DU Group Proposal: Womens' World

[NashVegas]

I'm surprised there's not already a DU users group for discussion of issues that affect and are affected by liberal women.

It would be nice to have a place for some girl talk that can include everything from the economic realities to the more frilly stuff that comes along having the XX.

It *should* go without saying, but I'll be specific: this would not be a forum for male-bashing of any kind. Any topic on sexual politics that goes over the line is the opposite of helpful, IMO.

Can I get 10 yeahs?

[silverlib]

1. Yeah

from me.

[Bunny]

2. There is already a Women's Rights and Issues Group.

How would this be different?

[NashVegas]

4. Maybe a Little Less Serious?

Hard to put my finger on it, exactly, but when I glance over the WR&I forum (which is not a users' group) it seems to focus on the more serious news/political issues. It's great for information, but it's not exactly a 'homey' place to let your hair down.

[Longhorn]

6. You bring up a good point.

I had forgotten about the Women's Rights and Issues Forum. That would be one difference, that one is a forum and the other would be a group. In a forum, there is no "mission statement" that protects members from endless arguments with people who will never agree. Also, since that forum is listed with the "Politics & Issues Forums," I assume the discussion is more focused on serious issues such as political power, discrimination, sexual harassment, rape, etc.

We do have examples of groups that have formed that are more specialized than a larger forum. For example, there's the Entertainment and Pop Culture Forum, but there's also the Classic Films Group and TV Chat Group, both of which could be discussed in the Entertainment and Pop Culture Forum.

So if we form a Women's Group, we would need to be clear in our mission statement how our group is different from the forum.

Thanks for bringing this up! :D

[Bunny]

7. Okay. Clear and concise description of the difference.

Thanks!

[Longhorn]

3. I love it!

Thanks for including both the serious and "frilly stuff." Where else could I go to ask advice on, say, make-up and have everyone understand that I don't want to buy anything tested on animals or made by a "red" company?

Thanks for suggesting this! Count me in!

[NashVegas]

9. Exactly

I'm not likely to take part in a make-up discussion, but I'd cringe in sympathy for anyone who did, and only had the Lounge as an option.

[Longhorn]

10. Believe me, I've tried it!

I have really dark circles under my eyes and I keep trying different remedies. I asked for help in the Lounge once and though there were some helpful comments, there were also the goofy ones and there's always the potential for the nasty ones and the copycat threads.

Also, threads last a lot longer in the groups so you can get more helpful input over time.

[blondeatlast]

15. Me too--if us Liberals can find a "blue" solution to THAT problem,

what CAN'T we do?!

[Desertrose]

5. yeah....sounds good to me. n/t

[Cadfael]

8. Count me in

Sounds good

[ElectroPrincess]

11. "this would not be a forum for male-bashing of any kind"

Hell! Then what good is it for us gals?!?

Like we need that "Fee-Male bonding" thing going on like the gun nut forums. ROTFLMAO

I vote "no." Let's not go there - segregate the sexes.

[lukasahero]

12. Yeah. nt

[aeolian]

13. Can we have an XY forum?

You know, beer, red meat, porn, and pro-sports?

[NashVegas]

22. I See No Reason Not To

..

[blondeatlast]

14. I'm in--I sometimes try to hide the fact that I'm a "girly-girl" Liberal,

but I'd love this!

I'm feminist to the core, but I love clothes and such. I see no conflict between the two, myself.

[Marnieworld]

16. As long as it doesn't become a "mothers" group

Too often the words women and mothers are synonymous. Recently I saw an article about problems of women in I.T. I read the whole thing (I am a woman in I.T.) and found nothing to do with me. It was all about mothers and it's so annoying when that happens.

[blondeatlast]

17. There is already a parenting forum, we can divert any threads that

digress to far into parenting to that forum. The mods are pretty good about that sort of thing.

I guarantee it will come up, as long as we are smart about not throwing poo at each other about the issue, it shouldn't be a problem.

[NashVegas]

23. I Wouldn't Outlaw 'Mom' Threads

But you're right, it would defeat the purpose of having a separate parenting group if it overwhelmed the topic list.

