Schiavo in a nutshell, as seen by a flabbergasted Democrat

[hollywood926]

A conversation overheard on the DU...

So...if Mr. Schiavo really believes that his wife doesn't feel anything, why not let her live another 100 years to make her parents feel better? She's just a houseplant, as his lawyer said, right? So what difference does it make?

She wanted it that way.

Says who?

Says her husband.

Can he prove it?

No.

And even if he could, how do you know she didn't change her mind after the new perspective that would naturally result from such a trauma? Christopher Reeve thought he wanted to die, but changed his mind. What if the voices of her family, the sights and sounds around her and the HOPE are enough to make her want to live?

How could she change her mind? She is brain dead. Chris Reeve was not brain dead.

Oh, really? Are you sure she isn't brain damaged, not brain dead?

No, she is brain dead. She has no cerebral cortex!

Then why wouldn't her husband allow her parents to do as they wish and he could just pretend that she is dead?

Because it isn't what she wants!!!!

How could you simultaneously be "brain dead" AND want something? Doesn't wanting something require you to be "brain alive?"

Well, all I know is...this isn't about money.

Then what is it about?

It is about the Republicans pandering to their pro-life base!

Really? That's what the parents have been thinking about all these years?

Yes, that's why they hired Randall Terry, that anti-abortion nutjob!

They didn't hire him. He jumped on the bandwagon like Tom DeLay and Bush and many others.

Well, the Repukes are politicizing this! It's making me sick!

Yes, they are. But what has that got to do with Terri's parents wanting her to stay alive?

Her parents are awful. They are the reason she had bulimia in the first place! SHE authorized her husband to be her guardian - that is part of the marriage contract!!!!

Isn't fidelity part of the marriage contract? Since her husband has moved on sexually and romantically, clearly the sanctity of marriage is not his first priority. Why do you think he won't move on and let the parents take over her decision-making? Could it be a case of asserting power just because he CAN?

No, it's because he loves her and wants to give her what she would have wanted.

She would have wanted him to drag her parents through court for years and years? Do you have proof that she hated her parents?

Well, if they just would have let him pull the plug when he first wanted to, 7 years ago, this wouldn't have happened. Now the government is getting involved in this personal matter and it's not right!

This has been going through the court system for years - the courts aren't the goverment? It wasn't a personal matter then? When the government rules to starve her to death, will you be equally as angry that they interfered?

This is also about gay marriage!

Alright. As long as you aren't politicizing it.
:eyes:

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Let her pass from Purgatory to Paradise already

for God's sake!

[Walt Starr]

2. I'd say that flabbergasted Dem has a pretty warped view of it

almost identical to say, Terry Randall.

[mondo joe]

6. Funny to see a "dem" insist Terri should have no say in what

happens to her own body, isn't it?

[Walt Starr]

8. Ayup

Definitely very funny to see a "Dem" believe people shuld have no say in their own end under such circumstances.

[hollywood926]

20. When she signed the marriage contract in her early twenties,

I really don't think this was on her mind.

[mondo joe]

24. Your psychic powers are relevant to this legal case. Terri's legal choice

is.

[hollywood926]

37. So you think that on her wedding day, this

young 20-something was thinking, "I can't wait to sign that marriage contract! It's really important that my husband have the right to usurp my parents' authority in the likely event that I will collapse and become incapacitated."

Sometimes you just need logic and reason, Mondo.

[sonicx]

40. Actually, that is the exact thing gay couples want.

and one big reason why they want to marry.

[mondo joe]

42. If you don't respect Terri's ability to make a legally binding decision

what difference would a living willl make?

[gollygee]

33. really?

When I got married what was on my mind was to become a family with my husband and for us to be each other's next of kin and take care of each other. What do you think T.S. thought marriage was?

[mondo joe]

39. If Terri didn't know what she wanted why would a signed living will

be any different?

[Kitka]

26. The court has ruled repeatedly

that this is what she wanted to happen to her body. So has her husband. Neither you nor I nor the government has the right to assume we know better.

[hollywood926]

30. How does a court rule what someone wants?

Explain to me how that physically happens.

[gollygee]

35. They listen to evidence

based upon statements she made to various people.

Maybe you should read up a bit.

[mondo joe]

36. By sworn testimony by multiple witnesses who confirm the wishes

expressed by the person in question.

[Bunny]

50. You really need to read up on this.

Your statement is one of the most ignorant I've ever seen.

[Inland]

3. Say, mind if I dig up the corpse of your dead wife?

Why? She's dead. She doesn't feel anything. It doesn't desecrate her, if she's dead, does it? She isn't even your wife, anymore. You probably have a girlfriend and everything.

It would please me a great deal, doesn't cost you anything. Heck, I'll pay for the shoveling.

She doesn't even rate a houseplant's care. Just an inert corpse.

If it bothers you that I talk to her as if she's still alive, rolling her head around so that her mouth lolls open, then you don't have to watch.

