Family praying for hostage from Mississippi (Halliburton employee)

[seemslikeadream]

Posted on Sat, Apr. 10, 2004


Family praying for hostage from Mississippi

JOEDY McCREARY

Associated Press


JACKSON, Miss. - A Mississippi man is being held hostage in Iraq by insurgents who have threatened to kill and mutilate him if U.S. troops don't withdraw from Fallujah, relatives said Saturday.

Thomas Hamill, 43, of Macon, was captured Friday during a convoy ambush, the latest in a series of kidnappings in Iraq. Family members said they learned of his capture later that day.

"They've been showing him on the TV, and they don't think he's an American," said Vera Hamill, his grandmother. "I just wish somebody would tell them he is an American.

"I got God, and I just trust in God," she said.

Vera Hamill said her grandson is a contractor who went to the Middle East in September to help rebuild the war-torn country.

Hamill's wife, Kellie, declined to comment to The Associated Press, referring all questions to her husband's employer, Houston-based engineering and construction company Kellogg, Brown and Root - a division of Halliburton.

"Halliburton's primary concern is for the safety and security of all personnel, especially those working in such challenging environments and conditions," the company said in a statement issued Saturday. "We are monitoring the current situation in Iraq and continue to work closely with coalition authorities regarding the safety and security of all our personnel in the region."


more
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/8403796.htm

[Old and In the Way]

1. Maybe Dick Cheney will do the right thing and offer to take his place.

For once in his greedy, miseable life.

[Mari333]

2. tell them he is an american? what does that have to do with anything

poor family. but they dont get it. I doubt the Iraqis care if hes an american, and the gramma in this case seems to be saying americans are exempt from being killed in this scenario.
what world is this woman living in.

[NNN0LHI]

3. Many people think the Iraqis love us. Or at least they want to think that

[QC]

6. Maybe she's a bit shocked.

Turning on the tv and seeing that one's grandson is a hostage who is scheduled to be killed and mutilated might have that effect on a person.

[belle]

9. One which is about to be rudely shattered, unless she gets the miracle

she's been praying for. For her sake, I hope her prayers are answered.

That kind of sums it up though--I think a lot of Americans pre-9/11, and to this day, seem to have this enduring belief that the world *likes* us, they REALLY like us, because we are Americans and Americans are Special. It's sort of like watching forty-year olds desperately clinging to the belief that there is TOO a Santa Claus. Well, a Santa Claus that delivers bombs instead of coal to punish the naughty children of the world, but somehow everyone loves him anyway, all the *good* people, that is. Sad and awful and infuriating.

and yes, of course anyone would cling to whatever shred of hope they could find if it was their grandson, perhaps I'm being too bitter here. Poor woman. Poor guy. Poor everybody. except fucking Bush, who I really hope gets pulled under by his next big fish and it EATS him. just unbelievable.

[ultramega]

12. She needs to pray they don't know he's American. nt.

[Piperay]

15. I agree

I wouldn't want them to know I was an American, they would really go hard on you then. :scared:

[MoonRiver]

22. Yes, that's the worst thing that could happen.

The grandmother's statement shows how deluded many Americans are. I pray for that man and his family, but he'd be much better off if he spoke fluent French right now. :scared:

[mobuto]

24. Well, please excuse his grandmother

its not like armed radicals have abducted her grandson and are threatening on television to burn him alive - if ever you're going to give someone a pass for not making much sense, wouldn't now be a good time? You think she just might be traumatized by the events?

[MoonRiver]

29. Of course, and I certainly sympathize and support his family.

I just feel that many folks aren't aware of the damage * has done to the American image around the world.

[mobuto]

30. Fair enough

and of course I agree with you on that. I just don't think is the best place to be making that point.

[TankLV]

37. On the contrary - they DO know he's and American - that's why they are

targeting them!

I will excuse here only because she is a grandmother and I will give her a pass, as Mobutu has wisely put it. I feel genuinely sorry for her.

However, there is no exc use for other dumbasses to not get it - THEY HATE AMERICANS THERE!

THERE ARE NO FLOWERS GREETING US!

This is a universal, widely supported fight against us, not some isolated, diegruntled, saddam-loving fanatics.

"Thanks" bunkerboy - they are certainly "bringing them on".

[seemslikeadream]

4. Halliburton employees coping with tedium, terror

Their lives are a mix of tedium and terror. Hours are long -- 12 hours a day, seven days a week -- the work unglamorous, the danger real.

Twelve Halliburton employees and subcontractors have been killed in attacks to date. An additional 39 have been wounded.

Just last week, four civilian contractors for a North Carolina firm were killed in an ambush in Fallujah. Their burned bodies were then dragged through the streets, and two were strung up on a bridge.

But Halliburton is offering top dollar at a time when blue-collar jobs are scarce stateside.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/167719_iraqhalliburton05.html


Halliburton has had nine employees and "about" 21 subcontractors killed in Iraq and Kuwait over the last year. The company has made it a practice not to reveal the names of workers killed in Iraq.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/2496922

[leesa]

5. Boy he chose the wrong company to work for.

Re-building Iraq...that's pretty funny. Somebody needs to tell Grandma that Iraqis despise all Americans now.

Halliburton chose to foment this war in order to steal resources and make gobs of money re-building what the Crime Family tore down. This poor mis-informed probably greedy sucker got caught in the middle. Will Halliburton come to his aid by demanding the withdrawal of their corporation and the return of profits and resources extracted?

[0007]

7. " Tell Grandma that Iraqis despise all Americans now."

Most sane Americnas hate Halliburton.

[Eye and Monkey]

8. "Most sane Americans hate Halliburton." Except stock market investors.

I suppose that sorta proves that the stock market is insane. As if we needed any additional proof.





http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=HAL&t=1y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=

[revcarol]

10. Funny that Cheney sold at $55, then the Dresser Industries asbestos

truth came out. Now Cheney is being investigated for insider trading.
A totally unethical company. A friend worked for them for over 30 years.No pension. Since most of his work was outside the U. S., no big payments to Social Security. Now he lives on SSI, $420 a month, gets food stamps and surplus food, and LIHEAP to live. BAD company to work for.

DAMN PRESIDENT BUSH.

[0007]

11. I forgot about the money lords, LOL!!

Your right

[saigon68]

17. Amazing what happens when $1000.00 /day/job gets shitty.

The risks = the rewards.

I doubt they'll execute this guy, he'll get released with the understanding he'll go back to Mississippi.

They have nothing to gain by killing him--- they are keeping him to instill fear in the minds of all the other ("contractors" A/K/A Mercenaries)

[dArKeR]

13. Militants threaten to kill American hostage - TGM

Baghdad — Iraqi insurgents who kidnapped an American threatened in a videotape released Saturday to kill and mutilate him, unless U.S. forces withdraw from the city Fallujah.

Meanwhile, insurgents holding three Japanese hostage said they would be freed in 24 hours. The captors had threatened to burn the civilians alive, unless Japan pulls its troops out of Iraq, a demand Japan refused.

The tape of the American, broadcast on the Arab TV station Al-Jazeera, showed him identifying himself as Thomas Hammil, 43, from Mississippi. In other footage with no audio, he stood in front of an Iraqi flag, his expression calm but wary as his captors announced their threat on his life.

http://theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040410.wiraq0910/BNStory/Front/

[LibDemAlways]

14. Mr. Hamill probably took the job in Iraq

because good paying jobs in Mississippi are few and far between. I can't blame him, and I'm sure KBR painted a rosy picture of the working conditions that bore no resemblance to reality.

Grandma apparently spends too much time watching FAUX news and actually believes that Iraqis are fond of Americans. This is a hell of a way for her to learn the truth.

[0007]

18. Grandma believed that things are great in Iraq except for

a few pockets of resistance.

[TankLV]

41. As stated earlier - she is a grandma, after all. That is the important

point in HER understanding of the situation.

I feel utmost sorrow for the poor woman.

[thebigidea]

16. meanwhile, Cheney continues preying on humans in service of Halliburton

[mobuto]

19. Please people, I don't like KBR either

but lets please put that aside and hope for the release of this man. His family is quite obviously traumatized, and its really not fair to criticize their reaction to his plight. I doubt that if, God-forbid, one of the people I loved were kidnapped and on television and armed militants were threatening to burn them alive, I'd be making much sense either.

They need our sympathy.

[NNN0LHI]

20. The families and all the hostages have my full sympathy Mobuto

I hope they all make it out OK. And the sooner the better.

