Unrest caused by bad economy may require military action, report says

[douglas9]

Source: El Paso Times

EL PASO -- A U.S. Army War College report warns an economic crisis in the United States could lead to massive civil unrest and the need to call on the military to restore order.

Retired Army Lt. Col. Nathan Freir wrote the report "Known Unknowns: Unconventional Strategic Shocks in Defense Strategy Development," which the Army think tank in Carlisle, Pa., recently released.

"Widespread civil violence inside the United States would force the defense establishment to reorient priorities ... to defend basic domestic order and human security," the report said, in case of "unforeseen economic collapse," "pervasive public health emergencies," and "catastrophic natural and human disasters," among other possible crises.

The report also suggests the new (Barack Obama) administration could face a "strategic shock" within the first eight months in office.

Read more: http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_11326744

[LynnTheDem]

1. Wake up, America.

Wake the fuck up...fast.

[crikkett]

20. suggest a course of action. wake up and do what?

thanks.

[subsuelo]

57. My first recommendation - turn off the major tv networks

Start getting your news and information from

Democracy Now
Link TV
DU :)
AlterNet
Znet

thats just for starters.

[jberryhill]

87. Wake up and read a bunch of websites?

Can I have coffee first?

[damntexdem]

92. You'd better -- they may not let you have any after.

[jberryhill]

94. So when I can't read them, I'll know it happened, right?

Look, I've been hearing about the fascist military takeover since the Reagan administration.

I'll check back here in Latest Breaking News when it happens. I doubt I'll need five different websites to tell me about it.

But, for the sake of argument... okay, I wake up and read those websites.

Is that it? Can I get back to working on my novel now?

[Uncle Joe]

115. For your novel, I would suggest "The Grapes of Wrath 21st Century Style"

I suppose you could call it "Century 21 The Grapes of Wrath" but that sounds too much like a pissed off real estate company.

[superconnected]

123. Do you know how many countries have fallen into far worse?

Don't think because we haven't had it yet, it's not a possibility.

One thing consistent in history, is change.

[jberryhill]

179. I haven't been hit by a bus yet, either

But beyond reading those websites, is there any other suggestion?

[ACTION BASTARD]

122. When they outlaw coffee--only outlaws will have coffee. Then you'll see!

Oh yes! How you will see!

[rhett o rick]

181. You're just trying to scare me now. Plez don't let them take my coffee. nm

[KakistocracyHater]

153. govorners pass legislation banning military activities

on American soil/in their state; do this at the Mayoral level if necessary. Invoke Posse Comitatus Act(sp?)

[damntexdem]

91. Wake up and smell the napalm?

Hey, look at the bright side: they ARE trying to prepare us for the coup. ;-)

[CoffeeCat]

146. Sometimes I can't tell....

...what they're doing.

Sometimes I really wonder if they're just releasing this information to make us go, "AAAAHHHHHHHHH!"

Who knows.

[volstork]

200. "prepare us for the coup"?

The coup happened in 1963. Most people just haven't realized it yet....

[Leftest]

103. And They Have Concentration Camps Already Built and Waiting

Aerial shot of 500000 plastic coffins at one of these cites.




A closer up view.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

132. Interestingly...

A guy was telling me, the other day, that his son worked on a large construction project at the Tobyhanna PA Army/GSA Depot, which has a shitload of rail links going into it and he said that what they built could be nothing but a concentration camp. A huge one.

On the other hand, I am the kind of person who would like to see it for himself, before getting all moist about it.

[CoffeeCat]

147. I'm not scared...

I loved camp as a child.

I especially excelled at whittling and billfold making.

[defendandprotect]

158. This couldn't possibly happen in America --- our citizens have guns---!!

[rhett o rick]

164. Plez tell me you're being scarcastic. In NO all the macho gun toten hombres

gave their guns to the National Guard when they came for them. Not a shot was fired. Remember Ruby Ridge, when the government came, guns didn't do them any good, nor for David Koresh and the Branch Davidians.

Having a gun might make you feel invincible but it's only a fantasy.

[defendandprotect]

171. Yes . . . sarcasm --- and I try to keep pointing out what you're saying . . .

What they'll end up doing most likely is killing innocent people they

think are a threat to them--!!

[rhett o rick]

180. Thanks, I am not always sharp enough to catch sarcasm. nm

[bdamomma]

176. they would be overunned by the American people.

there are more of us than them.

[rhett o rick]

178. Of course, so they won't come for all of us at once. First they will come for the immigrants.

And we will remain silent.
We are not immigrants.

Then they will come for the gays
and most will remain silent
For most are not gay

Then they will come for the "secular progressives" and liberals
again most will remain silent

Then the union members.

Then the teachers.

Then the intellectuals.

And finally the gulllibles stand alone.

[earcandle]

184. "you gullibility is rancid, it needs repair"

is a line straight out of

Get Out

I am afraid they have planned our third world demise much like others they have carried out,
but you know what, we Americans are more independent thinking than most. We know when to play,
and when a bad grade "B" movie is being triggered. It is hard to get America to react
as a whole to anything that doesn't have our public interest at heart.

That said, I think we better just take care of our food and water situation and lay low
until Obama pulls us out of this "thirty years in the making nose dive" the GOP has been lusting
over since they have been in Office. I remember someone telling me Reagan was the President who was charged with causing the bankruptcy of America in some book he commissioned. Now that we are finally having the "planned" collapse, we come in the nick of time with a new President who can make a sweeping reversal and pull us out of this, if he will.

The gullible will be shocked out of their sleep, and Adam will finally wake up.

[rhett o rick]

185. W/o getting to pessimistic, I think the task is too large for Obama. The American Aristocrats own

vertically everything, especially Congress. In the last eight years Congress has done nothing to slow down the progression to a third world country. Actually we shouldn't even expect otherwise, as most, if not all, Congress-critters are members in good standing of the American Aristocracy. I think things will have to get bad enough before we see working class Americans rise up. I am hoping that when those that supported Obama do rise up, the millions of gullibles will wake up and recognize whose side they need to be on.

It's time for a new declaration of independence.

[defendandprotect]

186. Control is carried out for the elites by . . . .

hierarchies --- and co-opted leadership.

[jwirr]

203. Especially since those "long emergencies" seem to be sneaking up

on us pretty fast.

[lostnotforgotten]

2. See Soviet View of Same - Their View US Will Dissolve Due To Civil War

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x411848

[TomClash]

7. I think the Soviet Union dissolved first

Written by an academic who knows little about America. I guess he read "The Nine Nations of North America" and updated it.

[wolfgangmo]

194. Actually according to what I read

That russian is an expert on America and has tons of research to back up his claims.

All of which is not to say it will happen, but he is not a crank or charlatan.

[TomClash]

198. Don't bet the ranch on it

And always be wary of Russian experts - especially when it concerns the US.

[hlthe2b]

3. I hope all those new military recruits are prepared to kill Americans

because that appears to be where this is all headed...:mad: Tienamen's Square, anyone?

[truedelphi]

76. The official CIA web site used to have a listing in which it

Discussed how important it was to figure out a way to motivate people in the Armed Services to detain or kill their fellow American citizens.

