Would Hillary haters prefer some right wing nut case as president?

[quinnox]

Answer this one! The choice is between Hillary Clinton and a Bush clone right wingnut republican.

[NMDemDist2]

1. there are Hillary haters here?

funny, I haven't noticed any

[donheld]

13. Funny you need to pay closer attention

I will vote Hillary if there's nobody better.

[Warpy]

16. Sure, but a whole lot of people won't

and therein lies the problem. If the DLC still has enough power to cram her down the party throat, another right wing loser WILL be elected.

Too many weenie men and ladies against women out there have a visceral and illogical hatred of Hillary Clinton.

Plus, she is less than appealing to progressives who are sick to death of DLC candidates pandering to yuppies and ignoring the party base.

If you want another right wing jackass like Jebbie Bush in 2008, keep backing Hillary Clinton. It's how to get your fondest wish.

[donheld]

26. And voting green will help this how?

:shrug:

[Warpy]

29. You said that, I didn't.

Nice strawman. You made him, you knock him down.

[loro mi dicevano]

2. Nope, but the lesser of two evils is still evil. I won't vote for Hillary;

but that doesn't mean I'd prefer a hardcore rightwinger.

[Frances]

10. Gee--that's exactly how we got

Reagan as governor of California. From there he went to the White House. And from being vice-president, the first Bush went to the presidency. And now his son W sits in the White House.

With your help, Jeb could be sitting in the White House in 2008!

[loro mi dicevano]

14. Oh, get off it. Y'all here complain about Democrats not having any spine,

and then when election time comes, you say, "Oh, what the hell," and vote for someone who doesn't reflect your values.

Blame it on the BUSH voters for getting him into the WH, not the Nader/Cobb voters. That doesn't make sense.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. Neither. I'll be voting Green.

[NickofTime]

7. I'm Voting Green if Hillary Runs, Too

[Frances]

8. That is great news--

for Republicans!

[Frances]

21. I am curious about why greens post at

Democratic Underground. Why isn't there a Green Underground?

[me b zola]

28. I'm a lifelong Dem

who would vote green if the DLC overpowers the DNC again. As long as we continue to give our votes for the Democratic party when they are offering us repub-lite, the DNC will allow this practice to continue. I love & respect Dr.Dean, but he needs to understand this.

Hey DLC, start your own party and give us back our Democratic party!!

[eallen]

38. I'm a civil libertarian you likely would oppose. But at this point....

My views likely are more conservative than most here, conservative in an old-fashioned sense, rather than the new one. But I'll ally with whomever, however is required, to defeat the GOP. We have to preserve American freedoms and democracy, before we can reasonably bicker over policy.

[me b zola]

69. I'm a bit of a civil libertarian myself

But the core vales of the Democratic party are much more important than the smaller ways in which I differ. Effectively we have a single party government, which is not healthy to our Democracy. To overthrow the neocons with a repub (who claims to be a Democrat)
is not in the best interest of the Democratic Party nor the Nation.

[NoPasaran]

60. I get it, T_y_L

If I had a dollar for every time you've proclaimed you're voting Green, I'd be rich enough to be voting Republican.

[Maccagirl]

4. Most Hillary haters are right-wing nutcases

so my guess would be...yes. The anti-Hillary posts you see on DU are based on anger and disappointment-not hate.

[David Dunham]

5. I'd prefer Hillary, but I think she'd lose even to a rightwing Repug

Hillary is a great person, but not a general election winner.

[HereSince1628]

6. Does the phrase false dichotomy mean anything?

[Warren Stupidity]

39. it isn't really a false dichotomy

It is a hypothetical choice between two major party candidates, one Mrs. Clinton, the other an unnamed rethuglican. It is a false dichotomy if you believe that third party candidates represent a real choice in de facto two party system, but I don't think that is relevant here.

A false dichotomy presents two choices as the only two possible choices when in fact they are not the only choices, as in "support bush or you support bin laden". Posing a hypothetical is not a false choice.

I would of course support Hillary over just about any Republican I can think of, even if she is near the bottom of my list of preferred Democratic candidates.

[Stephanie]

9. No we'd just prefer not to lose again

I don't want to prove anything this time, I just want to wrest power from the fascists, whatever it takes.

[Frances]

15. There are a lot of people who post here

who do not agree with you.

I am not one of them.

I personally believe that if the idealists had stopped talking semantics and organized against Stalin right after 1917, they would not have wound up in the gulag.

[DerekG]

11. Either way, we vote for the War Party

I would hope that Kerry's capitulation finally laid to rest that "lesser of two evil" dictum that has hindered progress for God-knows-how-long.

[Lizzie Borden]

12. I'm not a big Hillary fan however,

I would never support a republican against her. Any republican. That's just where I draw the line.

