"He's too conservative to get elected."

[Armstead]

Never hear that these days do you? Despite the extremism of the Bush administration, that is never cited as a factor in his "electability."

But even someone who is as basically as moderate as Howard Dean is branded by the media pundits and political gurus as "too liberal" and is -- ohmyGod -- "pulling the Democratic Party too far to the left."

Dennis Kucinich? Forget it. He's off the charts whacky for daring to propose things like fair trade, expansion of Medicare or cutting the fat and the science-fiction weapons systems out of the defense budget.

But when a politician proposes gutting social and public services and using your tax dollars to fund fundamentalist Christian missionary work, they are never called on it. When a politician proposes or supports an Imperial Empire Agenda, or rolling back Civil Rights, etc. they are never called too conservative.

What a foolish and stupid country we are sometimes for letting a handful of smug corporate pundits and sold-off politicians mold our system and brainwash us so completely.

[impeach the gop]

1. BRAVO

Very, Very Perfectly said. You nail em on the head my friend.

[UpInArms]

2. got link?

eom

[NewYorkerfromMass]

31. Got GD?

seems to be down.

[xray s]

3. Ironically, at one time that was a common mantra in the Republican party

Back in the 60's. remember Goldwater? In the 70's everyone forgets Reagan's first run for the WH was in '76. He lost to Ford, and was branded too conservative by moderates in the Republican party.

Well, moderate Republicans today are as rare as Bush telling the truth.

How did it happen? I have to give them credit. They worked hard at the grassroots level, built a strong loyal base, and took over Republican party operatus to ensure no one muddled their message.

Of course, their message is full of lies and they steal elections, but the way they have nutured their base and stayed on their message, in spite of all the early warning of "too conservative" and "can't win", is something we should be studying very closely.

Sometimes it makes sense to borrow the tactics of your enemy.

[Gman]

6. You are correct

The GOP gets credit their relentless message sticking. Right now, it's in concrete.

On the other hand, I'm noticing that the "neo-con" label has the potential to have a decidedly negative conotation. But, are message on this is a wild scatter gun approach at best.

[CWebster]

18. Strange, isn't it?

Our party apparatus seems to disdain it's base to the extent that they would broadcast it in every venue in the land.

[SharonAnn]

28. Call them "Cheap Labor Conservatives"

Let's start calling it what it is.

[Armstead]

4. OOOps.

Moderators -- This was intended for General Discussion, not Late Breaking News.

Feel free to move it.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vi5]

7. I haven't seen a study on it, but I would bet.....

That even though more people probably agree with democratic policies, that if you are just talking strict terminology more people in this country would be comfortable identifying themselves as "conservative" than they would "liberal". Yes, I know that the definitions of both words have mutated but I'm speaking in general. Most people would like to think of themselves as safe, cautious, and (at least in theory) fiscally responsible. Like it or not those are considered traditionally "conservative" descriptions.

I'm not saying any of this is good or right, but I would wager that it's true.

[Monte Carlo]

8. Regression is easy, progression is hard.

That's the best comment I can make. It is easy to appeal to people's tribal instincts and rally around ultra-nationalist causes under the banner of 'patriotism'. To make them instead gather around a higher purpose than Us vs. Them is hard.

As far as Dean being the pinko he's made out to be, that's just good ol' fashioned FUD; fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Always a good tactic to divide the enemy. I think once word of his 'A' rating from the NRA gets out, the far-left label will be harder to pin on him, and may become absurd.

[kwolf68]

9. Good observation

This follows the decades long recipe of what I would call “association of labeling.”

Essentially, the Republican machine has gone out of its way to couch ANYTHING and EVERYTHING purported to be “Liberal” in nature corrupt, inefficient, extreme, unpatriotic, socialist, evil and dangerous.

Simply mentioning the word “Liberal” and tossing it at a candidate, group or issue and you may as well have the scarlet letter on your chest.

This form of name calling allows the Republicans to “win” a debate without discussing the issues/ideas. They simply yell, “Liberal” in hopes to scare the ignorant masses back into their caves or better yet to the voting polls to pull the lever for right-wingers.