This was circa early 2002. I think that by sending thousands of Americans to fight endlesly in Iraq, routinely kicking in the doors of the families there, and hauling the Iraqis off to prison where they were abused, also by Americans, that our military is currently equipped psychologically.

As long as we are labelled terrorists, of course. Or looters. Or whatever (Don't forget that the poice fired on people in NO - based on skin color. White people foraging in stores for bread and milk - they were people looking out for their families.

Black people doing the same were "looters" and there was a 'shoot to kill' order out.)

[dixiegrrrrl]

86. You are not as tin foil as I used to think you were.

:hi:

[truedelphi]

101. oh I am indeed rather "tin foil"

But reality has showed itself to be even more "tin foil"

:toast:

[OwnedByFerrets]

93. To be completely honest, many of them have no problem

killing children.....is it a stretch to believe they would have a problem killing americans? I dont think that the same ones who would commit this horror would hesitate to kill us.


http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20040504_1.htm

[katty]

98. nope--not a hard stretch to comtemplate

[Fire1]

107. More than you know. They DID IT in 1967 Detroit riots.

[spotbird]

133. Kent State. nt

[bvar22]

159. New Orleans

!

[wolfgangmo]

195. YOu mean the new skinhead aryan and gangbanger troops?

Those troops. I don't think they will have a problem blasting people.

Thanks Mr. Bush. I feel much safer now.

[Pale Blue Dot]

4. Read The Shock Doctrine.

Naomi Klein's been right about everything so far.

[Dover]

8. Can you summarize what she said about economic/natural disaster and

civil unrest?

[Pale Blue Dot]

12. She cites Central America in the 70's, and Russia in the 90's

(as well as others) of examples of Milton Friedman's neoliberal economic polices (unfettered capitalism without regulation) brought to their natural conclusion: huge disparities of wealth, followed by economic collapse, followed by civil unrest that is violently repressed by the government. She lays out each case in detail, using facts and sober analysis. She closes the book by predicting our own economic collapse (she wrote the book 2 years ago, and noting that because of 9/11 and our spineless Democrats, we have given the President the power to declare martial law in the case of a "national emergency."

I highly recommend that you read it. She uses facts and evidence to make her points rather than resorting to hyperbolic accusations and wild conjecture.

[CoffeeCat]

148. You know what is really curious about all of this?

Bush only has 22 days left before he is history.

The neocons spent decades, trying to get into power. It was a struggle, but slowly they metastasized into
our government, and they've called the shots for the past eight years.

Obama won. Are they really going to give up power?

Will they really go quietly away, after finally getting into power? If Obama unravels their damage, most of them
will never live to see another neocon takeover. It will be a few decades before it could happen again.

It just makes you wonder... Will they leave? Will some "event" happen before Jan 20? Or, once Obama is in, will
they somehow control the shots, behind the scenes or otherwise?

I don't see these people saying, "Ok, we're done with our evil, murdering, torture and subversion of the Constitution.
We'll go away and try to get into power some other day." That makes less sense than anything else.

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm...

[defendandprotect]

154. Agree, especially with your conclusion . . . wouldn't be like them--!!!

[Hydra]

160. It should be interesting to watch

Obama has already hinted that he's going to let them go, so maybe they'll just dig into the woodwork and let Obama play Bill Clinton for 4-8 years before they come back worse than before, and their progress made during Bush's term not rolled back.

[Usrename]

174. If they do let Obama play, I'll be very relieved.

The relevant question may be "What will Joe Biden do?"

[PassingFair]

187. Do you think there are no Chicago School Economic advocates in the DLC?

What makes you think they gave up power?

[kenfrequed]

199. Hah.

The DLC democrats are as hardline Chicago-Freidmanites as any republican. Hell, there are a very few republicans that are less 'free market ubber alles' than the DLC.

Nope. Without some serious earthshaking new-deal style changes this economy is going to continue to implode.

[PassingFair]

201. They wouldn't mind going after us with cattle-prods water hoses, either.

Just like Republicans, their ends justify their means.

DLC dems backed TORTURE.

[Seldona]

193. Bush stocked civil service positions.

For some reason not yet clear to me, Obama is supposedly going to have a hard time getting rid of these people. At least that is the consensus on what I have read to far.

Are they really going away at all?

[rainy]

183. Klein also says that the purpose of it all is to break the country so that it

sells off all of its natural resources and public works to private industries.

[man4allcats]

73. You beat me to it.

I just recently started reading it, and reports like this one sound like they're right out of her book. Pinochet's military dictatorship in Chile relied heavily on "Friedmanesque" shock treatments to establish itself.

"The theories of Milton Friedman gave him the Nobel Prize; they gave Chile General Pinochet." - Eduardo Galeano, Days and Nights of Love and War, 1983 as quoted in Naomi Klein's THE SHOCK DOCTRINE: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, p. 73, Metropolitan Books, 2007.

[biopowertoday]

5. The title conjurs up images of Rummy.

[Snazzy]

14. it's like a Rummy shit sandwich

Heavily buttered wonderbread (a known, known who buttered it) wrapped around heapin' stinkin' slice each of Rove and Poindexter bullshit.

[47of74]

6. They want that too

They want an excuse to indulge their psychotic urges.

[Wilber_Stool]

9. This has been going on for over

30 years. I was trained in crowd/riot control at Fort Riley in Kansas back in '70 '71. We were even ordered to go on to the campus of Kansas State to provide security for a speech Nixon was to give. We refused, he never came. I don't think we'll be so lucky this time.

[islandmkl]

51. your memory is a little faulty...

http://www.kansasmemory.org/item/212642/page/1

President Richard Nixon and Governor Robert Docking
A black and white photo of President Richard Nixon and Governor Robert Docking at Kansas State University for the Landon Lecture Series, Manhattan, Kansas, on September 16, 1970. Nixon titled his speech "It's Time to Stand up and Be Counted". Accompanying the President from his speech are from left to right: First Lady Pat Nixon, Theo Landon, former Governor Alf Landon, Governor Docking, and Kansas' First Lady Merideth Docking.

Date: September 16, 1970
Creator: Stauffer Publications

i remember the day well...a bunch of us Kansas University 'radicals' joined up with some like-minded folks at KSU (where the speech was given) and did our best to let dick know exactly how we felt...several arrests, etc...

the attorney-general of kansas at the time (vern miller, a neocon's wetdream) called out the national guard several times during those days...and Kent State put Lawrence, KS (Kansas University) in total lockdown for days with national guards patrolling, curfews, shooting, burning, etc...

[crimsonblue]

70. It's the University of Kansas... not Kansas University...

:P

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. Rock Chalk!

http://www.ku.edu/about/traditions/songs/rockchalk.mp3

[islandmkl]

141. a minor point...based only on the university's OFFICIAL designation...

EVERYBODY knows the University of Kansas is KU for reference...

after all...those other schools who think they have basketball history...Kentucky and North Carolina...have their successful roots with Phog Allen and the KU Jayhawks...

Kansas is KU...Kentucky is UK...

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. Vern Miller - what a flash from the past !