[Deja Q]

17. They chose * in 2004 instead of Kerry. Many repubs of merit that I know

did not like Kerry at all. (yes, some repubs are not bad people and are people of good character but otherwise tasted the k00l-aid. (on edit - many are vile, but I know two who are VERY left-leaning despite their political orientation.))

They hate what has happened in this country and many hate walmart.

But they voted *.

I think that's more relevant of addressing than this sexist claptrap. Why vote * instead?

A local morning DJ was clearly hating *'s policies, especially the FCC stuff. But he voted *, claiming Kerry would raise taxes on all of us by "a million percent." I did not make that quote up either, he said it. (Bush is raising taxes on us, but dropping them for wealthy asswipes like that DJ.)

How do we get the good repubs who don't like *'s policies to vote non-repub in 2006 and 2008?

We don't.

We're stuck on party lines.

Everybody too fucking chicken to think or vote outside the box.

So screw it all. Our system is what people want. And we're going to get it, it seems.

[Samantha]

18. I am looking at Lincoln Chaffee

(not sure if I spelled his name correctly)

I have been casually wondering these last two months if he's considering stepping out. I have never voted for a Republican for president, but I would seriously consider voting for him. I will not support Hillary.

Lincoln Chaffee did not vote for Bush.* His priorities are my priorities. He's more to the left than many of our DLC candidates.

If Chaffee steps out, I just might vote for him. I had my hopes pinned on Gore; if not Gore, Dean. Looks like both of them are out; I am voting on the issues, not the party this time. Other than that, I see no other republicans I would vote for. If Hillary runs, and her opponent is someone like McCain or Frist, I'll write someone in.

[Smarmie Doofus]

19. It's hard to "hate" Hillary. And if that's the choice we'll have,...

someone open the window so I can jump out now.

She's a submediocre centrist ( i.e in this climate; far right wing by historical standards) politician of painfully limited talents. Her speaking style, if one can call it a "style" , induces squirming and distraction, followed closely by unconsciousness.

She avoids controversy and political risk by issuing trite, vacuous statements in an era where people need to be shaken, even shocked, from their political complacency.

She will never be nominated by the demos; and if she were to be, she'll be crushed in a general election. Why settle for a pale imitation when you can buy the real deal?

[cry baby]

20. I will vote for anyone that the dems put up against the right-wing

repubs. I would rather not see Hillary run, and may not support her in the primaries, but I sure the hell will vote for her if she is the nominee against facism.

[bush_is_wacko]

22. I'm not sure there is a difference!

That's how much I dislike her. Anymore silly questions?

Hillary cannot win. Give it up. Too many people know too much about who she really is to let it go! Not gonna happen, no way, no how!

That is unless she reveals all and gives us all a good reason why she has done some of the things she has done and why her name keeps coming up as misleading us all.

What do ya say Hillary? Why are you so damn deceiving? What are you hiding?

[mistertrickster]

23. It's called the "either/or" fallacy. Forcing a complex question into only

two choices.

I guess I am a "Hillary hater" by your definition--I don't think she's populist enough to lead a real Democratic revival in this country. Also, I'm still steamed that Bill didn't resign after he lied--yes, effing lied--about "I did not have sex" and hurt beyond redemption Al Gore's chances to be our president right now.

Barbara Boxer, Barak Obama, Kuchinich . . . a lot of people would be better than ole Hillary, IMHO.

Also, can you think of a Democrat who has higher negatives than she does?

[WillyT]

24. Weren't You For Lieberman Over A Rightwing Nut Job ???

Just asking.

:shrug:

[hansolsen]

25. I will oppose Hillary in Dem primaries, and I will never again vote ABB or

any similar compromise of my principles. John Kerry did not represent my political views. I opposed him in the primaries, and I despised the campaign he ran in the general election. I ended up voting for him anyway, and that vote feels wrong today. I was not proud to cast it. I promised myself I would never let that happen again.

Many a time I raised objections to Kerry's cramped campaign strategy in this forum, only to be flamed by Kerry supports and ABB advocates. I will not go down that road again with Hillary -- it was too painful.

[VelvetMonkeyWrench]

30. Hillary isn't Kerry

Hillary is a much sharper craftier politician than John Kerry, and won't make all the amateur campaign mistakes he did.

She's "remaking" her public image into something the general public might accept right now.

The worry I have is are there any aud/vid tapes out there of here doing the old "dragon lady" shtick she was often accused of while residing at 1600. If something like that is waiting in the wings somewhere hidden in the vest pocket of some disgruntled staffer, it could erase a lot of image reengineering pretty quick.

[hansolsen]

34. The Repubs have so much oppo research on her they have to rent a

semi truck just to store the old videos. Rove is salivating at the prospect. That's my bet.

