66% say YES to raid Holy site ! CNN poll

[ConcernedCanuk]

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Should the U.S. raid a holy site to arrest Iraqi cleric Moqtada al-Sadr?

Yes
66%
55791 votes


No
34%
28780 votes

Total: 84571 votes

So, we are down to "it's ok" to bomb holy sites now?

Gawwwwwwwd!

VOTE

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. If the poll said raid

Then you are misrepresenting it and turning it into "bomb."

[ConcernedCanuk]

3. not misrepenting anything

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It's not a statement.

?

should indicate that it is a Question, no?

And I DO think that a raid can include bombs.

Now THAT is a statement.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. The two are typically quite different

Raiding usually involves troops in this context.

Yes, a raid can include a bomb. Saying you agree with a raid does not necessarily imply you would agree to bombing.

Language is a wonderfully complex thing.

[cosmicdot]

31. "language is a wonderfully complex thing" ... and, actions speak louder

than words ...

"We just blew up a mosque and killed 40 people."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1361531

[shadu]

7. WTF are you talking about?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. there is the issue of 'SANCTUARY'

any civilized human being should recognize that fact. After all- most right wing morons like to talk about the sanctity of life, the womb, etc....

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. Bull crap

If you are leading an insurrection or are just a common murderer, there should be no sanctuary.

[GOPisEvil]

37. Sanctuary is a long-held tenet of US law.

But, being that we're in Iraq, all bets are off I guess.

Does it make logical sense to you to raid a mosque in a Muslim nation where the locals are already in revolt? Can that be productive? Is that going to do anything but inflame the situation further?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrSlayer]

2. Well they are obviously only hiding there because it's a "holy" place.

It's ok for him to direct attacks from there but it's not ok to attack him there? Nonsense. That would be like me holding a kid in front of me while I shoot at you and cry foul when you shoot back.

[shadu]

10. Irrelevant

Time to leave these people alone

[DenverDem]

11. It's not al-Sadr's fault Iraqis want to kill us.

We need to get to the root of the problem by getting our imperialistic, civillian killing asses our of their country.

They hate us for our freedom (from guilt over collaterally damaging tens of thousands of their countrymen.)

[ConcernedCanuk]

12. Actually "mosques" aren't "holy places" in themselves

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Yes, that's where a lot of holy gatherings are held.

Many other large, non-religious gatherings are held in mosques.

Mosques, actually just means "meeting place"

But then, most of us westerners don't know that.

But as to where he SHOULD gather with his people,

I have no idea whether or not other large buildings and facilities are available, so I cannout vouch or decide on his "motives".

[KansDem]

39. Point taken...

Thanks for the clarification. However, I doubt if "Joe 'Westerner' Sixpack," sitting at home watching TV is going to say after seeing this report, "Well, after all, "mosque" means "meeting place," and is not really a holy place in the sense the sanctuary of a cathedral or temple is a "holy place." Therefore, to perform a military action in a mosque is not the same as if we blew up a "holy place."

I'm more inclined to believe Mr. Sixpack is going to see "Christians kicking Muslim butt."

[historian]

23. he wants his country back

thats all - we would do the same.

[arcane1]

4. they really latched on to this boogeyman, didn't they?

Maybe they will catch him, broadcast either his corpse or his lice-check, and claim victory again?

meanwhile, the attacks will continue...

[cureautismnow]

5. Add the following after "...al-Sadr...?"

... and would YOU PERSONALLY participate in such a raid?

See if the YES numbers decline a bit.:eyes:

[RobertSeattle]

6. CNN should do a reverse DNS on all the yes votes

And send them http://www.dior.whs.mil/forms/DD0004.PDF and JOIN UP!

Bunch of "Internet Arm Chair Generals"

[chrisdfer]

28. Yeah well...

You don't even know the technical details behind DNS you wanna tech geek. You will never be as l337 as me.

[Mari333]

8. If their kids were there they wouldnt say Yes. what ignorant Mofos.

[prolesunited]

9. Don't be so surprised

What you're apparently not getting is that this is NOT a Christian holy site, so it doesn't actually qualify as a sacred place.

Perhaps the question asked about raiding a church, you would get a different response.

[saracat]

17. Bravo!

You nailed 'em! Another example of our arrogance. And we wonder why they don't like us!

