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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:08 PM
Original message
Need help refuting a co-worker wingnut...
He says Joe Kennedy (father of JFK) was involved with the mafia and made the Kennedy fortune through bootlegging during prohibition. This can't be even partially true.

HELP!!!
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HERVEPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bootlegging - yes , mafia ?
Relevance to anything current - 0.00
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Not true - an "urban legend"
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Liberator_Rev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. Was Joe Kennedy a REPUBLICAN at the time ???
Wasn't Joe Kennedy a REPUBLICAN prior to becoming involved with F.D.R. ???

If so, it would be wonderful to be able to answer: "Oh yes, Joe Kennedy was a very scummy person prior to his conversion from the Republican to the Democratic Party!"
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austinboy Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:12 PM
Original message
Bototlegging...I think that to be true.
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cherryperry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. First of all, why is he even talking about this?
However, since he is, Joe Kennedy Sr. did make a fortune through bootlegging! He also was sympathetic to the Nazis before and during the war ... not a nice guy!
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. If you want to have an "oh yeah?" kind of response
you could always say that Bush's grandfather did business with Nazis and had his assets confiscated in 1942 for violating the Trading with the Enemy Act.

But, yes, Joe Kennedy had an unsavory past. Cheated on his wife, too, from what I understand.

And, as someone pointed out above, what's the relevance to anything going on right now? Talk to your friend about the Carlyle Group. That's a helluva lot more relevant to what's happening now.
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. I wouldn't call him so much pro Nazi as
anti British, at least until December 7th.
He was Irish, after all.
Legend in my family (in other words, I have no proof) was that Joe Kennedy made his fortune by being the first guy across the Canadian border with booze when Prohibition ended.
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OldSoldier Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
31. He's deflecting blame away from Dubya
Okay, so Bush did lie about Iraq having nuclear weapons. About his having chemical weapons, UAVs to deliver them with...his daddy's in bed with the Bin Ladens and his entire administration should be in General Population in Huntsville. But Joe Kennedy was a bootlegger and a stock manipulator, so that makes everything Bush's people are pulling just fine and dandy.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why can't it be true?...
He DID make his money from bootlegging.
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AlabamaYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bootlegging is pretty well established
A lot of respectable entrepreneurs were in the business of providing appropriate beverages direct from Canada. I doubt there was any strong connection with organized crime - the "Mafia" was just getting started then.

But the best response to an assertion like that is, "So what's your point?"
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Joe worked for the SEC
to restore confidence in the Stock Market during the great depression.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. And Prescott Bush collaborated with the Nazis.
Is that what we're arguing about? Plus, why is this guy harping on the Kennedies STILL after all the shit they've gone through? Anyone can see that the Kennedy clan has been the victim of a horrid smear campaign that extends to your retarded co-worker buddy.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. "Behind every great fortune there is a crime"
Yeah. Old Joe was a bootlegger.

He didn't bank the Nazi's like Smirk's grandfather Prescott Bush, as far as I know.
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. That actually is true from what I know
Unfortunately your coworker is right on this issue.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Old Joe DID produce some nice kids though .....
Forward-looking and moved to public service .....

ONE gave his life in military service ....

TWO gave their lives in public service ....

A mighty fine family was Joes ..... Indeed ......
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
11. Not True - a relative did own a salon/bar and was Mayor of Boston.
But that was before Joe.

Joe made his money in the market - and as someone noted above, he was chosen by FDR to close on the loopholes that screw the little guy by being the guy who started the SEC and set down the needed rules.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Not True - a relative did own a salon/bar and was Mayor of Boston.
But that was before Joe.

Joe made his money in the market - and as someone noted above, he was chosen by FDR to close on the loopholes that screw the little guy by being the guy who started the SEC and set down the needed rules.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. Not True - a relative did own a salon/bar and was Mayor of Boston.
But that was before Joe.

Joe made his money in the market - and as someone noted above, he was chosen by FDR to close on the loopholes that screw the little guy by being the guy who started the SEC and set down the needed rules.
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Brian Sweat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
15. Eddie (From the Styx album Cornerstone 1979)
Written by james young
Lead vocals by james young

I woke up today, the papers spoke of a man we know
He’s made of the stuff they say that first made our country grow
Living in style, traveling to distant lands
Better hang tough, for now it’s time to make your stand
Can we ignore the basic facts of history
Or deny what people say is destiny
I think the message is ever so loud and clear

Eddie, now don’t you run
You know you’re a bootlegger’s son
And you saw just what it’s done to the others
Eddie, now don’t you run
It’s the end of all your fun
And you saw just what they’ve done
To your brothers

Can we ignore the basic facts of history
Or deny what people say is destiny
First in the eighties but last of the sons
First in the eyes of his countrymen
I think the message is ever so loud and clear

Eddie, now don’t you run
You know you’re a bootlegger’s son
And you saw just what it’s done to the others
Eddie, now don’t you run
It’s the end of all your fun
And you saw just what they’ve done
To your brothers
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jafap Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. I can hear that song in my head
I never understood the words before - thanx.
Maybe Irish Mafia instead of Italian - IRA.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. Not True - a relative did own a salon/bar and was Mayor of Boston.
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 03:31 PM by papau
But that was before Joe (it was "Honey Fritz").