If you can think of a reason why I can't prop up what used to be one of your loved ones, you can think of a reason why Michael Schiavo is horrified by what is going on. Try. Try real hard.

[hollywood926]

11. But again....if she is not even a houseplant, let alone a person...why

can't he just leave her to her parents? Keep in mind that they are not opposed to pulling the plug eventually. They simply want her to receive some therapy that they believe might help and, according to Terri's brother, they would prefer a different method to the dehydration/starvation method.

They might well be delusional about whether the therapy would help her situation, but why not humor them?

[Walt Starr]

12. Why do you support the Republican agenda?

Please give an answer.

[mondo joe]

13. His responsibility is to Terri, not her ghoulish family.

THat's the point of expressing your wishes and having next of kin.

[gollygee]

14. She isn't a houseplant

and it's going against what the court found to be her wishes.

If I were in that situation I hope my husband would fight to help me to die without being used as a sideshow circus and political tool.

[Inland]

15. So you can't think of a reason why you wouldn't let me dig up your family?

Why can't I dig up your dead wife?

Cant' you just leave it to me? Keep in mind that I will rebury her eventually. I am just a deluded person who is convinced it is going to do somebody some good?

I might be delusional, but why not humor me?

It's just a mass of inert matter.

Answer that question and you have my answer.

[hollywood926]

27. You aren't making any sense and

you are being ridiculous. If you dig up my dead loved one, might therapy help her? In that case, here's a shovel.

This woman is not dead. That's the point. And the question is, why does he want her dead so desperately? He's not by her bedside stroking her cheek every day. He's home boning another woman.

[sonicx]

38. It's not his choice. The court ordered it. have you been paying attention?

they heard both sides. the court rules. parents appeal several times and lost.

[K-W]

16. Because consoling hysterical parents is not worth

changing the laws of the state of florida or of the nation.

The parents got due process, they lost, we cant just jump through hoops to keep them from dealing with loss.

The reason we cant is because it would be an illegal and outrageous accomidation of a personal nature that could never be offered to every american.

[sonicx]

17. Because they admitted in court that they would keep her alive no matter

what she said.

[mondo joe]

19. But hollywood's contention is that her wishes don't matter

According to hollywood it would be fine to put Terri in a brothel and let men pay $10 a pop to have sex with her, because she can't mind so there's no reason to not abuse her.

[LincolnMcGrath]

22. You need too study up some.

They (parents) said they would keep her suspended through MULTIPLE amputations and even open heart surgery.

[mondo joe]

4. Time to correct more falsehoods:

1. Her husband has proven what Terri wanted in a court of law and that has been upheld 19 times.

2. No one can ever know what anyone in a coma is thinking or if they're thinking, but we know most of Terri's brain is gone so she's not thinking anything. That said, THAT is why it's important for YOU to choose YOUR guardian - so it's someone YOU trust with decisions like this.

3. Michael won't let Terri's parents violate the wishes she expressed because they have no right to do so.

4. We have proof that Terri's parents don't care about her wishes and admit they would defy them, which makes them unfit guardians.

[hollywood926]

18. How did he prove what she wanted in a court of law?

He didn't. The court ruled in his favor, but he didn't "prove" anything.

Let me get the compassionate Democratic position straight here - The parents have no right to any wishes regarding their daughter because the man she was married to for 5 whole years is her guardian (you are using the marriage contract he violated as the legal document that gives him that right - Terri, of course, signed no document that in any way stated she wanted to die in this situation).

She is feeling no pain, but her existence should be terminated because the man she was married to for 5 years "says so." The people who created her and raised her and her siblings who protected and cared for her are irrelevant.

Right?

[mondo joe]

Michael proved it in a court of law with multiple witnesses.

Deny all you like, it's done.

And Michael didn't violate any marriage contract, a legal contract with terms that have not been vioated.

[sonicx]

25. if you don't believe in marriage, then that's your business.

btw...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3317040

[Lone_Star_Dem]

28. This is not, nor should it be in her parents or siblings hands.

"The people who created her and raised her and her siblings who protected and cared for her are irrelevant."

Legally, yes. It's just that simple.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Sounds like dueling fallacious arguments

[mattclearing]

Dupe

self-delete

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Walt Starr]

23. Some people have yet to figure out that the overwheming majority

want this circus to end.

[hollywood926]

29. The overwhelming majority thinks marriage should be between man and woman

so I guess they must be right! Majority Rules!

And of course we know who the majority wanted to be President. So clearly he is the best man for the job. Hey, I like this majority rules business! I'll never to have to form my own opinions again! Baaa! Baaaaaaaa!

[Walt Starr]

34. Not 70%!

Why do you support the REpublican agenda on this?

[hollywood926]

43. Informed, reasonable people support no agenda.

If you had carefully read the "conversation" above, it's crystal clear that the Republican agenda is not supported whatsoever. Unlike most Democrats on this board, I do not base my opinions on what Democrats are thinking or what Republicans are thinking.