[LeahMira]

20. Darn right!

What you're apparently not getting is that this is NOT a Christian holy site, so it doesn't actually qualify as a sacred place.

If he were holed up in the "Crystal Cathedral" or St. Patrick's in NYC, he'd be plenty safe! Heck, if he managed to get to Disneyland his person could relax!

:evilgrin:

[pinto]

14. I heard Sadr has left mosque and is established elsewhere in Najaf?

Said decision was to protect the site in case of a raid,

which, imho, will definitely happen, wherever he is. Bremmer's made that clear.

Sadr has mentioned negotiation, but his demand is removal of troops from all populated areas and release of prisoners, which we will most likely ignore.

I hope someone in our military command follows up on the lead to at least establish a stand off and buy some time.

I'll look for the reference to Sadr's whereabouts.

[ConcernedCanuk]

16. He's in KUFA, about 100 miles South of Baghdad, Fallujah is West

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Radical sheikh throws down gauntlet

By Jeffrey Gettleman
Kufa, Iraq

April 7, 2004

The Grand Mosque of Kufa has now become the grand arsenal.

As US authorities issued an arrest warrant for Muqtada al-Sadr, the radical Shiite cleric who set off the most serious insurrection so far against the occupation forces, hundreds of his supporters were busy fortifying the mosque, bracing for a US invasion.

Sheikh Sadr has barricaded himself inside the golden brick walls, refusing to surrender. Members of his militia prowl the streets, staring down the sights of machine-guns, building fighting positions in and around the mosque, the town's biggest, and pointing rocket-propelled grenades at the highway heading north - the road they expect to see US forces come rumbling down.

/snip/

Kufa, 160 kilometres south of Baghdad with a population of 110,000, is the first Iraqi city to spin entirely out of occupation control. The town is a stronghold of conservative Shiite beliefs.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/06/1081222467488.html

[pinto]

21. my err, see later pinto post. Thanks,p

[ikojo]

15. It's not a CHRISTIAN site so it's

not really holy in the first place.


/sarcasm off...

[pinto]

18. Al-Sadr leaves mosque in Kufa (boston.com article)

By Hamza Hendawi, Associated Press, 4/6/2004 06:08

KUFA, Iraq (AP) A radical Shiite cleric sought by U.S. forces said Tuesday he left the fortress-like mosque where he has been holed up for days, surrounded by armed supporters. Muqtada al-Sadr, in a statement released by his office, did not say where he had gone.

<snip>

Since Sunday, al-Sadr was in the main mosque in the city of Kufa, south of Baghdad, with dozens of militiamen outside vowing to resist any U.S. attempt to arrest him. But in a statement released by his office in the nearby city of Najaf, al-Sadr said he had left the mosque, fearing it would be damaged in an assault.


http://www.boston.com/dailynews/097/world/Al_Sadr_leaves_mosque_in_Kufa_:.shtml

[ROC]

19. If it is being used as a military base,

and certainly if we take fire from the mosque, it should be raided. US forces have been attacked by forces from Iraqi mosques before.

[teryang]

22. Legally you are correct

The real question is whether it is practical to do so in view of the religious events coming up.

In conflict theory one should divorce themselves from the emotions and consider whether it would be of benefit to desist. I think that there is more to be gained from restraint in a situation like this. The desire to prevail on a such a short timetable evinces weakness not determination. It also shows that we are unsophisticated politically.

The leadership of our country and Bremer are in the brute force mode. The lower you get in the command the more sense is displayed. These idiots have no idea how to manage conflict. They let war criminals and murderers rule as warlords in Afghanistan because it is practical to do so. What's the difference here? The administration is deluded in thinking that they have the upper hand. Just because the body count is numerically favorable doesn't mean that the outcome is going to be the one we dictate.

[LeahMira]

27. Holy places as sites of refuge...

certainly if we take fire from the mosque, it should be raided

Churches, synagogues, mosques, and other places of worship are also recognized as places of refuge where anyone can go for safety.

Seems that I remember when someone holed up in a holy site in Bethlehem, the Israelis basically cut off supplies to them until they eventually gave out. Our troops could do something similar... IF we respect their holy places as we would like others to respect ours.