Joe made his money in the market - and as someone noted above, he was chosen by FDR to close all the loopholes that screw the little guy by being the guy who started the SEC and set down the needed rules.

Joe as bootlegger may well have been an avocation - or even a vocation - at some point - but it certainly was not with the Mafia (does this fellow know anything about the Mafia? - my family were friends of some in Chicago - including Big Al - referred to not by name but as the "big man" :-) but the rules stopped non Sicilian from getting executive positions!) - and it certainly was not the way Joe made his fortune.

From: http://www.urbanlegends.com/politics/kennedy_fortune.html

Joseph P. Kennedy was the ambitious son of a prosperous Boston saloonkeeper and ward boss. He married the mayor's daughter, went to Harvard, and generally made the most of his ample connections and talent. He ran a bank at twenty-five and was number two man at a shipyard with more than two thousand workers during World War I. At thirty he became a stockbroker and made a fortune through insider trading and stock manipulation. He was a master of the stock pool, a then-legal stunt in which a few traders conspired to inflate a stock's price, selling out just before the bubble burst.

Kennedy may also have traded in illegal booze, although the evidence is circumstantial. His father had been in the liquor business before Prohibition, and Joe himself got into it (publicly, that is) immediately after repeal. Some believe the family business simply went underground during the dry years. He may have been strictly a nickel-and-dimer; Harvard classmates say he supplied the illicit booze for alumni events. Kennedy's real strength wasn't his alleged criminal ties but his business smarts, notably an exquisite sense of timing. In the mid-1920s he became a movie mogul (taking time out for a celebrated dalliance with Gloria Swanson), then organized a merger anda sold out just when the industry was consolidating, clearing $5 to $6 million all told. He pulled out of stocks early in 1929 and sold short following the crash, actually making money while others got creamed. Just before Prohibition was repealed he lined up several lucrative liquor-importing deals.

By the 1930s Kennedy was rich, but he didn't make serious money by modern standards until he got into real estate in a big way during World War II, raking in an estimated $100 million.

From copy of _JFK:Reckless Youth_ (By Nigel Hamilton, ISBN 0-679-74880-6) After the war (WW1), he joined the firm of Hayden, Stone and Company in Boston as a stockbroker. The investments that he had made during the war had been mixed, so now "...he set about mastering the secrets of insider trading, management pools, and selling short. Soon he was hhead of the stocks department and on his way to his first million..." "Joseph P. Kennedy had made his first big killing in the winter of 1923. For an outlay of only $24,000---on credit---he'd used insider information given him by Galen Stone and had reaped a profit of more than a half a million dollars---$675,000---in fact---on Pond Creek Coal Company shares. <...> Sitting in his office, <...> Joe Kennedy now indulged in financial larceny on vast an unseen scale, manipulating share pricess with other hands in secret stock pools designed specifically to hoodwink investors. His growing expertise neeted him a second fortune in the spring of 1924..." Joe's further dealings are many and varied, including film deals, and not all as profitable as the insider trading. He also tried to become a wire-puller in politics, and helped to elect Roosevelt president in 1932. However, he often overrated his talents and achievements.

The next quote is the only on in the whole book that actually mentions liquor at all: "...November 1933. Mr. Kennedy had abandoned plans to see Mussolini. Instead, having used Jimmy Roosevelt to open doors that would have otherwise been closed to him, Kennedy managed to obtain the exclusive United States distributership for Haig & Haig, Gordon't Dry Gin, Pinchbottle, and other British liquors in anticipation of the repeal of Prohibition."

And finally, a little irony:

"On June 28, 1934, President Roosevelt finally rewarded Kennedy for his work in the 1932 election campaign. Countering all objections with the words "it takes a thief to catch a thief," he appointed Joeseph P. Kennedy the first chairman of a new regulatory agency to tidy up the nation's stock market: the Securities and Exchange Commission, or SEC. To the consternation of all, the notorious stock-market swindler Joeseph P. Kennedy would become stock-market reformer."

In short, Joe Sr. was a pretty ruthless and unethical businessman who made his pile with shady stock deals. He later tried to buy respectability in the political scene. He, however, never appears to have smuggled liquor, and, quite frankly, as he was making money hand over fist with the stock market (in many cases quite legally doing what the SEC was later set up to stop from happening) it seems unlikely that he would have bothered with something so patently illegal.




