carney enterprises, and beer makers. We hardly see any little ones anymore knocking on the door.

[HuckleB]

38. Come to Portland.

Lots of local activities, community based haunted houses, local farms setting up corn mazes, home-made outfits making up a fair percentage of costumes, even for kids. And we get 100 to 150 youngsters at the door every year.

[jseankil]

52. Where do you live? No trick or treaters?? /nm

nm

[goodhue]

35. candy rots the teeth

capitalists destroy

[HuckleB]

36. Why would Chavez go down this road?

He just put an Onion headline on the BBC! Dumb move. He's made gains in many places in recent months, but this is a step backward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

[HuckleB]

39. Halloween is here.

http://www.halloweenishere.com/history.html

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. Ban? Where's the ban?

All I read is he prefers people would not observe it. Hardly a ban.

OH... I get it. Since he is a DICTATOR, this must be understood as an ORDER TO BAN! And since he ORDERED a BAN, that proves he's a DICTATOR! And this is not circular logic so stop saying that!

[fishwax]

109. funny how that works, init?

He points out it's not a U.S. custom and that Venezuelans don't have to adopt it, and suddenly he's jumped the shark. When this thread was posted, I had a feeling that this halloween issue would somehow be the last chavez straw for some. oh well. :eyes:

[mitchtv]

113. so "Yankee - centric"

I might add.

[rinsd]

42. Sigh...more nuttiness and more excuses.....

Musn't allow those damn foreign customs to pollute the beautiful nationalism.

Must have stations play Venezuelan folk music. Halloween is evil.

But hey he blasts Bush so we shouldn't care!

Geez can you imagine the uproar if Bush decided that Labor day was an import of socialists and therefore most be spoken out against.

[foflappy]

47. BINGO !!!!

"But hey he blasts Bush so we shouldn't care!"

the head of the nail has been struck ...soundly!!!!!

[Bacchus39]

82. no worry, I'm sure Venezuela

has some kicking Halloween parties.

[1932]

102. Blasting Bush is about .00001% of what Chavez does.

But I noticed that a lot of people at DU who spend absolutely no time talking about the serious issues Chavez raises and addresses simply respond to everything that Chavez does with posts like, "hurray for Chavez's F.U. to Bush" and in 99.9999% of the cases Bush isn't even implicated in the subject of the post.

Curiously, this has given another smaller group of DU'ers the opportunity to characterize Chavez as being appreciated only because he says F.U. to Bush.

I wish these two groups of DU'ers could get their own private message board where they could engage in that circle jerk and leave the public discussion to the hundreds of issues that Chavez addresses that give rise to really interesting, thoughtful, important debates.

[1932]

132. For e.g., here's something worth talking about, has nothing to do with W:

Chavez also said that worker occupation had to look beyond the immediate circumstances of the factories taking part and consider a broader social strategy. Chavez called this wider strategy Social Production Businesses or EPS in Spanish. He said, "we haven't expropriated Cumanacoa and Sideroca for their workers just to help them become rich people the day after tomorrow." "This has not been done just for them, it is to help make everyone wealthy," Chavez added.

Chavez said that workers should also create effective trade union movements. He said that there must not be a repeat of the type of trade unionists who, "turned their back," on their members and, "Leaders, like those in Venezuela, who enriched themselves from the bosses and negotiated away the lives of the workers." Chavez also said that Venezuela is approaching a, "post-capitalist society," but that people had to be patient. He said, "We cannot speed up. We cannot drive ourselves crazy. We must be conscious that this is a process with a far off deadline, this has always been the case."

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1801

[ret5hd]

130. the u.s. gov't ALREADY DID THAT...with MAYDAY!!!

that's why we have a "labor day" to begin with!

history books help...sometimes.

[rinsd]

136. Well.....

Both holidays sprang up near the same time with Labor Day (based on an annual parade by the knights of labor that preceded the Haymarket riots) getting the nod to avoid association with the Haymarket riots that occured on May 1(which other labor groups wanted because it commemerated the date the 8 hour work day was established a few years earlier).

