Who do YOU trust anymore?

[itzamirakul]

Do you trust ANYONE in POLITICS(regardless of Party) or in the MSM anymore?

To me, every single one of them, even those I used to trust implicitly, have ZERO CREDIBILITY with me now. I take absolutely everything I see or hear with a big grain of salt.

1. Who do you trust in Politics?

2. Who do you trust in the MSM?

[LynnTheDem]

1. No one. Never did. It's not patriotic to blindly trust any politician.

That's why it's WE the PEOPLE, BY the PEOPLE.

It's why we're not a Kingdom (although bush doesn't know this).

[itzamirakul]

5. I'm from another age, like from the time that people trusted

Franklin D. Roosevelt or even as late as John Kennedy.

We trusted that these people had the best for the entire American people at heart and not just what was best for their friends and special interests.

We trusted Walter Cronkite and MacNeil-Lehrer

But, no more.......

[morgan2]

55. I agree

never trust a politician. Thats not to say you can't be hopeful and excited a politician will do some good,, but you should always been vigilant.

[IrateCitizen]

2. That's a good strategy.

When I've been asked in interviews recently if I thought that the anti-war movement's embrace of Kerry was a good strategy, I say no. Not because we should have wanted Bush to be re-elected, but rather because the anti-war movement should not have moved to embrace any single candidate. Rather, we should have called for a candidate to embrace US.

Personally, I have much more faith in mass popular movements, despite all their problems and shortcomings, than I do any individual politicians.

[raccoon]

52. I strongly agree

because most, if not all, politicians are bought and paid for.

No matter what they say pre-election, they have to pay back their contributors after they get in office.

Those contributors aren't ordinary working people.

I don't think any President, Congress, whatever, does anything just because it is the will of the people (although on paper that's what they're supposed to do). Only when the people hold their feet to the fire do the politicians do the will of the people.

[Warpy]

3. Nobody in the MSM

It's been taken over by photogenic twits who skated through college on purchased term papers and essays and it shows. Until the MSM starts hiring a few hardscrabble blue collar types who know how to WORK, they'll be utterly useless. Yuppies are not good for much of anything.

Kennedy is trustworthy to a point, as are Kucinich, Boxer, Kerry, Corzine, and a few others. No DLC politician is worth the oxygen it takes to keep him/her alive. They'll sell us all out in a heartbeat.

[bobthedrummer]

15. Nobody in US MSM, I rely on UK and Reuters. I do read NYT and WP.

But I'm a skeptic.

[earth mom]

4. I'm sure I'll get slammed for this...

but just about the only person I trust these days is Michael Moore.

[Done]

22. Slam!

I agree with you. :hi:

[earth mom]

26. Great minds think alike!

:hi:

[FreedomAngel82]

35. Oh yes

Can't forget him. Of course, just to be safe, I always double check things on my own. That's what I did with F911 and did other research (of course he was right).

[Mary in KC]

6. I don't trust anyone.

Kind of a sad state of affairs, isn't it.

Its like the Anthrax story. Is it true? Will we ever know?

Or how about the Sadaam story where he was really captured the day before. It made sense. But then it disappeared. Was it true? Will we ever know?

I'm thinking of investing in a really good crystal ball.

[itzamirakul]

20. Welcome to DU, Mary in KC...

I agree, a crystal ball seems to be more reliable than anything that comes out of the polit/media mouths.

Pretty boys and girls with plastic surgery faces and bodies. A step away from bionic

[Frances]

7. It sounds to me as though you are saying

that there is no difference between Bush/Republicans and Democrats.

If that is the case, it follows logically that you are enabling Bush's policies.

The only thing standing between the U.S. as a democracy and as a fascist state is the knowledge that if people wake up and vote enough Dems into Congress, then the Dems will have a majority and can hold hearings on the many illegal things that Bush has done.

Right now the Repubs are in the majority and can prevent hearings that would hold Bush accountable. If people decide that they will not get involved in politics because they don't trust any politician, then Bush and his ilk will have no opponents.

It would be a huge favor to democracy if everyone on DU concentrated on positve ways to save our country.