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bfusco Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. agree
I saw a biography on Joe Kennedey on A+E and a biographer of his was emphatic that the bootleger claim is completly false. I did some research and it supports the information in the link you provided. He made is fortune in the stock market. He definitly was not an angel but not a bootlegger. I don't know what the relevance is but you could point out to your co-worker about how Bush's reached their political and economic fortunes.
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patmacsf Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. 'fraid so
That's pretty much a known fact.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
18. So!!! Is there something wrong with being a bootlegger?
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 03:33 PM by Bandit
I mean if Bill Bennett can write a book on morals and yet drink his scotch and smoke his cigarettes and gamble his illgotten money what is wrong with Joe Kennedy providing relief for millions during prohibition? Broke a law that virtually every single politician broke daily. :shrug: Isn't Clinton's cock important to them anymore?
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. I guess the difference would be that
liquor is legal today, and wasn't legal during Prohibition.
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maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
20. I fail to see the revelance
If he/she's going to argue that then hit him/her with these two gems:

George Washington grew hemp.
Thomas Jefferson screwed his black female slaves.

Has about as much to do with current events as what Joe Kennedy did.
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freethought Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
21. Everyone got it almost correct.
Hate to break this to you but, Joe Kennedy did make alot of cash bootlegging, one of the favorite activities of the early Irish mob. He also made alot of money with some sleazy stock deals. Why was he head of the newly formed SEC? Roosevelt put him there. Roosevelt figured maybe it takes a thief to catch a thief and no one knows a thief better than a thief. Joe K. screwed a lot of people on Wall Street.

Joe Kennedy was also ambassaduer to Great Britain prior to WWII. Alot of people thought that Joe K.
was some sort of closet facist. Joe K. had reservations about going after Hitler and the Reich
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Source - beyond FBI purchased Maffia Mob comments?
In Boston the FBI were proven to be liars - and now a fellow who spent 30 years in prison for a conviction that the FBI knew - even before he was arrested - was wrong - but still helpped and pushed local police to put him in jail -

is sueing the FBI for $300 million for the 30 years he spent in prison so the FBI could look good.








So do you have any research that you can point to - Irish mob facts are fair game - if you can find them.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. W's grandfather funded Hitler and profited from
the labor of the vitims in the camps. Bootlegging is nothing compared to that.
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VoteClark Donating Member (775 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Actually, what he did was. . .
He sold explosives to Hitler, and copper piping used in explosives. FDR invaded his home at least 3 times for building explosives that were killing our troops over there. He did also send money, but lots of people supported Hilter over here until we declared war. Charles Limburgh, Walt Disney, and Henry Ford to name a few. Even prominate politicans and the Prime Minister of Britian. It was because Hitler attacked the Jews. Most Americans hated Jews and subscribed to Hitler's speeches, he was a motivational speaker and many White Christians agreed with his beliefs and ideals.

J4Clark
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. The Kennedys are Catholic (n/t)
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. ...and Catholics of that era...
...weren't exactly pals of the "Christ Killers", y'know.

It wasn't until Vatican II (I think)that anti-semitism was officially dropped from church doctrine.
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
26. Surprised you weren't told that Joe Kennedy singlehandedly caused...
the Great Depression. The wingnut version of this usually goes something like:

"Joe had big holdings in the stock market. Prior to the crash, he sold short and put his money in safe investments. By doing this, Joe impacted the market to the extent that he helped cause its collapse. Joe did this knowing full well what it would do to the market..."

Bullshit.

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VoteClark Donating Member (775 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
28. He did, as a matter of fact that is how he got rich, LOL, everyone
knows that.

He had a ship sitting off the coast of the United States on the night prohibition was legalized and send it in right after. Before that he bought stock on the margin. He would even buy his own stock to drive up the cost up and then sell it for a huge amount. It was rather funny really. So many people did that it made the stock market crash.

What he did was buy a stock ten cents on the dollar, than buy lots of them to drive the price up, than sell it when the price went way high.

He was involved in bootlegging in Boston, but who wasn't. Obviously, the mafia was involved in boolegging, that was what they did.

Joe was a trickster, that does not mean the rest of his family was. I like the Kennedys, but the truth is the truth.

J4Clark
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
32. "The Kennedy's Ate My Homework!" (Republican Mantra)
So, now it's Joe Kennedy's fault that El Smirko lied in the State of The Union?


FWIW, the 'bootlegging' allegations (during Prohibition, no less, when half of America was drinking 'bootleg' booze!) have never been substantiated. Yes, Joe Kennedy bought the exclusive US distribution rights for a variety of overseas/Canadian distilled spirits. At a time that such spirits were illegal and the 'rights' were worthless unless Prohibition (a Constitutional amendment, no less) was repealed, this was a very shrewd move -- buy low, sell high.
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