Should the term "bitch" and related phrases be forbidden on DU?

[Skinner]

I think we need to come to some sort of consensus regarding the appropriateness of the term "bitch" on Democratic Underground. There seems to be a fair amount of disagreement on this issue, but I believe that it is possible to have a relatively civil discussion so that we can hopefully come to greater understanding of everyone's point of view. The question is:

On Democratic Underground, should we forbid the use of the term "bitch" to refer to women, and should we forbid related terms like "bitch slap?"

Please be aware that we are not going to forbid the use of the term "bitch" as a synonym for "complain bitterly," nor will we forbid the term "bitch" to mean "female dog." Those issues are not up for discussion. Also, to be clear... personal attacks against other members of Democratic Underground are not permitted, so it is already against the rules to call another member of DU a bitch.

To be more precise, the specific issues for discussion here are whether people should be permitted to use the term "bitch" when referring to high-profile political opponents, and whether members should be permitted to use the term "bitch slap" in almost any context.

I know that this is a highly-charged issue for many people, which is related to deeply-held progressive values including opposition to sexism, and support for free and open expression. However, we believe that it is possible to have this discussion without resorting to personal attacks and incivility, and we hope everyone will make an effort to participate in the spirit of mutual respect.

Please note that I changed the title of this thread about half an hour after I started it, which will have an impact on some of the responses. The original title said "permitted" rather than "forbidden" -- "Should the term "bitch" and related phrases be permitted on DU?".

[Goldmund]

1. I'll contribute a post I made in the other tread...

...shortly before it was locked (in response to a post saying "it's the same thing to say 'bitch' as is to use a racial epithet"):

Racial epithets don't offend me either. RacISM offends me. Though it may be true that racial epithets are most often, but not always, used in tandem with racism -- it isn't the words themselves that offend me, but the substance behind them. It isn't a certain sequence of syllables, but a certain sentiment. If the words are vehicles to express racism, then the racism is offensive; if not, then to call them offensive just because they are from your personal verbal hit-list is, I believe, not consistent with liberalism and free speech.

I actually think that the PC movement has set back the struggle for equality, not moved it forward. This whole idea that as long as we go through the motions and avoid certain phrases and certain mannerisms, we're in the clear, is ludicrous. All that does is push these things under the carpet where they are not as visible, but fester nevertheless. You know all those "BUT" people? "I'm not a racist/sexist/homophobe BUT..." (then insert: I'm not comfortable with homosexual or interracial marriages, I don't think women were made for certain jobs, etc). Well, they readily obey your verbal hygiene. Still they are offensive to me. And you know what else? Even though they're offensive to me, I would protect their right to hold those sentiments and freely express them. And then there will be a debate about them, as opposed to the endless status quo maintained by this PC aesthetic.

[democracyindanger]

127. Hear, hear.

Well said.

If people are offended by "bitch," then they should let the users of it know when the word appears. But banning the use of it would be more offensive than the word itself.

It seems there's been more complaining *about* the use of the word on DU than actual use of it. More bitching than actual "bitch"-ing.

Err on the side of free speech, Skinner.

[DemLikr]

150. You said it better than I ever could have, Slav. Now...

...does anyone want to comment on the original subject of my post that ignited this ridiculous teapot tempest? Namely, that John Dean was kicking GWB's ass this morning on the Diane Rheim show?

Note that I am using "ass" in a gender-neutral form to avoid controversey. Though some here may assume the ass in question is male as it refers to the posterior cheeks of George W. Bush, whom we will assume is indeed male, and thus renders said "ass" to be male.

However, please note also that there is nothing in my reference to the male ass that could also not be applied if it referred to a female ass, thus establishing this particular usage as gender-neutral and PC-approved.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

2. Only about Katherine Harris

;-)
Personally, I try not to use it, but it doesn't offend ME per se.

[ProfessorGAC]

3. You Need To Do, What You Need To Do Skinner

Personally, i think the opposition to the word is overbaked. I don't use the word, and especially wouldn't in the context of what i write here at DU, but i pick my fights at a higher level.

To me, choice of words is a detail, and not clearly indicative of a bigger issue.

But, if some people are that worked up about it, then, like i said in my title.
The Professor

[bif]

4. I think we should dump it

Just like we should dump the term "balls" as in, "he had the balls to do the job."

[BigMcLargehuge]

5. a synonym for "complain bitterly" is also one for

a person who complains bitterly, and in such is often applied on a gender neutral basis. I think the term should be allowed. Free speech means we protect that which offends us as well. I don't choose to use the term, but I wouldn't restrict someone else from using it.

That opinion and a buck fifty will get you one small coffee at Dunkin Donuts.

[Fenris]

11. I second that

[BigMcLargehuge]

27. thanks fenris

:)

[Fenris]

53. Well, it is an appropriate sentiment

Frankly, I don't like euphemistic language or attempts at censorship. I can't imagine saying, "Ann Coulter is such an uptight, bossy, complaining, and rude female." It's equivocation, because you know what word you're thinking of, but you can't use it. But it's what you mean.

Yes, bitch is gender specific. But so are bastard and prick. Gender specificity is present in insults whether some like it or not.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

I don't think we should be afraid of language.

For me, intent is more important than the word. The word is neutral, the intent is what defines it's meaning.
I went to college, you know. :D

[Fenris]

65. And it was in Scotland, so you should know a thing or two about cursing.

:D

[Screaming Lord Byron]

76. Fookin' right, ya radge basturt. Pure dead gallus, an edyoocayshun.

:D

[Fenris]

87. Like the singin' of the angels themselves.

:D:D

[BigMcLargehuge]

79. I lived in West Sussex for 18 months of college

thought not Scotland, it was an ear opening experience. The UK in general really has the market cornered on creative swearing. There is another word (beginning with a C) not printable here, that is bandied around the UK like "red" or "silly" or "suitcase" that just blew my mind.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

85. I guess when you've ruled half the globe, there's nowhere left to go

but obscenity.

[Fenris]

93. That's where I learned that C word

The English. Watching "The Filth & The Fury" and reading about punk in high school, I was surprised to find how offensive that word is to some people. I blame John Lydon for that. Warped my fragile little mind, the stupid c...

[Screaming Lord Byron]

102. And notice how it's a term of abuse towards men.

Much more so than against women. The definition has been suberted.

[Fenris]

114. Precisely.

Etymology and cultural history of the "C" word: http://matthewhunt.com/cunt.html

[Screaming Lord Byron]

124. Bloody hell that was enlightening.

Cheers, Fen.

[Fenris]

134. I thought you might enjoy that, Byron

Cheers.

[dolo amber]

23. Thirded

:)

[BigMcLargehuge]

30. and thanks Dolo

:)

[Gman]

6. I almost used "bitch" last night in a post

and purposely did not as I thought it would be offensive to someone although it was not intended as such. But I also knew that regardless of my intent, it was likely to be offensive so I didn't use it.

Accordingly, I don't think it should be used on DU. It will offend someone as it is, in general, demeaning to women.

[OKNancy]

50. Because you have good manners

PC isn't censorship, it's just good manners in my opinion.