[sonicx]

45. Neither do I, I still agree with removal of the tube regardless of RWers.

[gollygee]

47. I'm basing my opinion on the rulings of multiple courts

who heard actual evidence in this case, not people who are speculating about what T.S. thought "marriage" meant or why her husband has fallen in love again. If these courts had ruled that T.S. would have wanted to have life-prolonging measures used, then I would feel differently.

It was her decision and multiple courts ruled that this is what she would want. That makes it the right thing to do.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[hollywood926]

Here's a CNN poll on gay marriage...MAJORITY RULES

But a majority of people surveyed in late October said gay marriages should not be legally recognized, according to a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll. According to the survey, 61 percent said no when asked whether gay marriages should be recognized as valid by law. Thirty-five percent said yes.
The same poll showed sharp difference on the issue based on gender. According to the survey, 70 percent of men said no to legalizing gay marriage while 26 percent supported such unions. The survey showed that 53 percent of women opposed gay marriages, while 43 percent supported legalizing them.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. But, it's so compassionate to push mush through her intestines

and into her diapers and proclaim her "alive" because some of her reflexes respond to stimulus.

[Kitka]

21. A bit of critical thinking....

reveals the answer to your question...

How could you simultaneously be "brain dead" AND want something? Doesn't wanting something require you to be "brain alive?"

Mr. Schiavo is claiming that she wanted to not be kept alive this way. WantED. When she was capable of thought, which she is not now. Hence, the ability for him to say that she is extremely brain damaged beyond hope and that this is what she has wantED.

[LittleClarkie]

31. So which color is Mr. Flabergasted?

Blue for Dem or red for Flabergasted.

[mondo joe]

32. Just a few of hollywood's inconsistencies:

hollywood claims this is wrong because there is no record of Terri's wishes.

But hollywood disregards Terri's legal contract with her husband as her designated next-of-kin.

hollywood claims there is no proof of what Terri wanted.

But hollywood advocates disregarding Terri's wishes anyway because she can't care now so what's the harm in violating what Terri wanted.

[Junkdrawer]

41. Is "flabbergasted Democrat" code for "RW Republican"...

:shrug:

[hollywood926]

46. Maybe. Is RW Republican code for "person who THINKS?"

:shrug:

[the_spectator]

44. I like the way you make clear how unclear this case is.

It's also why I'm happy to have the Repubs get caught up in it, and have the Dems basically stand aside. This is also why this case IS essentially a one-off situtation. It's not going to be a defining moment for either side. It's trivia - compelling, dramatic, human-interest-story trivia. It's OJ.

It's NOT about the "right to die." No one really knows what Terri wants. Her husband claims she verbally expresed a wish to die in these situations. His corroborating witnesses on this are HIS brother and the brother's wife. Look, they were a typical young couple. Neither Terri or Michael at the time of their young marriage strikes me as particularly intellectual or deep-thinking types - not particularly likely to have a serious heart-to-heart talk about "what if" at that stage in their lives. I doubt Terri expressed any wish whatsoever to him. At most, she may have said "yuck" while half-watching some long-forgotten TV Movie about that Quinlan girl. Even if she ever said anything, I doubt Michael would remember it years later - probably "in one ear, out the other" like most things wives say to husbands!

It's NOT about the "cruelty of starvation" or anything like that - Terri IS, I believe, brain dead at this point.

It's about a family dispute - between Terri's parents and sibilings and Michael, her husband. But Congress isn't really "invading this family's decision or privacy" - they've already done that to each other. They've already made it a public issue themselves, both sides. BOTH sides are maddeningly stubborn. BOTH sides have been co-opted by people with agendas: Randal Terry has the parents, that lawyer and Dr. "Death" Crawford has the husband.

What gives this human-interest-story its human interest then? What has driven so many people to care enough to keep Terri "alive" that Congress did what it did? What makes a "Terri-head"? I think it's really all about Michael, not Terri. He's NO HERO, no matter what anyone says. He's an overgrown neanderthal, the type to be domineering over "his" women. A type that often never seems to have trouble attracting women to him, incidentally (and obviously in his case.) It is POSSIBLE that he wants her dead out of malice or spite, or for money. It is POSSIBLE that he was abusing her and this caused or contributed to her state. It is POSSIBLE that his "visits" to her over the years on her virtual-death bed have been occassions of absolute terror for Terri, IF Terri has ever been really conscious since she came out of her original coma, some 15 years ago. And all this real possibility is intensely compelling, intensely horrific. It's literature. It's Zola's "Therese Raquin" with the brute and his whore and (in that case) the old woman, mute, silent, paralyzed, but hearing everything, knowing of the crime.

It's literature!

[mondo joe]

49. It's only unclear if you choose to ignore the facts.

And your slander of Michael Schiavo proves that.

[Lars39]

52. What a load of crap.

[Moderator]

51. Locking

Flamebait.