[IrateCitizen]

12. Sorry, but I put little faith in Democratic elected officials...

Especially since they're swimming against the tide of groupthink so prevalent in our society. And in many instances (see Sens Clinton, Biden, Lieberman, et. al.) they are swimming WITH the tide of groupthink.

The only way we'll be saved from fascism is from the bottom up. There are too many Dems out there right now who willingly go along with enabling it.

[Frances]

14. OK

What exactly do you propose that the bottom do?

[IrateCitizen]

16. First, start talking to each other

That's the first step toward finding common ground. Another positive step is shutting off the TV more often and just interacting with other people.

The next step is organizing amongst themselves. Developing solutions to the local problems they face, and becoming engaged on greater issues as well.

But at all times, the kind of faith in "leaders" that you professed earlier is a dangerous thing. Most "leaders" are only interested in holding on to power, and will do very little to actually change things, because that would risk their job. Personally, I think that the Great Depression, if we had NOT had someone like FDR to appeal to people's better natures, could have turned easily toward fascism in the US. Since leaders like FDR are hardly prevalent (I can't think of a single person to compare right now), it's more important that we place our faith in OURSELVES rather than seeking saviors to fix everything for us.

[Frances]

23. I agree about FDR

If FDR had not been president, I think someone like Huey Long would have taken us down the fascist road.

However, FDR would have gotten nowhere if he had not belonged to a political party.

Are you really saying that all I can do to stop Bush is turn off the TV and start interacting with other people? First, I don't have cable or Dish so I CAN'T watch TV even if I wanted to. The only radio station I listen to is in Santa Cruz (We're here when you are ready to come home, America). And I do talk to other people about politics.

I have organized small groups of friends who feel as I do.

And that's all that you propose I do?

[IrateCitizen]

24. What are you seeking? Instant gratification???

Are you expecting things to just turn completely around with the pulling of a lever in the ballot box?

That's one of the huge problems in this country today. People have become so used to instant gratification that they lose sight of how SLOWLY things really change. Abolition of slavery didn't take place in the 4 years of the Civil War -- it could be traced all the way back to the abolitionists of the founding of the United States. Civil Rights wasn't achieved in the 1960's -- it could be traced all the way back to the end of the Civil War 100 years earlier.

You've organized friends who feel the same as you do. That's a good first step. Have you looked to link up with, or form, any broader groups? Have you gotten involved on local, state and national issues? You don't have to get involved in every issue out there -- just take on what you can handle. And more importantly, don't hesitate to support OTHER issue groups who dovetail with your goals, especially groups outside of what you normally encounter.

I'm not discounting the role of electoral politics. I'm just saying that expecting it solely to change things is very unwise. FDR actually adopted many of the policies promoted by the socialists for some time. The Nation recently ran a few good articles on the Rainbow Coalition of the 1980's, I would suggest you peruse their archives to look them up. They will likely answer many of your questions better than I can.

[Frances]

27. Martin Luther King Jr.

in his famous essay "Letter from a Birmningham Jail" said that time is neutral.

In other words, things don't get better just because time passes. In fact, things can get worse. We had a Civil War and then Reconstruction. Then there was a reaction against Reconstruction and African Americans became second class citizens legally. (The Jim Crow laws were legal.)

Then we had the Civil Rights Act. The Republicans capitalized on the reaction against that act, especially in the South. With the Republicans in control of all 3 branches of government, the U.S. is becoming more and more like the Alabama I grew up in during the 40s and 50s.

Is every Democrat a saint? No.

Does every Democrat vote the way I want on every vote? No.

Do I get very involved in primaries so that I can try to elect the best Democrat? Yes.

Does the Democratic party as a whole protect civil rights here and abroad better than the Republican party as a whole? (There is a heartbreaking thread on murders in Guatamala during the Reagan years) Yes

If the Dem party were in the majority in Congress, would it be possible to block some of the worst of the Republican nominees to the Supreme Court and to other positions of power? Yes

If I join with you in dissing all politicians, is it more or less likely that the Republicans will maintain control of Congress? More likely

That being the case, am I wrong for supporting the Democratic party at the local, state, and national level? I don't think so.