[Dookus]

7. I'll jump in to start off this flame-war :)

Yes, I think it should be allowed. It's a commonly-used word in the culture, and is only a slight epithet.

Some say that it's bad because it's gender-specific. For all practical purposes, "asshole" and "bastard" are gender-specific, too. The terms, while technically non-gender specific, are only used against males.

Further, even one of the most vocal critics of the word here admits that she has two bumperstickers on her car referring to herself as a bitch.

"Bitchslap" does NOT mean, contrary to popular belief, to slap a woman. It means a slap GIVEN by a woman - generally an open-handed, across-the-face slap.

[cheezus]

yep. if a man slaps a woman it's a pimpslap

[gWbush is Mabus]

8. I don't like the term, but I am against censorship

I personally think it's weird that posts get deleted for using caps, swear words in title, and more than 4 paragraphs.


Maybe you could just email the author and ask them to change it.

[cheezus]

9. can we call things queer?

lots of people call stupid things "gay" or "queer".

what about calling stupid things "retarded"? is that offensive to the mentally hadicapped/families of?

Can you call someone a "bastard"? My friend the unwed mother would have problem with that.

And, oh man... if one more person calls me a "honkey"....


C'MON PEOPLE! Trust the users to regulate their own behavior. If they're bothing you that much, there's an ignore button for a reason.

um yeah. Don't be such a bitch about it :)

[bluestateguy]

10. I should be allowed to call Ann Coulter and Dr. Laura bitches

I do think the word should be allowed to refer to right wing people like Coulter and Dr. Laura. These women repudiated feminism anyway, why should they be treated with the respect that feminists fought to bring to women?

In fact, with regard to Coulter, I would up the ante and allow the four letter c-word to describe her.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. I'd rather leave them legal and take the user to task for their usage

depending on context. That's how conversations that can cause awareness occur.

I'm not fond of either term, but I don't support making common words illegal and off limits.

[mouse7]

No... the whole point is to stop these ridiculous flame wars

A decision has to be made one way or the other. Either the posts from people intolerant to words the dictionary the dictionary doesn't find offensive need to be deleted, or posts with the word need to be deleted.

These cultureal flame wars need to end.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. Says who? Isn't this a debate board?

You call it a cultural flame war, I call it an opportunity to have people THINK about what they are actually saying.

[mouse7]

84. Commonly used African-American slang is not debatable by whites

If African-Amercians wish to debate the use of slang in their community, they have the right. Whiets do not have the right to impose white standards on African-American culture and language.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

90. Yeah, like the n-w*ord.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

91. If I am white and you are black and we are speaking past one another

the best way I know to reach a consensus is to discuss it.

I know of NO African Americans so closed minded that they wouldn't try to reach an understanding with me.

Hiding behind a curtain of culture rather than dealing with meanings is simply a tool to dominate the conversation.

Heck, in parts of the US they say it's simply their "culture" to call African Americans slurs.

Should I simply accept that?

[mouse7]

135. No, I'm white, and I reject you imposing white culture

We both know how these "discussions" between the white community and the black community works. The white people say "Jump" and expect the African-American community to "discuss" the height requirement.

I grew up down South. I saw personally how that works from the white side and was repulsed by it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

143. Sorry your arguments are laughable....

You simply want to disrespect people and claim it's a cultural thing. I come from a family of Sicilian wife beaters...should we let them claim it's an Italian thing?

COP OUT

Should we let white bosses in the deep south walk into their offices and say,"How's my niggas today?"

[thebaghwan]

97. I agree the wars need to end. I do find the term Bitch Slap offensive but

would not support censorship. I would ask that the use of the term be voluntarily dropped by DUers. IMHO Bitch Slap refers to violence against women specically. I believe, but could be wrong that it has an origin in either hip hop or gansta music or both. Both genres are not exactly known for an enlightened attitude toward women.

It could have been put that Mr. Dean was smackin ther shit out of Bush. Let us resolve this issue and direct our energies to ridding this country of assholes like Bush.

[quinnox]

13. Most definitely

I don't see anything wrng with using bitch in language, and it is farcical to ban a common term like this one. Sometimes the left and political correctness goes too far in its aim to make everyone warm and fuzzy in their thoughts and words. Freedom of speech and thought is worth something. Now, there are some terms that are not acceptable such as the 'n' word. I add this for balance sake.

[Killarney]

14. To be honest

I'm a woman and I don't mind. I couldn't care less. I use the term bitch all the time, but only in reference to Ann Coulter and Karen Hughes. ;)

Now, if someone on DU called a fellow DU female a bitch, that's a different story. But to say "let's bitch-slap Bush" or something like that, I don't care.

[mouse7]

15. The word "bitch" as a female identifier is African American slang

The dictionary says it is not offensive. It's an evolution from rap music.

To attack it is white women imposing their culture and standards on the African-American community. Intolerance of African-American culture is back-door bigotry.

[kayell]

43. Nonsense, my very white father used the word for decades before

rap was ever heard of. It may be used by rap artists, but use of a derogatory term by a minority group does not make the word any less offensive.

That would be like my claiming that I can use the n-word because it is female slang, and that if you oppose my using the word, that you are sexist. :eyes:

[mouse7]

62. Because of rap music, it has evolved into a non-offensive term

The only use for the term "bitch" at one time was offensive. That's changed since it's common use in rap music. It has evolved a non-offensive use in African-American culture.

I don't need to point out that you, a white person, cannot judge what is appropriate and innappropriate for African-American culture.

[kayell]

82. As a woman, I can damn well point out what is offensive to me as a woman!

[mouse7]

98. White woman imposing white culture on African-Americans

That's all it is.

[kayell]

112. Asked any black women how fond they are of being called bitch?

I notice you are not female, yet you seem to feel yourself expert to talk about a term very offensive to many women.

Again, just because a minority group starts using an offensive word as slang doesn't make the term acceptable.

[mouse7]

119. Black woman rappers using the same slang in recordings

Are black woman rap artists self-hating and need white guidance now?

[indigo32]

131. Funny -- maybe she's to old school but I seem to remember

Queen Latifah objecting.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

138. Queen Latifah asked me to dedicate this song to you

U.N.I.T.Y. Lyrics
Artist(Band):Queen Latifah
(Print the Lyrics)
U.N.I.T.Y. Lyrics

Uh, U.N.I.T.Y., U.N.I.T.Y. that's a unity
U.N.I.T.Y., love a black man from infinity to infinity
(Who you calling a bitch?)
U.N.I.T.Y., U.N.I.T.Y. that's a unity (You gotta let him know)
(You go, come on here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., Love a black woman from (You got to let him know)
infinity to infinity (You ain't a bitch or a ho)
U.N.I.T.Y., U.N.I.T.Y. that's a unity (You gotta let him know)
(You go, come on here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., Love a black man from (You got to let him know)
infinity to infinity (You ain't a bitch or a ho)

Instinct leads me to another flow
Everytime I hear a brother call a girl a bitch or a ho
Trying to make a sister feel low
You know all of that gots to go
Now everybody knows there's exceptions to this rule
Now don't be getting mad, when we playing, it's cool
But don't you be calling out my name
I bring wrath to those who disrespect me like a dame
That's why I'm talking, one day I was walking down the block
I had my cutoff shorts on right cause it was crazy hot
I walked past these dudes when they passed me
One of 'em felt my booty, he was nasty
I turned around red, somebody was catching the wrath
Then the little one said (Yeah me bitch) and laughed
Since he was with his boys he tried to break fly
Huh, I punched him dead in his eye and said "Who you calling a bitch?"