Remember when he wanted to arrest stewardesses for serving drinks while their plane was in Kansas airspace? LOL

[islandmkl]

142. i can remember like it was yesterday when we were all massed outside of the Student Union...

the crowd was pissed off and restless....Vern Miller had state police riot squads in formation in a face-off with us protestors....

the helmet-shield-wearing-gas mask equipped-baton-wielding police were all lined up, several rows deep...there was some animated discourse between Vern and the leaders of the protest, when all of the sudden he just turned around and headed back into the rows of the police...

who immediately charged the crowd, firing tear gas and swinging their batons at any-and-everybody...it was quite a melee...

then, in the next couple of days, this (from the University of Kansas Campus Building Directory):

An arson fire April 20, 1970, believed to be another protest action in that turbulent spring, gutted the two upper floors of the original central section and caused more than $1 million in damage, but repairs were completed the next year.

it was wild, crazy and a little more than non-violent on the campus and throughout Lawrence after Kent State...

Vern wanted Nixon to notice him...and he would have fit right in...what an asshole...

[MadMaddie]

10. This kind of action could turn the local police departments

against the military. This coud be very bad.

[defendandprotect]

27. Our police officers are looking more and more like military . . ..

[eowyn_of_rohan]

40. More militaristic types are seemingly attracted to it these days

a-holes, bullies, and power-seekers

[cyberpj]

79. see my post #78

local police departments are turning into the military
trained by mercenaries

[wolfgangmo]

196. Most local police departments have been screening ...

... for ex military when they hire. They want sociopathic aggressives in their police. Haven't you noticed that most police forces gave up on community policing where a cop walks a beat many decades ago and put in its place a military like rapid response model.

Don't count on the cops. The ones I worked with knew there was a constitution but couldn't tell you what it said for the life of them. They will follow orders and mace/tazer/frag your ass.

[TomClash]

11. Typically imaginative military thinking

A crisis in the first eight months. Like Bush and 9/11?

Yes, catastrophic natural and human disasters can lead to civil unrest. Duh.

Professor Boehmer is right - the War College and Rand write contingencies on everything.

The NORTHCOM division is troubling though.

[HooptieWagon]

13. Posse Comititus

While chimpboy thinks the constitution is only worth wiping his ass with, I do think Obama will uphold it, and will respond to any civil unrest in a thoughtful, measured, and appropriate manner.

[tama]

24. Nah

You will see horrible police brutality against best of America on 20th. And we will see many DUers justify and defend "their" state violence against people. Not hard to predict... :/

[Leftest]

89. You keep telling yourself that

n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. Translation: Capitalism in crisis always produces direct class struggle

Which is, in turn, always the object of direct state repression in the form of military and police apparatus intervention. Nothing these great United States hasn't seen before, approximately every 20-40 years as the capitalist cycle falls once again into open crisis.

The bourgeoisie has been resting complacently on their own invention of "non-violence."

Needless to say, the militarization of the police apparatus has been ongoing for 50+ years, and was mobilized specifically to attend to the class uprisings in the urban ghettoes during the 1960's, and the brutal attack of the capitalists on workers that was called neo-liberalism. The prison industrial complex already tells us that a war against the working class is at a high stage of violence in America already, but the bourgeoisie (including many so-called "crime fighting" liberals on this very board!) are shielded from the worst excesses of state violence because they are restricted in class territories.

[jus_the_facts]

21. It was used in 2005 in New Orleans......

"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," she said. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will."
Friday, September 2, 2005; 7:23 AM

NEW ORLEANS -- An explosion jolted residents awake early Friday, illuminating the pre-dawn sky with red and orange flames over the city where corpses rotted along flooded sidewalks and bands of armed thugs thwarted fitful rescue efforts.

Congress was rushing through a $10.5 billion aid package, the Pentagon promised 1,400 National Guardsmen a day to stop the looting and President Bush planned to visit the region. But city officials were seething with anger about what they called a slow federal response following the devastation left by Hurricane Katrina.



A SWAT team drives past flood victims waiting at the Convention Center in New Orleans, Thursday, Sept. 1, 2005. Officials called for a mandatory evacuation of the city, but many resident remained in the city and had to be rescued from flooded homes and hotels and remain in the city awaiting a way out. (AP Photo/Eric Gay) (Eric Gay - AP)
"They don't have a clue what's going on down there," Mayor Ray Nagin told WWL-AM Thursday night.

[BelgianMadCow]

81. Thanks for posting. I find that picture iconic

and very very sad.

[jus_the_facts]

95. You're welcome....and I agree....

...it makes me sick to see it but I keep it close...so we NEVER FORGET...anything is possible. :(

[Somawas]

120. Yep.

Remember the Battle of Blair Mountain. A day in labor history that should cause shame to all federal law enforcement and military agencies.

[dbackjon]

16. Glad that Bush/Cheney will no longer be C-in-C

[madamesilverspurs]

19. Unless...

unless Bush/Cheney stage some riots, creating an excuse to impose martial law. Wouldn't be the first time they've staged stuff.

[Baby Snooks]

55. They don't need to now...

They are at Obama's table along with all the others an overwhelming number of Americans no longer wanted at the table.

Obama turns to Gates and asks, "How can we handle the unrest?" Gates replies, "Let me call Bush and Cheney and see what they want to do."

We were screwed regardless of whether Obama or Clinton became president. Time for people to wake up finally and try to stop it before it starts.

Obama needs to clear the table. Of the Clintons as well as Bush and Cheney.

[crimsonblue]

71. that wouldn't work

The president does not have the right to prevent the oath-of-office from taking place.

[The_Casual_Observer]

17. The millitary is always inventing new uses for itself. Otherwise

they'd be tempted to cut back the whole motherfucker.

[elleng]

38. "The Military" is who?

.

[tama]

49. A self-preserving structue

[Posteritatis]

50. Those three million individuals are just a hive mind, you see (nt)

[The_Casual_Observer]

62. The shits that create studies like the subject of this thread. That's who.

[elleng]

105. dupe

.

[elleng]

106. Right, and I'd like to get some

'good guys' to look at this (like General Clark.)

[davsand]

74. My thought too. WHAT Military?

I'm not meaning to be disparaging in any way, but I'm seriously wondering just WHO they think they are gonna mobilize to put down these riots?

I think that there would be serious questions about Posse Comitatus that would keep a lot of folks from playing the game, and I also think our stateside military is pretty thin right now anyway with so many folks deployed out of country.

Maybe I'm not seeing it because I choose not to, but this whole thing sounds more like some "exercise" rather than any sort of actual plan.


Laura

[cyberpj]

78. Blackwater Training US Police (list)

This article is from 2007, I'm sure they've spread their tactics far and wide since then.

I fear the increased violence used dealing with protestors, even war vets, could have something to do with this federally approved way for states to spend their homeland security funds.

I fear even more the implications of nationwide training of law enforcement by this particular contractor that does not appear to be subject to standard US laws.


Blackwater Training US Police

snip-
On October 14, the Washington Post ran a story, which included photographs from Blackwater's Moyock training center. However, what was most intriguing was a photograph of a police and military patch board at Blackwater's headquarters that indicated the police agencies that have sent their officers to Moyock for training.