History books ARE great when you're not trying to be snippy.

Maybe we can dig up history on when an American President spoke out against May Day celebrations and told Americans they were evil.

While not an official holiday of the US, I haven't heard of any US President condemning it. Well perhaps we can count Cleveland since he made Labor Day the official one.

[kevinbgoode]

43. Chavez and Robertson in bed together now?

Maybe this will make the American fundies heads spin a little faster.

[K8-EEE]

46. I'll Still Buy CITGO Since They Are Freer Than The Saudis...

He doesn't say anything about beating or beheading women who dress up for Halloweeen....but this is stupid, outrageous, and dictator-like IMO. If I were a Venezuelan I'd be pissed.

[Bridget Burke]

48. Again with the "jumped the shark"????

Yes, www.jumptheshark.com/ is lots of fun. But--a TV show that has jumped the shark has begun the long, inexorable slide downhill. Recently, a few DU'ers said that Cindy Sheehan had Jumped the Shark--surely, it was coincidental that the meme was also a Right Wing Talking Point.

I can understand what Chavez is doing here. But holidays have ways of growing & evolving, no matter what the authorities say. Even if I don't think this is the smartest remark he has ever made, it does not mean that most of his policies are any less relevant.

Edited to add: I wonder why the headline said Chavez wanted to "ban" the holiday? He criticized Halloweeen but proposed no actual ban.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

53. I'm assuming you saying "I wonder" is rhetorical.

Me, I don't wonder a little bit at all. It's pretty obvious.

[callady]

50. The Origns of Hallowe'en in England

All Hallows' Eve

The origins of Hallowe'en in England

On 31st October, the eve of All Saints Day, the people of England celebrate Hallowe'en, or All Hallows' (meaning hallowed or holy) Eve.

In ancient Britain this date was the pre-Christian eve of the New Year and Celtic Harvest Festival, when the souls of the dead were thought to revisit their homes to eat and drink. People left refreshments on the table and unlocked their doors before retiring for the night, then bells were rung, fires lit to guide the returning souls back to earth and animals were brought in for the winter.

After Hallowe'en became a Christian festival, supernatural associations continued to thrive. It was believed that witches were abroad and that it was possible for certain people to perform magic and summon up spirits. Torches (made from cabbage stalks and bundles of dried heather dipped in grease) were carried and spells were chanted, in the hope that souls condemned to purgatory (from Purgatory Field, Poulton & Purgatory Farm at Weston, Lancashire) would find some relief.

Hallowe'en was also a time for rituals and divination, when nuts were roasted by young women and apple pips scattered on hot coals - the behaviour of the pips indicating the temperament of their future spouses. Fortunes were told with apples and cabbages; children bobbed for apples in tubs of water; girls combed their hair three times before a mirror in the hope of seeing their future husbands; and lanterns were made from swedes and turnips (gouged out to form a face with a grinning mouth), then kept alight from from dusk until dawn.

Hallowe'en was once a time for making mischief - many parts of England still recognise this date as Mischief Night - when children would knock on doors demanding a treat (Trick or Treat) and people would disguise themselves as witches, ghosts, kelpies and spunkies, in order to obtain food and money from nervous householders. In certain parts of England youths still play pranks on their neighbours by hiding garden ornaments, whitewashing walls and ringing doorbells in the dead of night.

http://englishculture.allinfoabout.com/features/halloween.html




If Hugo knew the origins he would love this day. However he is right in seeing how it is completely co-opted and maybe understandably leery of any commercial imports from el Yanqui.

