Sgrena's driver survived, right????

[old blue]

If so, that's pretty strong evidence against the US story. The car gets fired upon because it's speeding and ignoring warnings, yet the only person to suffer fatal wounds from the 300-400 rounds fired at the car is the person who wrapped himself around the passenger in the back seat??

If the US version is even close to true, wouldn't they aim at the driver?

[qanda]

1. I agree

And I'm so glad that you made this point. I've been thinking about it since Friday. Why didn't they shoot the driver, if they wanted to stop the car?

[FreedomAngel82]

42. Exactly

That would've made more sense.

[AndrewJacksonFaction]

51. Not really. I read somewhere...............

when they (terrorist) did a truck bomb in Saudi Arabia, the marine tried to take a shot at the driver. He hit the driver and killed him but the truck kept going till it hit the building and blew up anyways. From there forth they made a decision to shoot at the engine block, in hopes to stop the car and perp.

I am recalling from memory and I am not %100 on where this happened at.

[amber dog democrat]

2. no they would kill the passengers and any witnesses first

The Driver would be flown to GITMO for indeterminate questioning - and later " dissapeared " if the driver was disposable. Maybe the driver HAS dissapeared.
This is how the US normally does things. I guess the patrol screwed up this time.
There should not have been any survivors.

[murray hill farm]

4. I think i did hear that...

the car dissapeared...cannot be found...have u heard this?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

8. Here's a link to the missing car report

"When The Associated Press in Baghdad asked the U.S. military to see the vehicle on Saturday, the military said it didn't know where it was."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20050306/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage_reconstruction

[rocktivity]

28. Why assume the driver knows more than the passengers?

If their goal was the stop the the car, and the procedure for stopping a car is to fire at the engine block, I don't understand why the driver wasn't hit unless the car's engine in the back, like a Volkswagen bug.

:headbang:
rocknation

[pnutchuck]

3. Yes, and denies that he sped or ignored warning shots.

snip

The U.S. military says the car was speeding towards a checkpoint and ignored warning shots, an
explanation rejected by Italian government ministers and the driver of the car.

A senior U.S. official, White House counselor Dan Bartlett, said the shooting was a "horrific
accident."

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=5582014

[BrklynLiberal]

5. Yep. That's the story I heard too. All the shots hit the back seat. The

hero who was protecting the journalist got killed by a shot to his temple.
Pretty damn lucky shot!!!! If he wasn't there to protect her, guess who would have been killed....

[stray cat]

6. They are trained to shoot at the engine block to stop the car.

[candle_bright]

7. Isn't that what they did?

I thought the agent who was killed died from the accident resulting from the engine being shot out, not from a gunshot wound. Or maybe I need more coffee...

[Cocoa]

10. I thought he got shot

and I thought the engine block didn't get hit. oops.

Bush's first reaction "that was some terrible shooting..."

[theHandpuppet]

12. The agent died from a gunshot wound to the temple

I don't know where you heard he died in the "accident" but you are mistaken.

[candle_bright]

13. Okay

It appears I mixed up Ms. Sgrena's injuries with those of the agent.

[theHandpuppet]

16. No, not exactly

Ms Sgrena's injuries were described as "shrapnel" wounds to the shoulder and lung. Not the result of a "car accident".

[sundancekid]

9. yup, doesn't pass the smell test; also, more details to add to your point

1. Given that the car and passengers were 700 meters (766 yards, about 7-8 football field lengths)away from the airport, how could anyone on that road NOT have known AND MOST LIKELY SEEN/HEARD the Italian military plane at the Baghdad Airport that had arrived and was waiting there "at the READY" to fly all the Italians back to Rome?

2. The fatally-shot Italian secret service agent (Nicola Calipari), who successfully negotiated Sgrena's release, was a high-level member of SISMI, the Italian intelligence service, and his widow works for Berlusconi -- (SISMI had a big, black mark for its previous/dubious neo-con fame related to forged yellow-cake documents - those forgeries NOT connected to Calipari and his stellar reputation in any way).

Therefore, who could REALLY believe that this 007-type agent would NOT have cleared passage with all necessary American personnel, since American troops "own" the Baghdad airport security??? Everybody knows about the ESSENTIAL element of getting THRU the road to the airport, let alone to be able to BOARD the escape plane!!!!

(See also point #4 below in terms of the Italian government putting this much muscle into releasing a journalist who OPPOSED Berlusconi's position on the war -- remember that Calipari was talking on the cell phone with Berlusconi to inform him of the release and road passage when the car got showered with 300-400 firearm rounds).