Hee hee .. maybe we could have special character spoilers, like for 'mom' threads, 'pms' threads and such so people know what they're in for when they click :)

[blondeatlast]

24. Not a bad idea... I'm a mom, but I'm not a *MOM*, if you catch

my drift!

I'm also going thru an early periomenopause--don't get me started... :evilgrin:

[NashVegas]

26. =)

I'm not a mom, and I'll probably be where you are in a few years (peri).

[REP]

18. I Love You, Marnieworld

Took the words out of my mouth.

[Marnieworld]

19. I love you too REP!

I was so afraid that I'd be flamed. Thanks. :D

[Longhorn]

21. I agree and I have four kids.

As previously noted, there is a parenting forum for those issues.

There can be an overlap, of course. We may need to address this in our mission statement. We need to define our group by the issues and not the people who may participate.

I can give you proof of the need for this group. I started the Baby Boomers group several months ago since there are many of us who are not quite ready for the seniors group but have issues such as paying for college and retirement at the same time, dealing with losing a job due to downsizing, empty nest, etc. The most popular thread in that mostly dormant group has to do with menopause and mammograms! And while those issues won't appeal to everyone in this proposed group, we will all have to face them eventually and where else do we discuss them? My daughter is only 26 and has already had mammograms and ultrasounds due to cysts, so it's not an issue just for older women.

BTW, I'm only voting once, I promise! ;)

[omega minimo]

20. NO. Unless you call it the "I'm Not A Feminisit Cuz I Like To Shave My

Legs" group.

"Girl talk" "frilly" "homey place to let your hair down" "girly girl" "make up" "GALS"!! Why reinforce stereotypes that ghettoize females?

Maybe the dark circles are from awareness of "serious issues such as political power, discrimination, sexual harassment, rape, etc."

We are in a culture/class war here "ladies" and the Rethugs have this week made it clear that it is a battle of LIFE OR DEATH. If you want to just hang, that IS what the Lounge is for. Don't let the macho dolts push you around. Maybe they'll learn something.

This week some women-centric subjects showed up in the general sections and it was GREAT to have more visibility and more voices chiming in.

The comment: "I'm feminist to the core, but I love clothes and such and I see no conflict between the two myself" reveals the false dichotomy that exists in A LOT of women's minds. That there IS a conflict that they have to somehow justify and defend. I think this group suggestion reinforces that.

If you want just a frill group, go for it. If you want to share with a more general population and try to integrate women's issues into the DU mainstream, and bash some of these harmful cliches, I'll be there!

:kick:

[NashVegas]

25. I Think You've Got The Wrong Idea

And I'm sorry if it was miscommunicated.

The original statement, and the purpose, is for discussion of a whole range of topics from the serious to the sublime to the, yes, frillier aspects.

It's not a matter of defending anything. It's asking for a space where we don't have to defend anything, and/or don't feel we have to. DU women shouldn't have to defend against wisecracks over asking a lipstick question anymore than we should have to defend against wanting to make equal salaries to our male counterparts.

I'd like to point out something else, seeing as though you've mentioned the culture war: there's a *lot* to be said for using subversion as a battle tactic.

PS - I haven't shaved my legs in several weeks. I hate it.

[omega minimo]

28. I'm glad you brought it up. It comes at a time that I noticed threads

that might have been relegated to the "women's space" were out in the open. GD and GD Politics. More accessible to more voices and potentially more diverse voices (including men).

I would like to see issues mainstreamed. For example, the issue of animal testing on products (mentioned above). Not just makeup.

I quoted someone other than you on the "defending" comment. The false dichotomy exists in women's minds. Those assumptions need to be challenged. The notion that feminism is NOT inclusive of women grooming ourselves ANY DAMN WAY WE PLEASE is a plant from the "feminazi" brigade, who intentionally demonized feminists and the word "feminism," starting in the 80's. Same time they brought back the "white wedding" industry.

Anti-woman propaganda has caused many young women to think they aren't feminists if they want to shave. Poppycock!

Explain your "subversion" idea. I'm not gettin it.

