Ban me if you want... I am a Dutchman

[dutchdemocrat]

The first Republicans that cross over a dyke or penetrate my country to protect people like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice or any vermin - or try and extradite US war criminals who have violated international law can expect a fucking bullet in your head if you come near my house... my family, my people and civilised Europe.

Why am I so angry? Because the 'Hague Invasion Act' is law.

America has carte blanche power to roll over Holland if they 'feel' like it.

We have seen too much war in the past, we know its ugliness, and we won't accept it on our soil. Certainly not from the oil cowboys. The trade deals are dead in the Americas... the Mexicans and Canadians don't like Bushco, most of South America is following the Chavez, Lula socialist philosophy to create a strong middle class and your regime wants favellas and gated communities for America as far as I can see. Bring in the Mexicans says Bush. Why? You have to ask yourself that.

We are half a billion strong in Europe now. Don't underestimate us. Nato is getting weaker... and we want our own army. We will get it... as soon as OPEC moves to the Euro America is FUCKED. That's what this war was about of course but I don't think the rise of Europe and its progressive satellites such as Canada can be stopped.

Am I pissed off? YES. Get them out PLEASE. Bush has to go. Don't let them win. I fight everyday in my own way. Everyday.


U.S.: 'Hague Invasion Act' Becomes Law
White House "Stops at Nothing" in Campaign Against War Crimes Court
(New York, August 3, 2002) A new law supposedly protecting U.S. servicemembers from the International Criminal Court shows that the Bush administration will stop at nothing in its campaign against the court, Human Rights Watch warned today.


http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/08/aspa080302.htm

[boobooday]

1. We are trying, Dutchman!

We hear ya!

We know that getting Bush out is not only necessary to protect America, but people all over the world. And the reason they want to do away with international courts is because they KNOW that they deserve to be tried and convicted for their war crimes.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[truthspeaker]

2. if it happens I'll be right next to you

I'll bring my own G3.

[T_i_B]

3. The Netherlands are only one example...

...of a country at risk under the "invade the Hague act". :-(

[Iceburg]

5. We Did it in 1812, we can do it again ...

For our Dutch friends bringing muskets, cannons, etc...

Under the new Canadian Firearms legislation, they are not considered 'firearms'. Declare them as a 'flintlock musket' - don't say 'gun'. They do not have to be registered by Canada Customs and reenactors do not have to pay the annual $50 fee. You can bring in up to 8 kgs (17.5 lbs) of black powder for your own use without a permit as long as it is packed in nothing larger than 1 lb containers.

Same thing goes for the swivel gun. However, refer to it as a 'small cannon' though, because that is what it is and the Customs officer may misunderstand you if you refer to it as a 'swivel gun'.

yer friends, the Canadians

[T_i_B]

8. Wot about...

...sharp pointy sticks! O8)

[Iceburg]

10. Sticks...Lumber ---Well we're are still dukin' it out in a NAFTA dispute

just don't use the "L" word.

[dutchdemocrat]

11. What about a united Europe and Russia

Using the Euro as a pointed stick... Then warming up to China.

Boom. No musket needed.

[Iceburg]

26. But you'd would need a dog trainer to get Blair off of Bush's lap

as long as Blair answers to "Sit, Stay, Fire" his ex-allies are going to poo-poodle any of his ideas including euroization.
He REALLY needs to distance himself SOON.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. No banning for you

and no arguments from us.

[amazona]

6. good lord, more proof that caligula has gone mad

I don't know what to say. I hope you realize that the overwhelming majority of Americans have no desire to invade the Netherlands and wish you nothing but the best. Unfortunately, the inmates seem to be in charge of the asylum at the moment.

[stopthegop]

7. true...

but..the overwhelming majority of Americans have no desire to be part to the World Court either...that's why we're not...the Senate (both parties) won't ratify the treaty....

probably won't happen any way

[leftofthedial]

9. well, at least you're not French

Hitler wasn't half this blatant.

[truthspeaker]

12. PS it's spelled "dike" in English

"dyke" means something very different (and little boys aren't allowed to put a finger in the hole).

[ursacorwin]

14. BWHAHAHAHA!

sorry, for some reason it thought that very funny...

wow, dutchman! do you consider yourself to be in the majority with these opinions?

no argument from me, btw. american internal concerns, while temporarily bothersome to you, will eventually cause the collapse of the 'virtual' american empire, and the real action (r&d, social thought, ecological issues, human rights) will continue to be in asia and europe. ha ha, it's happening already, via the DOD funding for swedish labs to do stem cell stuff, and all the neat electronic gizmos that you can basically get and use anywhere but here, etc.

so glad i have euro friends to remind me of what life is like in civilized circles.