Don

[QC]

23. Thank you!

It's nice to see some compassion here. Too many of us seem to get a kick out of sitting in judgment of people from the comfort and safety of our homes.

[saigon68]

25. I refuse to feel sorry for someone who puts a hand in the wood chipper

And then complains when the $20,000.00 some one paid him to do it, isn't enough. I do however feel sorry for the family for conceiving breeding and raising such a Moran.

[mobuto]

27. Hand in the wood chipper?

This man is apparently a truck driver. You're saying he deserves to be burnt alive? What kind of human being are you? I don't like the way KBR obtains its contracts, but that doesn't mean he's responsible and even if somehow he were, so what?

[saigon68]

31. Not saying that Mobuto

"but that doesn't mean he's responsible and even if somehow he were, so what?"

I did not f***ing say "he deserved to be burned alive"

and what I am saying is this (shame on you for putting words in my mouth)
___________________________________

He saw the news--

He was seduced by the promise of Filthy Lucre

He signed the contract for BIG BUCKS

He got on the airplane and flew there

He threw the dice

OOOPS craps game over!!!!!!!!

He is as much of a key tool in this cluster fuck as Krazy Killer Kimmitt.

And worse because unlike the 18 year old kid from Iowa he knew exactly what hew was doing.

"I vas only followink ordrs" said the SS ma at Treblinka

There you go put more words in my mouth.

[mobuto]

33. Oh, so now you're only comparing him to an extermination camp guard

I suppose you think that's better? Shame on you.

No one's doubting that any foreigner in Iraq runs an inherent risk. But you seem to be going further - suggesting that what he's done makes him deserving of what's happened - and I suggest you're just plain, flat-out wrong.

[tabasco]

35. You're right, mobuto.

We know nothing about this man. To judge him like the previous poster is wrong. I hope the Iraqis understand they have nothing to gain by harming the hostages. They will garner international goodwill by treating prisoners humanely.

[seemslikeadream]

36. I know 2 things about this man

He willingly took a job that required him to kill people for money.

He was willing to do that.

Private Military Companies are destroying our Armed Forces, they are the reason we are in this mess now.

Maybe if you read this you'll understand why some people have so much hatred for the mercenary.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=9558&mesg_id=9558

Check out how these guys train "security guards"































http://www.bundesgrenzschutz.de/Orga/PWest/gsg9/index.php

[mobuto]

38. You do not know that

1. Is there any reason to believe that this man is a security contractor? I have seem nothing to suggest that he is. If you have evidence, please post it. What I've seen so far suggests he's a truck driver.

2. Security contractors are not paid to kill people, unless attacked. Unless I am entirely mistaken, they are not carrying out military operations anywhere in Iraq. They're paid to do things like protect office buildings and convoys.

[seemslikeadream]

43. I'll start here

Hired Guns
What to do about military contractors run amok.
By Phillip Carter
Posted Friday, April 9, 2004, at 2:57 PM PT



Contractors: Life during wartime

The ambush and gruesome killing of four U.S. contractors in Fallujah, Iraq, has sparked some of the most intense combat since the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime last spring. It has also brought the actions of private military contractors—hired by the U.S. government to provide extra manpower and firepower in Iraq—into sharp focus, with reports that they are fighting their own battles with their own weapons, helicopters, and intelligence networks.

Military contracting in wartime is nothing new. The military depends on a vast support network of civilians to feed, clothe, equip, and train the forces. Indeed, today's U.S. military couldn't function without civilian contractors to troubleshoot its high-tech equipment. What is new is the extent to which these contractors are conducting combat operations in Iraq; rather than the purely support functions they have performed during recent missions in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. This shift raises a number of problems for the U.S. government, with which the Pentagon is only now beginning to wrestle—principally, how to control these contractors and ensure that their actions under fire further the national interest.

The first set of problems arises from the legal status of contractors. Armed contractors—like the four men ambushed in Fallujah last week—fall into an international legal gray zone. They aren't "noncombatants" (as unarmed contractors are) under the 4th Geneva Convention, because they carry weapons and act on behalf of the U.S. government. However, they're also not "lawful combatants" under the 3rd Geneva Convention, because they don't wear uniforms or answer to a military command hierarchy. These armed contractors don't even fit the legal definition of mercenaries, because that definition requires that they work for a foreign government in a war zone, in which their own country isn't part of the fight. Legally speaking, they actually fall into the same gray area as the unlawful combatants detained at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.


http://slate.msn.com/id/2098571/

Sorry I can't access the Wahington Post article maybe you can

The bulk of the media and political class in Britain has followed this lead in an apparent attempt to normalize the occupation of Iraq in the eyes of the public. The fact that British squaddies shot dead 15 Iraqis in Amara on Tuesday has had little more coverage than the shameful beating to death of Iraqi prisoners in British custody. Both the BBC and ITN routinely refer to British troops as "peacekeepers"; private mercenaries are called "civilian contractors"; the rebranding of the occupation planned for June is described as the "handover of power to the Iraqis"; the Sadr group always represents a "small minority" of Shia opinion; and a patently unscientific and contradictory poll carried out in Iraq last month - in which most people said they were opposed to the presence of coalition forces in Iraq - is absurdly used to claim majority support for the occupation.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0408-05.htm

High pay -- and high risks -- for contractors in Iraq
Friday, April 2, 2004 Posted: 10:30 AM EST (1530 GMT)



A bodyguard holds his automatic weapon as U.S. administrator for Iraq L. Paul Bremer, left, arrives at a meeting in Mosul, Iraq.



(CNN) -- Blackwater Security Consulting -- whose four employees were viciously killed and their corpses mutilated by a mob in Fallujah, Iraq -- is one of a growing number of private security contractors that are hiring veterans for jobs previously assigned to the military.

Those jobs include the protection of personnel working for private companies and non-government organizations in Iraq.

"They provide very focused security for detailing out how a protectee's day occurs -- from the beginning of the morning until they tuck that person back into bed at night," said CNN national security analyst Ken Robinson, "whether that be an NGO trying to conduct operations trying to provide food or water or support to the population."

The four men killed Wednesday were providing security for a convoy delivering U.S. government food.

Blackwater also provides security for Paul Bremer, the U.S. civil administrator in Iraq.

"These are typically former special operations community personnel who are highly trained in the use of deadly force, also in surveillance detection and also in risk avoidance," Robinson said.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/01/iraq.contractor/

[mobuto]

44. I understand the legal grey area

and I understand why the prevalence of these contractors is cause for concern.

What I don't understand is:

1. Why you insist this KBR employee was a security contractor.

2. Why you insist on referring to these armed contractors as mercenaries, when your own link argues that they're not mercenaries.

3. Why you argue that they're paid to kill, when there's no evidence (that I've seen at least) to suggest that they're taking part in military operations of any kind.

[seemslikeadream]

45. Private security firms burgeoning in Iraq

Private security firms burgeoning in Iraq


Iraq turns into bonanza for world's private security firms amid increasing violence in war-ravaged country.


By Sam Dagher - BAGHDAD

His steely blue eyes scan the lobby of one of Baghdad's fortress-like hotels, his speech is fast and agitated, peppered with words like "discipline" and "assessment" and he has nothing but contempt for his Iraqi counterparts.

He is a member of a burgeoning and shadowy army of western private security advisors and guards charged with protecting civilian coalition members, private contractors, Iraq's interim Governing Council elite and the country's vital oil infrastructure.

"Clients are looking for the maturity of soldiers that have been in intense security situations and are not going to jump out and start shooting right away," said the British security advisor on condition of anonymity.

Since the fall of Saddam Hussein, Iraq has sunk into what the United States has characterised as "low intensity warfare" carried out by "desperate" former regime loyalists and "foreign terrorists".

Private security firms jumped in, turning the country into a magnet for veterans of guerrilla wars in Africa, Latin America and Northern Ireland and cops who worked in America's meanest streets. And all of them are mainly motivated by cold hard cash.

"It is about finances first and foremost," said the British advisor, refusing to disclose details of his own remuneration.

But he said that the starting monthly salary for security advisors in Iraq was about 10,000 dollars, more than double the going rate in Britain, and not counting expenses and extras.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/features/?id=8320

BEHIND THE HEADLINES
Security workers face a dangerous time in Iraq

Wednesday's tragic attack in Fallujah showed U.S. troops aren't the only Americans doing guard duty in Iraq. Another whole army is in play here, and it's a dangerous game.