Blackwater is secretive about its non-federal, as well as its foreign clients, which the Post pointed out includes Jordan, Azerbaijan, and Burkina Faso, but a WMR inspection of the photograph of the police agencies has yielded the following list of agencies that have used Blackwater for training:

1. Iowa Department of Natural Resources
2. Maricopa County, Arizona Sheriff's Department
3. Matthews, North Carolina Police
4. Atlanta Police
5. Chillicothe, Ohio Police
6. Charleston, South Carolina Police
7. Port Chester, NY Police
8. Highland, Indiana Police
9. Unalaska, Alaska Police
10. Metropolitan Washington, DC Police
11. Charlottesville, Virginia Police
12. Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority (Dulles and Reagan National Airports)
13. St. Louis County Police (Missouri)
14. Queen Anne's County, Maryland Police
15. Prince George's County, Maryland Police
16. FBI SWAT Team
17. Gloucester Township, New Jersey Police
18. Tempe, Arizona Police
19. New York Police Department
20. Yonkers, New York Police
21. Fairfax County, Virginia Police
22. Maplewood, New Jersey Police
23. Gastonia, North Carolina Police
24. Tampa Police
25. U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)
26. DeKalb County, Georgia Police
27. Arlington County, Virginia Police
28. Baltimore Police
29. U.S. Coast Guard
30. Suffolk, Virginia Police
31. Franklin City, Virginia Police
32. Milford, Delaware Police
33. University of Texas Police
34. Norfolk, Virginia Police
35. Ottawa-Carleton, Canada Police
36. San Bernardino County, California Sheriff
37. Plattsburgh, New York Police
38. Chicago Police Department
39. Oregon State Police
40. Los Angeles Police Department
41. Tonawanda, New York Police
42. Special Forces of Colombia
43. Jacksonville, North Carolina Police
44. Harvey Cedars, New Jersey Police
45. Elmira, New York Police
46. Department of Corrections, New Jersey
47. Lexington, Kentucky Police
48. Willimantic, Connecticut Police
49. Georgia Department of Law Enforcement
50. City of Fairfax, Virginia Police
51. Alexandria, Virginia Police Special Operations
52. Illinois State Police
53. Dallas, Texas Police
54. Hamilton, Ohio Police
55. Morganton, North Carolina Police

A number of the police departments that have been trained by Blackwater have abysmal civil rights and police brutality records, most notably the Chicago Police and Illinois State Police, both cited by former Illinois Governor George Ryan as being guilty of police misconduct in his decision to commute the death sentences of Illinois' death row inmates. It was a decision that likely had much to do with his indictment by the Bush administration on corruption charges -- political misuse of the Department of Justice that has been seen in the indictments and investigations of Alabama former Democratic Governor Don Siegelman and HealthSouth former CEO Richard Scrushy, Qwest's former CEO Joseph Nacchio, Democratic campaign contributor Martha Stewart, Coastal Corporation's former Chairman and Democratic contributor Oscar Wyatt, and Democratic-leaning trial attorneys around the United States, as well as the firings of several U.S. Attorneys who refused to engage in political prosecutions, and a Justice Department workup on North Carolina presidential candidate John Edwards in 2004.

snip-

Citizens have a distinct opportunity of confronting their local elected city, county, and town officials over Blackwater training of their police officers. Local officials should be pressured to reveal the numbers and identities of officers trained by Blackwater, the subjects covered by the training, the revenues spent, and a public demand should be made to cease and desist in such training.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f0b_1192588579

[dothemath]

90. a little reality, please ..............

I am not trying to disparage you in any way, madam, but four mess cooks from your local National Guard armed with M-16s and a few toys could wipe out a town of several thousand - and then go home and have supper.

[elleng]

108. Well,

disparage you do.

[awoke_in_2003]

143. Yes, it is probably just some exercise...

but how many enlisted men even know what Posse Comitatus is about? Also, wouldn't take many well trained troops to create havoc. Couple that with the fact that Blackwater's contracts in Iraq are not going to be renewed.

[Cha]

206. Agree.

Won't that motherfucker be disappointed when the US citizens and the Democratic admin handles bush's shit on their own.

[Libertas1776]

18. ...

I don't remember society as a whole descending into a point of total unrest that required mass military action during the Great Depression. This is total BS.

[John Q. Citizen]

26. A number of places utilized the national guard. Federal Troops were used

to end the Bonus March.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/picturing_the_century/galleries/greatdep.html

[tama]

28. This is not 1929

Much worse and/or better. This is the beginning of the end of capitalism - and they will try open fascism, Mad Max and anything to fight people - before their own greed brings them down.

[defendandprotect]

30. What can we do to speed that "beginning of the end of capitalism" along . . . ???

[tama]

45. Tune in, drop out...

others may have even better ideas. What "proactive" anarchist do is not my style but ain't condemning it either.

[defendandprotect]

151. Personally, I think capitalism is leaning towards suicide. . . .

[tama]

156. No argument there. n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. You don't remember because you're ignorant

The US Army was used to clear the Bonus March from the capital.

National guard units were frequently used to break strikes, with the Minneapolis Teamsters strike of 1934 being just one example.

[byronius]

39. Don't forget the Ride Of Douglas MacArthur.

He rode a horse into the Bonus Marcher camp, slashing indiscriminately with a saber at anyone near, slicing off the ear of one of the Marchers. Eisenhower was his aide at the time, and disapproved of the method, if not the general sentiment.

[Libertas1776]

43. alcibiades_mystery

I KNOW about the Bonus Army and Hoover's military intervention, and a young Macarthur ordering the burning of the veteran's camps, as well as the numerous labor strikes, so don't be calling me ignorant.

State militias, national guards, and even federal troops have been called out plenty of times in our nation's history, including during the great depression, but not to a "doomsday fascist" scenario point where governments were overturned and martial law was declared permanently across the nation because of the economy. Your the ignorant ones if you are comparing the present economic situation to the depths of the Great Depression. We're fucked as it is, but when I see unemployment nearing 25% and bread lines a mile long, then you can compare.

[fudge stripe cookays]

139. It'll approach 9% next year...

and if things keep going the way they're going, 25% will not be far behind.

Don't be naive.

[Common Sense Party]

191. If by "don't be naive" you mean, "don't be grounded in reality"

or you mean "you must be paranoid, pessimistic, and expect--nay, hope for--economic Armageddon"

[fudge stripe cookays]

207. No, I mean...

just keep your fingers in your ears and sing that little song.

Everything will be JUST fine.

:eyes:

[.... callchet ....]

165. Unemployment

There were 12,000,000 unemployed during the height of the great depression and there already 10,000,000 unemployed now.

[Common Sense Party]

190. What was the total U.S population at the height of the Depression?

[.... callchet ....]

197. Population

125,000,000 Poplulation 1933 .A big problem I have is with percentile representation of numbers and big number interpretation. For instance a 2 % pay raise is meaningless. It quells the less fortunate because the realization is that they are getting paid the same as everybody. As far as big numbers, numbers have to represent something so that people can understand how big they really are. For instance the 750 billion dollar bailout seems relatively innocuous in itself, but when you realize you can buy seven million five hundred thousand porsche 911 turbos for that price, it should start to have a wait a minute effect. I hope.