[IrateCitizen]

28. You didn't say your "supported" the Democratic Party before...

You said that if we simply elected Democrats, that they would roll back all of the excesses of the Bush years and make everything right again. You didn't characterize them as just one part of the puzzle, you characterized them as saviors.

The only thing standing between the U.S. as a democracy and as a fascist state is the knowledge that if people wake up and vote enough Dems into Congress, then the Dems will have a majority and can hold hearings on the many illegal things that Bush has done.

You mean like they held Nixon's gang to account? Reagan? Poppy Bush?

That's my issue. They're not saviors. Most of them are egomaniacs first and foremost, and got involved in politics in order to further their desire for self-aggrandizement. That isn't necessarily a pure negative in itself, but it's important to remember the primary motivation of most big-time pols. And, expecting them to upset the apple cart is going to result in a long, long wait. Their purpose is maintaining the status quo, not upsetting it.

Do we need sympathetic politicians to advance our goals? Certainly! Will those politicians advance our goals out of the goodness of their hearts? Hardly.

BTW, Martin also said something along the lines of "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." In that, King was acknowledging that struggles take a long time, but if you work toward it, eventually things DO get better.

[Frances]

29. The Dems did hold

hearings on Nixon, and he resigned as a result. Remember?

And the Dems did hold hearings on Iran-Contra. Remember?

If the Dems were in control now, would there be hearings on Haliburton's waste in Iraq? Would there be hearings on Halliburton's doings in Iran? Yes

Would those hearings turn sentiment against the war more than anything you and I can possibly do as individuals? I think so.

Did I specifically say that Dems were not saints? Yes

Did our founding fathers think that every single politician could be corrupted by power? ABSOLUTELY

How did our founding fathers hope to keep our country free? By setting up a system of checks and balances

Do we subvert the founding fathers' dream of keeping us free when we demand that each and every politician be as pure as we imagine ourselves to be? YES

Has there ever been or will there ever be a government with its leaders completely pure? NO but the Taliban thought that it was

[IrateCitizen]

31. Nixon's transgressions were so odious that Repubs joined in...

That's when the dam really broke on him. But Nixon himself didn't serve a day in prison -- he was pardoned by Ford.

How many people are currently languishing in prison due to Iran-Contra? How many actually served any significant time? Hell, many of those old players are serving in government once again.

The illusion is that of reform. There really wasn't any meaningful reform as a result of any of these "hearings". Rather, they are staged theater to make the masses -- particularly the educated masses -- think that things are really changing. But the real goal is simply protecting the status quo.

Did I ever say I expected "purity" from all politicians? No. However, a simple willingness to uphold the Constitution would be nice. It's pretty damned telling when, after 9/11, there was ONE SINGLE MEMBER of Congress who insisted on following the Constitution by refusing to give Bush a blank check for war, and that one Congressional Representative was demonized for her actions.

That person was Rep. Barbara Lee.

And these are the people you are counting on to save us? Heaven help us all if that is the case.

[Frances]

34. I think you are speaking from an ivory tower

If you had lived as an African American in Alabama in the 40s and 50s, I think you would have a more realistic view of the world.

[IrateCitizen]

37. So, rather than debate about the points I raised...

... you've decided to turn this into a debate about me, my worldview, and my background.

Thanks. You've demonstrated to me that you're not willing to engage in a substantive discussion.

Buh-bye. Plunk!

[Frances]

40. I happen to think that a person's personal experiences

influence the way a person looks at the world.

Those people who have lived with genuine personal injustice bring that experience to the table.

Those people who have never seen genuine personal injustice up close may feel they have the luxury of being more idealistic.

[IrateCitizen]

43. It sounds like you're basically saying that since...

... I didn't grow up as a black person in the South during the 1940's and 1950's that I am therefore presenting an "ivory tower" viewpoint.

If I'm wrong on this, then please tell me what I can do to help legitimize my viewpoint.

I guess that being an aspiring historian and being willing to face court-martial and imprisonment rather than being ordered to deploy to Iraq isn't enough to establish a good foundation to speak from. Please let me know what else I must do to be qualified to weigh in on this....

[Frances]

49. It sounds as though you are in a really tough place.

I don't see any easy answers for your situation. I wish I did.

