So my question is was Pat Tillman murdered? I was driving home

[othermeans]

to San Diego last Sunday and I was listening to KPFK (progressive radio station in LA). They were interviewing Robert Collier a journalist for the SF Chronicle
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL&hw=tillman&sn=001&sc=1000

He states that Tillman was shot not once but six times. The fatal shots being three head shots to the forehead in a pattern about the size of a half dollar. He went on to further state that for him to be shot in the head so accurately is nearly impossible while someone is riding along in a HUMVEE while under attack by the Afghan insurgents.

I'm no conspiracy guy but Tillman had been sent originally to Iraq,
where he complained bitterly that the war was illegal and that Bush had distracted the country from the war on terror. He later had made arrangements to meet with Noam Chomsky after returning from Afghanistan.

But here is the kicker: Tillman encouraged everyone in his unit to vote for John Kerry! After his death his uniform and body armor were burned by soldiers in his unit and his daily diary has disappeared.

The army is now working on it's fourth inquiry into his death

The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting." Patrick Tillman Sr., a San Jose lawyer, said he is furious about what he found in the volumes of witness statements and investigative documents the Army has given to the family. He decried what he calls a "botched homicide investigation" and blames high-ranking Army officers for presenting "outright lies" to the family and to the public.

[babylonsister]

1. His dad thinks so if he's talking about a

botched (on purpose?) homicide investigation. I heard friendly fire, but that doesn't sound at all friendly to me.

[donco6]

2. Whoa.

I hadn't heard of any of this. Wow. Fragging?

[othermeans]

3. I know neither had I

My ignorance allowed me to prejudge him as another dumb jock bent on killing some A-rabs. But according to Collier he was a very well read man. The only reason I would think that it was a homicide is the damage it would have done to the Republican party and the pro-war people.

The Reichsfuhrer especially

[wiley]

4. I don't think this is so far fetched

I put nothing past Rove, Libby or especially Cheney and Rumsfeld.

[Maccagirl]

5. You don't have to wear tin-foil to believe

that Pat Tillman was murdered. R.I.P. Mr. Tillman, your family and the progressive family will see to it that truth will out.

[jrw14125]

6. THIS NEEDS TO BE A MOVIE, AND SOON. OLIVER?

[othermeans]

7. Wow!! What a great idea. Wouldn't that put the nation on notice? nt

[Chipper Chat]

8. The Pat Tillman thing doesn't add up.

From the initial media reports - to leakage of his political leanings - to the outing of the army coverup - the dots have never connected. I get hunches like this about stories that smell, and this one's a major stinker.

[yurbud]

9. I wondered at the time since the timing was so

convenient, like the beheading of Nick Berg, who also turned out to be outside the neocon reservation.

[brentspeak]

10. This entire episode sounds ominous

His daily diary disappeared immediately following his death? How could that happen? That's the kicker, the diary. It's highly unusual, almost unheard of, for a fallen soldier's comrades not to collate properly the deceased's personal possessions for the family's sake.

Somebody didn't want the contents of that diary to be known. Granted, it's possible that Patrick Tillman himself may have instructed one of his buddies to destroy the diary in the event of his death. But that's just a speculative stretch.

One other thing: the revelation of Tillman's dislike for both Bush and the Iraq War should shame those individuals, such as Ted Rall, who ridiculed Patrick Tillman's enlistment. He clearly was not the boneheaded wannabe killer-of-Muslims that Rall (and even a few people here on DU) tried to pass off to the public.

[Torgo4]

11. I Posted This on Soldiers for the Truth Forum

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:49 am Post subject: Heads up
Attention Karl Rove, Ann Coulter, BIlly O'Reilly:
Quote:
“I can see it like a movie screen,” Baer said. “We were outside of (a city in southern Iraq) watching as bombs were dropping on the town. We were at an old air base, me, Kevin and Pat, we weren’t in the fight right then. We were talking. And Pat said, ‘You know, this war is so f— illegal.’ And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.”

Another soldier in the platoon, who asked not to be identified, said Pat urged him to vote for Bush’s Democratic opponent in the 2004 election, Sen. John Kerry.


Hooooooly cow!!! Any second now...the psycho-right will be telling us what a traitor Tillman was, how his attempted meeting with Chomsky was giving aid and comfort to the terrorists and how if weren't lucky enough to get killed in action, O'Reilly would brand him an "enemy of the state!"

The more I read about this guy, the more I can see he will be greatly missed by his country.
Tillman had everything it took to be a great warrior-statesman.

Maybe Bush/RoveCo took him out to make room for George P. Bush in 2040.

[othermeans]

12. In the interview the journalist said that Tillman was very interested in

history and philosophy. Reading voraciously, commenting and critiquing one of his comrades poems, encouraging him to continue with his writing. But the thing that I found interesting was that he was raised in a home where they had no tv! His parents encouraged all their children to read. To develop their own ideas.

