On the Marine-does anyone think it's ever been any different?

[slowroll]

Has this sort of thing not occurred during every other war ever fought? Maybe the guy shot him out of bloodlust, or hate, or maybe revenge from seeing his buddies killed, maybe the emotional and psychological pressures of combat got to him to an extent that he could no longer control himself, maybe he thought the guy was faking in order to draw him into a trap...who knows? But people here act like it's an unusual act in war. It's not. This sort of thing happens in every war on every side, whether the US is involved or not. It's part of the face of it.

There was a Captain Spiers in the famous Easy Company, 506th PIR of "Band of Brothers" fame. Speirs once executed a number of German POWs on a work detail. Ambrose kind of glossed over it and HBO presented it as an apocryphal story, but others confirmed that it happened. General agreement was that he wasn't an evil man-he'd just been in combat for three days or so without sleep and his psychological "bottle" was full. This was one of the best respected commanders of one of the most famous American units of the "good war", a man who undoubtably played a larger role than most in ending Nazism. After the war he led a normal, productive life and was considered an outstanding citizen. He was not a psycho, or an unbalanced, dangerous cold blooded murderer. He was just a man who was asked to do a task that no man should, to kill and maim his fellow human beings with lead and high explosives and to lead others so that they could do so. The human mind can only handle so much before it starts to make mistakes and produce abberant behavior.

Other American soldiers have told stories having several friends die in an engagement where enemy soldiers fought until they ran out of ammunition and then tried to surrender. We'd all like to think that we could instantaneously shift our minds from the fear and violence of combat and the horror of seeing our friends die to a lower gear where we immediately protect and succor those who we were trying to kill and who were trying to kill us moments ago. Maybe. I'm not sure I can tell you that with certainty.

And these are just American soldiers, who have the reputation world wide as being the most civil and kind of any nation. Doubt that? Name another. The French in Algeria? The British in Ireland? The Russians in Afghanistan? The Germans? The Japanese?

All I'm saying is that one should not be so fast to judge this Marine. What happened is not exceptional. The only difference is that we now have the technology to bring it into our living rooms in living color. Before the only people who witnessed things like that saw it as a part of the whole ugly sordid mess. The fault here lies with the American government that sent him to war, not with the nature of combat itself and certainly not with that one Marine.

[Beacho]

1. Nope

That shit has gone on ever since Og picked up a rock and slammed Ugs head with it.

that includes 'The Good War'. Hell, especially WWII. No love lost on any battlefield there.

[amber dog democrat]

4. Happens in every war.

But don't think that the Marine Brass won't make an example of him.
There are not supposed to be reporters around when you execute prisoners.
this won't do much for the career of his CO either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Here is my problem with this logic

Once you start justifying war crimes, from ANYBODY, then they become acceptable

Yes this Marine reflects way too many problems

Chiefly a breakdown in command and we have lost control of the force... and yes the responsibility is shared by those who ordered him to combat. But we TRIED and SHOT many Germans who did exactly this to Ameircan POWs at a place called Bastogne... you may remember that... and nobody batted an eye.

It is a violation of the Geneva Convention.

Now don't justify this kid but rather ask yourself WHY did he do this?

I have some answers and I expect more of this.

1.- Poorly suplied troops
2.- Troops who have been on the line way too long (you hinted at this)
3.- Lt and Captains are lossing control of Sergeants, and Majors and Colonels no longer have their JOs on a leash. It is called a break down in command
4.- Low to non existent morale

What will be needed to regain control of the force is not going to be pleasant. Good news, bushco does not think there is a problem... and the responsibilty is at their feet too.

Oh and before you ask, I have been in combat and lord my job was TO EONFORCE that silly convention people are now going out of their way to justify breaking.

[kostya]

5. Unfortunately though, everyone is going to focus on the Marine

and not the problems that lead to such incidents. - K

[bowens43]

8. Nonsense.

We have focused on the problems that lead to the incident. Most of us here have been concentrating on the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq. That doesn't mean that those who commit war crimes should go unpunished. This asshole murdered a helpless , wounded , unarmed human being.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Ok these are two separate points actually

The Marine HAS TO face the music... after all the investigating is done, ok... and by the way UNDER the UCMJ he is GUILTY, until proven innocent, a nice quirck... that few understand... that is the UCMJ not your civilian code.