[IrateCitizen]

50. Was in a tough place. I'm a free man now. (nt)

[Frances]

51. How did you manage to get out of that tough place?

I think others in your situation would want to know.

[IrateCitizen]

53. Check your inbox. (nt)

[itzamirakul]

46. Frances...I have read your every post in this thread

but I swear, you totally lost me with this post. How does Irate Citizen's post have anything to do with living as an African American in Alabama in the 40s and 50s?

The point in the orginal post was to discuss ANYONE in politics or in the media that you feel you can still trust to tell you both sides of a story or perhaps tell you the truth about a situation.

Saying that I do not trust democratic politicians any more that I trust Republican politicians does not enable Bush. Rather, if enough of us say it and those Dem politicians get wind of it, their behavior will change and they will become at least a little more honorable in their actions and their dealings.

If they don't know how we feel then they will think it is ok for them to continue to support Bush because in some way it benefits them personally.

I don't trust people who are married to the opposition like Carville anymore. I used to but no more. I do not trust anyone on the DLC or DCCC. I do not trust the New Democratic Coalition because it is made up of the DLC and its old leadership still trying to keep power. And I definitely don't trust any Republicans.

But that's just me. I wanted to know how other Democrats feel. Sometimes when you have lost trust, you want to hear from others who either feel the same or else still feel some trust and why they do.

Anyway...the thing about being black in Alabama in the 40s and 50s coming back to haunt us today is true and I agree with you, but I just didn't think that idea belonged in this thread. I wish you would start a new thread with that idea.

[Frances]

38. Bush's transgressions have been far more odious

and numerous than Nixon's ever were--ane yet there he sits in the White House.

Nixon may not have served time in prison, but he was forced out where he could do no more damage.

If Dems were in the majority in the Congress, it's possible that Bush could go the way of Nixon.

But, because of what you said about Nixon, I think you are saying that you wouldn't be satisfied unless Bush went to prison. I would settle just to get Bush out where he can do less damage.

[IrateCitizen]

44. If you just settle, then you're right back here 30 years later...

Perhaps if people would see there were actually consequences to such mad power grabs, they might not be so ready to try them in the future.

Kind of like MLK's Riverside speech about confronting the "much deeper malady" that lies at the heart of American society, as opposed to simply opposing the war in Vietnam. We didn't listen to him then, and we're right back in the same place 35 years later.

[Frances]

54. Fortunately, no society is static

No matter what the decision is today, this kind of issue will come up again in 35 years. Each generation has to fight for its rights. That's why I want to fight now to keep the rights that were won in the Civil Rights struggle.

[ultraist]

56. Did you live in Alabama in the 40s and 50s and are you A-A?

[ultraist]

17. I agree

But, to say we don't trust any of them, is not saying there is no difference between the Dems and Repukes. I don't trust A or B, therefore A and B are the same? That's illogical.

For some, there is a difference, but there are a few Dems who may as well be Repukes, like Lieberman. They are NOT fighting for core Democratic values.

[Walt Starr]

8. I thought I'd be able to trust Obama

but that trust evaporated pretty quickly.

At this point I trust nobody. Not a person.

[mordarlar]

9. Boxer

[grumpy old fart]

10. Boxer, Sy Hersh....it's a short list

[Mary in KC]

11. I like Kennedy.

Didn't use to, but he has turned into a real stand up kind of guy.

[ultraist]

13. I don't blindly trust any one politician or MSM person

It's reckless to forgoe skepticism & critical thinking. The paternal allegiance mantra is not patriotism, it's a cult mindset (ie drinking the kool aide).

It's our duty as citizens to question authority, research the facts, analyze each situation and stay involved. Anything less than that is mere compliance and submission.

[Frances]

18. I assume that most of the people responding to this post

don't think that Bush and his ilk pose a real danger to the U.S.
I suggest that you look at the latest breaking news to see instance after instance of things that Bush has done that no previous president in the history of our country has gotten away with.

If you really feel that Bush is leading the country in a very dangerous direction, then I think you would be posting about positive, specific things we can do that will prevent the continuing consolidation of power by Bush.