The only way to combat this is NOT to run from the word Liberal, but to DEFEND it head on. And go in one further and expose the ideas COUNTER (likely Conservative) the Liberal idea.

Paul Wellstone wasn’t scare to do this and I believe in time with his leadership he would have championed a “new school” Liberal movement in this nation, that while being innovative and unique in its approach still a variation of the classic Liberalism that brought us social justice, womens suffrage, workers rights, civil rights, clean environment, truth in advertising laws, child labor laws, etc., etc.

The greatest Liberals of our time? Ghandi, Jesus Christ, FDR
The greatest Conservatives of our time? Ronald Regan and Cotton Mather

[RandomKoolzip]

10. Should this be in LBN?

Good point, but shouldn't this thread be in GD?

[Armstead]

19. Yup

I posted here by accident. Hoping a mod moves it to General Discussion.

[kwolf68]

11. As far as Kucnich

I don’t believe he is “too Libeal” to be elected. I don’t believe he has that “appeal” that could bring in anyone other than those of us political hacks really in-tuned to what he’s saying.

Wellstone, I believe, was almost as Liberal as Kucinich but with the proper backing could have won big-time, because he had a certain charisma, charm, humor about him. He had a unique way of talking about “revolution” that made it sound so pretty a peaceful.

Kucinich appears meaner, angier … and the mass voters aren’t appealed by that. Just an observation. I think he’s got the best ideas, but for all intents and purposes that’s not enough.

[liberalmuse]

12. Another 'Big Lie'...B.S...Horse hockey...

I'll bet if many of our Democratic candidates stopped trying to run as Republicrats, more liberals would come out to vote, and they'd get a larger support of the moderates than we've been led to believe. I know people who listen to Rush Limbaugh and who adore W, but when they talk, they sound more liberal than right-wingnut. I think some of them have let themselves be brainwashed, because they just don't bother to gather accurate information.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if a liberal ran--one who is not afraid to speak out. Dean, though he could be labeled as 'conservative', does not seem afraid to speak out on many issues considered 'too liberal'. It worked for Kennedy before civil rights, and I believe it will work now. Dean is the only candidate I see who can stir up those who've been so disillusioned they haven't bothered to go to the polls since Clinton first ran.

BTW, I do believe Lieberman will alienate many, MANY liberals, including myself. I will vote if he runs, but Green or Independent. I've never voted Republican in my life, and I won't start in 2004.

[molly]

13. Help Gov. Dean Get The NRA's Endorsement?

Is this why the pugs love him?

"Gov. Dean is the only Democrat running for President to have received an "A" rating from the NRA. Dean's position on sensible gun laws should merit the NRA's endorsement of him for the democratic nomination. If the NRA, and it's 5 million plus members, were to endorse Dean it would bring a windfall of support."

http://www.boomundo.com/dean/nra.htm

[Videlicet03]

14. The country is not of the left, it is of the middle.....

and only a middle of the road guy can get elected. Name for me the last time an avowed liberal ran as a liberal and won in a landslide. 1936??

[On the Road]

15. Last Time? 1964

Coincidentally, the last time there was a GOP candidate who was too conservative to be elected.

[Videlicet03]

17. LBJ ran as Camelot's courtier

God himself couldn't have beaten Kennedy's ghost in 1964.

[TahitiNut]

21. Traffic Circle reasoning.

While I often eschew automobile analogies ...

When you turn the steering wheel LEFT, you're reacting to a perception of being too far right. That's FDR apres Hoover, JFK apres Eisenhower, Carter apres Nixon/Ford, and Clinton apres Bush -- all of whom ran with a 'vision' message. (Too far 'left' is often equated to head-on collisions with oncoming traffic. That's why 'vision' wins when steering left.)

When you turn the steering wheel RIGHT, you're reacting to a perception of being too far left. That's Eisenhower apres Truman, Reagan apres Carter, Nixon apres Johnson, and Bush apres Clinton -- all of whom ran with a 'moderate' (fog) message. (Too far 'right' often equates with parking. That's 'safe' in the fog.)

You avoid turning the wheel so far that you lose "control" or keep turning it after you think it's been turned enough. That's why Truman won. That's why Goldwater lost. That's why McGovern lost.