(Here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., U.N.I.T.Y. that's a unity (You gotta let him know)
(You go, come on here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., Love a black woman from (You got to let him know)
infinity to infinity (You ain't a bitch or a ho)
(Here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., U.N.I.T.Y. that's a unity (You gotta let him know)
(You go, come on here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., Love a black man from (You got to let him know)
infinity to infinity (You ain't a bitch or a ho)

I hit the bottom, there ain't nowhere else to go but up
Bad days at work, give you an attitude then you were rough
And take it out on me but that's about enough
You put your hands on me again I'll put your ass in handcuffs
I guess I fell so deep in love I grew dependency
I was too blind to see just how it was affecting me
All I knew was you, you was all the man I had
And I was scared to let you go, even though you treated me bad
But I don't want my kids to see me getting beat down
By daddy smacking mommy all around
You say I'm nothing without ya, but I'm nothing with ya
A man don't really love you if he hits ya
This is my notice to the door, I'm not taking it no more
I'm not your personal whore, that's not what I'm here for
And nothing good gonna come to ya til you do right by me
Brother you wait and see (Who you calling a bitch?)

(Here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., U.N.I.T.Y. that's a unity (You gotta let him know)
(You go, come on here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., Love a black woman from (You got to let him know)
infinity to infinity (You ain't a bitch or a ho)
(Here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., U.N.I.T.Y. that's a unity (You gotta let him know)
(You go, come on here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., Love a black man from (You got to let him know)
infinity to infinity (You ain't a bitch or a ho)

What's going on in your mind is what I ask ya
But like Yo-Yo, you don't hear me though
You wear a rag around your head and you call yourself
a "Gangsta Bitch" now that you saw Apache's video
I saw you wilding, acting like a fool
I peeped you out the window jumping girls after school
But where did all of this come from?
A minute ago, you was a nerd and nobody ever heard of ya
Now you a wannabe... hard
You barely know your ABC's, please
There's plenty of people out there with triggers ready to pull it
Why you trying to jump in front of the bullet (Young lady)
Uh, and real bad girls are the silent type
Ain't none of this work getting your face sliced
Cause that's what happened to your homegirl, right? Bucking with nobody
She got to wear that for life (Who you calling a bitch?)

(Here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., U.N.I.T.Y. that's a unity (You gotta let him know)
(You go, come on here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., Love a black woman from (You got to let him know)
infinity to infinity (You ain't a bitch or a ho)
(Here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., U.N.I.T.Y. that's a unity (You gotta let him know)
(You go, come on here we go)
U.N.I.T.Y., Love a black man from (You must let him know)
infinity to infinity (You ain't a bitch or a ho)

[mouse7]

148. If a majoriity of black women rappers agree, then we'll talk

Until then, get busy finding all those lyrics.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

125. BALONEY!

Let me tell you something living in a mixed race neighborhood. If an AA man calls a woman his bitch in a rap song and everyone is kidding it gets a laugh.
If my black neighbor walks in the door and says..."where's my dinner, bitch?" he dines with skippy in the fucking DOG house.

[Ripley]

86. That is the biggest steaming pile of crap I've ever seen here.

First of all you are being incredibly illogical by stating that a white person can't judge what is appropriate for your culture. So if "your" culture want's to burn effigies of white people or hang white dolls from nooses, is that okey dokey? And we'll just not have an opinion. Yet I bet you have some really great judgements to make about whitey.

To say that "bitch" has evolved into a non-offensive use because of rap is insane. Rap is notorious for it's use of mysogynistic and offensive language. Just because you think it is cool, because all the rich rappers use it, and it's on TV, does not mean the rest of America thinks it is cool.

[mouse7]

111. White women stating black women incapable of determining sexism

I think African-American women are intelligent enough to determine what is approprate to call sexism in Afrcian-American culture.

African-Amercian women use the same slang words African-American men use in rap music. Are African-American women now supposedly self-hating or something and need white guidance?

[VelmaD]

94. Ask African-American women...

if they think it's ok...if they like to be called bitch. :eyes: Just because some rappers use that word like it's a synonym for woman doesn't mean it has become inoffensive.

[mouse7]

115. Black women think it's okay to use exact same slang in rap music

Are African-American women going to be claimed to be self-hating next?

There's plenty of strong women that are highly respected that use the exact same slang in rap music recordings.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

151. I actually think your posts are racist and ASSUME what ALL black people

want based on a few rappers.

Frankly your posts in this matter are no less offensive than claiming THEY ALL LOOK ALIKE.

[goclark]

142. B**** is not just used by/for African American Women

I just want to say that African Americans in general do not use B**** in their every day conversation. No more so then you would hear it on "Friends" or "Sex in the City." When upset or for emphasis, yes it will be used. I have found that word to be used in all cultures.

Rap does not reflect the every day conversation of the vast number of African American women or men that I interact with on a daily basis.

I must say that I have heard many, of all cultures, refer to Condi Rice as one. I am sure there are other words to describe her but that one comes to mind.

[gottaB]

95. Queen Latifah is a white woman?

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/queen-latifah/u-n-i-t-y.html

[kayell]

118. Great lyrics

I knew I'd heard something like that, but couldn't remember where. Thank you.

[supernova]

16. Well, I don't like that word, however

if we "outlaw" it here at DU, we would be missing an opportunity to talk about *why* it's not a healthy thing.

So, :shrug:

[southpaw]

17. Where will it end?

The terms bitch and bitch-slap, when used in an inappropriate way, are somewhat offensive, but I don't support the banning of any word or combination of words.

[7th_Sephiroth]

18. drop the word "bitch" as a derogatory

but keep the word bitch slap, and in its proper context (I.E. a female dog)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

19. only if someone namecalls another in the thread "bitch"

bitch can also have many other meanings ...like complain(i have a bitch about that)...and hard (that assignment was a bitch)....and cool(bitchin).

i do dislike the term "bitchslap" and when someone calls me a "bitch" i thank them (because it is an acronym for "babe in total control here")......please lets NOT go there?

[matcom]

20. NOPE

nor should:

bastard
asshole
prick
dick
etc...

on edit: SKINNER CHANGED THE TITLE x(

[mouse7]

47. Are you going to include cripple? Lame? brain-damaged?

I am disabled. Are you going to delete every word that could pertain to an insult against a disabled person?

Like, for example... crazy?

Now how many words are going to be deleted from DU?

[matcom]

117. sorry. i think Skinner changed the title

the original said should it be ALLOWED on DU - unless my eyes are shot

:shrug:

[napi21]

21. I;m female and I think there are certain women who deserve

to be termed "bi*ch. There have been times I've even referred to myself as being a bi*ch.