[dutchdemocrat]

15. translations issue

Actually it's dijk in Dutch.

My mistranslation. Oops.

[Nihil]

51. No, you were right first time

It's "dyke" in English and "dike" in American.

(You still have to be careful where you put your finger though ...)

[Dark]

13. I'll tell you what.

You live in the Netherlands, right? Why don't you just stop by a coffee shop in Amsterdam, pick me up a couple of 'souveniers' (:smoke:) and then we'll talk.

Just kidding! We want him out just as much as you do. Just please, PLEASE, tell your foreign friends that Bu$h doesn't represent all of us Americans, or even the majority.

But, if you get the chance, I wouldn't mind those souveniers. :smoke:

[dutchdemocrat]

19. Well

This is not about anti-Americanism. I hate the cloudiness being shafted by the right and hardly expect it from the progressives on the left.

Everytime I get into it on our site (www.expatforums.org) which is an open forum for expatriates from around the world who live in Europe (mainly English speaking), I am labelled anti-American for expressing my views against the bush regime. I don't have a problem with America.... there is so much good coming out and there is a lot of influence in Europe.

But - fuck it... if every time I squeek a little about Bush's failures at www.expatforums.org I get slammed. By whom? The arm of the Junta in Brussels and the Hague. The apologists who just want to hold onto their fucking jobs. And they post on our site. Fortunatly we have a solid group of progressive americans and euros who are willing to meet them head on. Lots of good tech and IT people who are truly expatriates and have migrated, and believe we need to move.

Please. Don't misconstrue my anger with Bush with hatred of America. I have been a member for over a year here and am coming close to a thousand. Skinner inspired me to start expatforums.org and this community has been my inspiration to create a forum where people from abroad and going abroad can debate the issues.

Cheers

DD.

[Tinoire]

30. Damn. Gonna have to come give you a hand if my account is still active

Great posts.

Hang in there.

[Tactical Progressive]

16. We have strong evidence that Dutchland has WMD

ready to launch against us at a moment's notice.

We are coming to liberate you, do not fear. We will fix your water and electricity too when we get there. We expect you to throw flowers when we arrive.

Do not hate us for our freedoms.

[Arugula Latte]

55. We expect tulips, of course

When you throw the flowers, that is. Oh, and a little Dutch chocolate would be nice, as well. :)

[outinforce]

17. When You Get This Army You Speak Of

When you get this army you are speaking of, who will be in it? Will it be staffed with volunteers? People who accept the call of service from either the Dutch government or the European Government?

Will they be expected to carry out orders that are given to them?

Will there be penalties that either the Dutch government or the European goverment will be able to assess to those members of this army who refuse to carry out orders given?

And if one of the members of this army should be arrested because someone in the USA (or one of our satellites) think that that particular member of your army have violated an international law -- what would you expect your government to do about it?

Would you expect your own government or the government of Europe to sit back and simply surrender that member of your army to a system of "justice" that your country had never agreed to? Or might you expect your government to do all it could to rescue the member of your army?

[dutchdemocrat]

21. No

We are saying FUCK YOU to NATO.

and the EU will form its own security. oooo... jargon word of the day. Security. Bullshit.

Europeans have lived and suffered and dealt with terrorism for decades. Including US funded IRA attacks on the UK.

The European Union will form it's own ahem.... "security" forces in the future. Sorry we are not for hire any more. Not for long. Not when OPEC goes Euro. The dollar is dead and your jackals are tearing up what is left of the meat.

[outinforce]

25. I May Not Have Been Clear

I did not mean to suggest that your security forces would be for hire in the future.

What I did mean to suggest is that the people who will serve in your "security" forces may be called upon to perform their service in lands outside of Europe.

Even if that is not the case, they may -- at some point -- be called upon to perform service in some areas of Europe.

And it is possible that when the members of your security forces perform their service, they may do something that someone thinks is inappropriate or immoral or violates international law.

And, should that happen, and should the USA be the country that happens to "arrest" the member of your security who violates, according to the USA, some norm of international behavior, what would you expect the reaction of your government or of the European government, to be?

Would you expect your government to simply sit by while the USA tries aq member of your security force for something the USA thinks is a violation of international law?

If not that, then whatm, exactly, would you expect of your government?

[dutchdemocrat]

28. No - you have not been clear. You have been ignorant.

25. I May Not Have Been Clear


I did not mean to suggest that your security forces would be for hire in the future.

What I did mean to suggest is that the people who will serve in your "security" forces may be called upon to perform their service in lands outside of Europe.

