Making Copies for Sunday School on Company Time- is it theft?

[Modem Butterfly]

I have a lot of copies that have to be made in short order. I can't use the copy machine because another employee is using it to copy materials for her Sunday School class (apparently, Easter is coming up). I like this employee, but it really irritates me that I can't get my work done right now because of her extra-ciricular copying. Another employee just came in my office and complained about the situation, basically accusing this employee of theft of time and materials (i.e., using company property to do something for her church). What do you think? Is this something worth making a big deal over? Or is this just an over-reaction? FWIW, it turns out she's made about three reams worth of copies.

[Walt Starr]

1. It is theft

Misuse of company assets. Paper and toner costs money so this employee is stealing company materials.

[HereSince1628]

15. It isn't theft if the employee has permission to do this.

[Walt Starr]

20. Nearly every time somebody utilizes company copiers for personal reasons

no permission was sought or given.

[HereSince1628]

37. But then this might be one of the minority of the times...

Not saying you are wrong. But in our society the presumption is supposed to be innocence, right?

The circumstance indicates that this looks like a frequently encountered problem. The supervisor needs to be informed of the possibility.

But, IMHO, the statement "it is theft" isn't yet warranted. It _could_ be theft.

[Walt Starr]

41. Could be, but it is interfering with regular work

So if there is permission, prioritization must be made.

[HereSince1628]

43. True enough, but I can't say prioritization wasn't made.

[Walt Starr]

45. Under such circumstances, the best bet is to report it to HR

and let them sort it out within the framework of company policy.

[TahitiNut]

21. Then (technically) it may be tax fraud and accounting fraud.

:shrug:

[HereSince1628]

36. Maybe, but maybe it is an "in kind" contribution to a charity.

And that might be tax-deductible (I am not a tax expert)

I'm saying, from my position I recognize that it might be a violation of a company policy and it might not be.

[TahitiNut]

42. Then it must be accounted for properly.

For example, let's suppose you sell copiers. Let's suppose you have demonstrators. If your company were to use those demo copiers for normal administrative work, the company could be prosecuted for accounting fraud. There are a host of accounting controls evaded when 'unofficial' use of company resources is condoned. So, it's not just a question of informal 'permission'; it's a question of possible tax evasion. Such questions are not superficial and would require a more detailed analysis to determine the magnitude and nature of impact. (Suffice it to say that it would be a firing offense in most companies in which I've worked. I say that as a former Internal Auditor who's worked at some crooked companies and some relatively honest companies.)

In one case, I can guarantee you it'd be a firing offense. If the company were a federal contractor and either the employee or the copier were part of contract cost recovery, the fed would come down hard - including possible jail time. If the organization were a government agency, then the employee would be fired - civil service or not. Believe me, I've seen it happen for far, far less.

[HereSince1628]

44. True, true too if the copies were paid for.

I've worked in places that made the copier available to employees so long as they paid. Those little "petty cash" funds need accounting too.

[meow2u3]

48. Haven't you learned yet? ;)

It's OK for the company to steal from its employees, but not for employees to steal from the company. :eyes:

[Zenlitened]

2. It seems to me that her copying project is disrupting the workflow...

... at the very least she needs to put her project on hold while others use the machine to do actual job-related work.

[meegbear]

3. Approach her later in the day ...

and suggest to her that if she's going to use office equipment for outside purposes, she should do either before the work day starts or after hours. Tell her that people are upset about it.

[FreedomAngel82]

13. I also think

since she has used so much of the paper for her own personal reason's that aren't work related she should buy some paper to replace all the paper she used for free that wasn't job related.

[Walt Starr]

16. Toner isn't cheap, either

and so she should have to pay for the toner used!

[redqueen]

4. Geez...

if it wasn't 3 reams worth, I wouldn't see it as a huge issue, but that's an enormous amount of paper and time.

[Modem Butterfly]

30. The machine was empty when I got to it this morning...

So I put three reams in for my own project, and she bumped me with hers. When I finally got the machine again, there were three pages left. I'm really irritated right now and if I try to talk with her about it, I'm just going to end up going off.

[Dorian Gray]

51. When you calm down

You should talk to her. It's the best way to handle it. Between the two of you. If it doesn't stop, then take it to HR or the boss.

[ET Awful]

5. Yes, it's theft.

Of both time and materials. Unless she has been given express consent to use the company resources (paper, toner, etc.) or is reimbursing, the materials theft is a no-brainer. As to the time, if she is using her work time instead of break time to do it, and if she is interfering with others getting their work done, that too is theft.