If actions fit the description, what's the problem?

[Goldmund]

29. I'm male

and I've referred to myself as being a bitch as well.

I don't mean to offend anyone... But this is beyond silly.

[Paragon]

22. I'm Rick James, bitch!

Completely allowable. And funny.

As with all language, it's with what context "bitch" is used. Calling any woman a "bitch" or a "whore" is not only offensive, it's unimaginative -- for instance, Ann Coulter is an elitist moron. Much better.

[BigMcLargehuge]

cocain is a helluva drug...

LOL

[Paragon]

55. Mmm mmm, bitch!

[IrateCitizen]

75. I'm ree-yotch, bee-yotch! (nt)

[Guaranteed]

24. It seems that people are trying to lump "bitch" in

with "nigger" and "faggot"- deliberately derogatory terms offensive to an entire group of people (even though "bitch" is used in many different ways, in reference to many different types of people).

Alright, then, but you've opened the floodgates.

"Idiot" would then fit into that category, because it could be offensive to stupid people (and, yes, some people know that they're stupid), or people with low IQs (which I believe is the definition of the term "idiot") and therefore should never be used, in any sense. Also "dumbass," "moron," "stupid" itself (as in "Stupid nail!"), etc.

"Motherfucker," could, of course, be offensive to mothers and those who have sex with their mothers. Scratch that one too for all usage.

"Bastard" is offensive to those without fathers. "Loser" is offensive to anybody who lost any kind of game or job, ever. "Greedy-ass old miser" is offensive to rich people and the elderly, "traitor" is offensive to those lacking in loyalty, and "chickenhawk" is offensive to those against the Iraq war. Cut them all out of your vocabulary.

***It does seem that the concept here is that negative connotations are not allowed in *descriptive* words (which sets these insults apart from words such as "nigger" and "faggot," which are simply derogatory to an entire demographic of people, stimulus aside- these terms put people down simply for being a MEMBER of that demographic) as long as there is anyone in that group of people that wouldn't want to be called that. That only leaves us with us such useful phrases as "You're bad," or "I don't like you"- phrases which refer to no group of people at all.***

But George W. Bush isn't just "bad." He's an idiotic, greedy-ass, old miserly chickenhawk motherfucker.

To anyone who's offended by that, I'm not referring to you.

[bearfartinthewoods]

116. sorry, but none of the examples you cite are gender specific.

in the way that bitch is.

[Guaranteed]

122. They're GROUP specific.

That's all that matters, right? What's so special about the gender category? We're trying to avoid offending groups of people, here.

[bearfartinthewoods]

137. because the rules mention sexism and racism specifically

[Mandate My Ass]

25. I find the term "bitch-slap"

rather offensive. It should be enough that many here find that offensive for its use to cease voluntarily.

There'll be no end to flamefests if it stays but I stop short of supporting an outright ban on the term.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

26. So now we're supposed to say "I'm Rick James _______" It's not the same...

:evilgrin:

[KoKo]

28. Bitch Slap and Douche Bag. About the worst two terms on DU. They sound

like something you scrawl as grafitti when you are 13 years old, to me.

There are plenty of alternatives to get the point across or think of something clever.

They just make a post sound immature to me. :eyes: I don't read them because of that, but that's just me.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

63. hey .....my parrot calls me a "douche" when i put her in her cage

:7

[DrWeird]

31. Hell yes.

Aslong as we keep asshole, bastard, and jerk.

[Carni]

32. Oh pullllleeeeezzzz....

Let's leave all the PC stuff to Michael Powell the Repukes and the FCC!

JMO but let's please all just "hit the ignore button" if something offends us - I am not trying to tell you how to run your site,
but if you ask me the abscence by and large of uptight people on DU is one of the main attractions to the site! :)

[Goldmund]

37. Amen

[ieoeja]

No

Saw "forbidden" as "permitted".

[DoctorMyEyes]

33. What about "dick"?

Personally I have no problem with the words "bitch", "dick" or the expressions about "having balls".

[notadmblnd]

34. Sticks and Stones may break my bones

but names will never hurt me.

I am genuinely complimented when someone calls me a bitch. It tell me I have power over that person. I mean if i can upset someone so much that they have to resort to name calling.. well just my 2cents.

[truthspeaker]

35. "bitch" to refer to all women: bad

"bitch" to refer to a particular woman: descriptive, profane insult that in my mind is completely acceptable in some situations.

To use the ever-popular example of a similar word: I don't use the word "nigger" myself, but I'm not going to get on Chuck D's case if he does use the word "nigger".

Wait, I just used it twice. Time to gouge my eyes out because obviously I'm a racist.

Words only have as much power as you give them.

[Serenity-NOW]

38. Wow did that get out of hand- sticks and stones kids

My two cents is that language cops and rules are the last thing we need, isn't this one of the things that bothers us about the FCC? I suspect the inflated ire at the use of the word bitch might have come from some other place. Just my two cents. I guess if it bugs people they should avoid threads that offend their delicate sensibilities.

Frankly as I get sodomized, language sanitized for your protection, by the current administration "bitch slap" doesn't even rate.

[adjwilli]

39. Censorship?

I think any form of censorship is entirely ridiculous, especially in the context of an liberal, internet discussion board.

We are all hear voluntarily. We all have the option to ignore the users we choose to. We are not parading our discussions are to the general public, but keep them within the confines of the board.

If someone has a problem with the word "bitch" being used in reference to people, especially females, then they have the right to discuss that. But, no one should have the right to limit what a person says, so long as they are here in the spirit of the board.

In which case, if someone takes using the word "bitch" too far, the moderators should deal with them. But that should be the case for anyone on the board taking any unpopular sentiment a bit too far. Regulation of specific terms should be though social chastisement, but only when that does work, should the moderators step in.

I mean, come on, we're all liberals here, not little bitches like Ashcroft. ;-)

[ConcernedCanuk]

40. Sure - as long as it is not directed explictly at a person

.
.
.

To start to remove words just for the word alone would move us towards a censored board.

Of course certain words like the "C" word should be barred.

Bitch-slap should be allowed, using that "word" in reference to people in this forum should not. I'm undecided on Condi et al tho . . .

If the word is used in an article, I don't think it should be edited out.

But I would have no problem agreeing to never use the "B" word in reference to those of the fairer sex.

I don't think we should be too restrictive though, but if it appears a flame is going to start, the message should be deleted or the thread locked.

oh - can we have and avatar or a smiley for the "B-slap" instead?

sorta like the :wtf:

I hadda ask - :evilgrin:

[LifeDuringWartime]

41. let it stay

you dont have to be a woman to be called a bitch. many men meet the requirements as well

[THUNDER HANDS]

42. those words don't offend me

But I harbor no lost love for them if they're removed. Like anything else with DU, I'll just roll with the changes...

:D

[GumboYaYa]

44. What about using the words "dick" or "bastard"?

Both of those have a sexist connotation to them.

While the words may be offensive, they are not so offensive to me that I would endorse restricting someone's right to express herself.