[IrateCitizen]

19. Proof positive of what they say about what happens when you "assume"...

You make an ass out of u and me....

Nobody here has said that they think Bush poses no threat. However, you offer up that strawman in order to simply bolster your own opinion.

Bush is most certainly a threat. It's just that most people on this board don't see Democratic politicians as the saviors who will fix everything for us like you do. That hardly means we don't see Bush and his ilk as a threat, despite the contortions you engage in to say we do.

[clem_c_rock]

21. Noone in government and the mainstream media

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. Trust politicians? About as much as I do any salesmen.

Some aren't as bad as others. There are a few, painfully few, that have seemed to actually stand for something worthwhile and have the guts to stick to it. Wayne Morse and William Fullbright come to mind.

[Frances]

32. The founding fathers didn't trust any politicians either

They thought all politicians could be corrupted by power.

That's why they set up a system of checks and balances.

One reason that Bush has gotten away with things no other U.S. president has is that there are no checks and balances.

All 3 branches of govt (President, Congress, the Supreme Court) are controlled by Repubs.

If for no other reason than checks and balances, the American people shoud vote Dems into Congress.

[IrateCitizen]

36. You mean like LBJ obeyed checks and balances...

... during the Vietnam War? IIRC, Dems had a majority at that time as well, and they fully supported the imperial presidency.

Sorry, but I find Democrats to have almost as bad a track record in this regard as Republicans. The problem is not which party is in power, it lies in the rise of the imperial presidency over the past 100+ years.

[Frances]

48. That's exactly my point

When Johnson was president, the Congress was in Democratic hands. If it had been in Republican hands, there would have been a check on Johnson's power.

But even with checks and balances, I do not think we will ever avoid all wars. I wish it were otherwise.

[Protagoras]

30. Mike Malloy...and um....

hmmmm...

I think I'd trust Russ Feingold most days of the year...Ted Turner of late has also regrown a conscience...

As for trusting anyone who's real active in the MSM...John Stewart has become more credible than anyone else and he's a comedian. That's such a sorry statement.

Walter Cronkite needs to come back.

[FreedomAngel82]

33. Who I trust

in MSM is BBC and Yahoo. On the networks just Jon Stewart. Sad really. In politics people like Boxer and Kerry and Kennedy for example. I trust my mayor (he's democrat) to do the best job he can with what's going on in our country and then I make up my own mind to know if what they say is true or not. It's dangerous to just trust anybody because they affiliate with your party.

[fujiyama]

39. I don't blidndly trust anyone

although I have some faith in Feingold, Boxer, Kerry, Levin, Kennedy, and a few others to usually do the right thing.

Hersch is probably the only journalist I think actually even deserves the title.

No one on TV News is worth giving the time of day.

[Lisabtrucking]

41. The propaganda can't work on me anymore. I don't trust any of them.

The first thing you should ask yourself, is who will benefit, then who's involved, then do your own research and I don't mean going to a few blogs or web-sites. I mean getting out there finding the people who will benefit from what ever they are seeking. Find people who disagree with what ever they want, and learn why they don't agree with it. Then using some of your own common sense, which I believe many people in America is lacking.

[BiggJawn]

42. No One and No One

And especially in the MSM. They're WHORES, paid to do their corporate master's bidding.

[VelvetMonkeyWrench]

45. I trust me

Most non-trivial political messages, because of the nature of the general public audience they adddress, are considerably "dumbed down" and cartoonish in nature. The real world is full of "gotchas" and pitfalls that the simplified form never manages to consider.

MSM due to limitation in its format, and audience (remember, the average IQ is by definition 100), is forced to similarly dumb down, and cartoonize the news.

I'm not convinced there's a lot of rocket scientists out there hawking news these days either - a lot of patently retarded stuff gets said and repeated that even the dumbing down process can't account for.

You know the old saw: "those who can do, those who can't teach, those who can't teach administrate". I'd add a couple more at the end of the list - those who can't administrate, work as newspaper reporters. Those who can't work as newspaper reporters, get into TV. ;->

[proud patriot]

47. Trust No One

I find out for myself , make up my own mind .

[Zorra]

57. Dennis Kucinich and John Conyers. n/t