3. The autopsy of Calipari WILL NEVER support the U.S. military version of the story of "fired into the engine bloc" after those other hand-waving, lighting, and firing-in-the-air procedures!

All newspapers in Rome carry the same autopsy findings by medical examiner, Dr. Giancarlo Umani Rochi -- translated, the papers quote & say that "Calipari was hit in the (back of the) head in the area of the parietal-occipital lobes by a single firearm shot which then exited a little above the left ear -- the shot was fired from right to left, and aimed slightly from above to below."

http://www.waiting.com/brainanatomy.html

http://www.repubblica.it/2005/c/sezioni/esteri/iraq45/autopsia/autopsia.html
ROMA - "Nicola Calipari è stato colpito al capo in regione parieto-occipitale con un colpo d'arma da fuoco che poi è uscito poco sopra l'orecchio sinistro. Un colpo da destra a sinistra, lievemente dall'alto in basso".

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2005/03_Marzo/06/autopsia.shtml

4. How convenient for the US press (and some BBC reports) to try to pass off Sgrena's newspaper as "communist" to denigrade her story and her too in the process! People on the ground know for a fact that most Europeans buy multiple daily papers, each with an open, WELL-KNOWN slant, so that the populace ends up way better informed from multiple viewpoints than we here in bushevik 'murika; the newspaper for which she writes, the "Manifesto," is definitely known as left-progressive, definitely opposed the war in Iraq, and definitely pressed Berlusconi to withdraw his Italian troops from there.

5. While many governments (the Italians included) officially deny ever paying ransom money for the release of kidnapped folks, most of us have reason to believe otherwise from "anonymous statements" that leak out here and there; here's an Australian newspaper report just 6 hours ago.

~snip~
Rome 'paid millions' for reporter's release in Iraq
March 7, 2005

The Italian government paid up to $US6 million ($A7.67 million) for the release of kidnapped journalist Giuliana Sgrena in Iraq, the Milan-based Corriere della Sera reported, citing a senior Iraqi politician.

Italian media also reported Italian state prosecutors had launched a manslaughter investigation into the fatal shooting by US troops of Italian agent Nicola Calipari which occurred as Sgrena was taken to Baghdad airport following her release.

The kidnappers had been loyalists of former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, who had increased their ransom demands from an initial $US1 million ($A1.28 million), Younademn Kana, Iraqi MP and ex-member of the former provisional governing council was quoted as saying. The ransom was handed over by Italian agents to mediators in Abu Dhabi, the newspaper La Repubblica wrote.

The ransom payment could also have led to "misunderstandings" between US troops and the Italian secret service as the US military was strictly against ransom payments, the Turin-based La Stampa said, alluding to the fatal shooting of Calipari.
~snip~

http://www.smh.com.au/news/After-Saddam/Rome-paid-millions-for-reporters-release-in-Iraq/2005/03/06/1110044262153.html?oneclick=true

on edit: spelling/language correction

[SodoffBush]

11. Who was the driver? An Italian?

Why wasn't the car given a military escort considering how dangerous that stretch to Baghdad Airport is claimed, by the US, to be?

How is it that Rumsfeld et al can enter Iraq without being fired upon, but a vehicle with Italian secret service is fired upon, Bonnie and Clyde style?

[sundancekid]

21. driver was Italian based on all reports where he and others were

screaming: "we are Italians" "we are Italians"

The snips below are from dailykos, and they are a fair translation from Sgrena's own article in today's Manifesto.

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/oggi/

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/6/61252/85294

~snip~
She says that almost immediately after getting in the the car that was to take her to the point of transfer, she was frightened by the sound of "a helicopter conducting surveillance at low altitude exactly above the zone in which we had stopped" in order to carry out the tranfer.
Contradicting the official US military and Bush administration's version of the events, she insists that:

the driver had communicated twice by cellphone to the embassy and once to the government in Italy that we were headed to the airport.

In her words:

We were less than a kilometer from the airport...when...a rain of fire and projectiles fell on us silencing forever the joyous voices of a few minutes earlier.
The driver began to shout that we were Italians, "we are Italian, we are Italians"....", Nicola Calipari threw himself on top of me in order to protect me, and immediately, I repeat immediately, I heard his last breath while he died on top of me. But I had a lightning-flash of illumination, my mind went back immediatly to some words that my kidnappers had said to me. They declared to me that they felt deeply commited to my liberation, but that I must be careful "because their are the Americans who don't want you return alive." Back then, when they originally told me this, I dismissed those words as superflous and ideological. In that moment, for me, they were risking to acquire the flavor of the most bitter of truths.The rest of the story I cannot yet divulge.
~snip~
===================================

On your other point:

I have NO CLUE yet as to why there was NO military escort by US -- maybe we were REALLY pissed off about that ransom $$$, maybe the Italians did not want to attract extra attention to themselves and their hostage release; but, I sure am (speculating) thinking LIHOP/MIHOP on the massive shooting rounds that seemed totally unwarrented.