If you start limiting words people can use, where do you stop? I'm from the South and the word Redneck is offensive to me. Should we prohibit people from using that word? How many people have to be offended before we restrict the use of a word? If we are true to our principles, then one offended person should be enough. Personally, there are some letters that offend me as well. Can we prevent people from usng the letters "t" or "a"? It is possible that those could offend some people.

[VelmaD]

45. You know where I stand on this issue...

we've discussed in in the ATA forum on more than one occasion. If you're going to delete posts for using racial and ethnic slurs then I think you have to delete posts for gender epithets as well...otherwise you send an inconsistent message.

I'm going to be blunt...I'm really tired of men telling me that bitch isn't offensive. That would be the equivalent of me as a white person telling blacks that the "n" word isn't offensive. We've had several flamewars about this recently and the attitudes displayed by some of the allegedly "liberal" men around here were disturbing. I've been told I'm too sensitive. I've been called a repressed, puritanical, neo-con. I've been told I have sexuality issues. All as a means to denigrate me and my opinion on this topic by men who couldn't argue the point on it's merits but rather had to resort to name-calling.

I guess my real point is this...many of the women on this board would like just a little bit of consideration for our feelings from the men on DU. It doesn't seem like so much to ask. When we ask repeatedly for people to not use that word and when we explain repeatedly that we consider it an insult and people keep on using it...we can only assume they are being intentionally offensive and we react accordingly.

If you decide not to crack down on this particular sexist nonsense know this...we will continue to have flamewars over it because myself and many of the other women on DU are not going to let sexism slide. And for the men who use that word as if it was a synonym for woman...we will remember.

[IrateCitizen]

69. Then generate a list of what constitutes acceptable discourse

That way, we can be assured that we don't offend anybody in the process of our discussions here at DU.

Of course, after such a change, the discourse would undoubtedly be so bland that there wouldn't be much point in showing up, anyway. Unless, of course, you thrive on political correctness and the way in which it suppresses honesty and instead keeps our problems buried beneath the surface where we can't deal with them.

I fail to see how outlawing the word "bitch" will, in any way, stamp out misogyny. Just because we won't DISCUSS it anymore doesn't mean that it will be gone.

[VelmaD]

80. Look, it is just this simple...

you would not DREAM of calling Colin Powell the "n" word in a post even though he's on the other side. And the moderators wouldn't put up with it if you did. But several people in this thread have already thought it perfectly acceptable to call Condi Rice or Ann Coulter a bitch.

I'm tired of having thing same fucking fight over and over again. I'm tired of the attitude of so called "enlightened" men who don't listen to a goddamn thing women have to say on this subject because they don't like what we have to say.

If someone cannot express their disagreement with the oposition without resorting to name-calling...then they're an idiot.

[IrateCitizen]

106. You still didn't answer the question

You're advocating the censorship of a specific term, or specific terms. What I am saying is that since YOU are the one advocating this censorship in order to avoid offending others, then YOU should instead define, in precise terms, the acceptable parameters of discourse in order to avoid offending anyone in the process.

you would not DREAM of calling Colin Powell the "n" word in a post even though he's on the other side. And the moderators wouldn't put up with it if you did. But several people in this thread have already thought it perfectly acceptable to call Condi Rice or Ann Coulter a bitch.

You're right -- I would not call either Colin Powell OR Condi Rice a n*****. But I wouldn't hesitate to call Colin Powell a bastard for what he did in his speech to the UN. Is this the same? Why or why not?

I'm tired of having thing same fucking fight over and over again. I'm tired of the attitude of so called "enlightened" men who don't listen to a goddamn thing women have to say on this subject because they don't like what we have to say.

And I'm tired of those who advocate censorship under the name of "political correctness", thinking that problems will go away if they simply aren't allowed to boil to the surface anymore. Personally, I have no problem with allowing people to say what they want -- and I also have no problem with doing what I can to make them feel like a jackass if I find what they say to be ignorant or repugnant. In any case, at least my way might impress on them the ignorance of what they're saying -- as opposed to your way, which only sweeps the dirt under the rug, pretending it has disappeared.

So, once again, I ask you to outline what constitutes "acceptable discourse" and what should be censored. Don't give me any more of this Golden Rule crap. Last I checked, the Golden Rule was something that was done VOLUNTARY -- not forced on people whether they want it or not.

[VelmaD]

120. Skinner wouldn't even be considering...

forcing this on people if so many people on this board hadn't proved that they are unwilling to voluntarily be decent human beings.

When you get right down to it I'm not in favor of censorship myself. I'd rather have the opportunity to call someone on it when they express sexist views. It's just a little tiring to have to fight every single day against the undercurrent of sexism on this board. This is supposed to be a relatively safe place for liberals to come and talk to each other and that atmosphere is often ruined for women by the constant stream of sexist nonsense that doesn't get slapped down my the mods.

We have to fight every day against the oposition. We shouldn't have to fight against the men on "our side" too.

[wasichu]

46. all words should be banned

except it might be easier just to tell us what IS acceptable speech, otherwise we should just ban all words so that nobody is offended.

[HFishbine]

48. How about

letting us be adults? There are already rules against person attacks against other posters on DU which are sufficient. If you're going to start policing vocabulary to accommodate the sensitivities of some members, you won't be justified in stopping only with "bitch."

[snooper2]

49. Condi Rice is a Bitch...

that's okay, right :)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

51. Now, I'm liberal, but to a degree

I want everybody to be free. But if you think
doing away with certain supposedly offensive
words is the ticket, then what's next--nig*er?
fag*ot? k*ke? *unt?

[Paragon]

58. Thanks for censoring those.

:7

[Guaranteed]

71. I know.

I was almost offended.

[xultar]

52. I am a woman and I don't think Bitch is a negative term for a woman any

more than calling a man a Bitch. Cuz I call men Bitches also.

We can't become like the Right Wing!!!!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

54. Bitch should be allowed

It's the context that says everything. If someone is offended they should alert the Mods


Plus what else you gonna call Condi?

[IrateCitizen]

56. Cut all of the P.C. bullshit

Personally, I think this is another case of political correctness gone amok.

I don't use the term "bitch" very often in a derogatory sense, unless I'm extremely, extremely angry. But I do use it in joking around -- especially with my wife when we needle each other by calling each other names (we're funny that way).

For those who advocate that it be eliminated, perhaps we could approach this from a different direction and have you generate a list of things that CAN be said, so that we are assured that we don't offend anybody in the process.

Of course, the conversation will undoubtedly be much more subdued and bland in the process.

I gotta side with Ray Bradbury and Hal Holbrooke on this one -- I hate political correctness. It prevents us from being honest with each other, and keeps all our differences and problems lying below the surface where we can't address them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. Skinner, dear Skinner...live and learn

You let people vote on GD rules. The GD rules were shit canned. You had people vote on GD 04 rules, they caused hurt feelings and ill will and alerts on people for minor offenses, then the rules were shit canned.

While you MAY have had a number of complaints regarding these terms, you are putting it to a vote and however you enforce it will come back and bite you in the ass.