:hi:

[NashVegas]

29. Subversion

Code Pink is my idea of a very subversive group. They're out there working for change, and doing it under the banner of femininity. The color associated with female docility.

[Longhorn]

30. Good description!

To me, the main advantage of a group is that it moves more slowly, allowing for deeper conversations over time, updates, and a chance to get to "know" each other better. It's like the difference between trying to converse with a hundred people (or in the case of DU's main forums, hundreds of thousands of people!) as opposed to chatting with a dozen or so people (since every thread will not interest all participants.)


Also, :kick: for the evening crowd.

[NashVegas]

33. I Think We're Up To Seven

Would it be premature to discuss a charter?

[Longhorn]

34. I count ten.

You
silverlib
Me
blondeatlast
Desertrose
Cafael
lukashero
Marnieworld
guinivere
Chovexani

That's enough for a group. It might be easiest to write the mission statement by using one from another group as a model and editing to fit our group.

What do you think?

[NashVegas]

36. There Were a Couple

that seemed to indicate a 'yes' but didn't say so outright, I didn't want to put words in their mouth. And Guinivere has no star.

I was thinking something close to what was in the starting post:

From the serious to the sublime, discussion of topics affecting and affected by women.

Disclaimer: While there's no ban on discussion of sexual politics, this is not a forum for male-bashing.


What do you think about men being welcome to post? I don't think it's realistic to order them to stay out and expect that to be adhered to.

[Longhorn]

45. Looks like we've got them all now, however you count 'em!

I think all groups are open to all members who agree with the mission statement; your phrasing allows for both sexes.

You might change the word "forum" to "group," especially since there is a forum for women's issues.

Sounds good to me!

[NashVegas]

51. kk

How about "platform"?

I meant "forum" in the broader sense, as opposed to the container sense.

see post #42?

And great point about the phrasing allowing for both sexes.

[Eloriel]

64. You've just put the nail in the coffin for me.

I was totally with omega upthread, and you sorta convinced me it was worth looking at further -- but this is ridiculous.

No male bashing is bad enough (they DESERVE criticism, and few places more than right here at DU), but Men welcome to post too? NO!!! What's the fucking POINT? Ridiculous.

"From the serious to the sublime..." Gee, can we talk about the soaps and The View on this forum too, and what everyone wore to the Oscars? How about what to use to get out those nasty sink stains or ring-around-the-collar? :puke:

Beyond that, I'm astonished that YOU are female. I'd NEVER have guessed -- and that's not a compliment (just in case you're of a mind to think it is).

Have fun -- but you can probably count me out. Such a shame, too, to waste a precious opportunity like protected space on fluff and garbage.

[NashVegas]

67. We'll Miss You, Then

No male bashing is bad enough (they DESERVE criticism,

One can criticize and still remain within the boundaries of civil discourse.

and few places more than right here at DU), but Men welcome to post too? NO!!!

There's no way around it, for one thing. Shall we ask Elad to make a filter just for this one group? Seems a bit too much to ask. And if someone really wanted to, they could just lie in their info, and purposely try to stir up shit. So why bother trying to make a rule from the outset?

Gee, can we talk about the soaps and The View on this forum too, and what everyone wore to the Oscars?

Well, I don't know about the View. I don't read the GLBT forum, either, but if I did I wouldn't be surprised to see a thread there commenting on gay characters on soaps. Most soaps these days are written with a female and (to a lesser extent) gay male audience in mind. So women definitely do affect soaps. So, no, that wouldn't be off limits, now would it?

Oscars? Do you think the fashion houses who put women in their dresses for free don't know that many female viewers try to imagine themselves (and come up short) in those gowns? Why should that be off limits? These conversations have yet to happen. Why decide in advance how they will proceed?

Beyond that, I'm astonished that YOU are female. I'd NEVER have guessed -- and that's not a compliment (just in case you're of a mind to think it is).

Lately I'm astonished, as well, but that's besides the point. Who gets to define what it is to be a woman? Who gets to define what we're allowed to discuss? Who gets to define what we're allowed to think? My hope for a Womens' users group is that it will defy definitions.