When you think you can't safely turn it far enough, you either panic and turn the wheel the wrong way or you take your hands off the wheel and brace for impact. That, I suspect, is why Bush may win. (It feels like the right wheels are off in the gravel and sand, doesn't it?)

It's the 'vision' thing -- or lack thereof (fog). :shrug:


On edit: Please note how the analogy interestingly extends to Japan and the UK -- where they drive on the left. Is it any wonder that there's a distinction between a 'Liberal' and an 'American Liberal'?
:silly:

[TahitiNut]

35. {cough}

:kick:

[StopThief]

16. Ummm.......

Wouldn't it sound a little strange to say that someone who has already been elected is "too conservative to get elected"?

On edit: Quote wasn't exactly right.

[0007]

20. You got it Toyota!!

.......and we wonder why one out five persons in this country are mentally ill.

Are we in that twenty percent or is Washington the twenty percent? Here I go gettin' mixed up again, 'eh?

[dArKeR]

22. No Dem. can get elected so lets all kill ourselves. Rove's plan for us.

1 year away and everything has been decided. Or has The Bush Crime Family rigged the election already?

http://darkerxdarker.tripod.com/

[SOS]

23. There's no Republican Leadership Council

splitting their party in half either. Despite the extreme rightward shift of the Rep. party, there's no RLC urging moderation of the message, trying to push the party back to the center.
The Dems need to consolidate their message and never waver from it.
Whoever the Dem nominee is, the party will need to unite behind a solid convention platform. That platform, and not the pathetic ranting of the DLC, must be our direction for the future. And then, like Republicans, we must unite behind the nominee and ONE solid message.
If we're gonna copy the Republicans, let's grab their political strategy, not their political agenda.

[davidinalameda]

30. actually there are groups of Republican moderates

and they're trying to pushing the party back to the middle

they're pissing against the wind right now

[VermontYankee]

24. You the one?

The problem is that the debate is being lost. A few voices are dominating. There is no inspired leader on the left,. The job is available.
Could be someone here?

issues ideas and inspiration

No to
"stupid racist homophobic pugs liars....
used to describe this
"junta and how bad and evil nazilike and horrid they are."

thats gonna change peoples minds?
You ever persuaded by Ann Coulter?
Right.
See my point?

How about to start:
Lets universally drop the extreme language?

Think, Nazi's killed millions of people. Gathered em up, trucked and trained em to camps, shot em hung em cut em up drowned em and
Burned em in ovens. Out of respect and an intelligent and aware view of the most horrid episode in human history, please
honor that memory
by reserving that word for that hellish center of the 20th century?

BTW
Do not say that to your grandfather,
Bush is a nazi,
You will likely get one on the nose.
His friends are dead. Or his Dad. Or his uncle. Okay?
Killed by
real Nazis.

*****************************
The hard job for you as fearless and inspirational leader is persuasion.

Keep in mind:
There is no "They".
There is no "us"
"They" live next door,
have children in school,
worry about the future.

Be a hardass when you got to be.

Bush's hardass attitude has near universal appeal.
JFK.
FDR.
Churchill.
Reagan.
Okay?
The rest is details.
Because
Someone messes with your sister or son or whatever, what you do?

From the Terminator to Gangstas to mom and pop
here in lovely Vermont.

mess with us, pay 100 times.


Bush is not a favorite of conservatives. Reagan is. Bush is Reagan lite. No matter how many times you say "extreme right wing " etc. Its not so.
Doubt this? Open any conservatrive forum.

_________________________________________________________________

Big point for you:

NADER VOTES cost gore the election.


Fact:

from Videlicet03
"and only a middle of the road guy can get elected. Name for me the last time an avowed liberal ran as a liberal and won in a landslide. 1936?? "

your problem:

from liberalmuse "BTW, I do believe Lieberman will alienate many, MANY liberals, including myself. I will vote if he runs, but Green or Independent. I've never voted Republican in my life, and I won't start in 2004."

Because

hardcore conservatives vote R. No matter what.
Hardgore liberals stay home, or vote for...Phil Donahue?

*******************************************************************
Off Topic
Who will be next years third party?
My money is on the Reverend. With a lot of help from his friends, a bus ride here...a meal...a place to stay...a place to speak.