As someone has already mentioned that he left the site, apparently he doesn't have much confidence in American's respect for holy places.

[Bridget Burke]

33. How many churches will be bombed in retaliation?

They'll be full this Sunday.

[mmonk]

25. He's got to come out sometime

A raid would end up being counter-productive. Surround the area and wait him out.

[RebelOne]

29. Voted. Damn, still at 34% no,.

[ConcernedCanuk]

30. Well, I' guess it's all in the timing, and of course the "spin"

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The numbers wouldn't read ANYTHING like that if the poll had been done before the mutilations, WHICH, by the way were NOT done by the shooters or with anyone's blessings.

The mutilations were done by others in the area.

One has to remember that EXACTLY one year previous, the US opened fire on protesters at a SCHOOL in Fallujah, killing 13 and wounding 75.

Who knows how many of those 75 died later? I'm sure there's no American's keeping track of that

The killings are one thing, the mutilations another, fueled by previous killings by the US.

The US has killed more now, so the circle of revenge get's larger and wider.

We in the west can "logic" this to death, won't matter.

THEIR friends, THEIR family were killed and wounded in THEIR country by INVADERS.

Won't stop until the invaders leave.

(sigh)

[kentuck]

32. A fucking poll! Well, I guess that settles it....

A poll to validate every criminal act.

[Heyo]

34. I voted yes....

They use holy sites to hide in so we either a) wont go after then, or b) we will, and everyone will cry about it later.... using their own holy places as sheilds, shamefull, but I'll bet they're doing plenty of shooting FROM the place...

I say we call their bluff...

Flame if you want.

Heyo

[G_j]

35. great!

let's just alienate more Iraqis. Lets just pour gasoline on the fire and guarantee more violence against US soldiers, more deaths and more collateral damage.

How about sending some diplomats and peacemakers to actually speak with these people?
Wow, what a radical fringe idea: attempt to avoid further violence and death! :think:

[Heyo]

38. How come...

Everytime they kill us... nobody says that?

Great.. kill our soldiers... wrap your kids in explosives and send them into cafes, intentionally massacre civillians, crying "Jihad, Jihad, Allah Akbar"...

Then when the tanks come, cry for civility and negotiation!

Bullcrap.

Heyo

[G_j]

40. FYI

if you want to discuss the situation in Israel there is a separate forum for that.

[Heyo]

41. I was more referring to....

An overall mentallity that exists in both situations...

Heyo

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Heyo]

46. Presumptive bigotry?

Oh my, that's rich!

Hehehehe

Keep up the good work!

:D

Heyo

[Kathy in Cambridge]

47. Why are you here?

The ability to grasp basic concepts of history is helpful when you argue US foreign policy. You don't win hearts and minds by killing 40 civilians while they're worshipping at their version of Church. How would you feel if terrorists blew up your fundamentalist Christian Church and killed 40 innocents?

[Heyo]

48. They're not worshiping...

They're holed up inside shooting weapons out of it.

Why would we bomb a mosque where people are worshiping?

Heyo

[PATRICK]

42. Slow down and think

before you jump on another Bush war wagon. A clumsy hamhanded approach with evil and mixed motivations created this situation in the first place. Mosques, using civilians as human shields, using massively deadly armament to limit our casualties- these all in the heat of a contest can enlist our emotions on the side of the misused and misled US soldiers- benefiting no one except to make us complicit in lunacy and death.

Between impotent caution and bullish stomping there may be no winnable solution anyway. Are we at war with the people of Iraq? Let's be honest about our new subjects and say yes. Should we show them the conqueror's boot and wage total war on "insurgents"? The evil of this survey draws YOU into the quagmire. This is the common sense and morality of burglars defending themselves.

You are voting madness in a fiasco. Voting to create a thousand Islamic enemies worldwide for every Sadr follower put down. And you won't even scratch breaking Sadr's own group at all. He hardly has to try gaming his battle into a unified insurgency. WE are doing it all for him. Making Macbeth-like brave and tactical decisions only makes us more blood soaked when the inevitable- and it is inevitable-loss for PNAC Bushco hegemony folds in like a burning moth.

Bush has decided to destroy the mosque. Your opinion, God's or anyone else's matters not a damn. Yet.

[Raenelle]

45. They clearly value venting over success, then.