[yellowcanine]

54. This is different from Jack Chick's version.......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4231073

[tenshi816]

138. I'm late getting into this thread, but I have to say

that when I moved to the UK in 1986, Halloween was virtually non-existent (other than fleeting news references to it). Years later, when I was at home alone one rainy October 31st night with my 3-month-old baby son, I heard repeated knocks and kicks to our back door, which I opened only to see two boys aged about 16 grinning and saying "trick or treat". I was flustered because in all my years to that point I had never encountered trick-or-treaters in England, and in America it's a kid thing anyway.

Never having encountered trick-or-treaters in the UK at the time, of course I had nothing to give them. I was also frightened a bit at the prospect of two hulking teenagers at the door demanding "trick-or-treat".

Later that night, we discovered at least a dozen eggs smashed around our door. No wonder Halloween is viewed with suspicion in the UK. Halloween traditions may be rooted over here, but until recent years it was unheard of. Of course, now it's been taken over by American marketing techniques and it's as relentlessly commercial as any other holiday.

[fshrink]

59. Wrong argument.

Nice to see the guy saying stupid things for a change. Beter angle was the colonial flavor (e.g. Columbus Day). But since he's mainly after pissing off the idiot...

[alcibiades_mystery]

62. Chavez should stick to distributing oil revenues and shut up about

Halloween and other cultural events.

Dang, that's stupid.

[redqueen]

66. What a blatant lie in that headline. Shame on that editor!

People can celebrate however they like.

Since this publisher has printed a deliberate lie in the headline, why the hell should I believe anything else in this story? So he encourages people not to celebrate it... and I should care about this... why?

Why the media would choose to harp on this comment is beyond me. Wait a minute, no it isn't. :eyes:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

77. That's what I'm saying - where's the call for a "ban"?

[bluestateguy]

68. This is distressing

It's his country, of course, but this seems rather petty.

I always said I think he's done very well by the Venezuelan people, but I guess you can't support someone 100% of the time.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

86. Read the article. It's not like the headline makes it appear to be. (nt)

[bluestateguy]

87. Article read. Position still the same.

n/t

[Megahurtz]

69. It sounds like he just doesn't understand

what Halloween really is.

[John Q. Citizen]

74. I know from my studies in cultural geography that many countries

feel the West and particularly the US is exporting it's cultural far and wide to the detriment of many other cultures. This is an on-going debate around the world about cultural imperialism. We see the same things here in the US in the "English as an official language" movements.

My bet is Chavez is playing to popular sentiments about this issue and it is irrelevant on an international level. It was the expression of personal sentiments on importing cultural traditions like Halloween.

It's not really controversial and if you like Halloween here in the States, go for it! Me, I like it just fine, and have no trouble at all with Mr. Chavez's personal feelings about the tradition as regards Venezuela. What would anyone expect from a guy who has a vision of South American unification. If I lived in S. America, I'd be in favor of a unification. And with that comes a sense of identity that many would like to present as unique. South America has long experience with Anglo Saxon traditions, and they would like to keep some of their homegrown ones intact, I think.

Halloween and the Dia de Las Muertas pre-Columbian tradition that's found in Mexico are really quite different even though certain trappings may appear similar.

Dia De Las Muertas is a celebration to honor dead ancestors. It's closer to Veteran's Day as far as it's cultural significance than to Halloween.

[Realityhack]

84. That was very well put n/t

[Bacchus39]

105. do you think latin america is monolithic culturally?

I'm not sure how far "unification" will go.

[1932]

111. In the EU, political unification is working well, and their cultural

hurdles are much higher. In all of SA they're only as linguistically diverse as the Iberian Peninsula.

I suspect that South American political unification could become hugely successful, which is probably why there appears to be so much effort coming from the US to undermine it, and if not undermine it, then at least promote skepticism among Americans so that anything we do bad down there, at least popular opinion won't resist it too much.

Chavez paraphrased Chomsky when he said recently that there are two superpowers: the US's military-supported imperialist will and "american popular opinion." (I believe Chomsky says the other superpower is global popular opinon, while Chavez thinks it's just the US.) So, like I said, I think the Chavez critics are mostly interested in preventing popular opinion from taking any side other than that of of US imperialism.