By ALISSA J. RUBIN and ESTHER SCHRADER
Los Angeles Times
4/3/2004






Associated Press
Along with Blackwater USA, the elite North Carolina company that employed the victims of the Fallujah violence, more than 35 other security companies from around the globe employ an estimated 15,000 private security workers in Iraq.



BAGHDAD, Iraq - The four American civilian security workers brutally killed and mutilated in Fallujah on Wednesday were among thousands of ex-soldiers and others who work in the murky universe of private security firms operating in Iraq, frequently outside the control of the U.S. military or any Iraqi authority.
Along with Blackwater USA, the elite North Carolina company that employed the victims of the Fallujah violence, more than 35 other security companies from around the globe employ an estimated 15,000 private security workers in Iraq. Dozens more companies are competing for lucrative contracts available here.

The security firms operate in a world where the military, the intelligence community and private companies merge. Many of the employees once served in elite units such as the Navy SEALs or Army Green Berets.

Those employees are also well paid, with some of the more dangerous positions reportedly garnering up to $1,000 per day.

Their clients, activities and even the names of security firm employees are largely kept from public view. Security experts estimate that dozens of the heavily armed security workers have been killed since entering Iraq after the ousting of President Saddam Hussein nearly a year ago.

The vast majority of their work in Iraq is government-funded, either through direct contracts with government agencies or indirectly as security for firms that have contracts to help rebuild Iraq.

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20040403/1017733.asp

Britain's secret army in Iraq: thousands of armed security men who answer to nobody

The presence of thousands of armed Westerners and others, including Gurkhas and Fijians, says much about America's fear of military casualties. Security firms are escorting convoys. Armed men from an American company are guarding US troops at night inside the former presidential palace where Paul Bremer, the American proconsul, has his headquarters. When a US helicopter crashed near Fallujah last year, an American security firm took control of the area and began rescue operations.

Details of the number of companies here - there may be as many as 400 - are further complicated by the number of security firms that are subcontracted by larger companies on a daily or weekly basis. Larger companies such as Control Risks complain that many are unregistered and uninsured.

Much of the money being earned by British companies is coming from the British taxpayer. The Independent on Sunday has learnt that the Foreign Office and Department for International Development have spent nearly £25m on hiring private bodyguards, armed escorts and security advisers to protect their civil servants. That figure is set to increase sharply in July when sovereignty is handed over to an Iraqi administration.

The largest contract is with Control Risks, which has earned £23.5m. It employs about 120 staff to protect about 150 British officials and contractors.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=505826

The growing number of gun-toting civilians in Iraq has created a wild west-like atmosphere that could become particularly troublesome once the United States hands over control to Iraqis on June 30, experts say.

Without special diplomatic agreements in place, a U.S. civilian who is accused of mishandling a weapon or killing or injuring an Iraqi civilian might be subject to an Iraqi justice system.

"They're not members of the U.S. military or governed by the code of conduct, but they're civilians operating in a combat zone ... an inherent disconnect," said P.W. Singer, a military analyst at the Brookings Institution and author of Corporate Warriors - The Rise of the Privatized Military.

"What happens if they get in a firefight and something goes wrong and they get captured? We're in a sense making up the rules as we go along, and that's not a recipe for good policy."

Before yesterday's blast that leveled the Mount Lebanon Hotel in Baghdad, at least 20 foreign contractors had been killed in Iraq since major hostilities were declared at an end by President Bush last May 1, along with a number of Iraqis working for contractors, according to published reports.

No one formally tracks civilian deaths and injuries.

http://www.sandline.com/hotlinks/Baltimore_Sun-Secu1138575.html

[mobuto]

46. Ok, I understand the situation

Now will you care to answer the questions posed in my previous post?

[seemslikeadream]

48. Answers to your questions

1. Why you insist this KBR employee was a security contractor.


How do you know he wasn't? He was an employee of KBR. KBR is a private military contractor. I'm sure he went through the training KBR would have given him to carry a gun and kill someone. KBR is the problem here, no doubt. But how can I excuse a man for working for a company that hires and deploys men all over the world to play war not for our government but for profit. Do you think KBR is interested in protecting freedom?


2. Why you insist on referring to these armed contractors as mercenaries, when your own link argues that they're not mercenaries.

A man is known by the company he keeps.

3. Why you argue that they're paid to kill, when there's no evidence (that I've seen at least) to suggest that they're taking part in military operations of any kind.

I think there is plenty of evidence of that Columbia, Iraq, Cong, and Haiti to name a few.


Aljazeera airs tape of dead 'CIA men'


Sunday 11 April 2004, 18:24 Makka Time, 15:24 GMT


One of the dead bodies shown in the tape






Aljazeera channel has aired a video tape showing two dead bodies, with the voiceover claiming they were that of CIA men killed in Falluja.



The tape, aired on Sunday, showed marks of gunshots on the bodies and a number of Iraqis surrounding them. It also showed a damaged car, which the narrator claimed belonged to the dead men.

On Saturday, Aljazeera aired a tape showing a US detainee kidnapped by a group called al-Mujahidiin during an attack on a US convoy.

The captive, Thomas Hamil, is an American working for a private company supporting the military operation.

The convoy, transporting supplies and fuel, was attacked on the Baghdad-Falluja highway on Friday.

The captive said on the tape that he was the only member of the convoy to escape death. He said he was being treated well.

Aljazeera also aired an audio tape from the kidnappers. "Up to now your prisoner is being dealt with in the tolerant manner specified by Islamic law. Our one request is to break the siege of the city of the mosques (in Falluja) during the 12 hours from six o'clock on Saturday evening," the kidnappers said.

"If not, he will be dealt with worse that those who were
killed and burned in Falluja," they added.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/64583899-BD41-4851-9C9C-A2BA1FDC9F1C.htm

What was he doing with CIA?

[mobuto]

50. No, KBR is not a private military contractor

KBR does thousands of different things as government contractor. Now one of those things is that it provides security. But it also provides food services, fights fires, repairs ports, etc. This man was part of a convoy that was transporting gasoline.

I'm sure he went through the training KBR would have given him to carry a gun and kill someone.

If I were in Iraq right now for any reason, I would carry a gun. But that doesn't make me a mercenary.

A man is known by the company he keeps.

I don't understand your argument. You posted a link to an excellent article on Slate, which I read. The problem is, however, that your linked article goes to pains to explain how security contractors are not actually mercenaries.

I think there is plenty of evidence of that Columbia, Iraq, Cong, and Haiti to name a few.

In Iraq? Where is that evidence? I'm not denying the existence of mercenaries around the world but I am saying that there aren't any, as far as I've seen, in Iraq -- the security contractors there do not meet the definition of being a mercenary, simce they do not engage in military operations. If you have evidence to the contrary, of course I'd like to see it.

[seemslikeadream]

51. Would you read this please?

Democracy Now: A day after four U.S. military contractors were murdered then mutilated in the streets of Fallujah we go to Baghdad to speak with retired Iraqi engineer Ghazwan Al-Mukhtar about mercenaries in Iraq and why Fallujah has become a hotbed of the Iraqi resistance

Excerpt:

This incident happened in Fallujah where two days before that, the American army shot many many people, women and children, on the streets, and --- in a bizarre shooting incident that was unjustified, killing many people.

Fallujah has been a place where the US Army has actually used brutal force to suppress the people there, including using the F-15s, and F-16s to attack villages and place where they think the resistances are, which is unjustified to use high explosives against individuals. This resulted in many, many casualties in the province.

Added to it, they have detained, for 50 or 60 days, hundreds of people on and off, which alienated the people against the American forces and the American contractors or the American security contractors, which are really a private army, uncontrollable by the US. This is part of the privatization of the war.

Two days ago, three days ago, there was a similar incident in Mosul, where two contractors were killed, under electricity. They were going to the electricity generating plant. The important -- the thing that I know is in the media says that the contractors were involved in protecting the food supply. This is the food supply for the US Army, not to be confused with providing help to the local population or anything. It's just a routine US convoy that may have food and may have on other occasions, armaments or anything. So, the resentments of the people of Fallujah are justified.

What happens to them is -- it's a sad thing, but you know, brutality breeds brutality, and violence breeds violence, and he who started first should take the responsibility, and I think the US army has used an unjustified force against the people of Fallujah, and they have brutalized the people of Fallujah to the point where they had to respond with the same brutality.

Link for full transcript:


http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/01/1621223

US hires mercenaries for Iraq role
By Jonathan Franklin
Santiago
March 6, 2004



The US is hiring mercenaries in Chile to replace its soldiers on security duty in Iraq.