Even if that is not the case, they may -- at some point -- be called upon to perform service in some areas of Europe.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

WHY SHOULD WE PERFORM OUTSIDE OF EUROPE UNLESS UNDER THE BANNER OF THE UN. THAT IS THE JOB OF THE UN, WHICH YOUR CARTEL DOES NOT ACCEPT. WHAT HAPPENS INTERNALLY IN EUROPE SHOULD BE NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS AS I FULLY CONCLUDE WE CAN SORT OUT OUR OWN DIFFERENCES WITHOUT YOUR MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX COOKING CONFLICT

-----------------------------------------------------------------

And it is possible that when the members of your security forces perform their service, they may do something that someone thinks is inappropriate or immoral or violates international law.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

PERHAPS. BUT WE ARE SIGNATORIES AND AMERICA IS NOT. THERE WILL BE NO NUREMBURG FOR IRAQ. WHY CAN'T YOU DIFFERENTIATE OR UNDERSTAND MY POINT. I SAID EUROPEAN ARMY. NOT UN, AND NOT NATO. CERTAINLY NOT NATO.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

And, should that happen, and should the USA be the country that happens to "arrest" the member of your security who violates, according to the USA, some norm of international behavior, what would you expect the reaction of your government or of the European government, to be?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

WOULD I BELEIVE THE ARRESTOR? FUCK NO. YOU HAVE NOT PENNED YOUR FUCKING PRIDE ON TOO MANY INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS AND HAVE USED ECONOMIC LEVERAGE TO RIDE OVER THE POOREST OF THE POOR COUNTRIES TO PUSH YOUR IGNORANCE OF INTERNATIONAL LAW. FUCK YOU.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Would you expect your government to simply sit by while the USA tries aq member of your security force for something the USA thina violation of international law?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

IN THE HAGUE DICKHEAD. WE SIGNED, YOU DIDN'T. WE ARE FIGHTING AND EUROPE WILL WIN.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

If not that, then whatm, exactly, would you expect of your government?

=----------------------------------------------------------------

WHAT GOVERNMENT? EUROPE? OR THE NETHERLANDS? YOU SEEM TO HAVE A HARD TIME GRASPING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NATO, THE UN, THE EU, AND PLANS FOR A EUROPEAN ARMY BASED ON THE EU.

PLEASE READ A LITTLE. I AM ON THE DU SIDE. I THINK THE LIBERAL POLICIES OF CANADA AND MUCH OF EUROPE ARE BEACONS ON HOW PEOPLE SHOULD LIVE. HAVE YOU BEEN TO HOLLAND. DO YOU UNDERSTAND EUROPEAN CULTURE. CAN YOU SPEAK MORE THAN ONE LANGUAGE?

[outinforce]

29. Whew!

As a matter of fact, contrary to your snide insinuation, I do speak more than one language.

Can you eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich?

Since we seem to be mis-understanding each other, let me try this:

What you seem to be suggesting is that the USA should, if a member of its armed services should ever be "arrested" and brought to trial in the Hague, simply sit back and let that service person be tried.

As an American, I find that completely unacceptable.

[dutchdemocrat]

32. If that American

If that American has violated the Geneva Convention or the ICC he should be brought to trial. As should Saddam, as should bin Laden.


No but you have Gitmo.

Don't you?

[Forkboy]

35. Some think we are exempt from the very things we claim to stand for

it's sad,isn't it?

[outinforce]

36. "If"

Excuse me.

Perhaps it is because we live under different systems of jurisprudence.

Here in the backward USA, our system of justice is based upon the totally unsophisitcated notion that a person is presumed to be innocent until he or she is proven guilty.

So when you say, "If that American has violated the Geneva Convention or the ICC he should be brought to trial.", it does rather seem to me that you are dispensing with the need for a trial, no?

I mean, the premise of your statement is that the American has violated the Geneva Convention. If that is the case, then why try him or her? Why not just move to the punishment phase?

Perhaps you are thinking a la Ashcroft?

[dutchdemocrat]

40. Asscroft

Innocent until proven guilty?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.... welcome to Cuba. Bullshit.

Backwards is right.

You said it.

I said trial. I said the Hague, I said Europe, I said civilisation.

You claim Asscroft.

please, can you ask your doctor to up the valium.

[dpibel]

47. That's a very thin straw you're grasping at

For starters, you're just engaging is silliness here. Even if you assume that the "has violated" usage in that sentence perfectly expresses the poster's meaning, all you've done is prove that the poster inadequately grasps the principles of law. (Note to dutchdemocrat: This isn't even a translation problem; it's just someone really desperate to defend the indefensible).