Now here is what I want YOU to do. I want you to seat down and write a nice letter to your congress critters and the papers... for the moment, in that letter, IGNORE the marine, insofar as he pulled the trigger. I want you to emphasize what is going on in the force and that this is a symtom, (as abu ghraib, Afghanistan and many others) of an over extended force et al

I just gave you the talking points

Run with them

:-)

This way we may indirectly avoid more of these incidents...

[slowroll]

10. No, you're missing my point entirely.

No matter how well your troops are trained, supplied, led or provisioned, no matter how right your cause, things like what happened in that video happen in combat, any and every example of combat, all the time. It's the nature of the beast.

This isn't comparable to Malmedy or Abu Ghraib. Joachim Peiper ordered the execution of prisoners as a matter of expediency and to strike terror into US troops. His SS soldiers carried out a clearly illegal order and shot prisoners who had been taken into custody and searched for weapons, i.e. whom they were absolutely certain presented no threat, in cold blood. Abu Ghraib was an example of poor leadership, overzealous intel troops and poorly trained MPs who took a sick pleasure in torturing their charges. This incident wasn't even remotely similar.

Geneva Conventions apply, certainly. But I can't think of an example of anyone ever being prosecuted for something like this that occurred in a tense environment during an on-going action. It doesn't get prosecuted because the people responsible for bringing charges forward understand that it happens, for one reason or another.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Okie dokie, I will wait for the

ICRC to file and JAG to complete... and this will be investigated for once simple reason IT WAS ON THE FIVE O'CLOCK NEWS...

By the way, YOU ALSO ARE AWARE that the UCMJ DOES have punishments for this.....and this is ILEGAL and considered a crime under both the UCMJ and Geneva... and I know them are quaint these days.

By the way, before you assume I have been in combat, and yes I have DISOBEYED ilegal orders... and yes I have witnessed my fair share of horrors

So don't assume I am talking out of my ass...

And as they say... everybody has a hole and some well you know the rest.

[slowroll]

23. I never assumed anything.

I'm well aware that the UCMJ and the Laws of Land Warfare have provisions covering "this", depending on what "this" is determined to be.

And I'm well aware that the only reason it'll be investigated is that it's on the TV.

But I'll betcha it never even gets to an Article 32 hearing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Truly depends how much noise people make

Chances are the kid wil get an Article 15, enforcing the view in the arab world that we see them only as dogs, how you win friends and make allies, yep right.

It mayh go to article 32 depending on how much noise and whehter people connect them dotts

[MSgt213]

3. Your absolutely correct and worse has happen and never been reported

or investigated. But I can't be mad at anyone that's outraged because they are under the misguided belief we Americans should act with honor at all times and rise above the terrorists. The sad fact is though, we are no better or worst then anyone else. What would make us different is if we kept out of illegal wars in the first place.

[bowens43]

6. Of curse we should judge the son of a bitch.

The fact soldiers have been murdeing helpless people for ever doesn't justify the crime. The asshole needs to be locked up. He should be charged with murder, tried and then put behind bars for the rest of his life.

[Cuban_Liberal]

12. Shouldn't we wait until CID completes its investigation?

I'm persoanlly in favor of having ALL the facts in hand, before we convict OR acquit him.

[slowroll]

13. You can't even make an attempt

to put yourself in his shoes?

[Forkboy]

17. Get back to us

after you've put yourself in the shoes of the dead man.

[slowroll]

20. non sequitor n/t

n/t

[Chef]

7. War

You are right. War is hell. It is insane to think you can give an 18 year old a gun, tell him that these people killed people on 9/11, and are Godless haters of our freedoms, an expect him to behave any differently.

If we were in a legal war (one declared by congress) then it should be Katie-bar-the-door. But, since this is a bullshit illegal war, we should expect to be appalled by the application of some false ethical code on what we do. I feel sorry for the poor fool who was put into this hell where he lost his sole for George Bush.

[Old and In the Way]

9. Few here blame the troops. If I was in the same position, I can't

say for sure how war would effect my behaviour. Who I do blame are those who worked to make this war and occupation happen. There is no principled reason for us there. This administration has has put our sons and daughters, brothers and sisters into harms way to further their narrow political/financial agenda.

I also think that GE/NBC knew full well what it was doing when they broadcast this tape. Did it help the welfare and security of the soldiers there? No. Was this the act of a corporate media that is outraged with the actions of our soldiers? Hardly.

This is meant to further divide the American people. Because, as we take sides on this issue, the focus is deflected and diverted from the criminals who have taken over our government.