[mondo joe]

40. Sorry but Hillary isn't very crafty at all.

She saw a good opportunity in NY and took it - and I congratulate her on it.

But her people skills have ALWAYS been lacking and she has never had much grasp at winning people over in the BROAD sense.

[VelvetMonkeyWrench]

44. I disagree

Upstate NY, which was traditionally a red area except for Albany, is willing to tolerate her now. She's undergone a metamorphosis of "broadening" similar to Schumer's when he went from being a rep to a senator.

There was a lot fo intial scepticism about her, but an undeniable transformation, real or simply opportunistic (take your pick) has happened and is ongoing. She is very much in the process of making herself widely "marketable" on a national level.

The only problem, as I said, will past performances surface that torpedo her. I really don't care if the transformation is possibly fake - I expect that in politicians ;-> If the performance is good enough to pass is all that matters :P

[newyawker99]

53. Hi VelvetMonkeyWrench!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[ryan_cats]

27. Bush clone or not

Bush clone (opponent) or not I think Hillary will make an awesome co-president like before when Bill was co-president. I look forward to another great economy with job growth and peace like in the 90's.

[eallen]

31. No. Which is why we'd rather she wasn't nominated, lest the RWNC win.

[Elidor]

32. Gee, What a choice.

How about a choice between Hillary and a progressive democrat? Or is that too much to ask?

[SF Bay Area Dem]

33. Hillary will make a fine president...

If she runs... and beats Senator Kerry in the primaries then more power to her! A VP slot perhaps?

[hansolsen]

35. Will she support NAFTA, cuts in capital gains taxes, and other high

priority agenda items straight from corporate America, just like Bill did??

Will she have some intern camped out under her desk in the Oval Office, just to get back at Bill, and prove that feminists have finally arrived??

I just going by the Clinton track record. What makes you think she would be a "good" president??

[roguevalley]

36. oh please. you presume she gets the nod.

[LiberallyInclined]

37. I'd vote third party...probably green.

i will NOT vote for Hillary Clinton for president.

Ever.

[samplegirl]

41. I think she pretty much showed her color

by not voting against the bankruptcy law. She's lost my respect
and vote.

[samplegirl]

42. I really hope she is not the best we can come up with.

she needed to put her vote where her mouth is.

[MostPeopleDO]

43. Whats wrong with Hil?

Admittingly, I don't know anything about her voting record as a senator. But she seems to be a very popular senator and I like her ideaologies.
Can someone explain why people have a problem with her?
Honest question, just so I can know more about the subject.
Because as of now, I'd love to vote for Hillary.

[IrateCitizen]

59. You don't know much about her but you like her ideologies???

Yeah, no cognitive dissonance here! :eyes:

If you don't know much about her record as a Senator, then how in the hell do you know whether or not you like her ideologies?

She's my Senator, and I can't stand her. I consider her to be a corporatist centrist and a brazed opportunist without any real principles. That being said, she's still better than Al D'Amato or Rick Lazio.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mistertrickster]

63. We usually reserve that word for right-wingers around here, Bub.

Save it for the people you really disagree with.

[donheld]

45. Fine, i'm gonna vote for Madonna in 2008

:crazy:

[OneBlueSky]

46. bottom line for me is SHE CAN'T WIN!!! . . .

if the Democrats are stupid enough to nominate Hillary, then they deserve to lose again . . . and I'll be voting third party just to help them along . . . we'll have a right wing nut case no matter how I vote, because the American people WILL NOT elect Hillary Clinton president . . . and that's a fact, Jack . . .

[applegrove]

47. Hillary can tip the Rove Canoe!!

[KG]

48. haven't the clintons and the DLC done enough damage to the dem party?

if the dem party is dellusional enough to run hillary clinton for prez, they deserve to get their butts beat.

[deacon]

49. I don't see the hate either, but will write in Boxer before i would

ever vote for her. She is way too compliant. No, no way I will vote for her for president.

[fujiyama]

50. Can't say I'm a huge fan of her

and I won't be voting for her in the primaries, but against a repuke, of course she'd get my vote though I have little confidence she'd win in a general election.

That's probably how many here feel.

[Andy_Stephenson]

51. 6 is one half

dozen of another.

[ComerPerro]

52. It doesn't matter. If she runs, the Repubs will win

They might not even have to resort to fraud either. There are that many people who absolutely hate everything about her.

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. I'd put all my efforts into viable third party.

:hi:

One that espouses true Democratic values and stands strong against pressure.

[leesa]

55. Stupid question. Why is that the choice?

So we have to have GOP-lite or hard core GOP and nothing else, huh? I guess you lack imagination.

[Snivi Yllom]

56. judging by Hillary's recent and continued move to the right

There might not be a bit of difference by 2008.

[IrateCitizen]

57. Yeah, like this isn't a loaded question!

Flamebait.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. As if those would be the only possible two choices?