[SodoffBush]

24. Surveillance helicopter?

First time I've heard of it, and patrolling one of the most dangerous roads in Iraq? Why?

[FreedomAngel82]

46. Strange indeed

Either that or they just don't tell.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. I agree

I smell a pretty fishy story. Wonder if Karl Rove was involved.

[FreedomAngel82]

47. Nothing would surprise me personally

If not then Rove he at least had a part in it. Like as an advisor.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Well the freepers aren't

jumping all over this one. I think they are waiting for us to jump on it. So I am holding off until I have better information. I am with you on this one. It smells like Rove.

[magellan]

45. Curious how they managed to hit Calipari in the BACK of the head

All newspapers in Rome carry the same autopsy findings by medical examiner, Dr. Giancarlo Umani Rochi -- translated, the papers quote & say that "Calipari was hit in the (back of the) head in the area of the parietal-occipital lobes by a single firearm shot which then exited a little above the left ear -- the shot was fired from right to left, and aimed slightly from above to below."

Standard to shoot out the engine block and yet somehow they managed to hit Calipari in the back of the head. We don't know what kind of car they were in, but it's quite unusual to find the engine block in the back of a car.

[chlamor]

14. Car was moving at 25-30 mph

The automobile was moving between 50-60km/h which is 25-30 mph. The most widely known captive in the world is released in custody of her countries "secret service" the slow moving vehicle again, 25-30mph, is 700 meters, less than half a mile from the heavily guarded and monitored airport with a plane from her country waiting, ALL PLANES AT THAT AIRPORT ARE LOGGED IN TO THE SECURITY APPARATUS OF THE US AND DOCUMENTED, and accidently US troops open fire on this "runaway" vehicle. Seems unlikely to put it mildly.


GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 14 January 2005

Ten thousand Iraqis in US and British prisons
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 29 December 2004

Two thousand victims in Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena, Iraq
il manifesto 26 November 2004

Napalm Raid on Falluja?
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 23 November 2004

The death throes of Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena
ilmanifesto 13 November 2004

“Stop the massacre”
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 12 November 2004

Bombs and tanks, hell breaks in Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 09 November 2004

Interview with an Iraki woman tortured at Abu Graib.
Giuliana Sgrena, our correspondent in Baghdad
il manifesto 01 July 2004

“Imminent attack” against Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 06 November 2004

GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 06 November 2004

Flight from a Falluja massacred by bombs
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifestp 21 October 2004

UN: US crimes in Iraq
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 05 June 2004

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/

[Cuban_Liberal]

15. And the speed of 25-30 m.p.h. can be proven how?

:shrug:

[tkmorris]

17. So you suspect Sgrena is lying then?

Interesting. Why would she do that?

[Cuban_Liberal]

18. Is that the question I asked?

We have two versions of the story regarding the car's speed. The question remains one of proving who is telling the truth, and that was my question.

[tkmorris]

26. In a way, yes it is what you asked

You are correct, there are two versions of the vehicles speed. The version suggesting the higher speed however is already full of holes and is being given by parties who have a motive for and a history of lying about such things.

The other version is being given by the journalist Sgrena. Her story has so far held up under scrutiny and she does not appear to have any real reason to make up a story, unless one surmises that it is mere sensationalism to sell an anti-war perspective.

It seems natural to me that while keeping an open mind one of these versions has the feel of truth while the otther does not. Perhaps I am biased but I don't think so. You however, seem to be going out of your way to question Sgrena's story. Perhaps this is all out of context, maybe in other threads you question the US military's version as well, I don't know.

Leaving that aside, perhaps it would be helpful if the those who shot at the vehicle could be brought forward to tell their story directly. I think that would be quite useful, and if the US forces want to clear themselves it would demonstrate a refreshing openness and honesty.

[Cuban_Liberal]

30. Actually, I don't believe either version 100%.

I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in betwwen her version and the Army's.

[neweurope]

50. So far you seem only to be questioning Sgrenas version, though.

I have not heard you question the Army's yet.

-------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[chlamor]

19. "We were driving slowly, about 40-50km/h (25-30 mph)."

According to Italy's leading daily Corriere della Sera, the driver, an unidentified Italian agent, said: "We were driving slowly, about 40-50 km/h (25-30 mph)."

<snip>

Although Italy has denied paying kidnappers in past hostage releases, Agriculture Minister Gianni Alemanno told the Corriere that "very probably" a large ransom had been paid in this case.