[bryant69]

6. The question is

If she were making copies for a garage sale or if she were making copies to pass out to her budies of a good article, or if she were doing invitations to a party she was throwing, something non-secular, would it be any different?

In my mind it would be exactly the same. It's a company copier, it should be used for company business. The fact that she's using it for religious purposes shouldn't enter into it. At the very least she could wait until you are done, since yours actually is work related.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ohioliberal]

7. I would confront her first

and ask her if she is going to pay for the three reams she used. Also tell her that you have to get your work done first. If she just ignores you, then you should tell her boss. If she was only copying a few pages I wouldn't make a big deal out of it, but since she is basically abusing it then by all means say something.

Good luck!

[FreedomAngel82]

24. I agree

I would get the other people to talk to her as well if they're annoyed. Maybe if more than one person comes to her she'll stop. If not then, like ohioliberal said, I'd go to the boss as a group and complain.

[cynatnite]

8. Three reams!

Geez, that's a lot. I wouldn't blame you for making a big deal over it. It's not work-related and it's affecting the jobs of other people.

It's theft of time and materials, IMO.

[TahitiNut]

28. 1500 pages @6¢ would be $90, not including salary and overhead.

That's cost. Value is whatever Kinko's would charge, I guess.

[FreedomAngel82]

9. Wow!

I think in a lot of sense it is stealing because she's keeping other people from doing their work and taking company time from you, her job and others. Her job isn't to make fliers for Sunday school but to do the job the company hired her on. I would encourage people to complain to your boss and if your boss doesn't do anything about it I'd bitch to the girl.

[AllegroRondo]

10. Thats just too much

I'd be willing to turn a blind eye on a couple copies here and there, but 3 reams is just too much.

[shimmergal]

11. That's _way_ too many to sneak in on the office copies.

Normally I'd say just let it go--we've all done a bit of personal copying at work--but three reams, plus the time it takes, is ridiculous. Most church offices have their own copier; why can't she take it there? Or to a commercial copy shop?

Why don't you (and maybe the fellow worker) just say, "Look, I need to use this machine." If she acts huffy, then you could take it higher. Most people with any sensitivity stand aside when they're doing big copy jobs anyway, to let other people get in.

[lectrobyte]

12. Where I work, an occasional copying is probably ok,

but discouraged. By that, I mean, a few pages of loan applications or tax returns etc. I don't have the brass to run off 3 reams of something (by ream, I assume you mean the wrapped bundle of copier paper) -- that must be what, 1500 copies? Sounds like theft to me. If it's interfering with getting work done, then a polite "excuse me, I have company business copies that must go out now" should do...

[Hand]

14. Sounds pretty excessive to me

Five or ten copies that take little time and cost next to nothing is one thing, but 1500 copies? Yike--that's a chunk of dough, plus lost time for you and anyone else who needs to use the machine.

Rather a delicate situation, of course. No one wants to rat out a colleague--well, some people do, but I assume you don't. I'd say that someone needs to talk to her in practical terms--"I need to gwt this copying done now, and I can't wait on your personal use." That's a pretty straightforward priority, or it sure a shell should be, anyway.

I'm sure this is a big help. ;-)

[DemocracyInaction]

17. Perhaps ask the boss what the company policy is on use of the

machine and whether it is okay if company is reimbursed for paper, etc. Then tell boss about the incident. If it's on the up and up then the employee already had permission. If not, the Church Lady is stealing.

[aden_nak]

18. What about posting to DU on company time?

I'm using their electricity, not to mention the fact that I'm using company time for a private interest. Of course, I guess that also goes for updating my website and designing video game guides, eh?

[FreedomAngel82]

31. The thing with that though

is you're not keeping someone else from doing their job like this woman is. Plus 1500 copies is quite pricy for the company when other people need the machine for their job(s).

[aden_nak]

46. What if I am the IT guy and people wait for me to post before I help them?

Hypotheticly, of course.

[Zenlitened]

47. Then you are in the wrong. - n/t

[mondo joe]

32. That all depends on the specifics

Some companies permit some use of internet and some do not.

But I think it would be the RARE company that would okay use of copier for another organization in a way that prevents employees from getting work done.

[FreedomAngel82]

49. Right

At my dad's work he said he can't access the internet and they don't have games on their computers so they have no choice to work. Then again he's a civil engineer so he mainly does a lot of drawings and math and whatnot. I think if a company has it in their rules that you can't fool around on company time they should have it on their computers to where you can't access the internet and/or games.

