Doctor: Fetus Feels Pain After 20 Weeks

[GiovanniC]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3946938,00.html

A type of abortion banned under a new federal law would cause ``severe and excruciating'' pain to 20-week-old fetuses, a medical expert on pain testified Tuesday.

``I believe the fetus is conscious,'' said Dr. Kanwaljeet ``Sonny'' Anand, a pediatrician at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences. He took the stand as a government witness in a trial challenging the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act.

<snip>

Anand said fetuses show increased heart rate, blood flow and hormone levels in response to pain.

``The physiological responses have been very clearly studied,'' he said. ``The fetus cannot talk ... so this is the best evidence we can get.''

The Bush administration has argued that the procedure, referred to by opponents as ``partial-birth abortion,'' is ``inhumane and gruesome'' and causes the fetus to suffer pain.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. and i believe that the partial birth abortions are only performed

when a mothers life is in danger. so whether or not fetus feels pain does not make a difference. i have a right to choose my life over anyone elses when there is a life threatening situation. (fyi: stats back up my first premise)

[GiovanniC]

3. I'm Pro-Choice

And woefully uninformed about the facts here. Just posting the story to see the responses.

[noonwitch]

14. I agree

The whole "partial birth abortion" debate is not about one procedure or whether the fetus feels pain, it's about whether women have the right to choose to save their lives. The hearings are about the right wing trying to make it look as if women are choosing this procedure to end a healthy pregnancy that will result in a healthy child being born. They also want to use this as a back door to making all abortions illegal-if you are a pro-lifer, how can this procedure be worse than any other abortion?

It is such an insult to women to even imply that one would go through this procedure to avoid responsibility for a child.

[Beetwasher]

2. That's 5 months into a pregnancy

Abortions at that point are quite rare...

Additionally:

``I believe the fetus is conscious,''

It's his personal belief, there is no way to objectively verify his opinion, but he's entitled to it. He may very well be correct, however, as I said, you will be hard pressed to find ANYONE who would want an abortion 5 months in...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. i agree

i believe that the sky is bloody orange...doesnt make me right!

[treepig]

17. the cerebral cortex, the anatomical structure where "thought" occurs

doesn't begin developing until the third trimester,

so how could a five-month fetus possibly be conscious?

it's a biological impossibility.

[Beetwasher]

18. Good Point

n/t

[Warpy]

4. Yeah, he "believes."

He has no evidence, just another arrogant male opinion.

Personally, I'd like to see these procedures done under short acting general anesthesia, less traumatic to the mom and would put the fetus under also, if it is capable of sensing pain and being distressed by it, highly unlikely but remotely possible.

Late abortions are only done for the most tragic of reasons. To ban them because of some damn man's "belief" is unconscionable. To do them as humanely as possible is the solution.

[lazarus]

23. excuse me

If you'll notice, lots of men on this thread are supporting your position.

[BiggJawn]

25. I don't think testicularity has much to do with it...

I'd bet the good doctor is one of those who pays extra to insure that only RIGHT Wings are used for his Buffalo Wings...

But then that's just my own "Arrogant male" opinion.

Betcha a nickel this thread won't get hijacked like the "slap" thread did.

[Viking12]

5. Could be something other than pain

"increased heart rate, blood flow and hormone levels" are not proof of pain. People have these physiological reactions to many non-painful stimuli. It is a big leap to conclude "pain."

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. also even if its pain

mothers death kinda important too...

[Viking12]

16. Agreed

[Karenina]

21. 'Specially if she has other children...

what about the ones breathing, toddling about or crying for their mom?
Do THEY feel pain?

[patricia92243]

8. If it were an illegal abortion will they feel less pain?

[alittlelark]

32. Excellent point!!

[bluestateguy]

9. I'm for small government

Especially as it concerns abortion, pornography, drugs and guns.

[Malva Zebrina]

10. Some doctors have reported that they administer a medical injection first

to the fetus in case there might be pain.

[htuttle]

11. So do chickens

[ithacan]

27. not to mention earthworms...

they feel pain too (like when you put them on the fishing hook how they writhe and all that).

maybe congress should get involved in prohibiting the use of worms for fishing because they feel pain...

[sniffa]

12. a resuLt of interviews w/ baby angeLs

[nodehopper]

33. LOL. Touche.

[zbdent]

13. On a side note, did you know that most "cosmetic" circumcisions

(sp?) are done without anesthesia?

I don't know if that's still true, but I read it years ago.