Rita Mae Brown said, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result."

I suggest that you and the mods consider the CONTEXT of a post and act accordingly.

Putting it to a vote will only come back to bite you in the ass. You can't please us ALL, you can make judgement calls when necessary.

[KoKo]

144. NSMA....how about forbidding it in a Subject line. Wouldn't that be a

compromise? Then those of us who don't like the words could just ignore the poster in the thread where it would be allowed. Since I already do that it wouldn't bother me. But seeing that stuff in a subject line is a turn off. Looks immature, as I said below. Who needs to post Subject with Dick Head, Douche Bag, Bitch Slap?

Sheesh..

Edited: for clarity

[Katarina]

59. My answers...

"On Democratic Underground, should we forbid the use of the term "bitch" to refer to women, and should we forbid related terms like "bitch slap?"

No and No. Those are my answers. I'm against censorship. I think there are a many words far worse and that is all I'm going to say on the matter. I said my bit on the other thread. This is so silly.

[camero]

60. It's all about context

When the term is referring to an individual then I would say it's a PA. But if the term is used in a general way I don't think it's a personal attack. Maybe a better idea would just be to ban vulgar words in general but it might look like Big Brother.

I could live without them.

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. 'bitch' should be allowed

as long as it's aimed at a specific person (as you say, not another DUer). As I just said, in another thread, it's no more offensive to women generally than 'jackass' is to men.

'Bitch slap' I'm not sure about (I never use it myself, but I'm not American). Rather than being a specific insult about someone, it does have more of a general connotation about women.

[trumad]

72. No

When folks use the word on DU, DU'ers who are offended by the way it's used usually let them know.... That should suffice.

[LeftwingPitbull]

64. So.

I can't call Ann Coulter a bitch?

[alcuno]

66. There are many more derogatory terms for women than for men.

C--t ( I really hate that word), whore, bitch, slut, tramp.....to name a few. These are words that have been historically used to demean women. There is a much more limited vocabulary when it comes specifically to men. You don't really have to wonder why that is.

I'm all for freedom of speech, but when we are already outnumbered I think that leveling the playing field is a good thing. In another word, yes. Ban it.

[mouse7]

73. Then ban all potentially offensive words

It would be unfair to ban just a few offensive words. Ban them all.

Banning all offensive terms would mean asking the disabled which medical terms need to be deleted from DU, since cripple was intentionally tossed at me and my disabled situation in life earlier today.

[Rowdyboy]

67. I don't typically call any women bitches, however, I frequently

refer to men as SOB's or sons of bitches. Would this too be incorrect?

When you start banning phrases that are part of the common vernacular you run into problems and, like it or not, it is a free speech issue.

Do what is needed but my vote would be no, do not ban the offending words/phrases.

[truebrit71]

68. No we should NOT. No need for the PC police here...

Obviously if someone is using it in a derogatory manner, or as an insult to someone then delete it...otherwise I say NO.

Frankly I am getting tired of the constant bitching and moaning about this word and it's uses and supposed offensiveness....

Words are words, it is the context and message that colour their tone and meaning....

People need to get over themselves and concentrate on the larger more important issues facing this country and the world..."bitch-slap" is somewhat minor when considering what is happening right now in Iraq...

[Plaid Adder]

70. Breaking with the feminist party line on this...

I say let people bitch it up one side and down the other.

It is not that I don't often get a kind of pain in my side when I see people bashing this or that conservative woman in what I feel are misogynistic ways. However, the term 'bitch' is not generally what sets this off. Here are some things you can see any day at DU that IMHO are much *more* of a problem from a gender politics standpoint than any use of the term 'bitch' in its proper context would be:

1) "Ann Coulter is a man."

You know what, she's not a man; she's just a really annoying woman. Now I sure as shit understand why she annoys people, but the fact is that as a lesbian it annoys the hell out of *me* to see people trying to deny a woman the right to be a woman just because they don't like what she's doing. Why does it annoy me? Because people on the right have been doing the exact same thing to lesbians--and to women who do not cower before their awesome patriarchal power--for many, many years. It was a bullshit tactic then and it's a bullshit tactic now. Being a woman has got nothing to do with being nice, and not being a doormat does not make you a man. Being a psychotic right-wing lunatic does not necessarily make you a man either (Hannity and O'Reilly take note).

2) "Condi Rice needs to get laid" and related comments.

Again, I fully understand the need to bash Condoleeza Rice, but to use her status as a woman to do that pisses me off. You know what, Ashcroft could use a good lay too. I realize that Boondocks started this whole thing, but it has spawned a whole genre of Condi-bashing based on this idea that she's either a frigid spinster, a repressed lesbian, or Bush's bitch (as it were). My view of Condi is that her problem is that she's a coldhearted ruthless liar who will say or do anything to advance her own interests or cover her own ass. Whether she's gettin' some is entirely beside the point, and it only comes up because once again this is one of the traditional ways that the right has attacked powerful women: oh, if they could only just get some good lovin' at home they wouldn't be so crazy and messed-up and wanting to have careers and the vote and suchlike things.

3) Any and all of the crypto-sex threads sprouting up all over the lounge on any day of the week.

Now I recognize that there are good reasons not to actually try to police any of this stuff, including the fact that not everyone would agree with me about all this. BUT, for that same reason, I feel it would be a mistake to ban the use of the term 'bitch,' because I do think it serves a descriptive purpose. Gender differences are real, even if they are socially constructed, and being a bitch is not exactly the same thing as being an asshole. And I reserve the right to call a bitch a bitch, if and when it should ever become necessary.

'Bitch-slap,' IMHO, is more problematic because of course it starts going down that road where hitting women is funny, which is something I don't take kindly to. But that si a whole nother story.

Sorry it's long, but you asked,

The Plaid Adder

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. One more caveat on the " Condi needs to get laid stuff"

is not just the point you were making but that the thread usually devolves into posts which border on advocating violence against women or rape..it NEVER fails.

Again, in these cases, I'd just as soon let the mods and admin decide using their judgement and lock it.

They usually recognize it when they see it.

[Plaid Adder]

96. Yeah, that is where the whole line is headed...

...from the basic idea that sex is what women 'need,' comes the idea that you can force it on women who say they don't want it (cause whether they want it or not, they NEED it! How else are they going to be normal?). Which is foul in any context, even when you're talking about Condileeza Rice.

Ah well,

The Plaid Adder

[Dookus]

89. But

bitch-slap does NOT mean to slap a bitch. It means to slap LIKE a bitch. In other words, it's about a woman doing the hitting, not a man.

[ieoeja]

99. As easy as A-B-C

1) "Ann Coulter is a man."

A) I always disliked this one myself. It seems to imply that women must look and act a certain way.


2) "Condi Rice needs to get laid" and related comments.

B) So I should throw away my "Bush Needs A Blowjob" hat? When someone is acting uptight or angry, "sex" is the common (partially) humorous prescription be that individual male or female. I don't see how you can even remotely see this remark as sexist.


3) Any and all of the crypto-sex threads sprouting up all over the lounge on any day of the week.

C) You mean like this thread? Agreed. I generally avoid posting on them.