[Dorian Gray]

52. I work from home...

So I don't have to worry about all that! ;)

[DebinTx]

19. You should stand by the copier to show you're waiting

somebody should notice you waiting, especially if that other person wanting it too waited with you.

[KarenS]

22. theft,,,, not just the actual materials, but she is getting paid

while she is doing this AND she is holding up getting the work of the company done,,,,, sheesh,,,,

In a large company, there are usually 'rules' addressing things like this,,,, in places I've worked, it wouldn't be ok during work or even after work !!

Not sure I'd make a 'big deal' over it, but a well-chosen and well-placed comment to her supervisor, in fact, may save this woman's job!!!

on edit:
and the content of the material isn't the issue except that it is not company stuff.

[Kukesa]

23. Our office had the same problem but it was Boy Scouts'

stuff that was being copied.

Our office manager issued a memo that non-work related copies could be made AFTER office hours at a cost of $.05/copy and copy paper could be purchased from our receptionist.

Did that stop the practice? Not entirely, but it sure helped. At least those folks who ignored the memo stood aside when the copier was needed for work. They had this sheepish grin on their faces, too.

[spunky]

25. I'd talk to her first, she may have brought the paper herself.

When I was in grad school, I made photocopies of handouts for my fellow grad students at work a couple times but 1) I brought the paper myself (still cheaper than 10 cents a copy at the copy place), and 2)when co-workers came in needing to make work-related copies, I'd stop and let them make their copies.

But, my bosses were okay with the occaisional use of the copier for personal purposes, and its not like I did it all the time.

If this is the first time you've seen her do it, I'd either let it go, or verify that she didn't bring her own paper (or intend to replace the paper) before you rat her out to the boss.

[Modem Butterfly]

35. I filled it this AM for my job, and she bumped me for hers.

When I got back to the machine, it was essentially empty.

[Solly Mack]

26. theft in more ways than one

not her materials
she's on company time
she's also stealing time away from other employees...the longer they have to wait to do their own work related tasks, the further they get behind. What if someone has a deadline for needed material?

it's thoughtless, inconsiderate, and rude...not to mention misappropriation of company funds and resources.

I'd say something to her.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

27. yes it is and yes you should make a big deal out of it

[mondo joe]

29. It's theft in several ways

It's theft of the company property AND theft of prooductive work time.

[Bridget Burke]

33. I'd send an e-mail to management for "guidelines"

There's no point in "getting" her personally. In most places, you're allowed a personal copy or two--say, a legal form you're sending off. But such massive use of company equipment & resources for non-business purposes (religious or whatever) is wasteful. And it pisses off other employees who just want to make their darn copies.

[mondo joe]

34. Or even ask the coworker to ask for guidelines (esp since this is a liked

co worker).

A better way to keep the peace.

[NoPasaran]

38. No more than xeroxing voter registration forms was last year

Ummm, not that I know anybody who might have done that!

[MsTryska]

39. yes it is definitely theft.

I can't believe the balls ont hat employee to be using the company machine (maintenenace is expensive)

company toner

and company paper for her Sunday School stuff.



that needs ot go to Kinkos.


If i were the boss, i would have to dock her paycheck the amount it would have cost to get the job done at kinkos.

[seabeyond]

40. as an employer that is cash she gets for

wage to do work that is not being used for what she is being paid for. so yes., and supplies is a tangent theft of material the company paid out money for. she needs to give the company at least a twenty or whatever for supply if nothing else.

i see it as theft. unless she asked permission. as an employer if an employee asked, i may just as likely say ok, but since it is my money, i would at least expect employee to ask before they took

[Dorian Gray]

50. If it annoys you, complain

directly to her. Give her a chance to stop on her own accord. If she doesn't, then complain to the bosses. If it's interfering with your work, it IS a form of "theft." Though I doubt her intention are so nefarious. Give her a shot to back down before you make a big deal out of it. :)

[DARE to HOPE]

53. Sounds like a big Sunday school if she's using 3 reams of paper...

...I am sure that they would have their own copy machine.

I know our little church does...and it copies quite a few extra things for folks like resumes, Boy Scout stuff, even things for the R Catholic church down the street where our kindergarten teacher also works. That's just how life is these days--busy as all get out.

However, toner, drum, paper all DO cost money. And she should be asked to think about these things if she has not already.