Italian newspapers have speculated that anything up to 8 million euros ($10 million) may have been paid.

   www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyI...

[Cuban_Liberal]

22. That's exactly what I'm talking about: "He said, she said"

She says the weren't, but the Army says they were; how do we prove who is telling the truth? What evidence have we that proves it?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

23. As far as evidence goes

The car would be a nice place to start. If they can find it.

At least then we would know if the engine block was shot at for most of the rounds. Sadly, the car's turned up missing.

[babylonsister]

34. Ironic, isn't it. A long, empty stretch

of highway, and they 'lost' the car? :mad:

[Laurab]

37. Maybe they took it somewhere

to be sure it was shot in the engine block, and all the right places. Then it will be "found". Or maybe there was no way they could make the car's damages fit their story, in which case it will remain "missing".

[Lone_Star_Dem]

44. Excluding the victims testimony and wounds

The only hard evidence is the car. I find it odd that the car was misplaced. If they can't find the car we are left with nothing more than one disrupted phone conversation and the victims/witness' accounts of what happened. It's convenient.

[FreedomAngel82]

48. They could easily

do something to change her story. Fire a bullet in another place of the car and go "see, she didn't mention that so she's lying."

[Frederik]

25. The question is...

Who would have a reason to lie? May I suggest the US military? I would certainly believe the journalist rather than the Pentagon.

[bpilgrim]

31. who has the most credibility?

not our side i'm afraid.

peace

[sharman]

52. Two reasons

First, it had been raining, so the car was driving slowly for the weather.

Second, the car had slowed for a curve in the road.

To me, what shows the US is obviously lying is that there were two secret service agents in the car (including the driver). If the US troops had really signalled for the car to stop, is it at all credible that sophisticated, English-speaking, secret service agents would not only have failed to respond to such commands, but would actually have been speeding towards a checkpoint?

It may be that the incident was an accident, and the lying is a coverup of gross negligence, rather than attempted assassination. But it's for sure they are lying. (And doesn't it make you wonder the circumstances behind the countless--and uncounted--Iraqi civilians shot as suspected suicide bombers? I mean, who's going to hear their story, let alone believe them over the official US military account?)

[Karenina]

35. I recall reading in several accounts

that it was RAINING. Road conditions, anyone? :shrug:

[fooj]

20. The mere fact that anyone survived 300-400 rounds is amazing.

The US could have EASILY taken out the driver...apparently they CHOSE not to.

[RoeBear]

27. So who do we think was the target

of this shoot out? I can only assume it was the reporter and what could have stopped them from finishing her off? If that was their goal.

[ananda]

29. truth

I believe that Sgrena is telling the truth. She was an honest, antiwar journalist and the USA troops were trying to eliminate her.

The reason I believe her... Berlusconi is a Bushite, prowar, owner of all the Italian media... in other words, she was even writing outside the interests of her own government.

Berlusconi has no choice but to back her. Otherwise, he loses 99% of his own people. Oh.. did I also say that even the Pope is a Catholic fascist? Can't stand the man. I just have to put that in whenever I write about Italian politics.

Sue

[bpilgrim]

32. "what could have stopped them from finishing her off" getting caught

taking out journalist would not look good in the all important perception management dept.

peace

[babylonsister]

33. I think if we cared about 'perception' we wouldn't

be there in the first place.

[bpilgrim]

36. we care a great deal about perception

but much more about the OIL.

peace

[Binka]

53. I Think BOTH Of Them Were Targets

Not going to get into my theory right now but Calipari was an INTERESTING and POWERFUL figure here to say the least and there are many in Italy that are quite relieved he is gone.

Think Mafia. Think Heroin. Think Immigration. I'm working on this but taking a break to watch his funeral.

RIP Nicola. He was truly a great man.

[FreedomAngel82]

49. Maybe

it was a threat not to talk about whatever she knew? So they let her go and she was thinking she could blab about what she knows but they fired the shots? But were they expecting the other guy to save her?

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[daleo]

40. He's alive

However, according to the daily Corriere della Sera, the Italian intelligence officer who drove the car and who survived the attack insisted they were travelling at just 40 to 50 kilometres an hour (25 to 30 mph).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1432041,00.html?gusrc=rss

[FreedomAngel82]

41. What is the US story?

I'm not sure if I've read yet. Can you tell?

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

43. Ummmm......

We're figuring out.....errr.....I mean thinking up......errrrr.....We'll have a statement for you on Monday.

[NightOwwl]

54. wrong thread n/t

[NewYorkerfromMass]

55. Makes sense to me. eom