[merh]

11. Maybe you are correct, but I hate hypocrites.

If this was an Iraqi insurgent or terrorist standing over the body of an unarmed marine lying on the ground, what would be your reaction and/or the reaction of the U.S. public?

Come to think of it, what has been the reaction of the public and many here to the video of the British woman being shot in the head? :shrug:

Both are very, very disturbing and sad. :cry:

[slowroll]

15. My reaction

to the exact same scene happening with the nationalities reversed would be the same as it is now. I cannot speak for the rest of the American public as they display the same lack of understanding of the nature of combat as do those on this board who would have that Marine clapped in irons.

Execution of hostages/prisoners in cold blood is a different matter.

I would point out that these Iraqis were NOT in the custody of the Marines. They had been treated and searched, yes, but by a different unit and 24 hours prior to this incident occurring. There was no way for the Marines who approached them to know their status and they obviously came in that building regarding them as a threat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Under teh conventions the previous unit

did not leave any signs that they have been searched and secured adn are now non combatants

They can do that, treat and move on, if they cannot move them to the rear

So this troop has other problems to deal with

But we cannot justify this... or we become like them

[slowroll]

21. I don't know that they could have been "secured"

bound and gagged? Even then there's no telling what had happened to them over the last day. Maybe a stay behind unit had come in, evaluated their injuries, told them they were beyond hope and could best serve their cause as a martyr and wired up a satchel charge underneath them. Who knows? But that Marine has gotta be thinking that way if he wants to stay alive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Yes and the Marine has to check to make sure bodies are

not booby trapped... or that they did not get their paws on weapons et al.

If the kid checked them, used flexx cuffs, many would still be screaming but that is perfectly allowable

He screamed

HE IS FUKCING FACKING death, and then pulled the trigger. There was no a-checking. There were many reasons why that man did what he did... buddies were either killed or injured and hell he was shot the previous day. Sorry, but somebody is loosing control of the force, and you know what happens to a force no longer in control? Two possibilies, and both are not nice

1.- They will shoot at anyting that moves, they are in a bad situation and they have no hope, how much worst can it get?

2.- They will disobey orders and refuse to do their job becoming seating ducks.

This is what I am seeing... we have already seen instances of both of these extremes.

By the by trust me when I say this, I have CUFFED people to protect myself, and it was usually questioned until those people started threatening medical staff... that usually killed the argument. Once it took a guy decking the doctor to fully kill it

[slowroll]

26. OK.

I'll argue the details.

I disagree with your interpretation of the vid, altho neither of us can really know. The guy obviously thought the Iraqi was faking being dead, unless he yelled something in the vein of "He's coming right for us!!" to give him an excuse to cap the guy.

If Marine thought the Iraqi was faking being dead he probably read some sort of malice into his faking it. His screaming "He's fucking faking it!" is the Marines best defense, in my mind. It shows the Marine thought the Iraqi to be something other than a wounded, helpless individual. You'll notice that nobody shot the healthy, obviously alive guy on the floor. They didn't find him suspicious.

Of course, these are particulars. I don't agree that all incidents like this are due to a breakdown of command. I don't think I could agree with that argument's logical extension, that incidents like this, or even incidents of a less excusable nature like I described in the original post, don't happen with well-led, well-supplied troops.

[eagler]

14. The swift boat veterans will tell you

these things never happen.

[slowroll]

18. You know,

I didn't want to make that point as I'm rather new here. But exactly.

[lectrobyte]

27. It's called the fog of war...

And I don't want to think about what happens to you after you see your best friend in your unit killed. A few booby traps, a few dead friends, who can say what any of us would do? Adrenaline, panic, fear, and (count with me now) you have one-thousand-one to decide to shoot or not... And beyond that, your mind gets pushed into an evil place. I was too young for the Vietnam draft by a few years, but I had plenty of friends and relatives over there (like the man says, they draft the white trash first around here), and I got to see the aftermath of those who came back. What's it like to see the guy who you thought was the confidnet coolest together guy in the world as a high school senior come back, shattered, halfway through a sixpack crying as he explains they hung the bodies in the barb wire around the fire base to scare off the patrols? How would you act if you thought your life could end any second?

Sorry if I'm rambling a bit. I can never blame the guy behind the M16 when shit happens, but I do hope (channeling a bit of Malloy here) that *'s master has the fires waiting stoked up good and hot for placing them in that situation.