[rinsd]

148. How well?

Didn't the Constitution just get rejected? Isn't there grumbling about returning to independent currencies?

[John Q. Citizen]

137. No, but S.A. has a common experience in a political and economic

sense. And the idea of a S.A. federation is an old and integral part of the history of South America.

The MercoSur has already set up a trade union between continental Giant Brazil and economic hope Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay. Chile is an associate member moving toward full membership, and Bolivia, Peru and Venezuela are all interested to varying degrees.

Common linguistic traits as well as religion also serve to re-enforce a sense of community between various states in the region.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

75. I don't see him calling for a ban in this article. He urged people not to

participate. The way we celebrate Halloween is very commercialand distincly American. He has a long record of resisting American ways. I will need to read a transcript of the entire speech before I pass judgement.

[RandomKoolzip]

81. That's typical of commies like you.

:hug:

Just kidding, bro. Love the new sig pics, by the way.

[Realityhack]

83. READ the article before commenting on it?!?...

what are you un-american ;-)

Seriously, I am supprised how many people here do not considering how much we pride ourselves on 'knowing the facts'.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

85. Sometimes I think I'm in Slashdot.

First Post! Hot grits! BSD is dying! In Soviet Union, DU trolls YOU! You insensitive clod!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

90. Shut up Yakov

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

91. In Soviet Russia, Yakov shuts up YOU!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

88. HA!

:thumbsup:

[1932]

98. They already have Dia de Los Muertos.

BTW.

[SOS]

101. After reading the article about him

in today's NYT, it's a pleasure to find yet another reason to like him.

Chávez Restyles Venezuela With '21st-Century Socialism' - NYT 10/31/05

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/30/international/americas/30venezuela.html

[1932]

104. NYT's JUAN FORERO is to Venezuela coverage what Judy Miller is to Iraq

coverage and what Jody Wilgoren was to John Kerry.

Washington Beating War Drums - Act Now, Defend the Venezuelan ...
But let's go back to Juan Forero's article. The only "sources" he gives for this toughening of US policy towards Venezuela are all "unnamed officials". ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1431

AFL-CIO in Venezuela: Déjà Vu All Over Again
Juan Forero, writing from Caracas for The New York Times on March 11, 2004, ... (The documents on this web page are those referred to by Juan Forero in his ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1139

Venezuela's Agrarian Land Reform: More like Lincoln than Lenin
According to Juan Forero of the New York Times, even before these latest decrees were passed, “as Mr. Chavez’s government trains its sights on 6.6 million ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1384

On Leaving the Superpower Orbit
... Considers Toughening Stance Toward Venezuela) by reporter Juan Forero: "…the ... What's at stake, as Forero's article (egregiously anti-Chavez in tone) ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1442

Venezuela: So This is What Self-Determination Looks Like
By Juan Forero Published: July 24, 2004 nytimes.com. Check out the Venezuela section of Trinity Center at http://www.trinicenter.com/world/venez.shtml ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1225

Media Constructed from Below
The event was very different than the one that we reported to you that included Juan Forero of the New York Times: This time, the reporters from Community ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1452

US Media: Chávez-Bashing of Old Begins Anew
Even New York Times correspondent Juan Forero—who has frequently quoted Shifter—could not help but notice (8/8/04) that residents of poor Caracas ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1374

The AFL-CIO's Role in Venezuela: Assessment and Debate
<11> Juan Forero, “Documents Show CIA Knew of a Coup Plot in Venezuela,” New York ... <24> Juan Forero, “Venezuela: Labor Chief Who Led Crippling Strike Is ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1506

Subverting Democracy in the Name of Democracy in Venezuela
Juan Forero and John Schwartz, “Venezuelan Recall is in Dispute Even Before the Vote,” Nytimes.com (June 11, ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1245