[indigo32]

103. I'd like to second the major ideas in this post

I found at the very least 1 and 2 to be FAR more problematic. 3... depends on the thread.

[maddezmom]

74. don't think it should be banned

but then again, I'm not easily offended on an anonymous message board.

[kayell]

77. The general feeling here seems to be for keeping bitch in the DU

vocabulary. Presumably those same people like the words nigger, kike, wop, spick, wetback, chink, mick, gook, dyke, fag, greaser and honkie also. I'm sure that the phrase "what a pair of balls" as a term of admiration never strikes them as sexist either.

What a sad condition this board has come to.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

100. The word nigger only exists in one context.

The word bitch exists in several. I think that's an important distinction. Bitch can be a derogatory term for women, or it can be a term for complaining, among other things. Why not subvert the meaning of these words by using them? Don't be afraid of words, that can only give them more power than they already have. Use the word and change it's meaning.

[Rowdyboy]

104. Obviously we are all a bunch of homophobic, sexist racists

except for those few who agree with your view.

[JohnLocke]

105. A few thoughts.

Terms such as "nigger," "kike," "wop," "spick," "wetback," "chink," "mick," "gook," etc. are applied in a derogatory manner toward members of a population (Jews, homosexuals, Asians, Hispanics, etc.) because they are members of that population. An example of this is the word 'nigger' -- a term used in connection with an immutable characteristic in a single context.

In contrast, words like "bitch" are applied on a gender-neutral basis, because of one's behavior. Hence, Sean Hannity could be an "ultraconservative bitch." Call me crazy, but I believe I should be able to call him that without being considered a bigot who refers to blacks as 'niggers,' ethnic Chinese as 'chinks,' homosexuals as 'fags.'

Blanket bans on certain words are foolish. I say allow the moderators to judge the appropriateness of a word on a case-by case basis.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

78. If we all agree to curtail some words..

what then would be acceptable? I don't like the term "redneck", as it is often presented in a classist framework. However, I will support someone's right to say "redneck" as protected speech when folks bandy it around on the boards. And while I agree the terms "bitch", when referring to a female, and "cock" or "dick" when referring to a male falls under the strict definition of sexist hate-speech, where do you draw the line?

[tom_paine]

83. If enough people want it, I suppose so

but you could call my support for this halfhearted at best.

If African-Americans can rightfully ask that (RACIAL EPITHET REDACTED) be banned, then I suppose this could be done based on the same logic.

But we are getting close to the "frivolous lawsuit" level of offensensitivity.

Go ahead and do it, if you will skinner. But many of us won't like it.

[Arkana]

88. Aw, come on, Skinner

What if the political opponent should not, technically, be classified as "human?"

If you ban the word, Freepers will just crow over the fact that the "admin at DU is censoring his OWN posters!" (Even though we'll know that's not the case).

[Desertrose]

92. I say let it stand...I don't use it, but how could you ever police this?

Is it possible to stop the use or police it for the *correct* or *legal* use??

I think its gotta be a black & white or an all or nothing deal...let it be used or completely ban it....but if you do, then what word is next??


I really feel it is up to the individuals to deal with this...you are NOT our nannies after all....right?

Maybe locking any flame wars from it immediately ....??

Tough job guys...good luck!
:toast:

DR

[VelmaD]

101. Reading the responses I am disheartened...

by the number of people who seem to think that just because bitch is a commonly used term...that makes it ok. Yes, it has become more commonly used...too commonly used as far as I'm concerned. When did it become ok in liberal circles to be intentionally offensive? When did we become so opposed to the idea of wording our thoughts in a way that avoids offending someone?

Maybe it's because yelling "Ann Coulter is a bitch" requires no thought.

[mellowinman]

107. Just quickly...

I agree that using derogatory gender or racial terms is bad.

I also feel debating it here on DU is a waste of your time.

Check out my thread, which is almost guaranteed to make me popular. (not)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1354919

Sorry. Just to save time, yes I'm a jerk.

[DinahMoeHum]

108. Let's not lose ourselves in PC discourse/semantics. . .

Leave this shit to the linguists/semanticists.

It's a lot like a certain racial epithet spoken now under the breath by whites, and used more often in "gangsta rap".
The hell with this.
Either they are OK for EVERYBODY to say them,
or
they are NOT OK for ANYBODY to say them.

Now let's get back to kicking Repuke/Fascist ass.

:kick:

[librechik]

109. of course not, and people should still be allowed to complain

about language used by a poster--I prefer a direct and gentle assertion within the thread that I find the language offensive. I don't ask that the word be removed, but I do express my opinion. If it's really over the top, I just alert. "Bitch" is too much a part of the vernacular to ban entirely. And since men can be bitches too, I don't think of it as demeaning to a specific gender, just a specific type of person.

But I gotta say "bitch" rarely offends me and I use it myself. It can be used appropriately as well as inappropriately. For example, Karen Hughes is definitely a bitch, and so is Bar Bush. But I don't think Condi is; she's just a captive female trying to survive, and I've never heard her complain about her position. Same as Laura, I would find calling Laura a bitch inaccurate, though not offensive. Calling Hillary a bitch merely because she exists is offensive and inaccurate. A bitch would have divorced Bill with a big noise during the re-election phase. I would have done that, because I can be a real bitch. Hillary is too nice and sensible to even think of doing that I'm sure.

I hope an advisory is enough, Skinner--I hate to see censorship ruin the freedom loving atmosphere of this forum.

[Ysabel]

110. i don't want censorship...

definitely not...

period.

-----------------

i do have more thoughts on the use of these words - but at this particular moment - i'm just tired of this...

--------------------------------------------------------

edited - for a slight bit more clarity...

[rene moon]

113. NO!!!!!!!!!!!

I am opposed to any censorship, especially on a forum such as DU.

[matcom]

121. Hey SKINNER! Did the original title ask if it should be ALLOWED?

i am totally confused (not the first time)

half of this thread is now misleading IMHO (unless i was wrong)

[Skinner]

136. I changed the title. Sorry about that.

I screwed up, and had asked the question in two different ways. So I felt that I needed to pick one or the other for consistency.

Also, I felt it was more appropriate to ask if it should be forbidden, because currently the term is permitted.

[matcom]

140. so i'm NOT nuts! just keep it in mind that about the first 30 or so

were responding to the original thread title

thanks

[Bread and Circus]

123. No, I don't think so as a general rule.

We don't need word police on DU. Each instance
should be dealt with on a case by case basis. A blanket
policy seems too severe. We're all big kids, we can take it.

[TNOE]

126. What Have We Become....

I'm truly shocked you even had to ask this. I notice the three main players on the locked thread who were the most "outraged" over it have not responded here.

Are we truly now in the world of Cheney's "watch what you say" - and Bush's* don't you dare speak bad about me mindset? Screw it, screw them. As I said on the other thread, I am a woman and I CANNOT be offended by words. To me it shows weakness and I'm most definitely not a weak willed, weak minded or weak anything woman. I can think for myself, stand up for myself and defend myself and my beliefs. We have got to be careful IMO to NOT go down this road. Say what you think and think what you say - within reasonable limits of course.