[Common Sense Party]

202. Fine, but you have to admit that 12 million unemployed out of 125 M in 1933

was a much bigger societal crisis than having 10 million today unemployed out of more than 300 million.

[happyslug]

112. They are talking in terms of the General Strike of 1877 NOT the Great Depression

The General Strike of 1877 has been called the closet thing to a Communist Revolution that has ever incurred in the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Railroad_Strike_of_1877
http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/uen_1877.html

During that Strike a Worker's Committee ran St Louis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1877_Saint_Louis_general_strike

The worse violence happened in Pittsburgh, PA. The modern Equivalent to Pittsburgh of 1877 is Silicon Valley, an area of high return on investments and where the latest technology was to be obtained and funded. Here is a thread on this subject from a few years ago, with reference to various cites regarding the General Strike of 1877:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4620140#4621518

Comparing this with the French Commune of 1871 and the Iranian Revolution of 1979:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1353026#1353673

[Donnachaidh]

119. That society in the 30's is worlds apart from what we've become

After all, we've had at least two generations brought up on the idea that violence is okay, if you are wronged. Proof -- VA Tech and Columbine.

[happyslug]

216. It did in 1877, the height of the previous Great Depression

General Overview:
http://libcom.org/history/1877-the-great-railroad-strike
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Railroad_Strike
http://www.explorepahistory.com/hmarker.php?markerId=652
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/great-railway-strike.htm
http://www.pittsburghaflcio.org/rrstrike.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=2Za8lifq1mYC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=Pennsylvania+National+Guard+General+Strike+of+1877&source=web&ots=T4MPp9Qhn3&sig=DNSYI2UuLrujc2XvYEm1rvrTUVA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA4,M1

St Louis actually had a communist Government for a few months in 1877
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1877_Saint_Louis_general_strike

Chicago:
http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1037.html

And the worse in Pittsburgh, the Silicon Valley of the time period:
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=224

Detail history of the Strike, including the Shooting of the Strikers by the Philly Militia and the subsequent Stacking of Arms of the Pittsburgh Militia and their movement back home after the shooting:
http://www.plp.org/labhist/wlpittsb1877.pdf

[nashville_brook]

22. so says the Army War College -- in other news, bad economy might spur vast innovation...

or never-before seen community-building projects, or the return of barter.

what a load.

[defendandprotect]

32. Anyone mentioning Re-Regulation of capitalism yet . . . .

It should be re-regulated so strongly that it puts it out of business . . .

[Democrats_win]

23. "The need to restore order?" Who says there is such a need?

Rich people? Wall Street Frauds? Bankers we bailed out?

"The need to restore order" sounds like a dictatorship to me.

There will be no such need.

[tama]

31. No such need

[bstender]

33. don't be so sure

It is a long way off, but not completely out of the question, that the US economy will collapse. That means runaway inflation and massive job loss. if people get hungry enough, they WILL go get what they need. One of the prime directives of government, if not the sole reason for its existence, is to protect the property rights of those with property. (the more property you have, the more government protection you receive) Sad, but that is the state of the jungle circa 2008.

[tama]

48. It's inevitable

only question is when and how exactly. That's what Ponzi schemes do, collapse.

[crimsonblue]

72. you must be ignorant

inflation is not a risk at all. We are in a deflationary period. The price of goods and services is going down and purchasing power is rising.

[bstender]

144. ignorant?

i always know i'm dealing with a weak argument when it starts off like that:>

and what do you know, this one's easy; we are in a deflationary period at this time, you are correct...but notice that i didn't say we are in an inflationary period currently. (things tend to change)

and things are changing and we are in a precarious time. current policy is to counteract this deflationary trend and to do so we are following expansionary policies. to whit; forcing interest rates down to the floor, printing money at a great clip, trying to force banks to lend, expanding the deficit and otherwise attempting to stimulate rather than allowing deflation to complete its course. that policy has the potential of going too far and destroying confidence entirely, creating runaway inflation. (though i was careful to say that we are still far from that situation). the result of which is a complete collapse of the currency, economy and general mayhem.

[crimsonblue]

155. allowing deflation to run its course means another depression

deflation is much more dangerous than inflation. Deflation has caused all of the greatest economic crises in our country's history. Also, sorry about calling you ignorant-- it's been a long day.

[bstender]

169. wuteryagonnado

Giant bubbles are fun for the wealthy folks, leading inevitably to bursting bubble-causing depressions. definately not fun, especially for the poor. An economic hangover if you will. But such is the wonderful world of the Federal Reserve.

Just more rapage by the ruling class, whateryagonna do? complain on internet message boards...

[SlowDownFast]

189. You are the ignorant one

if you indeed think inflation is no risk at all, despite that we are in deflation mode now.

First deflation, then inflation.

Do some Googling and you'll find plenty of adequate, credible sources that propose this. It's one of the most proposed theories out there currently.

[defendandprotect]

25. Like landmines set to go off after Bushco departs . . . .

[PassingFair]

29. There's that WORD again:

SHOCK

Retired Army Lt. Col. Nathan Freir wrote the report "Known Unknowns: Unconventional Strategic SHOCKS in Defense Strategy Development," which the Army think tank in Carlisle, Pa., recently released.

Yes, I'm finally reading "The Shock Doctrine".
These situations forming are probably no accident.

I think they have deliberately bankrupted our
country.

I don't know how Obama fits into the picture,
(and his "financial team" leaves me nervous)
but I am hoping for the best.

[defendandprotect]

34. "I think they have deliberately bankrupted our country" . . . Agree ---

[bluestateguy]

36. That's why the Founders (most of them) did not want a permanent standing army

They feared it would be more likely to be used against the American people, rather than a foreign enemy.

And they appear to have been right: the Whiskey Rebellion in 1794, the Pullman Strike in 1894, the Bonus Army march in 1932, and other examples too numerous to mention.

[Hydra]

162. The US started where it is ending

Shay's rebellion was caused by banks swindling the people doing the work- and the Federalists used it as an excuse to create a central gov't.

More than 200 years later, the banks are using our treasury as an ATM and the military to protect themselves.

How far we've come...

[Thothmes]

175. Dont forget that

the Army occupied and administered the states of the old Confederacy for up to 10 years after the civil war. The impetus behind the Posse Comitatus laws was from Southern legislaters. Of course, because of posse comitatus, the South was free to impose Jim Crow law throughtout the South. Safe in the knowledge that they would not have to deal with the Army. JMO.

[elleng]

37. "BE AFRAID,

BE VERY AFRAID."

Heard this before?

[jus_the_facts]

96. Ever see this before?

....shit happens...and repercussions do as well.

[madrchsod]

41. pullman strike..federal troops were used..

even though they were not requested.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

42. The author is a retired general

He's jacking off, trying to justify his own existence, looking to make a fuss, even quoting Rumsfeld, who is probably one of his heroes.

Why doesn't retirement mean they don't go to War College any more?

Rabblerouser. Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[treestar]

44. Oh, it will not

Everyone knows what is going on these days. Everyone will know something is being done.

Typical Bush Administration excuses for more military might. Can't wait until they become irrelevant.