Would you care to expound for me on the presumptions involved in trials before this court? WHAT??? You don't know?? You're just talking out yer butt?

In your world, all this hoohah about Slobodan Milosevic is just show? They already know he's guilty but they want to give him the courtesy of a show trial?

In point of fact, your argument is specious anyway: If an American, or anyone else, is in fact guilty of war crimes, that person should be brought to justice. Determining guilt or innocence is what trials are for.

BTW. If you think that the presumption of innocence is cherished and honored in the US justice system, you haven't spent very much time in close proximity with the US justice system.

[dpibel]

42. "As an American"

Edited for a stray "d" in the title.

The point that dutchdemocrat is making, and you appear to be missing is this:

You are attempting the sort of empathy argument that seems not to work with Iraq invasion supporters, i.e., "If America were invaded, wouldn't you be doing the same thing Iraqis are doing?"

The difference here is that you expect him to say, "If a Dutch citizen were arrested for alleged war crimes, well that would be different! I would expect my government to try to rescue him, just like yours is promising to do with Americans charged with war crimes." Unfortunately for your argument, as dutchdemocrat is pointing out, he would not expect his government to do that. This is because his government, as well as most civilized governments, has agreed that, if there is evidence that their military has been involved in war crimes, a trial is perfectly appropriate.

In other words, the rest of the world places some faith in the rule of law.

America, on the other hand, does not.

The bizarre rationalization is this: All those other wicked countries in the world have as their principal interest harrassing and humiliating the righteous and godly country of the USofA. Hence, if America were to agree to the jurisdiction of the international court, billions of Americans would be brought up on false charges, just to try to make those lesser countries feel better about themselves.

I respectfully submit that this is a form of paranoia bordering on mental illness. Or maybe it's an expression of guilty conscience.

[dutchdemocrat]

44. Simple answer

Yes. I can eat a peanut butter and jam sandwich, but I don't really like it.

If he shot a pregnant woman in the gut and killed her what makes him any less evil than the 'bogyman' you created called Saddam? Your hypocrisy is, frankly, you are merely pointing out the fact that you have been brainwashed.

Yes.

Fucking brainwashed.

I feel sorry for you.

The one pleasure I have in life is never allowing my children to watch FoxKids and banning CNN international from my home in order to eliminate the sick propaganda that oozes from your sick corporate culture. Have you ever seen Foxkids? It's a training ground for killing.

German, Belgian, BBC, Dutch and French television will suffice in this household.

[outinforce]

53. I Have Seen The Light!!!

O thank you, dutchdemocrat.

But for people like you, I would never have been able to realize the extent of my brainwashing -- excuse me, my fucking brainwashing.

I am so glad -- so very, very glad that you feel sorry for me.

I cannot begin to tell you what comfort it gives me to know that a member of the far more advanced, far more cultured, and far more moral culture that is Europe has taken pity on me.

Please do forgive me for addressing you earlier as I did. I realize now that I am a mere American worm with a fucking washed brain.

Although I do not watch Foxkids, I do watch PBS and Discovery and TLC, and the History Channel. I also watch NBC and ABC and CBS from time to time.

But, alas, I do not have access to those true beacons of truth and light and all that is civilized -- German, Belgian, BBC, Dutch and French television. And, double alas! -- I do not even have access to the CBC!.

Oh, woe is me. Woe is me.

Can you recommend to a useless American worm who has been thoroghly and totally brainwashed by the global corporate culture that blinds all but the most sophisticated within this nation -- can you recommend for someone like me a re-education camp or a venue where I might go in order to achieve the high degree of sophistication, knowledge, and culture that you possess?

Please do help me. Have pity on me. I repent. Help me get better.

Please.

[mot78]

18. You might want to change "dyke" to "dike"

"dyke" isn't exactly polite.

[dutchdemocrat]

22. Sorry

Dijk is the what we say in Holland
I mistranslated. Sorry my English is not up to par. If I offended any DU lesbians I am sorry... but at least in my country they can marry.

How's your French? your German? your Frisian? Can you understand someone from Glasgow?

I doubt it.

[Iceburg]

27. Don't change it ... the gays and lesbian (self-included) are just

waitin' for dubbya to make his next move. If he crosses one dyke or one queen we are going to break into a very loud chorus of show tunes ... its part of our pysch-ops program.

[bigtree]

56. Hee hee, my first good laugh today. I needed one.

:hi:

[muriel_volestrangler]

50. No need to apologise

'dyke' is an acceptable British English spelling for the dam; my English dictionary gives 'dike' as the primary spelling for both meanings, and 'dyke' as the secondary.