:eyes:

I'm certainly going to support someone other than Hillary in the primaries for '08 unless she stops playing so nicey-nice with the Republicans.

If successful, I won't have to make the choice of Hillary or Rightwing Nutjob. I'll be able to make the choice of Real True Blue Populist Democrat With Spine vs. Righwing Nutjob.

[guinivere]

64. I'm not a Hillary hater,

I just don't think that she can win. Way too much baggage.

The campaign would be a blood bath for both sides. Hillary would not stand idly by and let the repuke run her over like Kerry did.

The Dems will lose a lot of votes if they continue with the new Dem-lite agenda/attitude.

[patcox2]

65. Nominating Hillary best way to guarantee right wing nutcase wins.

I would prefer Hillary to a right wing nutcase, of course, I would always prefer a sellout DLC-er to a real republican. But the thing is, its not about what partisan left wing democrats think, its what the vast numbers of people in the middle think. And nominating Hillary, a polarizing figure so easily demonized, would guarantee, absolutely guarantee, a republican victory. They could dig up whatever is left of Hitler's corpse and run that, and it would win over Hillary. She is a scary "feminazi" to the right wingers, and she is a sellout repub-light to the left wingers, and her recent run to the middle and cozying up to the republicans and anti-abortion crowd might sound like brilliant strategy, but it will get her nowhere with the masses of ill-informed swing voters. She has no constitutency at all, none, except deluded folks who actually think she and Bill were democrats.

[seabeyond]

66. i would prefer a democratic president that didnt sell us out on

something so big as nafta without rules, boundaries and balance. something that effects the livelihood of our fellow citizens, to feed and clothe their family allow them the ability and opportunity for the pursuit of happiness

i dont think that is too much to ask for in a nominee

[Egalitariat]

67. Hillary as our nominee would guarantee a wingnut president

If we nominate Hillary, we hand the RW a wild card that says this is their opportunity to run the furthest right, most extreme candidate they can find and he will win.

The PNAC boys would flip out if given such an opportunity.

[Nye Bevan]

68. Sometimes the answer appears to be "yes"

In a GD Politics thread yesterday one poster responded to me that if Hillary so much as RUNS for president (let alone if she gets the nomination), he/she is moving to Canada!

(He/She is presumably quite happy to stay in the USA under the Bush regime!)

:wtf:

[UdoKier]

70. I'm sure the vast majority of us would vote for her if she were nominated

But by the same token, a significant majority would NOT support her getting the nomination. She is extremely divisive, not remotely progressive, and would turn out right-wing nutjobs to vote against her in the general election in record numbers.

She has none of her husband's charisma, and almost as much baggage.

So what is the point of your question anyway?

It's like asking "Where would you rather eat, a shit sandwich or some bitter-tasting fruit that's extinct anyway?"

[Donna Zen]

71. An excellent question:

Because for all of the Hillary supporters, you can rest easy; she will win the primary. Ickes and Hillary have been salting the Democratic waters for years, and they have the bucks to do it. When Hillary officially announces, let the fundraisers begin! Already Hillary is making moves on the grassroots with tempting little e-mails about this issue and that issue, all new to her concerns, to expand her data base.

She will have all the air time, all the money, and most importantly a huge inside party machine. Why do you think Ickes, the man who runs HillPAC, now runs the ACT?

So that's that.

If Hillary has much of a core beyond her own ambitions, it is center to center-right. BTW, she has always stood up for women and children, I'll grant her that. Unless of course they live in Iraq; at which point, the next election and proper posturing takes precedence.

Now someone at DU explained to me why I'm a bad "woman" if I don't support Hillary.

For those of you who believe that Hillary will lose the General Election, time will prove you right. The republican base is now larger than the Democratic base, and to win is to expand the base. Hillary not only can't do that, no matter how much she embraces "Operation Rescue" she will actually shrink the base.

I voted for Kerry, took a second job to send him all of the money, and cast an ABB vote. I don't know if I can do that again; I don't think I want to; and I don't think four years is a long enough time to change my mind.

[Joe Chi Minh]

72. Who said that's the choice!

Are you nuts? Very few people here dislike Hilary. In fact, she's very well liked. Bt what on earth got it into your head, though, that she would make a better candidate than your current president Kerry, who actually won in a major landslide.

What's more John Kerry enumerated the radical initiatives in terms of a "New Deal" for the American people. Nothing less would suffice now. And he is almost certainly the only person who could bring it about.

What is it about that you don't understand? You sound like an unusually transparent "sleeper" troll, seeking to "divide and rule". It won't wash with DUers, but what it will do is harden their resolve. Pandorah's Box again. Neocons never learn.

[Cuban_Liberal]

73. It's not a choice.

If Hillary is our nominee, we WILL get a right wingnut Republican.