[ElectroPrincess]

69. With respect, the answer for women's issues is increased integration not

isolation into one forum. This is just not viable. We don't exist in a vacuum - how about a "women's issues" forum inviting everyone?

Now that TYPE of forum (inviting everyone) would address issues important to us (Women) but not isolate ANYONE within DU.

[Longhorn]

74. There's already a women's issues forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=229

[ElectroPrincess]

76. Then I'm satisfied with just that. An *exclusive* forum? (women only)

No, I would not join a forum that would exclude anyone, most especially half of society, i.e., the male of the species. If half the population (males) were excluded from contributing, then there's no way to get any resolution inside such a controlled environment.

[ElectroPrincess]

77. Thanks for the scoop! We don't need an *exclusive* (women only).

If we are addressing "women's issues" in another forum, then there's no need to be exclusive. We don't resolve anything by excluding half of the DU forum (men).

Besides, I kid you not = if we (women) MUST have an exclusive forum, the Al Bundy males' of DU will insist on a "Tittie Bar" forum. WORD! ;)

[Longhorn]

80. Neither the forum or the group would be exclusive

nor could they be if we wanted to, as Crisco pointed out in another post. However, the forum I showed you is under the category of "Political Issues" forums. Some of us would like a group where we can discuss women's issues that are not political, and we'd like to do it somewhere besides the Lounge.

Gosh, I belong to a good dozen groups: Cooking & Baking, Classical Films, TV Chat, Bicycling, Exercise and Health, etc. All of these topics can be discussed in the Lounge and most still are, I'm sure, but the groups give us a place to discuss where we KNOW there is interest. And since posts hang around for DAYS, we don't miss the discussions either if we happen to have lives away from DU! ;)

[ElectroPrincess]

82. Then IF men can post on this forum don't call it "Womans' World"

On Edit: I hate to cook and love electronics. ;)

[Longhorn]

85. Frankly, I hate to cook, too, which is why I participate in that group --

to try to get inspired! ;) I also belong to the Computer Help group, or whatever it's called.

I definitely see your point. If you can think of an umbrella title that would incorporate the kinds of things that some of us would like to talk about, I'm all eyes!

[NashVegas]

90. Let Them

If DU guys see this, and decide they'd like a forum where they can do 'guy talk,' that doesn't bother me in the least. A "tittie bar" forum would get shut down in a heartbeat.

I'd expect something more like beers, gears and barbecue grills, though :)

[omega minimo]

79. Who gets to define

"Who gets to define what it is to be a woman?"
Men who dominate the discussion. Women who perpetuate the fixation with the "male gaze" and pandering/pampering to meet male expectations. I say again, grooming however we damn please is not something we have to justify or segregate to discuss. The "gal" cliches in the initial posts reinforce the message that you are focused on doing it for men, not for yourselves. And if you don't hate the word "gal," we should talk.

"Who gets to define what we're allowed to discuss?"
Men-- who own the media, own the corporations, own the government, own the black box elections, own the military/industrial/Congressional complex, own the banks, own the food/medical supply, own your imagination and your future.

"Who gets to define what we're allowed to think?"
Think? That sounds so heavy. How bout somethin "lighter"?

"My hope for a Womens' users group is that it will defy definitions."
By segregating yourself from the general population? Doesn't that suggest that regular life is male-- and women need a retreat to talk "girl talk" that men reject?

:smoke:

As I said, this came up right when I was so glad that women's voices/issues/threads were in the GD realm. So while I wish you well, my continuing comments reflect my disappoint in your withdrawal. To be "gals."

If you want to be fluffy, the Lounge is "protected space" as Eloriel said. If you run into dolts there, give em something to think about! Be women!

:kick:

[omega minimo]

73. "Fluff and garbage"? That's the Lounge!

Why do women want to pull out?

:hi:

[Longhorn]

78. For me, the point of any of the DU groups

is a quieter place to go where people who share interests can discuss topics over time. Most of them move very slowly, it's easy to use the "mark" feature to keep track of new posts, and you don't get the silly "drive by" comments from people who have no interest in your discussion, as often happens in the Lounge.

And the fact that a topic is being discussed in a group certainly does not keep the same discussion out of the Lounge. I don't see participating in a group as "pulling out" but serving as an additional venue. In my case, it's not pulling out as I rarely participate in the Lounge anyway so for me, a group is "pulling in!"

:hi:

[ElectroPrincess]

84. Women are a diverse group and especially in America ...

We defy sex role stereo-types.

Yes, I'm a proud Femi-Nazi woman who's been happily married to a Marine (now retired) for going on 23 years. He's so pro-women even if you girlie girls *insisted*, he would continue to address you as Ms. instead of Mrs. or Miss. And yeah, he's manly and we're both heterosexual.

----------------------------

But we defy stereotypes:

When he was stationed in Okinawa we shocked a whole lot of people in our family complex. For example, Hubby is from New Orleans and love to cook Creole Cuisine. He came home from a long 2 week exercise in the field. We had a flat tire. I told him, "Honey go up and shower, I'll change the tire if you would start the Package Jambalaya dinner?" Well of course that's a great deal and he took me up on the offer. :-)

While I was outside in the compound parking lot changing the tire, a couple of fellow Officer's wives approached me and one asked, "Is your husband still gone?" I retorted, "No, he's inside cooking dinner." :P

------------------------

The reason I told the silly, but true story is to drive home the point that WOMEN only have their biology in common in an enlightened society. Many men are staying home with the kids. Not a revolution but our society is still pro womens rights. Sex role stereotypes NO longer apply in today's world.

Well, our society will remain pro-women's rights if we INSIST on being integrated into every part of male oriented society.

We take a marked step back and open the door for the men to insist on opening a "girlie pic" forum in Mens' World if we DEMAND to have our own exclusive forum entitled Womens' World.

A very bad idea unless you wish to turn back the hands of time. :-)

[omega minimo]

91. Is that a Longhorn in your pocket or are you just

Just kidding!

Well said, LH, excellent points. I'm still new and don't have my star yet.

The initial thread and responses gushed "Girl talk" "frilly" "homey place to let your hair down" "girly girl" "make up" "GALS"!! Why reinforce stereotypes that ghettoize females? It appeared these "fluffy" attitudes were the focus of the separation.

Maybe, maybe not.

Thanks for your cool comments.

[readmoreoften]

99. So is this for feminine peoples or biological females?

Or only feminine biologically female people. Can DU transwomen go there to talk about make up tips and the issues that effect them? Can femme lesbians talk about their girlfriends? Would a butch lesbian join this group or should they maybe start an 'inclusive masculinity' group on DU?

Or is it a group for straight chicks?

Just wondering.

[NashVegas]

27. kick for the lunch crowd

[guinivere]

31. Sounds good to me.

At the risk of sounding too frilly, those are lovely shoes.

[Longhorn]

48. guinivere

We need you to join DU so you will be able to participate in the group! There's no minimum donation and it's good for a year. Hope you'll consider it! :hi:

[guinivere]

98. My dollars are few right now

In about a week or so I'll be able to send along a small donation.

[blondeatlast]

35. Hussy! Cover those ankles.

Typical DU female. Tsk, tsk!

[NashVegas]

37. I Could Never Walk in Those

for achilles heel, if nothing else :)

[Chovexani]

32. I'm for it.

I don't like frills unless they're black and attached to a PVC corset, but I'm for it nonetheless. ;)

[NashVegas]

38. Great - We Only Need One More

Speaking of corsets, I'm going to England in two months and came across Vivianne Westwood's lingerie shop in my research.

Way outta my price range, though.

[Kat45]

39. I think it's a good idea.

You can count me in.

[NashVegas]

40. thanks!

..

[Lone_Star_Dem]

41. I'm interested.

Add me to the list.


Great idea!

[NashVegas]

42. Yay! 10. Now Comes Charter Discussion

from an earlier post:

From the serious to the sublime, discussion of topics affecting and affected by women.

Disclaimer: While there's no ban on discussion of sexual politics, this group is not to be used as a platform for male-bashing.


What do you all think about men being welcome to post? I don't think it's realistic to order them to stay out and expect that to be adhered to. And who knows, it could add an interesting aspect to the conversation. That said, would men be welcome to start as well as respond in threads, or should we ladies claim control of the agenda? I lean against control, at least initially.

[blondeatlast]

44. Not a problem IMHO. Sometimes you can't tell anyway. nt

[NashVegas]

47. Yeah

In the online gaming world, I've known more than a few "cross dressers."

[Chovexani]

52. Hee! I was one for years

Got tired of guys constantly hitting on me on MUDs.

I've got no problem with men posting to the group, so long as they are respectful (but that goes for anyone, y'know?)

[NashVegas]

53. Well, There's Going to Be a Thread Right There

where we can have this discussion :)

[MooPie]

43. Count me in!

Do we now have ten?

[Hello_Kitty]

46. Sounds kind of like a Lounge for women

I'm down for that.

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. All Righty. A permanent girls' night out :^)

[Greylyn58]

50. I like the idea...n/t

[Pithlet]

54. I have a problem with your disclaimer re: men bashing.

It comes across as insulting, and it is unnecessary. It suggests that discussion of feminist issues naturally includes that, and anyone with that idea in mind would have to be told not to bash men. Otherwise, I have no problem with a women's forum discussing lighter issues. In fact, I'd participate without the disclaimer posted.

[NashVegas]

56. Clarity

It should be unnecessary. That's a great theory, but in reality, it happens all the time, especially when there's a discussion that touches on gender politics - going both ways, I'll add.

[Longhorn]

63. Snippets from other mission statements:

Atheists and Agnostics Group: "In this forum it is inappropriate to belittle those with religious beliefs or to engage in demeaning or hateful speech toward members of DU who may hold such beliefs."

Candidate supporters groups: "A few members have taken the candidate supporters' groups as an open invitation to fire up the old primary wars, and focus on the negative rather than the positive. It would be a real shame if these groups served as a catalyst to re-ignite the antagonism from the primary, and we hope everyone will make an effort to keep that from happening."

DU Jewish Group: "As per DU rules, bigotry (anti-Jewish or Anti-Arab) will not be tolerated. Discussions about Israel and her relations with other Arab nations should be respectful."

I read ATA every day and Skinner has asked that some of these statements be included to make it clear. I agree that it should go without saying, but if we don't make it clear in our mission statement, we may have a more difficult time evicting disruptors (unless they are violating DU rules, of course.)

[Pithlet]

71. I disagree.

There isn't a group that exists on DU that bashes men all the time. There just isn't. That feminists bash men is just a myth, like the "feminazis". I think we can have a light women's forum without insulting those for whom the feminist movement is important, and who might also want to join the proposed forum. Having that disclaimer says, to me, that there are those who are feminists who cannot engage in lighter discussions without bashing men. It's insulting.

[Pithlet]

70. It doesn't happen all the time.

That is just a myth propagated by people who are against the feminist movement. That we're all man haters. I'm sorry, but your disclaimer isunnecessary. Isn't bashing any group against DU rules? I think the inclusion of it is only sending a message, and not actually a rule. Why not put "No name calling" or "no flaming" or "no sex threads" in your disclaimer? All equally as unnecessary because they're already covered under DU rules. You don't include them. I wonder why you'd include man bashing? It looks like, at the very least, you're trying a little too hard to make the point that this is isn't supposed to be a feminism forum. At worst, it looks like an attack against the feminist movement.

Like I said, I have nothing against the idea of this forum. I just don't think we have to blast feminism and insult the movement in order to separate the proposed forum from the feminist movement.

[Longhorn]

75. Bashing may be against the rules

but you can tell from the other mission statements that Skinner required the disclaimers anyway.

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3349416&mesg_id=3356321 for an opposing view about male bashing.

[Pithlet]

92. That is one poster (edited with additional comments)

I hardly think that makes a trend. It doesn't support the case that feminists are, by their nature, male bashers.

As far as the other disclaimers, there is a difference. In the case of the religious boards, there has been a clear trend of religious bashing. There has not been a clear trend of constant men bashing on DU. There just hasn't.

Here's what I mean; say someone is starting a Liberal forum on a non-political message board. They put the disclaimer "no whining". Because that is a common assumption amongst non-political or right wingers, that liberals are just a bunch of whiners. It would be insulting to include such a disclaimer. That is what I'm getting at. It's insulting to include in a forum for women "No men bashing" as if that is such an inherent part of feminism and women's issues.

[NashVegas]

93. There's Been Some Back and Forth

A couple of months ago, someone posted a Lounge thread listing all the great things about being a guy. Which included some negatives on women. Someone got pissed off and in response came up with their own little list. Both threads got ugly in a hurry.

[Pithlet]

94. Yes, and I saw those.

They had nothing to do with discussion of feminism and women's issues, however. That was typical flame war DU style. While I don't necessarily think it was the intention of the person promoting this group, having the disclaimer against male bashing does make it seem as though male bashing is part and parcel of discussing women's issues. It propagates a myth that we should be working to dispel, whether the discussion is serious or not.

I'm just sick of the notion that feminism is anti-male, and anti-frills. I'm sick of people in real life being surprised that I'm a feminist because I don't look the part. Because I'm married with two boys, how can I be anti-male? And, I'm wearing makeup and heels, and regularly get my hair dyed at a salon. They're always perplexed. It's because of the false impression that many have of women's issues politically. I think that the disclaimer promotes those myths, whether intended or not.

[NashVegas]

95. Fair Enough

I see where you're coming from. You may call it pre-judgement. I think of it as pre-caution. As the admins have yet to make the call, do you think they would look on that proviso favorably, or unfavorably?

[Pithlet]

96. I don't know

I'll admit, I made my concerns known to them. But, it's not the end of the world. I just won't participate in the forum with that disclaimer in the charter. There have been other decisions in the past I don't agree with. I'll live :)

[omega minimo]

55. You go, girls-- if you must

My concern is that you will ghettoize yourselves, and maybe not be around when we need your voices on threads in the general areas.

Or that things you discuss that concern the general population are hidden away. That's maybe the idea-- a female "safehouse." I hope it is empowering --to borrow the old term-- and that you will come out refreshed and powdered, in your killer shoes and frilly PVC corsets to
:kick:

I'll come visit your "Women's World" (Pink Ghetto?) when I have my star. Meanwhile, let me say this once more:

"This week some women-centric subjects showed up in the general sections and it was GREAT to have more visibility and more voices chiming in."

This is why it is disappointing to see you retreat-- but I wish you ALL the best.

[omega minimo]

57. but before you do, check this

The New World Order and The War On Women

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3333521&mesg_id=3333521&page=

You can let your hair down, too!

[NashVegas]

61. I Did, I Did

not enough text there to really say a whole lot.

[ElectroPrincess]

68. I love the way you think omega minimo :-)

If we (progressives) let the RW nut cases outlaw abortion and get their teeth into prohibiting ANY federal support of birth control, I think that the younger women ... those who are proud to call themselves ... girlie <shudder in utter disappointment and disbelief) will get a taste of those of us women who fought the odds in the 1960s and 1970s.

I busted my butt and kept my moral behavior beyond reproach as an Army Cadet and a Woman Officer in the late 70s and early 80s. The younger women today have no idea how women in the workplace were OPENLY shunned in male fields during that time. It was nothing to have a troop say to me, "I'm not used to following a woman, and I'm not going to start now."

All I'm saying is that I didn't train myself physically to run a 6 minute mile and tolerate all kinds of hyper-focus in the US Army for the women after me to return to ENJOY being submissive to men. And that is exactly what "girlie girl" means.

No, let's not segregate the sexes? It was only during the 1970s that the Army integrated training. The Marine Corps still refuses to train women and men together at boot camp or OCS.

IMO If you want to encourage a return of a horrible past - forced female submission - then create a women's only forum. If we as "a group" - don't fight to keep ourselves INTEGRATED into every male aspect of society, we will be set aside in our own little corner (Forum). And that one area will LATER be "the only one" allowed for us.

Please don't forget, women still are not treated fairly in many male oriented fields.

Nope, no way do I personally want to separate myself from society.