Just imagine, not even a day old . . .

Just how many of these "pro-lifers" have had their kids circumcised?

[dolo amber]

22. Well, one day old

isn't a blessed FETUS now, is it? Once it's beyond the almighty fetal stage it hardly matters how it's treated...

See here for further proof...:eyes:

(edited to clarify that snarky attitude was not directed at the poster I replied to...just the whole thing makes me ILL. :( )

[BiggJawn]

26. Can't remember...

Well, it WAS a long time ago. Can't remember if it hurt or not.
In fact, I don't remember very much at all before the age of 3....

[zbdent]

35. I can still see the scar

and I'm gonna be 41 soon.

[indie_voter]

15. I would bet the fetus feels pain

I am pro-choice. I think this "partial-birth abortion" ban is ludicrous. How many people get abortions at that late date unless something is seriously wrong? What ethical doctor would perform an abortion at this late date unless something is seriously wrong?

If I remember correctly, fetal viability(living outside the mother) is around 24 weeks? Meaning if born the baby has a good chance of surviving (with lots of hospital care).

I've had early ultrasounds with both my children, 11 weeks to be exact.I saw both sucking their thumbs. I've got photos of this to give them someday. Even that early they are little formed humans.

I wouldn't doubt a 20 week fetus can feel pain, I wouldn't doubt a 11 week old fetus feels pain.

I wish there were no need for abortions, but it is a woman's choice(at 20 weeks it is most likely to save her life due to toxemia or something similar. I had toxemia late in my pregnancy, fortunately both my baby and myself made it through fine. Who chooses to end a pregnancy half way through for no reason?) It isn't the government's place to intervene.

[lostnfound]

30. FYI, at 20 weeks also you get amniocentesis results for chromosones

I chose not to have an amnio because there's a significant risk of miscarriage.

[Teaser]

19. Fetuses should be anaesthetized.

Look, even if we agree that the fetus ain't a person, I think the same standards should be applied to it that we require for animal research. Pain relief should be delivered if the fetus is capable of feeling pain.

End of problem.

[indie_voter]

20. I agree n/t

[THUNDER HANDS]

24. if I can be objective....

I think a fetus is somewhat conscious at around 20 weeks or so - that's not to say its viable (it's not, not for another four weeks at least) but rather that I've seen what a 23, 24, 25-week baby looks like and it looks rather conscious to me.

But I've also seen babies that were born that shouldn't have been, due to medical complications, and I wouldn't wish being born into this world like that for the child of my worst enemy.

If you've ever looked at the face of a child who you know is going to die within a few months - or a child who is deaf, blind, handicapped physically and mentally - and will basically stay a semi-vegetable, totally dependant on his or her parents for the rest of their natural life - then you might think different about PBA - if anyone on this board is against it right now.

[izzie]

28. If Republicans have their way it will be 20 seconds.

If it wrong to have an abortion, why is it not wrong to 'plant' eggs into a women so she can have a child, when guess what, God must have meant she should not have children if they must do this?So childless women and men should not be able to have that done. Or 'rent a womb' should be stopped.I do not understand this whole fight. Are we really to go back to the rich going to Europe for them or having their D+C's and the poor do you know what? Can you believe we are going to re-fight this?

[FlaGranny]

29. Fetal pain

Please see page 3 of the following. It would not let me cut and paste, but there are some details about fetal pain.

http://www.eymj.org/2001/pdf/12669.pdf

[sam sarrha]

31. I bet he stuck it with a pin to find out... You can stick a pin in an

amobea or a brainless flat worm and they respond....

[hippiechick]

34. Abused, Neglected Unwanted Children feel pain for their entire lives.

No further comment necessary.


:hippie:

[Hamlette]

36. the doctors told me when my son was born he would not feel the pain

of a circumcision. This guy is a quack.

[hyphenate]

37. I agree with most

on this thread.

If the fundies and extreme right get this victory (which is likely they shall, if the chimp stays in office) as well as the "unborn fetus" law, the amount of doctor assisted abortions is going to reduce, and make women even further slaves.

There is absolutely NO difference between the Islamic extreme of the Taliban and the religious right here in the U.S.--both cultures want to take women out of the power picture, and reinstate good ole boys as the predominant male of the species here as well. Guess a little too much "Queer Eye" is making the reich-wing a wee bit paranoid.

I am fully and totally convinced that women should be in charge of their own bodies, and whether that includes an abortion or not is up to them. The government needs to stay out of our uteri!!