Venezuelanalysis.com - News - News and Analysis from Venezuela
by Juan Forero Published: July 24, 2004 nytimes.com. Check out the Venezuela section of Trinity Center at http://www.trinicenter.com/world/venez.shtml ...
venezuelanalysis.com/print.php?artno=1225

Venezuela President Continue to Dominate Polls for Recall ...
... "The polls - by the opposition and by the government - are often too close to call," said correspondent Juan Forero in the Aug 6th issue of The New York Times. ...
venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1329

Venezuelanalysis.com - News - News and Analysis from Venezuela
even New York Times correspondent Juan Forero—who has frequently quoted Shifter—could Not help but notice (8/8/04) that residents of poor Caracas ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/print.php?artno=1374

Venezuelanalysis.com - News - News and Analysis from Venezuela
... Julio Borges and Juan Fernandez got 9, 5 and 3 percent respectively. ... said correspondent Juan Forero in the Aug 6th issue of the new York Times. ...
venezuelanalysis.com/print.php?newsno=1329

Black Swans, Conspiracy Theories, and the Quixotic Search for ...
(See Forero, Juan. "Chávez Urges Deference for Electoral Board". The New York Times. Sept. 1, 2003). All of the preparations and execution of the fraud ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1281

Black Swans, Conspiracy Theories, and the Quixotic Search for ...
... It is worth noting that two of the five members of the CNE are staunchly pro-opposition. (See Forero, Juan. "Chávez Urges Deference for Electoral Board". ...
venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php/ articles.php?artno=1281

Two More Arrests and one More Death in the Case of Venezuelan ...
also, the Guevara brothers are said to be friends of Juan Carlos Sanchez, ... Vivas and Forero are currently seeking asylum in the Salvadoran Embassy (see: ...
www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1429

[SOS]

134. Thanks

I had no idea this guy was just another NYT corporate hack.
The article left me liking Chavez more than ever.
Apparently that was not the writer's intention.
Perhaps "21st Century Socialism" is meant to scare the ruling class perusing the Times.

[Andromeda]

118. Mr. Chavez should just chill out.

This isn't his country and he should just mind his own damn business.

[Judi Lynn]

119. Sad to see a couple of DU'ers are attempting to interject themselves

into the speech Hugo Chavez made to a Latin American audience. It has nothing to do with butting into Americans' rights to practice American customs. He doesn't want to snatch your candy.

It takes less time to read a damned article than to write a post gibbering in confusion about it.

Here's a short article from the Guardian:

Chávez urges ban on US 'terror game' Halloween

Associated Press in Caracas
Monday October 31, 2005
The Guardian

President Hugo Chávez yesterday urged Venezuelan parents not to let their children dress up as witches and ghouls for Halloween, calling it a "game of terror" - a US custom with no place in the South American country's cultural traditions.

Speaking during his weekly radio and television show, Mr Chávez said: "Families disguise their children as witches. That is contrary to our ways." A week ago, a dozen pumpkin lanterns and paper skeletons were left around the capital, Caracas, bearing anti-Chávez messages and what appeared to be bomb-like fuses.
(snip/)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1605283,00.html

[ebal]

121. He only wants to snatch his own country's candy

"What they have implanted here, which is really a 'gringo' custom, is terrorism," Chavez said, quoted in the local press. "They disguise children as witches and wizards, that is contrary to our culture."

" His comments came after authorities in Caracas recently seized pumpkins, cardboard skeleton costumes and other traditional Halloween items inscribed with anti-Chavez messages."


http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/051101005143.9f6752nt.html

[Judi Lynn]

124. So where does your article say Hugo Chavez had the anti-Chavez

treats confiscated?

Incidently, how far do you think people would get handing out anti-_Bush kiddie treats to the public in the U.S.?

[ebal]

129. anti-bush treats

So you are saying government agents would come to my house if I carved an anti-bush pumpkin and remove it just like Chavez's folks did? Do you live in this country? I can make any sort of pumpkin I want to and nobody will do anything about it. In fact you can go to google and search for "anti-bush pumpkins" and find them in all their glory.