[acmavm]

46. Wow! Maybe when we're in the streets because we're all broke,

homeless and hungry we'll see what kind of Americans our military is really made up of. Will they attack American citizens? Will they kill for corporate Amurika?

[awoke_in_2003]

145. "Will they attack American citizens?"

They are, right now, being conditioned, in Iraq, to see dead civilians. Will they attack? Some, no. Most, yes.

[dixiegrrrrl]

47. Amazing ability to foretell the future, ya think?

We have gone from " No one couldhave possibly foreseen.... ( fill in the blank)
to
" This is what is going to happen and when, and we will be all prepared and ready and right there when it does".

Amazing. What a learning curve.

Made possible if you happen to be both architect and first responder to the incident.

[bertman]

58. Velly interesting, Dixiegrrrrl. I think you're on to something.

[rucky]

99. Dixiegrrl wins a cupie doll!

[dixiegrrrrl]

111. what? Didn't quite catch that.

had chopsticks in my ears...

[Fire1]

52. If there have been no riots and/or civil unrests behind the

catastrofies and injustices within the last eight years, I am convinced there will be none in the future and no need for military intervention.

[JamesJ]

53. It's Happened before

I'm reading an graphic non-fiction book, "A People's History of American Empire", by Howard Zinn, Paul Buhle and Mike Konopacki.

It's a graphic version of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States".

Both books need to be required reading. They document how whenever the rich feel threatened or feel their profits threatened by the working class they convince the government to call out the army to kill Americans until the people get back in line.

Here and abroad the army has consistently been used to force the will of the rich on this country and the world. Do you really think Iraq happened just because Bush wanted to impress his daddy or could it have been the oil companies wanting to get back into the country and in control?

Our question is, if people take to the streets to demand their rights, if Walmart employees demand to be unionized or the mine workers and auto workers strike will Obama follow his predecessors and use the army to protect the rich's investments?

[Kashka-Kat]

54. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NATL GUARD????????????????

Dumb ass reporters always ignore history, leave out the most germane points - no mention that this used to be function of natl guard under command of state govt and that the policy using federalized troops on US soil at the command of the president is actually a new development.

Hmmm well maybe I just dreamed that! Guess it was always like that huh?

How convenient too that we now have the legal groundwork laid to equate civil disobedience with terrorism/ terrorist sympathizers/ enemy combatants and the structure is in place to "disappear" people via "extraordinary rendition."

[fudge stripe cookays]

140. They're all in Iraq or Afghanistan.

That way they can justify using "private troops" to enforce the peace.

A friend of ours is in the TX National Guard. 2 tours in Iraq, and two in Afghanistan since that fucking asshole took office. The only reason he didn't just walk is because he needed the bennies.

[Auggie]

56. Strategic Shock? What double-speak B.S. is that?

Besides, the Commander-in-Chief, President Obama, will be too smart and too prepared to let this happen. Not like his dumb-ass, do-nothing predecessor.

This report smells like Republican bullshit.

[lutherj]

59. Revolution!

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
- JFK

[quidam56]

135. A revolution of Historic Proportions !

Change is coming from the bottom up in Appalachia ! http://www.wisecountyissues.com

[robertpaulsen]

60. Oh yeah. They've been ready.

I put that in my last journal entry:

Are you ready for guerilla warfare? Look who's got their guard up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4684231

[McCamy Taylor]

61. Aka Military Coup. Wake up and smell the fascist roses, America.

[humbled_opinion]

63. Strategic Shock = Thought Control n/t

[superconnected]

129. Bet they're taking names on who says what about this on internet.

[Hydra]

163. Heh, we're all busted on this site

Unless we're a paid plant.

:hi:

Hi Agent Mike!

[sui generis]

64. SOUNDS LIKE

they're suggesting a military coup. No, really.

I would advise RETIRED conservative windbag Freir to pick his words carefully.

We are NOT the enemy, and bringing the war home would do nothing but create civil war. Remember that soldiers are a lot less likely to fire on American civilians especially given that they could be related. Using the military to fire on a protester's march or even on a food riot would be so disastrous the U.S. military would actually endanger its own existence, not through violence but through attrition and internal strife.

[Daemonaquila]

65. The military needs a raison d'etre.

I may be a broken record on this point, but here we go again. When we get the troops (and contractors) back from Iraq and Afghanistan, we're looking at over 200,000 people, probably more, who don't have a military or civilian job to return to here at home. That's going to be another giant kick to the economic 'nads. The military is already worried that it'll have no sandbox to play in, and that there will be no reason to maintain the number of active duty troops or the level of military procurement that it's used to. The War College is looking for something to do, and that something could be right here on our own streets as far as they are concerned. We will probably have that "economic collapse" to some extent, whether before the troops come home or more likely when that load of unemployed folks (with injuries large and small and in many cases PTSD) hits our streets.

There's nothing more dangerous than a military with too much time on its hands... except a civilian government willing to give it lots of rein.

[Javaman]

66. Tinfoil hat time....

:tinfoilhat:

I will repeat what I have been saying for the past 2+ years.

we have just over 20 days till moron* leaves and Obama comes in.

2+ years ago, people on DU were stating that moron will never allow an election, that there will be some sort of disaster or emergency to allow him to declare marchall law, etc via Exec Order 51.

as blunt and stupid moron* is, he does have dickhead chaney as his* vp and the actually holder of power and the leader of the US.

So my tinfoil hat theory is this: they let the election happen. it allows it appear as if moron* is benevolent and believes in the Constitution.

However, between the time of the election and the time Obama gets sworn in, "something" happens to allow moron* to execute executive order #51. to paraphrase the order, moron* can suspend the government via an emergency of his defining.

so laura stubs her toe, he declares.

pappy bush pulls a heart attack, he declares.

not enough brush to clear anymore? he declares.

Until Obama is sworn in, I discount nothing.

So with stories like this, it's really hard for me to believe that these pigs don't have something up their collective sleeves.

strap them on, there are plenty to go around.

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[RaleighNCDUer]

88. And that is why I'm not changing my distress flag avatar

until the afternoon of 1/20/09.

[kitty1]

131. Is that why I can't seem to envision Obama becoming president...

Don't ask me why, but for some reason as much as I would be delighted beyond measure to see Obama take office, my intuition tells me that it may not come to be. At least when it is supposed to.
Maybe this possible unrest is the reason. Something major will happen to stall the transition.

[AikidoSoul]

204. My own tinfoil hat theory says...

That even when Obama is sworn in, he will not really be in control of much more than the outer symbols of visible presidential authority. From within and from without, the countless threads of control are in place and can be pulled and tightened at will by the now wealthy beyond comprehension fascists whose goal is to strip this country of every valuable plum left... and then make slaves out of the rest of us.

[thesquanderer]

209. I think Bush will leave... eagerly

re:

So my tinfoil hat theory is this: they let the election happen. it allows it appear as if moron* is benevolent and believes in the Constitution.

However, between the time of the election and the time Obama gets sworn in, "something" happens to allow moron* to execute executive order #51. to paraphrase the order, moron* can suspend the government via an emergency of his defining.