[Skittles]

20. HOWDY DUTCHDEMOCRAT

Welcome to the DU! Some of us here in Texas don't want that moronic warmongering asshole returning either!!! :hi:

[anarchy1999]

23. Why in Heavens name would you ever believe you would be banned

for this post? "Love you, man".

And yes, there are those of us desperately trying to take care of this unfortunate situation we find ourselves in here in the US. We count on the support of others around the world in our fight for justice and peace for all.

[Cleita]

24. I'm on your side Dutch.

Let's hope we can clean our house out of these imperialists once and for all. This is not what America is about. Incidentally, my ancestors immigrated from Holland and settled in New Amsterdam in what is now New York.

[Tinoire]

31. Really really excellent posts

I have been screaming at the top of my lungs here that our wars right now have to do with Euro vs dollar being the currency of OPEC and saving NATO which most of the rest of the world wants gone (justifying NATO's existence was another KEY factor in the war against Yugoslavia). Thanks for making those points so clearly.

You're firmly cemented on my A-list you know :)

See you on your forum soon.

[dutchdemocrat]

38. Tinoire

Tinoire

Our home is yours.

Feel welcome.

Pop in once in awhile... I have been a little vitriolic tonight but I ANGRY. I am Gen X and have a couple of small girls. I want to fight to give them a better world. And I will. I am Dutch but I am also Canadian and I know you straddle other cultures.

Our policy at the site has always been to open up to all views. Expatriates are what we are... some are conservative and some are progressive. We allow the clash.

We have the Brussels boys and we have the Hague hags, but we also have the disinfo spooks. I know. I can see when they come from Langley.

We are beating them off though. It's not hard. Most expats are progressive. And people at DU need to support the expatriate democrat community because we are talking about tens of thousands of votes from Americans overseas... it's part of globalisation. People are moving around.

Worth pondering Skinner.

email me if you want.

[e-mail]

[Tinoire]

41. I'll see you there tonight.

There's nothing I hate less than the disinfo spooks.

It would probably be a welcome change for me because I have a LOT of anger right now and I'd rather take it out on those deserving asses than on people here.

Cheers and keep the faith.

Stop and think how many of us there are all over the world and how few of them; they are outnumbered. This is why they're in such a sloppy panic.

[TheSuaveOne]

33. What...

...makes you think the US would want to invade your country...la

[Eureka]

39. The fact that they have a law allowing it?

I mean really, legislation that pre-approves a military strike in this instance is outrageous.

I don't think the anguish is about trial processes, it's about the fact that the US has pre-approved invasion. (see original post)

On top of that, does anyone think this legislation would be used to save a PFC or someone of that level? I doubt it. I can imagine it being used when they frogmarch Rummy and Cheney though.

[MAlibdem]

34. Thanks, but

As much as I dislike the current administration, I still like American hegemony.

I would prefer a friendlier face on the hegemony though...

[dpibel]

48. Is that really the word you meant to use?

We're usually a little subtler about our aspirations to empire.

[Misunderestimator]

37. WELL SAID!!

A first generation Dutch-american myself. Half my family lives in your beautiful country. We're trying... keep the faith! :)

[BabsSong]

43. My family is Dutch..........if we invade I want to be in the front line

because I want to see where I came from. On Mom's side it's the "Ball's" (you know like Lucille Ball). My kids are a product of a union (first husband) whose linage is the Van Putten's. They apparently were house servants in the Queen's service centuries ago. Would that be Mary of Orange (or am I in the wrong period of history here---forgot which one of the monarchy)? You are on my list of places I want to go (I'm also half Swiss and want to go there) after husband retires. But I'm so afraid of traveling now thanks to this bastard. Please tell your countrymen that there are over half this nation who hate this slime. I thank God that I got to Paris (there I could live forever) and London before I became an international disease.

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. Kerry, Clinton, Edwards, Stabenow, and Mikulski voted for this

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00140

Perhaps it's not as bad as you are making it out to be.

[mmonk]

46. The one thing about the bush administration

is the consistency of their double standards. This is an example.

[Freddie Stubbs]

49. But Kerry, Clinton, Edwards, Stabenow, and Mikulski voted for this

They aren't exactly the far-right wing of the Democratic Party.

[dutchdemocrat]

52. So tell tell me

Would Dennis Kucinich have voted for this? Would Dean have given the nod?

NO

What you are talking about is Republican lite.

Sorry. Kerry is not progressive. In Europe or Canada he would be further to the right than then mainstream RW parties. Nevermind progressive left.

Anyone but Bush for me is basically Bush-lite now. When it comes down to Kerry.

I pray I am wrong.

[DFLer4edu]

54. Why aren't there more people like you in the US?