I wish I could get a copy of the transcript from KPFK but I have contacted them and they haven't responded yet. Perhaps the journalist, Robert Collier (San Francisco Chronicle), could provide more details.

[MADem]

16. They burned his uniform, too. Very strange... n/t

[texpatriot2004]

17. They did? How odd. Is that a common practice? n/t

[MADem]

20. No, not at all

You generally put the remains in a bag, not strip the uni and burn it where the servicemember fell. If it isn't too badly damaged and the sight of it (battle damage) will not cause distress to the family, they will wash it sometimes and return it with the rest of the PEC (personal effects and clothing). I cannot see them using the 'covert ops' excuse, seeing as they were travelling in convoy formation, either.

The whole thing is very fishy, IMO. Early reports said he was yelling "I'm Pat Tillman, goddamn it" when he was being shot at, but the later reports would suggest that he didn't have time to say a goddamn thing. I also read here ( http://www.freezerbox.com/archive/blog.php?id=122 ) and elsewhere that he wanted to meet with Noam Chomsky.

Sad, how you cannot believe your own government anymore. They sold him as a package, and then when he no longer fit their mold, they first tried to cover it up, then trash the kid.

It has been bad before in this country, but this seems worse somehow to me than ever...

Other articles of interest:
FAMILY DEMANDS THE TRUTH: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL

Were witnesses allowed to change their testimony on key details, as alleged by one investigator? Why did internal documents on the case, such as the initial casualty report, include false information? When did top Pentagon officials know that Tillman’s death was caused by friendly fire, and why did they delay for five weeks before informing his family?

“There have been so many discrepancies so far that it’s hard to know what to believe,” Mary Tillman said. “There are too many murky details.” The files the family received from the Army in March are heavily censored, with nearly every page containing blacked-out sections; most names have been deleted. (Names for this story were provided by sources close to the investigation.) At least one volume was withheld altogether from the family, and even an Army press release given to the media has deletions. On her copies, Mary Tillman has added competing marks and scrawls — countless color-coded tabs and angry notes such as “Contradiction!” “Wrong!” and “????”

A Chronicle review of more than 2,000 pages of testimony, as well as interviews with Pat Tillman’s family members and soldiers who served with him, found contradictions, inaccuracies and what appears to be the military’s attempt at self-protection.

For example, the documents contain testimony of the first investigating officer alleging that Army officials allowed witnesses to change key details in their sworn statements so his finding that certain soldiers committed “gross negligence” could be softened.

A COVER UP AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/a-coverup-at-the-highest_b_7878.html

The Chronicle's report not only strengthens the evidence that the Pentagon deliberately covered up Tillman's death from friendly-fire to better exploit him as a PR tool, it reveals that:

--Tillman joined the Army specifically to fight Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, but was sent to participate in the invasion of Iraq against his wishes. He called the invasion, "so fucking illegal."

--He was an avid reader and fan of Noam Chomsky. Tillman was scheduled to meet Chomsky upon his return from Afghanistan.

--Tillman was an independent-minded, outspoken Bush critic who planned to vote for John Kerry.

--On April 23, 2004, a day after he was killed, Tillman's bullet-riddled body armor was burned by a soldier. That same day, all Army Ranger top commanders were informed of the suspected fratricide.

--Two days later, Tillman's uniform was burned.

--On April 30, Tillman was awarded the Silver Star for bravery. "Through the firing Tillman’s voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground,” the Army stated.

--Three days later, acting Army Secretary Lee Brownlee was told of Tillman's death by fratricide.

--On May 29, once Tillman's PR value had been exhausted, the Army admitted to his family that his death was a fratricide.

--ON November 14, an officer who interrogated Rangers involved in Tillman's killing stated he thought some could have been charged with "criminal intent" and other with "gross negligence."

--Portions of the Pentagon's report on Tillman's death were deleted.

The question now is, what did Donald Rumsfeld know about Tillman's death and when did he know it? If Army Ranger commanders and the Army Secretary knew Tillman was killed in a fratricide, Rumsfeld must have known too. The fact that when Tillman first joined the Army, Rumsfeld personally commended him with a signed letter seems especially relevant now. If Rumsfeld knew the nature of Tillman's killing in April, 2004, he undoubtedly directed the cover-up. And if Rumsfeld directed the cover-up, Karl Rove was aware of it, if not actively involved in exploiting it.

Supposedly John McCain has taken up the Tillman family's case in the Senate. If he's serious, he will convene hearings on the cover-up and compel Rumsfeld to testify. Until then, the Pentagon is conducting its own probe of Tillman's death, thus ensuring a newer, more sophisticated cover-up than ever before.

[texpatriot2004]

23. Thank you so much for this reply. I wonder what those who were

there thought about the uniform being burned? The impression I got from your post is that they burned it there where it happened? Did I get that right?

I think you are right, this is worse than what we have faced before.

What, besides EVIL, do you call people who send their own troops into this quagmire?