I'm shocked frankly at this. Remember the movies from the 50's where women fainted when they were pregnant or saw something scary? Now women work their asses off while their pregnant and see horror flicks with the guys, play sports, etc. This is taking women back a long way in my opinion. We are either equal and tough enough to take it or we're NOT equal.

[WillyT]

128. If Catwoman Uses The Term 'Bitch', That's Good Enough For Me, LOL !!!

Seriously man...

You take that term away from Cat, there's gonna be hell to pay around here!!!

:hi::evilgrin::hi:

[Blasphemer]

129. No, they should not be forbidden

To me, it's all about context. When Karen Hughes or Condoleezza Rice are called bitches it's because their words and actions are found to be offensive and so an offensive term is used to impugn them. "Bitch-slap" to me is no different than "Give a Beatdown". It's not literal, so it's not a big deal to me. If a guy in the street called me a "hot b____", I would be offended and consider it sexist and derogatory. A similar situation with the N word. I am black and have lived in San Francisco where I heard Filipino kids calling each other the N word. In the context they were using it, it was clearly not intended to be offensive and was used, as it is sometimes/often used in the black community amongst friends. It didn't offend me in the least. If one of those kids had called me a stupid N, obviously I would have been offended. Obviously if one poster calls another poster a B____, that's intended to offend and can't be tolerated. I tend not to use these words and I do understand the position of those who are offended. I find the Karen Hughes moniker "Karen Huge" to be somewhat offensive but personally, it's not something I would make an issue of. People are sometimes going to say things that bother me and I'm pretty sensitive about free speech so for me, that trumps anything that might bother me. I will also say that this is a great board and thus far I haven't found anything truly outrageous in terms of offensive language.

[ibegurpard]

130. It all depends on context for me

the term "bitch" to describe an unpleasant person of the female gender doesn't bother me; I find it kind of a generic perjorative like calling an unpleasant man a "dick"... however using it in the context of someone being someone else's "bitch" bothers me a great deal. I'm also very uncomfortable with the term "bitch-slap" ... it connotes violence to me.

[pagerbear]

132. My two cents

I'm not sure I'd advocate forbidding the use of any word. Yes, people are offended by the use of the word bitch, in the same way I was offended by the use of the word cocksucker in another thread this morning to describe a man whose actions had hurt the poster. He called his boss a cocksucker. Someone else on DU calls a prominent woman a bitch. The point I tried to make in that thread was how repellant it is to me when traits unrelated to offensive actions are used to criticize someone. I wonder how far any of us would get if we chose epithets based on other unrelated traits, such as race or ethnicity?

What I find even more offensive is the suggestion that a prominent woman is not feminine enough or a prominent man is not manly enough (enough for what?--I suspect most DUers would leap to the defense of a friend about whom such things were said) because we don't like the actions of that woman or man.

How about if we all promise to focus on what people do--I'm quite sure there's enough to talk about there!

[jeanmarc]

133. Not forbidden, shouldn't be forbidden

[PfcHammer]

139. this thread is shot like the other one. naptime children n/t

[nini]

141. NO

it's use is intended to be an insult to the party being referred to at the time NOT all women.

There are lots of words based on males such as bastard, prick etc.. doesn't mean the target they are used on are meant for all men.


I'm sorry it is offensive to some, but if we start forbidding the use of any word we may as well let the FCC tell us what we can and cannot say here.

[northzax]

145. ban them. really. (parental advisory, explicit lyrics)

<caveat: Skinner, this is not directed at you, but at the community as a whole, please don't take insult>

if there are people on this board who cannot either defend themselves, hit the ignore button or move on then we need to police it. sorry, kids, but that's the way it is.

People say that words can't hurt them, but that is, to be quite honest, bullshit. Every adult with some sense of history and culture has a word that describes them in a pejorative context. Many of them seemingly quite innocuous, unless you know the history and the biases behind the term. For instance, I am a straight WASP. I'm about as WASPy as you can get, and I take serious offense to the term, since it is utterly classist and based on religious bigotry (the term was coined to denote the difference between those of Anglo-Saxon descent and Irish and Italian Catholics in the early 1900s.) Straight is also a pejorative term, when you think about it, since it implies that those people I love, including close family members) who are not "straight" are somehow "crooked" Quite frankly, I've fucked up huge portions of my life, and you're telling my that I'm 'straight' amid my happy successful gay friends aren't? what the fuck's up with that? You're telling me that Charles Manson is "straight" and my uncle who's dedicated his life to unionizing isn't? that is wrong. But you don't see me hitting the alert button every time someone uses one of these offensive words. deal with it.

any other words we can get rid off? sure, tons of them, and 'bitch' is just the start (don't tell me we can say someone is 'bitching' since that implies they are acting like a complaining female, that's not right.

Please people, hit the damn ignore button. Some people use words like "bitch" in the same way I use words like "fuck" to cover for my own inadequacy at expressing in 'polite' words the expression I am looking for. It's cheap language, and shows a distinct lack of education and linguistic ability. People use foul language to emphasize something that they feel they couldn't otherwise bring emphasis to. It's an attention attractor. But it is overused, and the more people overuse it, the more banal such language becomes.

An example: George Carlin refers to someone as a "son of a cocksucking whore" and no one pays attention, why? He's been doing it for so long, and to so many people, that he can't grab attention with that language anymore. Bill Cosby refers to someone as a "bitch" and it grabs your attention, not because the word is worse, obviously I'd rather say "bitch" in from of my grandmother and "cocksucking whore" but because we are not used to hearing him use that language. He hasn't cheapened the emotion and connotation of that word by using it in connection with everything from a screwdriver to a woolly mammoth.

Common insults are cheap and overused. They are for the lazy (myself included, of course) and they're power decreases with every time they are used cheaply. Deflation of word power by those in the common discourse has led to increasing coarseness of language, we are racing to the lowest common denominator as the distinctions between spoken and written language get more and more blurred.

Basically, this is a plea for sanity. try not to be so lazy in your descriptions of others, "bitch" really is boring and exceedingly commonplace. The 35th time you use it, we stop listening to anything but your inability to say something that doesn't offend another person on this board, save it for when it really matters, and show some (pardon me) fucking creativity for once. Your point will be better taken, and this board will be infinitely more interesting to read.

And those who see marginally offensive words, don't post another complaint about the use, be a little creative in your replies, replying to "bitch" with "dickhead" is both counterproductive and lowers your discourse to the height of the person you are complaining about. If your best response to "bitch" is"dickwad" you might want to consider picking up a thesaurus.

[patriotvoice]

146. No: Men are "bastards" and women are "bitches"

However, one should endeavour to use more precise words anyway, rather than such emotive blurts.

[HootieMcBoob]

147. I vote no.

I don't like the idea of words being prohibited. OK, maybe it's a good idea to say no cursing in the subject line and there should be no abusive language toward members but I have to register a strong no to forbiding the term "bitch".

[Skinner]

149. Continue discussion in Thread #2

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1355081&mesg_id=1355081

I'm locking.