Considering Chavez has a 77% approval rating in his country, surely he has no need to do such tactics.

Maybe he's attempting for the coveted Saddam 100% rating?

I wonder why he feels he needs to control any opposition voices?

[1932]

131. Didn't the article say the things seized were left in public places and

the pumpkins were made to look like bombs (even though they had messages that said they weren't bombs)?

[rinsd]

135. Hmmmm dissent against Chavez = Terrorists!

Where have I heard that one before...

Ohno the pumpkins were made to looks like bombs or that's what the government has said...

[malaise]

120. It's hard for you to understand

but Halloween has never been part of the culture of Latin America or the Caribbean. It is just a waste of money with no meaning or connection. The same is true of thanksgiving. Both are affectations with no substance.

[henslee]

125. And starting next week... NO MORE CASUAL FRIDAY - filthy Yankee custom.

[Judi Lynn]

126. In Venezuela, the oligarchy made sure EVERY day was a casual day.

for the exploited, abused, desperately poor majority. That's why Hugo Chavez's administration is trying hard to help them.

Here's a look at some of their casual homes:

[emad]

127. The curse of "Trick or Treat" may come to haunt him...

Never misunderestimate....

[froshty1960]

128. Halloween Opponents in the U.S.

I guess Sr. Chavez doesn't realize that many of Bush's fundie supporters oppose Halloween as an "un-Christian" pagan holiday that celebrates satan. Or maybe he thought this announcement might prevent another call by a fundie mouthpiece for his assassination... ;-)

[sufrommich]

139. I don't care how much you like this guy...

thats sounds like something the dictator in Woody Allen's"BANANAS"would have said.

[Bacchus39]

141. yeah definitely "bananas"

Chavez is just odd. he says all sorts of weird things. and some of his policies don't get the scrutiny they deserve here. let alone his wild accusations. the Chavezphiles are closed minded.

the guy I think is kind of interesting is Evo Morales from Bolivia. an indigenous man leader of the coca farmers. Now that is going to be fascinating.

[Judi Lynn]

144. Evo Morales likes Hugo Chavez very much.

_Bush's administration has been trying to "blame game" Hugo Chavez for the unrest in Bolivia.

This only encourages a lot of Democrats to start trying to find out more about Bolivia, and what's been going on there.

[Miss Chybil]

143. And classical music was banned after the communist revolution

in China. Why can't anything just be? Why does everything have to always go so radical? Give people the opportunity to care for themselves and their families in a dignified and comfortable fashion and leave the ideology to the gods. People just want to eat, sleep, make babies and have some fun. It's really not that complicated.

[Judi Lynn]

145. Venezuelans also don't want the U.S. underwriting coups of their

elected President, Hugo Chavez who FINALLY is getting desperately needed housing, food, medical treatment and education to the very, very poor who constitute a large majority of the population.

That's not at all complicated. Usually even a fool could recognize it.

[Miss Chybil]

147. Are you calling me a fool?

I recognize everything Chavez has done for his people. My point is zealotry has a tendency to overshadow good - no matter what flavor it comes in. Is he becoming over-zealous? Time will tell, I suppose. The Chinese peasants were happy to have jobs, food and respect then they were taken aback by the power the "working masses" took over their lives. Everything in moderation. That's not foolish.

[Bridget Burke]

149. Chavez did not say that Halloween should be BANNED

Sounds like the writers of headlines are trying to make him look bad.

Reading linked articles before commenting on them is NOT foolish.

[Deja Q]

146. Does Chavez suggest children dress their families up like witches?

:rofl:

j/k

I think that if Chavez wants to irritate *co, he can find better things to do. Or at least sound more concrete about his reservations on the issue.

What is wrong with Halloween? People wear fancy dress, go to parties, and socialize (or try to socialize). What's the problem?!