I've had the same fear. But I think Bush/Cheney have so botched things up that Bush is almost as eager to get out as we are for him to leave. I think they tried to bend things to their advantage, but they bent them so far that they broke and now they don't know how to get it fixed, and are just as happy to have done what they've done and leave the mess for someone else to try to clean up.

[Joanne98]

67. THE SHOCK DOCTRINE

[BelgianMadCow]

84. .

[marshall]

68. Just hold on for three more weeks America

It will all be over very soon.

[bdamomma]

80. over for who?

:hide:

[marshall]

113. It will be over for Bush

And the country can breathe a sigh of relief.
This malaise is caused by widespread disatisfaction with our current president. After the inauguration there will be an upswelling of hope for the future.

[tama]

157. Hope is a beautifull thing

Crushed hope hurts like hell.

Pain avoidance is a great producer of denial.

[liberal N proud]

69. Military action against Americans would be just what the bu$h regime wanted

They would love to opportunity to turn the military on the people making this a military nation.

Question is, will they try something like this before bu$h actually leave office this next month?

[bdamomma]

83. then we shouldn't give them the opportunity.

but that is not saying if they try something I would not just roll over.

[acmavm]

117. But don't you see the hilarity, the irony? The CIC is a fucking AWOL little

lying coward. A guy who ran when it came time for him to do his 'duty'. It wasn't like the stupid fuck was even going to Nam like my ex and all our friends (a couple we didn't know we were seeing for the last time).

So this chickenshit piece of human garbage wants to rig it so that the military attacks US.

[L0oniX]

75. So do ya still support our troops?

[robinlynne]

77. well, they just sent 20,000 troops here to the US, did'nt they. This is the kind of

thing we have been afraid of....

[martymar64]

134. 20000 troops probably couldn't subdue a large city like NY or LA

much less an entire state or the entire USA. We are simply too large and varied geographically to be easily subdued. Guerillas hiding out in the Smokies or the Rockies or the Cascades or the Sierras would be exceedingly difficult to pacify, even with our modern technological army. Imagine the Pakistani Tribal mountain areas but by a factor of 100.

[robinlynne]

137. the point is that the military is not supposed to act here to subdue the population.

20,000 easily becomes 100,000. It's like spying on some people or torturing some people. What guerillas are in the mountains in the US, by the way?

[martymar64]

138. No guerillas yet , that I know of . . .

But that could all change if the govt decided to get nasty with us. Plus, where would the 100K troops come from? That would entail having to pull troops out of Iraq and other places for combat-effective troops. To pacify the Lower 48, one would probably need 2-3 million troops (a guess), in other words out entire Armed Forces both here and abroad. I just don't see that happening.

[robinlynne]

152. I don't know. The local police sure takes care of thousands or millions of people at a time

here in LA. It doesn't take many. They hit 4 or 5, teargas a few and everyone goes home quietly. (during the anti-war marches, for example.)

[cyberpj]

82. and cable news continues to prattle on about Caroline Kennedy and cruise deaths -

like the orchestra playing us down on the Titanic

[Politicub]

85. The groundwork is being put into place

Scary times, folks.

[superconnected]

128. It's been being put in place for decades, just for this.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

97. The military only has one business: the military, so of course they're going to promote their use

That's why this "report" has been written by the military.

[CheCheCheCheYerBooty]

104. You are seeing

the break-up of the US and thank goodness! This is no democracy but a shell of a facist state that richly deserves a comeupance.

Revolution now!

[Divine Discontent]

110. and what form does your revolution take?

[superconnected]

127. Throwing out the warlords. In this case they title themselves as CEO's.

It's also important to toss out the corrupt officials who server the CEO's and not the populace. I'm not saying get rid of all ceos. I am saying that some of them - the ones driving the gov - defense, oil, etc. need to be ousted.

[Divine Discontent]

149. I like that response. Thank you. I always felt necessities should be run by the govt w/oversight

[Generator]

109. Oh what a horrible image of the future that conjures

Obama calling out the military to shoot down the disrupting poor and activists in the street. Would the Obama apologists on DU dry up then? Is it possible?

[aldo]

114. Yeah, but the troops take an oath to the Constitution

As opposed to the treason force Blackwater. Maybe we'll see what the troops actually do in such a situation.

[superconnected]

126. Wrong, they take an oath to abide by the UCMJ - the uniform code of military justice.

They aren't under the rules of our constitution. They aren't there to defend it. They are there to do what they are ordered to do.

[ryanmuegge]

116. Government reports have been saying things like this for years since "globalization" accelerated

They knew their experiment would increase the gap to between the rich and poor to such an extent that it would threaten social stability.

[exman]

118. Civilian disaster training=doing something constructive

Be in a position to help with first aid and other training,in any catastrophe, false flag or natural. It will also put you on the safe side of the guns.

[superconnected]

125. Wait a minute. The safe side of the guns will be the autocracy taking over.

I think the unrest with this idea is because we'd be against our government suddenly becoming an autocracy. That would mean the skills needed are to fight said government and restore a democracy. Learning firstaid and joining the Nazi's just doesn't seem to suit my liberal ideals. Would it anyones? I mean other than Nazi's?

[Fire1]

121. Preparation in the unlikely event, yes. Will it happen? I doubt it,

Too many remember Los Angeles and Detroit.

[superconnected]

124. I don't even remember Los Angeles and Detroit. What happend?

[BlueEyedSon]

130. Mission Accomplished!

[lovuian]

136. they are expecting Civil War

our government isn't working the Big question is Our Military who pledged a Oath to defend the citizens of America going to shoot those citizens if this corrupt government asked them too

Everybody will know who they are in the upcoming times

[natrat]

150. some of those sick fuckers not only expect it but are pushing for it

[lala_rawraw]

161. i thought that was the police's job? n/t

[.... callchet ....]

166. Unemployed

There were 12,000,000 unemployed during the height of the great depression and there already 10,000,000 unemployed now

[.... callchet ....]

167. Bernie Madoff

Don't you think there is retribution being planned for what Madoff did?

[bstender]

170. the Madoff double-bluff

http://www.iamthewitness.com/news/2008.12.18-The.Madoff.Double-Bluff.html

just another over-leveraged investment house caught out. every hedge fund and investment bank in the world is a ponzi scheme by this standard. the fractional reserve fiat currency economy itself is a ponzi scheme!

[.... callchet ....]

177. Link

Thanks for the link. You referred to the other funds etc as being ponzi schemes. Since I can remember 9 over 40 years ) I have characterized the whole stock market as a pyramid scheme. Nobody really cares about the ethics cause they are making money ( Madoff investors ). The amount of money a company makes can't offset the fees charged by the brokers. The amount of money a company is worth cannot begin to cover the amount that it's stock is sold for after it has been trading on the market.