Dean as dark horse. ...internet money source...
"For the people"

"For a Bush victory"

[CWebster]

26. You're new around here, aren't you?

Much of it is venting and bottled-up frustration.

Although..there is the other extreme of over-civility to consider, used as a shield to avoid the uncomfortable realities for those who are unwilling to admit it. That is also what happened in Nazi Germany--people, out of fear or ignorance, refused to call it what it was.

It is as bad as it appears to be and if someone can't be convinced of that by noww, no reasonable language and well-chosen words are bound to convince them when the entire media- off the web, is carrying water.

[loyalsister]

25. That's because...

in general everyday language, "conservative" is a positive quality to most people. Dean pointed out in his announcement speech that Bush isn't conservative he's a radical.
We would do well to abandon "liberal" AND "conservative" as classifications. They aren't. They're adjectives and have been misused in politics.
Most people I know describe themselves as "conservative" in one way or another. Sometimes it just means not very outspoken, doesn't "party" a lot, saves money, shops carefully, just doesn't dress flambouyantly. It doesn't always speak for their political beliefs, it's just a word that is descriptive of a point on a sort of directional scale.
When applied to politics , I think it would be so much more appropriate to use descriptive language to label left and right in terms of magnitude. If conservative because when used as a measure it means "restrained" or limited. Thus on the spectrum, the middle is the group that restrains themselves from thinking about it much.

"rad lft" "lib lft" "con lft" <con> "con rt" "lib rt" "rad rt"

Notice, a "liberal" RWer would be appoaching the Bush administration. Some have said we sould get rid of the label. Maybe a more successful strategy would be to correct the language. I think what I have described above might be the most intuitive and automatic application of the words "liberal" and "conservative.". What happens is many people who are not politically astute WANT to be able to describe themselves as conservative because that is where their comfort zone is for most things. (how they dress, not making scenes in public, being frugal with their money, etc.)
Rather than getting rid of the label entirely, I think maybe there is a better way to use it.

[Aristus]

27. Excellent post, sister.

I don't think anyone could have said it better. :thumbsup:

[Armstead]

29. Labels

Technially I agree with you. Left and right would be better descriptive terms.


However, that dynamic still applies, because to many peope "left" will still equate with liberal or "radical. ("Progressive" is another one, although that is depending on how one defines "progress.")

Also, I believe people are both conservative and liberal by nature. Conservative does mean cautious and in favor of stability over anarchy and chaos. However, "liberal" means being open to new ideas, tolerant and caring of others. I think most people also see those as positive qualities.

Although I am a lefty, I also see myself as a conservative. But I'm also probably radical, because I believe we need major changes in the direction of the country....However my liberalism and radicalism is also rooted in conservatism. I want to conserve the best qualities of the country -- which the present system under the pseudo-conservatives is being thrown out. And we need to be radical to even bring about reasonable reform in the present climate.

It all gets confusing. But -- at least in the current meanings of the term -- we're kind of stuck with liberal as a catchall term for our general set of beliefs in an agenda that is in contrast to the Darwinian bleakness of current conservatism.

Loberalism is also reflective of the progressive tradition, which we shold embrace and be proud of, rather than reject.

[robbedvoter]

32. Actually W will impersonate a moderate/Dem when campaigning

just as he did in 2000. He'll get away with it too - the media will throw all the nutty stuff in the memory hole, and he'll be conservative again. And, no, GOP doesn't have any dissent in its ranks (except now, on individual basis) - there's nothing new here). He'll sound sooo liberal, anything to the east of him will be positively commie. And DLC is buying it, before it's even being sold, that's all.

[w4rma]

33. Does the corporate media only say that about conservatives when

the conservative is one that doesn't "moderate" to the wishes of big buisness boards of directors?

[ZenLefty]

34. I'd like to move this thread to GD

but GD is down. For the duration of the down time, it wouldn't be a bad idea to take a little break from GD discussions. I really think it would be good for us.

In the spirit of that, I'm locking this thread. Once GD comes back online, perhaps then I'll unlock it and move it over.

ZenLefty
DU Moderator