[MADem]

26. Yes, the uni never made it back with the remains to even be processed

for shipment to Delaware. It was ashes in Afghanistan, near where he died, is what I was given to understand. It is mentioned in this article from last May: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/03/AR2005050301502.html

The next day, Tillman's Ranger body armor was burned because it was covered in blood and was considered a "biohazard." His uniform was also burned. Jones noted that this amounted to the destruction of evidence.

Soldiers reported they burned the evidence because "we knew at the time, based on taking the pictures and walking around it it was a fratricide. . . . We knew in our hearts what had happened, and we weren't going to lie about it. So we weren't thinking about proof or anything."

An initial investigation found fratricide just days later. Top commanders within the U.S. Central Command, including Abizaid, were notified by April 29 -- four days before Tillman's memorial service in San Jose, where he was given a posthumous Silver Star Award. Jones concluded that Tillman, who was bravely leading his fire team into battle, was given the award based on what he intended to do.

The family learned about Tillman's fratricide over Memorial Day weekend, several weeks later. Commanders felt they could not hold on to the old version because the Rangers were returning home and "everybody knows the story," the documents show.

The thing is, this kid was still quite junior, but because of his name and fame and reputation, he had a lot of clout -- granted, it was clout OUTSIDE the military chain, but the kind of clout that could bring the pain INSIDE the organization.

I am starting to wonder what he saw that troubled him to the point that he wanted to talk to Noam Chomsky, and WHO ELSE might he have wanted to speak with?? And if this was a simple accident, why go to such lengths to cover it up? They would have been far better off just saying that he died in an accident, instead of turning him, like that poor little girl who got badly hurt when the vehicle went off the road, into Rambo taking the hill. It's lying, cover ups, and more lies on top of those.

[texpatriot2004]

27. I thought about that aspect of his celebrity status which works

well if you can use him for your agenda but not so well if he thinks for himself and figures out your agenda.

About the lying I think that's the policy of this regime...not the military in general, but from the thief in chief et al. Of course, lying is what evil does. Lie then lie to cover it up, then lie about the cover up...and on and on.

Fratricide, is that a fancy word for killed by his own side?

Someone decided to tell the story because "everyone knows about it" - who survived?

[MADem]

28. Fraticide is a bit more brutal than "friendly fire"

The latter is always viewed to be an accident, the former can be accidental OR deliberate.

Most of that unit survived, and his brother, who was also serving nearby, and knew a lot of those guys, brought the body home. They knew it was only a matter of time before someone told him the whole story, they just tried to get out in front of it and hope that everyone would keep their mouths shut.

Didn't work, did it?

[texpatriot2004]

29. Doesn't look like it. It seems unlikely that it would. His brother

must surely have learned the details of what acutally happened from at least some of the survivors.

[cassiepriam]

13. Fragging was common in the Viet Nam war? Will happen in Iraq too. nt

[stillcool]

14. Afghanistan...

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

15. Everyone connected with...

...his death needs to be polygraphed. This has a funny way of ferreting out the truth.

[texpatriot2004]

18. What is fragging? n/t

[NMDemDist2]

19. fragging is a term used when Officers get shot by their own men in combat

from Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frag_%28military%29

Frag (military)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Frag is a term from the Vietnam war, most commonly meaning to assassinate an unpopular member of one's own fighting unit by dropping a fragmentation grenade into the victim's tent at night. The idea was that the attack would be blamed on the enemy, and, due to the dead man's unpopularity, no one would contradict the cover story. Fragging could also imply intentional friendly fire during combat. The intended victim of a fragging was sometimes given warnings, of which the first might be a grenade pin on the sheet of the victim, and later on, a tear gas grenade.

Fragging most often involved the killing of an unpopular or inept commanding officer or a senior noncommissioned officer. If a C.O. was incompetent, the belief was that fragging the officer was an extreme means to the ends of self preservation for the men serving under him. The nightmarish vision of fragging served as a warning to the junior officers to avoid earning the ire of the enlisted men being commanded through recklessness, cowardice, or lack of leadership. Fragging might also occur when the commander of the particular unit was either a very harsh person or freely took on dangerous and suicidal missions, especially if he was deemed to be seeking glory for himself.

[texpatriot2004]

25. Thank you for the definition of "fragging" I get it now. This last

part was interesting.

The nightmarish vision of fragging served as a warning to the junior officers to avoid earning the ire of the enlisted men being commanded through recklessness, cowardice, or lack of leadership. Fragging might also occur when the commander of the particular unit was either a very harsh person or freely took on dangerous and suicidal missions, especially if he was deemed to be seeking glory for himself.

[MADem]

21. They'd often use Claymores to do it--front towards enemy

[texpatriot2004]

24. Thank you for the visual. nm

[tom_paine]

22. Yes. I believe he was murdered.

But so much of the evidence was destroyed or stolen, such as his diary.

We will never know, and as ususal, the Bushevik criminals will get away with it.