A Pentagon contractor has begun recruiting former commandos, other soldiers and seamen, paying them up to $US4000 ($A5300) a month to guard oil wells against attack by insurgents.

Last month Blackwater USA flew a first group of about 60 former commandos, many of whom had trained under the military government of Augusto Pinochet, from Santiago to a 970-hectare training camp in North Carolina.

From there they would be taken to Iraq, where they were expected to stay between six months and a year, the president of Blackwater USA, Gary Jackson, said. "We scour the ends of the earth to find professionals - the Chilean commandos are very, very professional and they fit within the Blackwater system."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/05/1078464637030.html


Apart from Chile, the other popular source for military recruits is South Africa. The United Nations recently reported that South Africa "is already among the top three suppliers of personnel for private military companies, along with the UK and the US." There are more than 1,500 South Africans in Iraq today, most of whom are former members of the South African Defense Force and South African Police.


According to the Cape Times, among the South African companies under contract with the Pentagon are Meteoric Tactical Solutions, which "is providing protection and is also training new Iraqi police and security units," and Erinys, a joint South African-British company, which "has received a multimillion-dollar contract to protect Iraq's oil industry," the Cape Times reported.


The recruitment of its citizens, however, isn't making either the Chilean or the South African governments happy. The Regulation of Foreign Military Assistance Act prohibits South African citizens from direct participation as a combatant in armed conflict for private gain. Michelle Bachelet, Chile's defense minister, has ordered an investigation into whether such recruitment is legal under Chilean laws. Bachelet also was troubled by stories that soldiers on active duty are leaving the company to sign up as mercenaries.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18193

[mobuto]

53. I'm afraid I don't understand

Yes you posted links from two leftist sources that make the simple mistake - corrected by the Slate article you previously cited - of calling security contractors mercenaries. As the Democracy Now article explains, the men killed in Falluja were not engaged in military operations. They were guarding a food convoy under contract from the US military. They also did not work for KBR.

KBR is an engineering and construction firm that provides a wide variety of services to the US in Iraq of which security is just one of many. It is wrong for you to assume that the man currently being held is a security contractor, especially given that all the evidence suggests that is not the case.

[seemslikeadream]

54. What do you think he was doing with CIA?

Aljazeera airs tape of dead 'CIA men'


Sunday 11 April 2004, 20:46 Makka Time, 17:46 GMT


Aljazeera TV has aired a video tape showing two dead bodies, with the voiceover claiming they were that of CIA men killed in Falluja.



The tape, aired on Sunday, showed marks of gunshots on the bodies and a number of Iraqis surrounding them. It also showed a damaged car, which the narrator claimed belonged to the dead men.

On Saturday, Aljazeera aired a tape showing a US detainee kidnapped by a group called al-Mujahidin during an attack on a US convoy.

The captive, Thomas Hamil, is an American working for a private company supporting the military operation.

SUPPORTING THE MILITARY OPERATION

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/64583899-BD41-4851-9C9C-A2BA1FDC9F1C.htm

[QC]

56. Did you notice the quotation marks around 'CIA men'?

Their use of quotes would suggest a certain skepticism, or at best uncertainty. What is more, Al Jazeera is not saying that his guy was CIA--they are saying that the voiceover on a videotape they aired said so.

Hamill might well be CIA, but the "evidence" you have given here is certainly not compelling enough to justify making that judgment.

[mobuto]

57. I agree entirely

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if a number of people who present themselves as civilian contractors are, in fact, operatives of the CIA. But there's no evidence of that at all in either case and there's also no question that the overwhelming majority of civilian contractors are really just that - civilian contractors, and they perform a wide variety of tasks, sometimes including security, but never including military operations.

[seemslikeadream]

62. Of course I know that

but where is any evidence at all that he is not a mercenary. It's just not known is it? and that's the problem.

[QC]

63. So if we don't know something for sure,

we should immediately assume the worst?

Anyway, see my post below for some background information on your bloodthirsty CIA mercenary.

[tabasco]

39. A truck driver?

Believe it or not, Haliburton has a lot of people who are not secret mercenaries with a license to kill. They are not killing people and they are not responsible for US policy. But if it makes you feel like a good liberal to consider him expendable, knock yourself out.

[seemslikeadream]

49. If you think that "truck driver" didn't have a license to kill

think again. He definetly was armed and trained very well to go to a war zone.

You are very correct, he is not responsible for US policy and he is not in the military service protecting our freedoms. He is working for KRB, protecting their businesses, not the Iraqi people.


“More than $100 billion has been allocated to fund reconstruction projects throughout Iraq,” said John W. A. Didden, Managing Director, The Steele Foundation – Middle East. “This region is host to hundreds of multinational and local companies who are combating the security threats and high-risk exposures of terrorism and social instability. The Steele Foundation provides a suite of critical safety and security services for environments with absent or developing public security infrastructures.”

$100 billion that's what it's all about

Thanks to

sistersofmercy post 40.

BTW does anyone remember which EO bush* signed that removes any


legal culpability of death and injury etc to employees from US corporations operating in Iraq? It protects the corps from potential lawsuits. I believe it was EO 13303.


After the end of the Cold War, the mercenary industry revived as the demand rose in smaller conflicts all over the world. Peter Singer of the Brookings Institution estimates that the mercenary industry brings in about $100 billion a year worldwide.

Today, the center stage of the mercenary is Iraq, where over 10,000 hired troops are operating. Washington has tasked mercenary soldiers with guarding Coalition Provisional Authority Administrator Paul Bremer. The four Americans whose bodies were mutilated in Fallujah were the employees of Blackwater, a security company hired by the U.S. military that seeks to be the world's largest mercenary provider.

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200404/11/200404112156439309900090809081.html

[tabasco]

52. He definetly was armed and trained very well to go to a war zone.

Got any proof? Haliburton is a big company and runs big operations. They have all kinds of people working for them, and most of them are not involved in security operations. They certainly pay these guys more to go into a hazardous area. Even if they did carry arms, they would be for self-defense. How does that make this employee culpable of any crimes, or worthy of contempt?
If I was unemployed and had a family to support, I'm pretty sure I would take a job with Haliburton. I certainly would not do anything criminal or immoral during the employment, and if ordered, would quit.
Condemning every one of these employees is the same as these folks that consider each and every soldier a cold-blooded killer. IRRATIONAL.

[seemslikeadream]

55. This is an illegal war

the man was there illegally. I find it interesting that you defend a company that is making billions on a war that Dick Cheney started.

[mobuto]

58. Not defending Halliburton

Halliburton has done a great many bad things - KBR has recently been found to have cheated the Federal Government on a number of contracts, and there seems little doubt that the procurement process is seriously tainted. But you're not defending Halliburton if you argue that their employees are not necessarily cold-blooded killers. They just aren't. And they're not in Iraq illegally. The legal government of Iraq is the Coalition Provisional Authority and it invited them. The war that put them there may or may not have been "legal" - it was definitely wrong, but not necessarily illegal - but the government is perfectly legal. At least as legal as every previous government of Iraq installed by violence.

[seemslikeadream]

59. They are there illegally and it is an illegal war

I guess that's our main problem. If we don't agree on that then there is no use discussing it.


Dick Cheney pulled a fast one on the Congress and gets his war and his company gets the prize. Check out John Dean's new book.


The first set of problems arises from the legal status of contractors. Armed contractors—like the four men ambushed in Fallujah last week—fall into an international legal gray zone. They aren't "noncombatants" (as unarmed contractors are) under the 4th Geneva Convention, because they carry weapons and act on behalf of the U.S. government. However, they're also not "lawful combatants" under the 3rd Geneva Convention, because they don't wear uniforms or answer to a military command hierarchy. These armed contractors don't even fit the legal definition of mercenaries, because that definition requires that they work for a foreign government in a war zone, in which their own country isn't part of the fight. Legally speaking, they actually fall into the same gray area as the unlawful combatants detained at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.


http://slate.msn.com/id/2098571 /

[mobuto]

60. I will check out John Dean's new book

I will read it when I get ahold of it. And I'm not disagreeing with you that the war is wrong. But how is the CPA any less legitimate than Saddam Hussein's government? He only got his government through violent insurrection, the same way we got ours.

However, they're also not "lawful combatants" under the 3rd Geneva Convention, because they don't wear uniforms or answer to a military command hierarchy.

Agreed.

Legally speaking, they actually fall into the same gray area as the unlawful combatants detained at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

I think better than "unlawful" would be "extralegal," in that their presence doesn't violate any laws, but rather it exists outside the sanction and protection of the law.

[seemslikeadream]

61. CSPAN2

Monday, April 12 at 7:00 am


Worse Than Watergate: The Secret Presidency of George W. Bush
John Dean

If you get a chance watch this, he explains what Cheney did.

I hope you didn't misunderstand me. I just believe that PMCs are evil and should not exist. Sometimes words can be taken the wrong way and I'd like to remain friendly with you.

[JohnLocke]

74. We're not defending Halliburton. We're defending an innocent truck driver.

[seemslikeadream]

21. Private Army

Iraq's U.S. administrator Paul Bremer (far left background) walks with his security detail to attend a meeting in Mosul on April 1. Bremer has used private security forces.
(Ceerwan Aziz/Reuters)

April 10 — What started with a trickle of special operations veterans freelancing as security consultants for the media and military contractors has grown into what is by some estimates the second-largest army in Iraq.

"I don't think anyone imagined it would go this far," Singer says. "That's actually a big point of contention within the military right now. There's a real concern that actually we've pushed the envelope way past original expectations and way past where it should have been."


Some critics cite run-ins in Bosnia and elsewhere between civilian contractors and local authorities, and wonder if the private soldiers answer to anybody besides the private clients who hire them.

"If a U.S. military person is suspected of committing a crime, there's an established system to deal with it — court-martial," Singer says. "When a private military person is suspected of committing a crime, there's really not much legal recourse. For example, in Iraq right now, you would have to rely on local law. Well, guess what, there is no local law."

You can probably make double or triple, or maybe even five times as much as you make in the military," says Lawrence Korb, an assistant secretary of defense during the Reagan administration and a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress. "The thing that people have to realize is the U.S. government ends up paying twice for this, because they train these brave young men. Then, if they leave and go out and work for a private contractor, we have to hire them again. So, in effect, we're paying double for it."

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/Nightline/World/iraq_contractors_040410-1.html

[seemslikeadream]

26. Bush and Blair must face facts

Our leaders condemn the foreign fighters who've joined Iraq's insurgents to fight the US-led coalition, yet themselves hire their very own mercenaries to bolster the troops they've sent to war in insufficient numbers for the formidable job in front of them.

http://icteesside.icnetwork.co.uk/sundaysun/page.cfm?objectid=14138300&method=full&siteid=50081

[seemslikeadream]

28. Demonstrators Seek Removal Of U.S.-Led Forces From Iraq

Protesters march on H Street in Northwest Washington in an antiwar demonstration organized by International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism). Rallies also were scheduled in 50 other U.S. cities. (Photos Bill O'leary -- The Washington Post)


Other speakers -- from Muslim Students Association of the U.S. and Canada, the Free Palestine Alliance and Mexico Solidarity Network -- demanded the impeachment of President Bush for crimes against humanity and accused the United States of hiring unscrupulous mercenaries to guard Iraq's oil fields. They lashed out at corporations being paid billions of dollars to do work in Iraq and accused the United States of wanting to control Iraqi oil.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2371-2004Apr10.html


The 160,000 occupation forces, backed up by mass destruction technology, are now deemed insufficient in the fight against the Sunni diehards and the Shia unrepresentative extremists. Furthermore, many thousands of foreign fighters have indeed come "flooding" into Iraq - not terrorists sent by Bin Laden but mercenaries hired by the occupation authorities. Their role is to carry out dangerous tasks, to help reduce US army casualties. This is in addition to the Pentagon's Israeli-trained special assassination squads. Iraqis now believe that some of the recent assassinations of scientists and academics were perpetrated by these hit-squads. A similar campaign of assassinations in Vietnam claimed the lives of 41,000 people between 1968 and 1971.

http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=404&list=/home.php&



Mr Berlusconi has been criticised for not visiting the troops sooner
The visit comes amid mystery surrounding reports that four Italians have been seized by militia on the outskirts of Baghdad.

A Reuters journalist said he saw two burly men being dragged into a mosque, as they were crying, "Italians. We're Italians".

The foreign ministry in Rome says no Italians on their updated list of those present in Iraq are missing.

This has prompted speculation that the men may be private security guards, mercenaries or even spies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3616489.stm

[seemslikeadream]

32. But in no cases are the stories in our heads the same as reality itself.

Here's a story making the rounds right now: four American contractors delivering food were ambushed, murdered, burned and dismembered by evil terrorists. Another story is those ambushed were $1000-a-day ex-American Green Beret and SEAL mercenaries training some Iraqis to oppress others. Which story is true?

Both, probably. No one is all good or bad. Probably the murdered were doing both: delivering food and training other mercenaries.

Not only are there stories, there are stories behind the stories. And there are stories behind those stories. In fact, as Alexei Panshin has written, it's stories all the way down

Here's what I mean: some Americans want to completely level two or three Iraqi cities because of the murder of those four Americans. Yet, these same Americans ignore the fact the US government has twice attacked Iraq when the country never attacked America, murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, contributed to the deaths of hundreds of thousands more through a blockade (called "sanctions"), lied about non-existent "weapons of mass destruction," and then conquered the country. Why is there such outrage over those four murders, as brutal as they may be, and little concern over the genocide the American government has perpetrated upon Iraq?

Because behind those stories lies another story. This one is called the Tribe and the Outsider.

Every tribe throughout history has called itself "the People" or "the Humans." Anyone outside the tribe was non-People and non-Human. And each one of those tribes has always thought God was on its side.

Modern nations, which are just tribes writ large, are no different from those primitive tribes. Anyone outside the tribe is an Outsider. Not quite human, and certainly not as human as those inside the Tribe. That's why some Americans are outraged over the murder of four Americans, and pay no attention to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. They're just not quite human.

It also why there was dancing in the streets in Arab countries when those planes were flown into the WTC and the Pentagon. The people in those buildings were outside their tribe.

Most of the time the Outcast is also the Scapegoat. Get rid of the scapegoat, who is the cause of evil, and goodness shall reign. Saddam Hussein was made into a scapegoat. Many cheered when he was dragged out of his hidey-hole, mistakenly thinking it would make a difference. It didn't.


http://www.lewrockwell.com/wallace/wallace179.html

[llmart]

34. Bullshit!

"Halliburton's main concern is for the safety and security of all personnel".

Halliburton's main concern is profits and a rising stock price. It's why we destroyed Iraq - so we could have Halliburton go in and "rebuild" what we destroyed. It's why they got the no-bid contract. It was the Bush/Cheney plan all along.

[sistersofmercy]

42. Completely agree!

See my reply to this thread below.

[sistersofmercy]

40. BTW does anyone remember which EO bush* signed that removes any

legal culpability of death and injury etc to employees from US corporations operating in Iraq? It protects the corps from potential lawsuits. I believe it was EO 13303.

[Malva Zebrina]

47. Is this another mercenary?

Should these people be praying also for the babies and the children, the innocent children that our troops killed with impunity in this mission on Fallujah and outlying villages. Their suffering is no less.

In fact, the suffering of the mothers and the familiies of these slain babies and children is more that what is being experienced by these families of Hamill, as their babies are dead due to our troops murdering them.

I hope the family of this man does not suffer much and that he is not beheaded and displayed on the nearest bridge, for their sake. I do not wish suffering on them. I do wish though, that if this man survives, that it will be an awakening and a humbling experience to them and they will turn in resolve, against this slaughter that is going on in Iraq, especially in Fallujah

May their prayers give them solace and hope--that at least is some sort of stabilising element.

But, it seems to me, that if the prayers are "answered" indeed, that this god they pray to would then out of necessity, be a very vengeful, hateful god to save one who may be engaged in killing and not care or be available to all those children and babies, women and old men who were and still are being slaughtered by our troops, and possibly the mercenaries. But then, maybe that is the gist of it all. They are the infidels because they pray to the wrong god, so, our god will slay them with his sword of truth. Right? That is the hope of the Christians, is it not? The Iraqi babies and children, have the wrong religion and worship the wrong god. The logical progression would be that if they are killed, babies, children old men and all, that they, or their parents, simply did not pray to the right god.

[QC]

64. Some background info on Hamill, from The Guardian

Hamill sold his dairy farm last summer after fighting a losing battle to survive in the industry. But the sale still left the family in debt, Kellie Hamill told The Beacon newspaper in Macon in a story published Thursday. ``With this job, he saw a way to help get us back on track,'' she said.

Another interesting tidbit: his wife works as a 911 dispatcher and is home on leave recovering from heart surgery.

Yep, they sound like a real pair of mercenary fatcats to me.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3965738,00.html

[seemslikeadream]

65. He took a job that required him to kill

Yes I know I read that article. I never said that he was CIA, the article implied that he was in the company of CIA. It still does not change the fact that he took a job in a country where we are fighting an illegal war. He took a job that required him to kill. He took a job with a company that is making money off an illegal war. He was protecting that company and nothing else. Like the rest of the 15,000 in Iraq they are not fighting for their country they are ready to kill for money. And that sets a very dangerous game.


I don't know if you believe American citizens should be going around the world doing this, but I don't and anyone that is involved with them are enabling the PMCs. Not worthy of my sympathy.

Aristide was just overthrown by this method and our government knew full well what was happening.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=9558&mesg_id=9558

Conclusive Evidence of U.S. Role in Kidnapping and Coup


PRESS ADVISORY
Monday, April 4, 2004
Media Contact: Dustin Langley 212-633-6646

As Bush Administration Scrambles to Shore Up Appointed Haitian Regime Commission to Present Conclusive Evidence of U.S. Role in Kidnapping and Coup

Date: Wednesday, April 7
Time: 6:30- 9:30 pm
Location: The Whitman Theatre at Brooklyn College

Panel to include: Rep. Maxine Waters, Rep. Major Owens, Former Attorney General Ramsey Clark, Ossie Davis, Gil Noble, Amy Goodman, Ron Daniels, and other prominent activists and journalists

The Bush Administration is facing a growing crisis over its role in the coup in Haiti and the kidnapping of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, who continues to speak out about his abduction by the U.S. The 15-member organization of Caribbean nations, CARICOM, has refused to recognize the U.S.-installed regime and has called for an investigation, despite intense pressure and threats from the U.S. The 53-member African Union has raised the same demand.

On Wednesday, April 7, the Haiti Commission of Inquiry will initiate a public inquiry of the role of the Bush Administration in the crisis in Haiti. Delegations that visited both the Central African Republic and the Dominican Republic will present conclusive evidence that U.S. Special Forces armed, trained, and directed the "rebels" and engineered the abduction of President Aristide.

The preliminary report from the Commission states, "two hundred U.S. Special Forces soldiers came to the Dominican Republic as part of 'Operation Jaded Task,' with special authorization from President Hipólito Mejia. We have received many reports that this operation was used to train Haitian rebels. We have received many consistent reports of Haitian rebel training centers at or near Dominican military facilities. We have received many consistent reports of guns transported from the Dominican Republic to Haiti, some across the land border, and others shipped by sea."

Johnnie Stevens of the International Action Center, a member of the delegation to the Central African Republic, said, "The U.S.-installed Prime Minister, Gerard Latortue, has hailed the paid mercenaries as freedom fighters, and had thus discredited himself among the Caribbean nations."

Secretary of State Colin Powell, in a desperate bid to lend some credibility to the Latortue government, is now visiting Haiti for the first time. This attempt to put U. S. weight behind the isolated colonial-style regime is a response to its growing isolation. Sara Flounders, of the International Action Center, said, "This visit by Powell is a sign of the Bush Administration’s growing isolation and disarray. The U.S. is desperately trying to shore up a discredited regime in the face of international opposition to the appointed government of Haiti after the stinging rebuke directed at the U.S. by the recent CARICOM meeting." Flounders is a member of the Haiti Commission of Inquiry and was part of the delegation to the Central African Republic, where she visited with President Aristide shortly after his kidnapping.

Kim Ives from Haiti Progres, who was part of the delegation to the Dominican Republic, told the media, "In the course of our investigation here, we met with many Haitians who were forced to flee Haiti following the coup d'etat of Feb. 29. Their testimony gave very concrete names and faces to the stories of violence which we have heard that the so-called rebels, trained and assembled in the Dominican Republic, have carried out in Haiti over the past month. We were also touched by the tears of refugees who told us of how they are apprehensive over the fate of their loved ones left behind in Haiti."

For more information, or to schedule an interview with a member of the Commission, call Dustin Langley at 212-633-6646.

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http://www.iacenter.org/haiti_0407press.htm



WACTH THIS VIDEO We the People

http://www.ericblumrich.com/pax.html

Rally in B'klyn for Aristide


Chanting "Aristide yes, CIA no," nearly 1,500 supporters of the former Haitian president gathered at Brooklyn College yesterday to call for his return to power.
Speaker after speaker at the spirited four-hour-plus rally in the college's Whitman Theater accused the White House of forcibly removing Jean-Bertrand Aristide from office Feb. 29. The Bush administration has insisted he willingly resigned.

Rep. Maxine Waters (D-Calif.) passionately defended Aristide and charged that U.S. agents "took him out in force. It was a coup-napping."

"I will never abandon Aristide," she told the cheering crowd, "no matter what Colin Powell says."

Powell, the U.S. secretary of state, visited Haiti on Monday to show support for the new government and came away saying that Aristide, currently a guest of the Jamaican government, shouldn't be allowed anywhere near his homeland.

more
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/181756p-157805c.html

George Bush broke International Treaties that the United States agreed to when he refused to help Aristide.

[QC]

67. Would I have taken the job?

I would hope not, but I have not had to face the real likelihood of my family ending up hungry and out on the street. Have you?

Unless you have, your vendetta against this man is nothing more than cheap, feel-good moralizing.

It's good to be angry--I'm angry, too. But let's not forget who is ultimately responsible for this mess. Hint: He's not a bankrupt dairy farmer from Mississippi.

[seemslikeadream]

68. He did not have to take a job that required killing, he did not

Unless you have, your vendetta against this man is nothing more than cheap, feel-good moralizing.

Others have made this into a vendetta. I have said nothing about this man other than I believe he is a mercenary. I didn't say I was glad for what has happened to him. I didn't say he deserved it. All I'm saying is that he works for a PMC and is working in a country that we are fighting an illegal war with. I believe he is putting OUR SOLDIERS at great risk. That is why I said what I did, not because it felt good.

Guess where Halliburton was recruting the other day, at a unemployment office in Dallas. Lots of poor people there to prey upon.

[QC]

69. I agree with you that companies like Halliburton

prey on the poor. That's my point here. I also agree with you that the whole paramilitary thing is disturbing for all the reasons you have cited and something must be done about it.

As for whether he took a job that required killing, well, I would be interested in knowing how this was sold to him. Hiring on as a truck driver is a very different thing from hiring on as a mercenary. There's a lot more I would like to know here. Maybe an enterprising journalist will look into how companies like Halliburton hire their civilian workers for this kind of job, but I won't hold my breath.

I think it's a safe bet that, if given a choice between making a decent living for his family in Macon and driving trucks in a combat zone, he would most likely have chosen the former. I could be wrong--he might have had Oliver North fantasies for all these years--but having seen my own family in some desperate times when I was a kid, I know that my own father would have taken a dangerous job to provide for us. (As it was, he took some dirty, hard work at below minimum wage, since it was either that or lose our house.) So I'm inclined to give this man the benefit of the doubt until I know more.

And, as I said, I'm also inclined to blame Bush for this mess.

[seemslikeadream]

70. I think we agree on alot more than we disagree

I keep thinking of the interview I saw with the widow of a veteran who took a job with one of the PMCs. He wanted to make sure they could get by when he retired. But now he is dead.


I don't know if you saw this but there's alot of info on the Dogs of War
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=9558&mesg_id=9558

[QC]

71. I'm sure we do.

The Hamills and the veteran and his widow are victims of the larger class war that Bush and his fellow kleptocrats have been waging since they took power. We have a poverty draft in this country.

Like I said, I can remember times when I was a kid when my family came near losing our house, my mother made our clothes, we ate beans and cornbread every day, and my dad had to take work for under minimum wage just to have something coming in. If he had been offered a job like Hamill's at the time, I fear he would have taken it. People will do almost anything when see their families doing without.

[ktranz]

72. I don't blame him

I would have taken the job too, with this shitty economy, who wouldn't?

[JohnLocke]

73. Yes, truck driving is a job for killers (nt).

:eyes:

[seemslikeadream]

75. IT IS IRAQ! Do you think he was unarmed?

Maybe Halliburton should start hiring senior citizens, they could use some help with their medical bills

In one moment in time, our Service members will be feeding and clothing displaced refugees - providing humamitarian assistance. In the next moment, they will be holding two warring tribes apart - comducting peacekeeping operations. Finally, they will be fighting a highly lethal mid-intensity battle. All in the same day, all within three city blocks. It will be what we call the three block war.

General Charles C. Krulak, 31st Commandant, USMC Halliburton

He knew what he was getting into



Some comments from employees of PMCs and Halliburton history


Just to get to know who these guys are. Maybe some poor souls were duped into working for them, didn't realize what they were getting into. Needed the money, what segment of US population needs financial aid more than senior citizens, are they expected to sign up to so they can pay their medical bills?

"I too spent time in Iraq with Custer Battles. They are a frauduently company. Trust me, they are worried about $$ first and the employee/ bodies last. They will breach anyones contract, then screw them all the way home. Also don't trust there K9 division, there dogs are suppose to be BOMB dogs, I won't bet my life on the dogs finding anything. Also is a liar." (January 8, 2004)
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Custer_Battles

A new monster has emerged from the depths of private security firms
operating in IRaq. Custer Battles LLC, the new company that took over
security at the Baghdad Airport. The on-site management team is made up of
a bunch of former "army ranger" types that must have a real "treat" to work
for in the military. They could care less about the health or safety of
thier own staff never mind that of the innocent civilians working in and
around the airport. They promote a type of security that well crosses the
borders of decent treatment and humanitarian treatment. Constantly yelling
at thier own staff to "take no shit" , point weapons at innocent/unarmed
civilians, and "suck it up" when they have a complaint... they present as no
company that is certainly going to help with the problem of how Americans
are percieved in the area. Pointing weapons and threatening thier own staff
with being "escorted" to the propertly line and forceing those that wish to
quite or be fired to make thier take an "unarmed" ride without
communications through the country to get out.

They have hired 50 or so Ghurkas from Nepal to support the operation... but
pay them less than 1/4 of what most of the other staff gets. Forced to eat
Iraqi food without proper cooking and storing has made many of them sick...
and the management could care less. When faced with questions, they simply
place you in truck and send you unarmed and without communications to
Amman... where you have to find your own way home basically.

They have purchases thier own plane (the management) but still do not
properly equip thier own staff. They are forced to patrol the area in
sub-standard vehicles that creat yet another dangerous situation. These
vehicles are not robust enough to withstand a blowout never mind any other
attacks. With the 4 cylinder P/Us, the officers are not able to get out of
thier own way, never mind escape an attack or dangerous situation.

I encourage you to look into this type of activity and wast of our money in
Iraq.

http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/a-list/2003w33/msg00065.htm

Topic Page: 1 2 of 2
Kevwhite


USA
2 Posts
Posted - 09/22/2003 : 12:36:42
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Just a warning to anyone considering a contract with Custer Battles LLC, of Fairfax,VA, the company currently awarded the contract to provide security at Baghdad International Airport. I was with them for the first month. The company repeatedly demonstrated signs of serious cash flow problems that effected their ability meet payrolls, both within country and also for all the Americans expecting direct deposits back home. We were all shorted on our first pay, at the end of July, and the promise to make up the difference by Aug 5 was not met. At that time the excuse was that it was easier to pay us the back wages along with our normal pay at the end of Aug. However, at least in my case, the Aug pay was also substantially light. As I had returned to the states due to a death in my family, and being owed nearly $2000, I opted to not return. There are also a number of issues, such as health and welfare concerns and generally poor management, that contributed to my decision. A number of other well qualified professionals have also left them. If you are a true professional you will not like working for them and you will not want your name associated with them.

tthrasher


USA
1 Posts
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 19:40:09
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Could you email me with more info? I was planning on sending them my resume.


togeoff


United Kingdom
46 Posts
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 11:32:24
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevwhite

Just a warning ..with them.

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I wouldn't mind more information myself - I too was looking at what they were offering.

Geoff H


RangerinIraq


USA
1 Posts
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 07:27:24
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I've been with Custer Battles since they started here in Iraq in July. After my time in the Army, this has been the most rewarding experience I've had. Custer Battles has been good to me, and while they have definitely experienced growing pains, they take care of their people more than any company I know. The owners spend most of their time here, and they handle issues fairly and honorably.

I also know the guy who posted this note. He left the company after they paid $3000 up front to fly him home for a family emergency and he repays them by posting crap like this.

All I know is that I enjoy what I do and I'd recommend Custer Battles to anyone. They're definitely hiring and expanding; send em your resume.




t


1 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 17:34:46
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reference custer battles,please stay clear,they are dangerous,i have just left them,they left us without body armour,ammo and weapons,we had to buy all our own equipment and scrounge it from other good companies and the military,then we were told to arrange our own transport home on leave,it was unbelievable,when these points were brought up we were ignored at all levels,from washinton to bagdad.they had in place teams of psd's from the usa who then left,then they had teams of psd's from france who then left,then they had teams of psd's from the uk who then left,does this not speak volumes.custer battles are only in it to gain as much cash as possable they definetely should not get the contract renewed in march they are dredfull in the way they conduct thier buisness,ps.to the previous "ranger" im glad you are happy mate but they are not anywhere as good as you make out,please do your research to find out whether what i have said is fact or fiction,yours T.


alan_w


USA
1 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 09:42:55
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More info please. Been offered a contract.


divdoc


USA
3 Posts
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 01:14:18
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevwhite

Just a warning to anyone considering a contract with Custer Battles LLC, of Fairfax,VA, the company currently awarded the contract to provide security at Baghdad International Airport. I was with them for the first month. The company repeatedly demonstrated signs of serious cash flow problems that effected their ability meet payrolls, both within country and also for all the Americans expecting direct deposits back home. We were all shorted on our first pay, at the end of July, and the promise to make up the difference by Aug 5 was not met. At that time the excuse was that it was easier to pay us the back wages along with our normal pay at the end of Aug. However, at least in my case, the Aug pay was also substantially light. As I had returned to the states due to a death in my family, and being owed nearly $2000, I opted to not return. There are also a number of issues, such as health and welfare concerns and generally poor management, that contributed to my decision. A number of other well qualified professionals have also left them. If you are a true professional you will not like working for them and you will not want your name associated with them.

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Thanks for the heads-up. I work for ITT/Group4 in Bosnia. The same advice and avoidance should be applied.


custerbattlesisajoke


2 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 19:43:10
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I too spent time in Iraq with Custer Battles. They are a frauduently company. Trust me, they are worried about $$ first and the employee/ bodies last. They will breach anyones contract, then screw them all the way home.

Also don't trust there K9 division, there dogs are suppose to be BOMB dogs, I won't bet my life on the dogs finding anything. Also Jerry Johnson is a liar.




lawdoggs86


USA
3 Posts
Posted - 02/06/2004 : 00:56:00
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Do you work for a Defense Contractor in Iraq or elswhere?

Have you been mistreated, abused, injured on the job?

Send your e-mail, (names are not necessary) and a short description of your situation to: [e-mail]

We are preparing lists of personnel to mount mass torts, (class action lawsuits) against the various contracting organizations that have abused, mistreated and otherwise maligned security and other contracting professionals in this, our nation's time of crisis.

While our soldiers die in Iraq everyday, these companies only talk about greed, greed, greed.

Information will be sent to you about the various attournies and other legal organizations you can contact to put a stop to these insidious abuses.

[e-mail]


csdickey


USA
1 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2004 : 04:36:43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by t

reference custer battles,please stay clear,they are dangerous,i have just left them,they left us without body armour,ammo and weapons,we had to buy all our own equipment and scrounge it from other good companies and the military,then we were told to arrange our own transport home on leave,it was unbelievable,when these points were brought up we were ignored at all levels,from washinton to bagdad.they had in place teams of psd's from the usa who then left,then they had teams of psd's from france who then left,then they had teams of psd's from the uk who then left,does this not speak volumes.custer battles are only in it to gain as much cash as possable they definetely should not get the contract renewed in march they are dredfull in the way they conduct thier buisness,ps.to the previous "ranger" im glad you are happy mate but they are not anywhere as good as you make out,please do your research to find out whether what i have said is fact or fiction,yours T.

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Enzo


Germany
5 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2004 : 08:09:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by csdickey


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by t

reference custer battles,please stay clear,they are dangerous,i have just left them,they left us without body armour,ammo and weapons,we had to buy all our own equipment and scrounge it from other good companies and the military,then we were told to arrange our own transport home on leave,it was unbelievable,when these points were brought up we were ignored at all levels,from washinton to bagdad.they had in place teams of psd's from the usa who then left,then they had teams of psd's from france who then left,then they had teams of psd's from the uk who then left,does this not speak volumes.custer battles are only in it to gain as much cash as possable they definetely should not get the contract renewed in march they are dredfull in the way they conduct thier buisness,ps.to the previous "ranger" im glad you are happy mate but they are not anywhere as good as you make out,please do your research to find out whether what i have said is fact or fiction,yours T.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Has someone any adresses from serious companies,maybe UXO-related,in the area?
Thank´s,Enzo

SL


lawdoggs86


USA
3 Posts
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 13:05:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you work for a Defense Contractor in Iraq or elswhere?

Have you been mistreated, abused, injured on the job?

Send your e-mail, (names are not necessary) and a short description of your situation to: [e-mail]

Also, if you know of other message boards, send that information as well. We will band together a network to stop these people from their sick and disgusting practices which are ruining our lives and costing our noble troops their's.

Whether you work for: Brown & Root/Haliburton

DynCorp

Custer Battles

ITT

or other corrupt contracting organization, you need to take a stand.

Don't be fooled. These people have strong lobbies in Washington and deep pockets filled, not only with tax payers fraudulently acquired dollars, but politicians and high ranking military officials as well.

This is not a joke. If we don't start standing up to these filthy thieves, nobody will.

I did not serve my country to let that happen. Nor, I believe, did you.

start here: http://www.alexanderlaw.com /

all information is strictly confidential.

We are preparing lists of personnel to mount mass torts, (class action lawsuits) against the various contracting organizations that have abused, mistreated and otherwise maligned security and other contracting professionals in this, our nation's time of crisis.

While our soldiers die in Iraq everyday, these companies only talk about greed, greed, greed.

Information will be sent to you about the various attornies and other legal organizations you can contact to put a stop to these insidious abuses.

[e-mail]


custerbattlesisajoke


2 Posts
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 16:59:42
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At least we weren't the only ones with out body armour. Guns with 2 or 3 bullets. Custer Battles, needs to be investigated for Fraud! At least I am home, I have heard othe horror stories of the way they treat there people.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by csdickey


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by t

reference custer battles,please stay clear,they are dangerous,i have just left them,they left us without body armour,ammo and weapons,we had to buy all our own equipment and scrounge it from other good companies and the military,then we were told to arrange our own transport home on leave,it was unbelievable,when these points were brought up we were ignored at all levels,from washinton to bagdad.they had in place teams of psd's from the usa who then left,then they had teams of psd's from france who then left,then they had teams of psd's from the uk who then left,does this not speak volumes.custer battles are only in it to gain as much cash as possable they definetely should not get the contract renewed in march they are dredfull in the way they conduct thier buisness,ps.to the previous "ranger" im glad you are happy mate but they are not anywhere as good as you make out,please do your research to find out whether what i have said is fact or fiction,yours T.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Duke


1 Posts
Posted - 03/05/2004 : 18:48:48
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I would like some additional info too - like tthrasher, I am/was considering some work for them...would like to hear more about what they are not doing well...

Thanks

D


ScottK


USA
4 Posts
Posted - 03/13/2004 : 13:44:33
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Any updates on this company? Email me if you don't want to post.


susanskate


USA
1 Posts
Posted - 03/23/2004 : 14:07:09
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Hello,
I am a foreign correspondent for a major U.S. newspaper working on stories about problems with subcontractors in Iraq - if you have specific examples of any problems, or have worked for a subcontractor I would like to hear from you!




Posted - 04/09/2004 : 20:01:12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a journalist for a UK paper reporting a story about a Custer Battles employee killed this week in an ambush near Hit.
Would any Custer employees with relevant information please email me asap.


Temps From Texas
Half a world away, another group of unemployed workers can be found at recruiting sessions in Houston. The company has been posting flyers at truck stops and posting advertisements on the internet. Four out of five of the recruits who are invited to training sessions who worked at a now defunct JC Penny store will be sent to Iraq. Halliburton sends an average of 500 recruits a week.

These men are not skilled. "They are unemployed and underemployed workers with few jobs in a U.S. economy that isn't producing many jobs," writes Russell Gold, a Wall Street Journal reporter. Gold interviewed men lining up for the training sessions, citing the example of one typical applicant whose previous job was transporting chickens for $12 an hour.

But when they arrive in Iraq, their navy blue American passports earn them a tidy sum of money: between $7,000 and $8,000 a month, generous sums, even by American standards. CorpWatch asked company spokesperson Norcross why there is such a huge disparity based on nationality in the wages Halliburton pays in Iraq.

"We will not discuss our specific wage structures. Our compensation packages and the compensation packages provided by our subcontractors are based on a wage scale that was recommended by the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq, and are competitive in terms of the local market," she wrote back.

When I posed the same question to Army spokesperson Dowling, we got a more revealing answer.

"These workers consider themselves fortunate to have jobs even if it means them traveling somewhere else. There is an army of companies that move from conflict to conflict with experience in setting up chow halls from an empty field to a 1,000 army camp in a matter of days. It's not an easy job and these guys are good at it. They bring their own people with them - people with experience in other military locations," Dowling explained.

"The (salary) decision is not based on the value of his life but on the cost of training and equipping the workforce. Nor would it be right for the US Army to enforce US based salaries where no one else could match it. Life sometimes isn't fair," he concluded.

I'm sure Al Rasheed waiters Muzaffar, Shahnawaz and Ali would agree.

http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=9928

Get to know Halliburton


During 2002 the Securities and Exchange Commission undertook an investigation of Halliburton's accounting practices, relating to events in 1998, which has not been completed.

Halliburton's "current contract in Kuwait began in September 2002 when Joyce Taylor of the U.S. Army Materiel Command's Program Management Office, arrived to supervise approximately 1,800 Brown and Root employees to set up tent cities that would provide accommodation for tens of thousands of soldiers and officials."<8>

The Center for Cooperative Research says "Manipulating U.S. foreign policy isn¹t the only strategy in Halliburton¹s repertoire of means to securing profits. Another method that has apparently proven extremely successful is doing business with the government and bidding on contracts financed by U.S. dominated bilateral and multilateral aid agencies. Although Dick Cheney had once lashed out at Joseph I. Lieberman saying that his success at Halliburton 'had absolutely nothing to do with' the government, the real facts have shown otherwise." Cooperative Research calls this practice corporate welfare. The organization gives a detailed listing of Halliburton's business dealings in this regard.


http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Halliburton

COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS
Fifty-fifth session
Item 5 of the provisional agenda




THE RIGHT OF PEOPLES TO SELF-DETERMINATION AND ITS
APPLICATION TO PEOPLES UNDER COLONIAL OR ALIEN
DOMINATION OR FOREIGN OCCUPATION


Report on the question of the use of mercenaries as a means of
violating human rights and impeding the exercise of the
right of peoples to self-determination, submitted by
Mr. Enrique Bernales Ballesteros (Peru), Special Rapporteur
pursuant to Commission resolution 1998/6


http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/%28Symbol%29/E.CN.4.1999.1...


REGULATING THE NEW PRIVATEERS: PRIVATE MILITARY SERVICE CONTRACTING AND THE MODERN MARQUE AND REPRISAL CLAUSE
Matt Gaul
http://faculty.lls.edu/~manheimk/ns/gaul2.htm

INTERNATIONAL -- INT'L COVER STORY

Outsourcing War
An inside look at Brown & Root, the kingpin of America's new military-industrial complex

Early on the morning of Aug. 5, a U.S. mail convoy pulled out of the airport in Baghdad and headed north. A U.S. Army Humvee bristling with weaponry led the way, followed by three heavily loaded trucks, each driven by a civilian employee of Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR). A second military Humvee brought up the rear. Near Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's hometown, a bomb detonated under one of the trucks. The military police pried its driver, Fred Bryant Jr., from the wreckage and raced him to a military field hospital. Bryant, 39, died en route, the first KBR combat casualty since the Texas contractor was founded in 1919.

Bryant's death underscores the U.S. military's heavy reliance on private military companies, or PMCs, to wage war in Iraq. By most estimates, civilian contractors are handling as much as 20% to 30% of essential military support services in Iraq. Scores of PMCs are active all across the country, but KBR in particular has become indispensable to the global projection of American military might in this unsettled age. "It is no exaggeration to say that wherever the U.S. military goes, so goes Brown & Root," says P.W. Singer, a Brookings Institution fellow and author of Corporate Warriors. Widely known as Brown & Root, KBR is a unit of oil-services giant Halliburton Co. (HAL ) -- Dick Cheney's old company.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_37/b3849012.htm

[Name removed]

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