IMO, it's the FULL INTEGRATION of women in EVERY aspect of society is the answer. We can help society appreciate positive "feminine" characteristics such as nurturing and mediation is the answer ... much better than "bar fights and starting wars." ;)

[omega minimo]

86. I'll see you and Eloriel in the Egalitarian RocknRoll Soul Sister Hut

" I think that the younger women ... those who are proud to call themselves ... girlie <shudder in utter disappointment and disbelief) will get a taste of those of us women who fought the odds in the 1960s and 1970s."
--Young women may not realize the indoctrination back into "male gaze" thinking they have been subjected to since the 80's. Even with the epidemic of anorexia/bulimia. Terry Schiavo, anyone? Her story is an excellent example of how "our" issues are of general importance to DU.
--It's BIG BUSINESS! They've gotta keep you buying their products for PROBLEMS YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW YOU HAD and keep you fixated on what men think about you and on anything but the conditions of your life imposed on you based on GENDER.

"All I'm saying is that I didn't train myself physically to run a 6 minute mile and tolerate all kinds of hyper-focus in the US Army for the women after me to return to ENJOY being submissive to men. And that is exactly what "girlie girl" means."
--Young women may not realize the indoctrination back into cliched black and white "heavy" or "fluffy" thinking. YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHOOSE ONE OR THE OTHER. THAT IS FEMINISM.
--And in the military we have current stories of women being subjected to gang rape with no recourse and no accountabilty in the chain of command. You've come a long way, baby?

"IMO, it's the FULL INTEGRATION of women in EVERY aspect of society is the answer. We can help society appreciate positive "feminine" characteristics such as nurturing and mediation is the answer ... much better than "bar fights and starting wars." "
--Since its just us girls here, :hi: let me say there's a surprising amount of macho posturing and stereotyped tough guy crap on DU. Maybe the fluffy girls in the GD can balance out the "let's kick some ass fuck yeah have another beer" contingent.

Please?

BTW, fewer women in GD mean less opportunity for all the cool, sane, kind, balanced, reasonable, interested men at DU to hear your voice.

United we stand. This life or death battle of politics is founded on sexual politics. Isn't it.

[Longhorn]

62. I belong to about a dozen groups.

I use the "mark" function after I've read the new threads in a group. Very few groups have more than a dozen new posts in a day. Some groups have NO new posts for days at a time. Those members who frequent GD and other forums will still have plenty of time to discuss issues there as well. We're not going away, I promise! :D

[Cleita]

58. How long have you been at DU?

Women's issues are tolerated here because they are lefties, but not that welcome.

[NashVegas]

59. Going on Four Years

And I'm sorry you see it that way.

[Cleita]

60. Good luck then.

I guess as long as I've been here. I didn't mean to put Skinner and Co. down but I think they still do not trust us.

[Eloriel]

65. Hell, they don't even LIKE us

let alone respect us.

:hi:

[Donailin]

66. sure why not? except

the thing about no men bashing. How about deadbeat-dad bashing?

[politicat]

72. count me in.

I'm somewhat in love with Private Life and Mothers Who Think over at Salon's Tabletalk, but MWT is too ... parenting oriented for this kidless chick, and PL can get strange.

I'd like one on DU.

Politicat

[ElectroPrincess]

81. Go For It ! But Please Be Advised of the Following Truism ...

For every reaction (Womans' World), there's an equal but opposite reaction (Mens' World).

I submit you (the majority of women DU members) will NOT be pleased with the inevitable blow-back that will be within the contents of their "separate but equal" Mens'World Forum.

Hint: Can we say "Tittie Bar"? :P

[politicat]

88. Actually, I do recognize it.

I also recognize that we currently have a degree of that running about as it is. So a Women's Hut is a welcome relief...

[ElectroPrincess]

89. I don't see it that way. But I'll relent. Sincere best wishes :-)

Perhaps I'm a jaded ole' broad.
I hope that I'm just being paranoid and it works. :hi:

[JI7]

83. will there be discussion of fashion and makeup type stuff ?

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

87. Great idea! n/t

[NashVegas]

97. Admins Have Approved

Yay admins.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=120x32418