[bstender]

208. homo sapien

you make an important observation...as long as everyone is making money, they will not complain.

the entire US imperial project comes to mind. we live in incredible luxury funded by a similar form of ponzi, the consumption/exploitation of natural resources and cheap labor. use them up and it collapses. something that didnt seem possible 50 years ago, but now we see collapse happening all over the place. the capitalist system, (homo sapien system?) is based on endless expansion...destined to collapse, just get yours while you can. perhaps we need a new homo! :O

[nolabels]

168. A nail always looks at the hammer with skepticism

Oh, and of course the hammer in the right hand always looks more logical with the left hand holding one of the nails :shrug:

[ejbrush]

172. Just wait whiles't I adjust my tinfoil hat...

OK, that's better. Honestly, I cannot foresee this scenario playing out in the real world. But, the last 8 years have amply illustrated that reality in this country is about as reliable as a second-hand Yugo. What should rational folk do when the shit hits the fan?

FIGHT.

Die in the process, maybe, probably. But definately fight. If one lesson should be learned from the previous century's orgy of genocide, mass murder and other crap it is once the facists are in charge, your days are numbered anyway.

Right now, today, you may just as well get together with a couple of good friends, a bottle of decent bourbon and concoct a plan. Learn first aid, for yourself and your kin. Learn what wild plants are edible around the neighborhood. Learn the neighborhood, and how to get around where the Eyes won't see you. Read up on all the ugly, nasty stuff that people have done to each other throughout history and figure out how the survivors survived. Take a firearms course, learn what guns can and can't do. Learn archery. Learn bowling. Get yourself gassed, tear-gas sucks and once the panic wears off it still sucks, and it's good to know you won't die from it, necessarily. Buy a good sleeping bag. Have a couple weeks worth of canned goods, non-perishables and water in the pantry. Learn to like rice and beans. Learn how to make wine or beer at home. Learn how to filter diesel fuel through a jacket liner. Learn to read the clouds. Learn to tell a good story. Learn to sleep on a hard floor. Learn how to chop wood with an axe and dig a damn big hole by hand. Get to know your neighbors. Learn. Learn. Learn.

Do this with a couple of like-minded people you know and trust. Keep it to yourselves, don't be a moron and broadcast it. If nothing happens, you've learned a bunch of interesting stuff, some of which may even be usefull, who does't like bowling? If, gods/goddesses forbid the shitheads do try and pull off the big one, you'll at least have a few people around you for support, people on the right side of history, the side of progress. Maybe you'll meet another little group of patriots, and you can hoof it out of Dodge. Maybe you can join up with 100 little groups and storm the Bastille.

Rant off, returning to normalcy.

[Usrename]

173. Who will you fight? I mean, specifically who?

When the local police chief starts collecting folks with valid, perfectly legal warrants, what will you do? Shoot the sheriff?

I don't see how anyone can possibly fight back when it isn't possible to organize. It will take a generation or more.

[jberryhill]

182. Learn Bowling?

Is that next after they got rid of lawn darts?

[certainot]

188. and unless progressives break the talk radio monopoly, guess

who's going to be blasting from all the strongest signals in the country?

the limbaugh station in denver, 850 KOA, reaches 38 states at night. the limbaugh station in NM reaches 16 or so.

[GinaMaria]

192. bad economy and high unemployment can lead to revolution

The best course of action is to remedy both ills and forgo the plans for military intervention. FDR's New Deal turned this situation around for us once. I hope Obama's plans will do the same.

[Fire1]

205. Not if you have jackasses like Mitch McConnell crawling

out of their holes wanting 'input' and senate hearings and the bastard didn't blink to GIVE wall st. damned near a blank check.

[I814U]

210. I Don't Think Obama can Save Us

We're progressives, we eschew things like military power so we don't become trained killers. We believe in education, healthcare and using the government to help people, not destroy, so we become teachers, nurses and work at the local government welfare offices.

But we underestimated our "political" rivals. They own the real instruments of power: the military, the CIA, the FBI, the ATF, NSA, DIA...the secret service.

Bush isn't smart enough to have fabricated this war, the neocons did it. They brought him an NIE and told him Saddam was a threat so he said, "Golly, that sounds bad," and so he sent us to war. He didn't build the camps, the neocons brought him a "government study" put it on his desk and told him it would be good to sign it and so he did.

In 19 more days we change presidents...but the generals, agency directors and "governmet experts" are still there. Oh sure, Obama can change many of the appointable positions but could he really fire the entire genreal staff? Imagine the howling coming from Limbaugh and his accomplices in the media. They would cast Obama as the no-service-neophyte-neutering-our-honorable-military-worse-than-Jimmy-Carter. He would be impotent by 2010.

So these neocons take our new president, sit him down in something called a transition briefing. They tell him that, no, he will not be interrupting their little war. In fact he better keep the old SecDef hanging around (can you imagine if Rummy was still lurking about and Obama was made to keep him?). He has to keep the recently promoted Petraeus and the rest. You see, that makes Obama complicitous. You can't prosecute the old regime and its flunkies for war crimes if you are maintaing the exact same illegal occupation and military operations. Then they tell him he needs to shut-up about Gitmo and "enhanced interrogation techniques" or he's going to get a taste of what Bush got on 09/11/01 and he'll be blamed because of his "bleeding-heart liberalism" allowed Amurika to be attacked thereby ruining the cons record of no-more-9/11's. You'll get worse than that caribou Barbie bitch in 2012. They'll put an outright, frothing warmonger out while running continuous loops of the "devastation at OBAMA'S ground zero" worse than any tightly parsed clips of Rev. Wright.

And if Obama still really--REALLY--doesn't want to play ball? Maybe he tries to back-channel the cons and go to congress to cut their money flow by redirecting it to civilian work projects or cutting the military budget to build more schools.

Well, we got lots of right-wing fundie macho mysogynist testosterone junkies that have been undergone intensive "psychological screening" and "trainging" and making sure they are "team players"; and then the cons give them guns and vests and and radios and they tell Obama, "they're going to guard you...and your wife...and your daughters." It'd be a shame if they slipped-up and didn't jump in front of that skinhead meth-addict in time. Accidents happen you know. I mean sometimes even shoes can get through...

...right?

[ohio2007]

211. Russian "experts" predict the break up of the US in two years

http://cnintruth.blogspot.com/2009/01/russian-professor-predicts-break-up-of.html


Alaska will re join Russia, New England states to join the EU states, Canada taking a slice of a few states


:rofl:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJtrNrLedxA&eurl=http://cnintruth.blogspot.com/2009/01/russian-professor-predicts-break-up-of.html&feature=player_embedded

pass the reynolds wrap

[I814U]

212. You Mean...

..we'll have that Jesusland map?

[ohio2007]

213. only if you are a resident of

Texastan

[I814U]

214. As much as we despise the Jesusland types...

...it would be scary to think of the kind of national neighbor they would become if left to their own devises. We could cut them loose and say good riddance to bad rubbish but we would have a bunch of gun-loving heavily militaristic end-times bible thumpers as next door neighbors. You better believe immigrants under their rule would suffer and the sane part of the planet would have to keep a close eye on them.

<insert quote about keeping enemies closer here>

But they despise Obama and may try to leave on their own to do just that. Perhaps the comparisons to Obama and Lincoln will take on an even more prophetic nature.

[PfcHammer]

215. I'll believe it when I see it. The sheep have been conditioned by

the propaganda machine that it's more important to be
patriotic than it is to watch out for your own neck.
In other words, these people will be waving their
US flags made in China all the while they lose their
jobs, starve, get sick, and eventually die off.:eyes: