So. "They" said the average tax refund would be up 25% and it's up 5%.

[alcuno]

And now all those tax-cutters are baffled. I don't know about you, but my federal taxes are up 1.5% with a minimal increase in income. In my case it's the reduction in my mortgage interest. Where's the news about this? Where's the Kerry ad blasting the *? A 5% increase on a tax refund of $2000 is $100. Is a 500 billion dollar deficit worth 100 bucks?

[greatauntoftriplets]

1. Hey! I made out like a bandit.

Got $35 more than last year back.

<turning sarcasm off>

[Journeyman]

4. Wow! How many jobs are you going to create?. . .

Shrub's counting on you, ya know?

[greatauntoftriplets]

8. Guess I could patronize a few lemonade stands this summer....

:shrug:

[davekriss]

14. The promise was about 1 per $500,000 deficit increment

I don't have the numbers fresh in front of me, but I recall that while the tax cut was debated it looked like we'd get one new job for every $500,000 in additional deficit. It was the equivalent of walking up to a rich guy saying, here, bub, I'll give you a half-a-million dollars if you promise to hire a poor sop to trim your hedges for the next 25 years. Who would say no to such a deal? (That is, other than we hedge trimmers.)


On edit: And to note, the jobs never materialized; instead, the rich guy bought an extra Lexus, put in a new swimming pool at one of his villa, funneled a little back to the * campaign to keep the gravy train running, and invested in a few more bottle of 1961 Bordeaux.

[azmesa207]

6. Tax increase on a Bush tax cut

I* made the same amount as I did last year but paid in 500.00 . Last year we got back 400.00 My wife and I made under 40,000 as I am retired how that for making out on a Bush Tax cut

[alcuno]

12. Remember not long ago they were chortling about how the tax refunds

would give * a huge boost in the polls. Hmmm. I wonder who's getting all that loot back. I see that * paid $30,000 less. Nah, that can't be it.

[Yupster]

26. Why does anyone care what they got back?

It's what you pay that's important.

Let's say you withheld $ 100 per month last year and got $ 100 back.

This year you withheld $ 400 per month and got $ 300 back.

Would you think you paid less this year?

I think a lot of people would because in my business (stockbroker), I often ask people how much tax they paid last year, and at least half the people tell me "oh I got $ 500 back," or "I had to pay $ 200." People don't seem to have any idea how much tax they do or don't pay.

[mtnester]

2. Federal the same

But a payment of 950.00 owed to Ohio (we withhold single 0 and are married), plus the increase in my property taxes because schools not getting enough from the state or feds, the new 1% sales tax, higher gas prices, and I was not one of the fortunate to receive a tax break (hey my net stayed the course!)

[F.Gordon]

10. I miss the ole' Clinton "tax and spend" days

Same here.

State is repuke, so gov won't raise taxes. Forces counties and cities to do the work.

Increased property taxes for schools, increase of 1% sales tax, new point of sale tax, "de-regulated" energy company charging 50%-70% more, new county tax to keep open areas (I did vote for that one). And that's just on the personal side. Won't talk about what taxes and costs are doing to our business.....

[Deja Q]

3. Funny, I got LESS back from federal this year...

$200 less, to be precise. That's not what I call 25% more from last year...

$25 less from the state (MN), and Pawlenty said he wouldn't raise taxes. Gee, if he didn't raise taxes, where's my $25?

Yet alone the 25% more I'd get back from the feds?

(I'm in the same tax bracket as last year too...)

Let's say it like this: I make less than $45k per year.

[RobertSeattle]

5. Beware of "Average" when ever the RW is using it

Especially when they are shilling for the rich. They are master at using "average" to make Joe Six pack think he got a big tax cut.

[alcuno]

9. Well it was the RW that "predicted" a 25% increase and I've seen

several mystified commentators saying it's 5%. The latest was CNBC's Ron Insane(a).

[SoCalDem]

20. If there are 2 houses on the street, and I am unemployed,

BUT my neighbor makes a million a year.. Our "street average" is half a million..

That's why averages are so deceptive.. The minute I see a politician using "average", I know he/she is hiding something.

I always lament the fact that OUR guys do not put these things into easily understood terms.. Four samples

When W was touting his "tax plan", they should have used a "fictional family", making 45,000 a year..with car payments, mortgage, two school aged kids, etc.. the "norm"....

AND a family consisting of husband and wife, one retired, no extra income except maybe a pension and social security...and a subsistance type job for the working spouse

AND a single person making $40K..renting, no kids


AND an upper crusty family...say $200K, 1 kid,


By suing those comparisions and plugging them into the tax system he proposed, people could perhaps "see themselves" somewhere in the dynamic..


There are lots of unhappy folks right about now, who expected that $1137.00 tax cut he "promised", and they are writing checks TO the IRS

[Nobody]

7. The lower my income, the more I have to pay to the IRS

Even though I withhold at the highest possible rate, claiming zero, it still wasn't enough.

I noticed this pattern back in the early 90s when I made less than $10/hr. The lower my wages, the larger the checks I had to write out to both state and fed.

[bagnana]

11. cheer up. Bush got, what, 30k and Cheney 40k?

something like that.

[Nobody]

13. That's more than my poor unworthy self makes in a year! n/t

[SoCalDem]

24. Personally, I think that the first $25K should be exempt

:)

25001-30K....8%
30001-35K....9%
35001-40K....10%
40001-45K....11%
45001-50K....12%
50001-55K....13%
55001-60K....14%
60001-65K....15%
65001-70K....16%
70001-75K....17%
75001-80K....18%
80001-85K....19%
85001-90K....20%
90001-95K....21%
95001-100K...22%
100001-105K..23%
105001-110K..24%
110001-115K..25%
etc, up to max of 35%...

and the ONLY deductions.. interest on ONE home,interest on ONE car, college tuition (in FULL, based on state school),health insurance premiums (in FULL), prescription meds not covered by insurance, and childcare (in FULL, but not for nannies or live ins)...

ALL income is taxed the SAME, whether you chop wood, or go to the mailbox to get investment checks)..

Social security and pensions should NOT be taxable, until they reach 50K ..

How's THAT sound???? I think, with a fair and EASY system, people would not be as tempted to fudge their numbers..

I do not include a charity deduction, because this is where the big shots REALLY clip us.. They donate a painting or property at hugely inflated appraisal.. Charity should be just that... something you do out of the kindness of your heart, not for a tax break..

[Yupster]

25. Have you ever figured out how that happens?

It doesn't seem possible since tax rates go up the more you make. Of course you have to look at each individual case for mortgages, 401k contributions, deductions, etc.

[Nobody]

27. No idea

But for what it's worth, it's made no difference whether or not a mortgage or 401k contributions were involved.

I think I've hit on every combination and if I was making less than 30k/year, I had to pay in.

[buycitgo]

15. jesus.......I had to fucking PAY this time!

first time EVER!

state taxes too

what in the world is going on?

I sent in an extension, with what it says I owe, but I'm taking my stuff to an accountant to see if this can possibly be true!

can't believe it.

[alcuno]

17. I've heard this from a lot of people.

Did they think that people wouldn't notice?

[HawkerHurricane]

16. I suppose I should keep my big mouth shut.

Since I spent 5 months of last year in the "Persian Gulf Tax Free Zone", I got almost $4000 dollars more back than I did last year.

But I'm the exception, I'm sure.

[alcuno]

18. Good for you. You deserve it.

The "tax cut" zone appears not to have faired so well. I mean it's like the 33% Medicare increase. They are off by miles.

[JanMichael]

19. I used to get $400-$800 refunded every year. As a single payer.

This year (2003) I went to submit (With no significant income change from 2002) as "Married Filing Separately" and I owed, owed?!

Then we filed together and got a refund?

[guitar man]

21. What a bunch of shit

The wife and I made exactly the same money(within 50 bucks) as last year,exact same deductions etc. This year,$600 less on Fed return. State went from $50 refund to owing $52.

Tax Cuts my ass!!!!

[spanone]

22. you expected "them" to tell the truth???????

big mistake.

[alcuno]

23. Nah.

I guess they just like to lie big; 25% becomes 5%.

[Technowitch]

28. A taxation fallacy

Folks, don't be fooled by 'refund' numbers.

A refund isn't free money. It's your money, returned to you, because during the year you paid more than your total calculated tax liability.

I don't know if many of you remember, but there was a time back during Shrub's Daddy's presidency where he got this bright idea. How to give a tax cut without actually cutting any taxes. What he did was order the IRS to change the tax withholding tables. A family that on its W-4 exemption form claimed a total of, say four exemption points, would afterwards have slightly less taxes withheld.

People saw their paychecks go up slightly, and some of the more brain damaged actually thought they were getting something for nothing.

Then the proverbial fowl returned homeward to resume their perches (the chickens came home to roost). People who used to look forward to huge refunds to pay for summer vacations saw much, much less. And quite a few who used to get small refunds suddenly found themselves owing significant money come April 15th.

Bush the Greater's little popularity bump didn't just evaporate, he paid dearly for his little trick. People don't like feeling cheated.

Now then, the real way to judge your tax burden is as a percentage of your income. (Forget the refund -- you just got suckered into giving the Feds a free loan, which they are paying back when you get that check.) But don't just look at your payroll withholding taxes, which is the only portion against which you can expect any sort of refund. Look at your Social Security and Medicare taxes. Look at your state and local income taxes (where applicable). Further, many states have sales taxes and/or property taxes.

That, all together my friends, is your total tax burden.

Moreover, unless you are very wealthy, you just got suckered a second time. Why? Because most state and local governments are reeling from the huge reductions in subsidies from the Feds -- and so are raising their tax rates significantly. And they're cutting services. On top of this, even if you look at your Federal withholding and SSA and Medicare payments, have they gone down at all in your paycheck? If you are like 95% of Americans, the answer will either be "no" or "just a little". Meanwhile, Shrub, Vice President Crashcart and the rest of their robber baron crony friends are pocketing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax savings EACH YEAR. Sometimes even more.

Alcuno, that deficit you mentioned is due not to the fact that there was any significant tax cut for most Americans, but because some of the rich folks who used to be paying a pretty significant portion of the operating costs of this great country of ours were the ones who got the big tax cuts. Corporate tax rates, cut, and tax havens (such as offshoring of jobs and overseas export of corporate dollars and HQs) have been preserved and even encouraged. Capital gains taxes -- drastically reduced (to a level well below that of income tax rates). Inheritance taxes, which used to exempt a pretty hefty estate for us little people, have been all but eliminated. It goes on and on. If it's a tax that hits rich people and/or corporations, you can bet Bush and his friends will be against it and will try to get you to support its elimination. If it's a service you depend on, you can count on being asked to give it up or to endure "privatization" or severe cutbacks.

But never, ever mistake a tax refund for anything other than the return of money that was already yours in the first place.

[mrdmk]

32. Thank you for the history lesson

I now remember this little trick Mr. Bush Sr. used. The real irony of this was that the IRS was withholding too much money. Some people were up to their own tricks like claiming zero dependents for six months then claiming twelve (?) the maximum dependents for the next six months. The idea was to keep a zero or near zero on the tax return. The second thing Mr. Bush Sr. did was made it law that you can change your dependents one time a year. This was to do away with some of the extra (?) paperwork to the IRS and state tax boards.

Bottom line, the tax refund is a terrible savings plan considering that the government holds and uses your money for up to twelve months with no interest. Also do not gage your taxes by how much money you get back on your tax refund, you need to look at the amount payed in then the refund amount if any or the amount owed, subtract or add the two to determine the amount of taxes you do pay.

[NuttyFluffers]

29. i wish i made anything worth taxing/refunding....

this 'recovering' economy (going on its 4th year of recovery, don't know how much more recovery i can take...) has left me essentially destitute and dependent upon family.

how can i start my life when there's nothing out there? i envy each and everyone of you who have a positive cash flow coming in. remember, for each of those 'measley' fluctuations up or down on your tax/refund there are many others that lost almost everything for it, or have to postpone their dreams for years, or set back on a nightmarish treadmill of working poverty, or are now a little closer to striking distance of complete destruction...

i've come to realize that my future is no longer attached to america. a tragedy i'm sure, but one imposed by my fellow citizens to me and millions of others. if bush is re-elected, please, as i emigrate to a better life, please poke the eye of the nearest freeper you know (and are not related to).

[nonconformist]

30. We had to pay state taxes for the first time ever

Our federal refund was a bit less than average, but we ended up owing state $233. We've always gotten back right around $70 from state and our income has been consistent the past few years (between 38K and 40K).

Ironically, we're unemployed now (7 weeks and counting) and didn't have the money to pay state, so we'll have to pay interest and penalties too when we CAN afford it. Oh joy.

[Fescue4u]

31. My taxes went down significantly.

Fortunately, 2003 was my best year yet, albeit only slightly better than Clintons last year in office.

I ended up making about $13,000 more in 2003 than in 2002, but tax liability stayed only went up about $300.

My ohio state tax did go up this year though. I usually get a small refund and this year I had to pay about $250.

From a refund pov, I got back $4900 this year, whereas last year I got back about $3200 (counting federal only)

Bush is a shitty president, but despite popular opinion, taxes were cut.

[RebelOne]

33. What tax refund? I had to pay. I always have to pay.

Only paid $10 less this year. Big deal.