Can one bring a hidden recording device into a recruiting office?

[FlemingsGhost]

I'm hoping to write an investigative piece on military recruitment. I will pose as a prospective recruit.

Would I be breaking the law?

[Walt Starr]

1. Shouldn't be a problem. Reporters record with hidden devices

all the time.

[FlemingsGhost]

2. I know that one must ask permission to record on the telephone

Does the same apply?

[Walt Starr]

8. Depends upon the state

It varies state by state for telephone conversations.

Have you ever seen a hidden camera report on your local news?

[FlemingsGhost]

11. Yes! I believe I have.

Thanks, Walt.

[Walt Starr]

21. Then you might want to dig deeper on the laws of your state

If you had never seen a hidden camera report, I'd say you'd be pretty much screwed.

You might be able to bring a hidden camera in a bag but not a voice recorder alone.

[seabeyond]

13. lousianna, texas? as long as one party knows there is a recorder

it is ok. now isnt that the stupidest. the one recording, knows he is recording, ergo ok to record a person unknowning. that is just funny to me. i guess it is to cover police cant tap a phone

[seabeyond]

14. dupe

[fob]

62. I don't know if this applies to all States, but you can EITHER inform the

other party (which is why some phone calls to businesses have that "this call may be recorded for improving customer service") OR there can be a "beep" every 10? or 30? seconds which is also supposed to let you know one of the parties is recording. The other thing you have going for you is the Recruitment Center would be considered government property, right? That means somewhere down the line YOU are that recruiter's boss.

Much Success!

[LoZoccolo]

3. It's a class four felony in the state of Illinois.

I had an idea once and didn't go through with it because of this.

[FlemingsGhost]

5. Thanks.

:hi:

[shadowknows69]

55. it's probably illegal to record without their knowledge

but that doesn't mean you can't accurately recount the events in words. Take mental notes. Paraphrase where necessary and write it like it like it happens. Don't make up quotes if you don't have them exactly.

[liberaltrucker]

4. I don't think so

You'd be talking with a government representative in an unclassified capacity. Good luck? Expose these liars:toast:

[Liberty Belle]

6. Depends. Some states require permission first.

[ultraist]

10. yes, state laws vary on this

In some states, it's illegal to tape record someone without their knowledge but it's legal to videotape them.

You could take in a bag with a small hole for the camera lens and video tape the whole transaction.

[purduejake]

7. No problem.

I believe there is only a problem with recording over the telephone. I always carry a recorder and have used it immediately after car accidents and in my apartment manager's office. After talking with an attorney, there seemed to be no legal issues... at least in Indiana.

[democracyindanger]

9. Local laws

Some states allow it, others don't. Either way, be prepared to be bored out of your skull for a couple hours. Recruiters go to top-flight sales schools like IBM's. It's like somebody trying to sell you a car you have no interest in.

[liberaltrucker]

12. But

a military recruiter is a representative of the Federal gov. State laws may not apply.

[ultraist]

15. good point, didn't that author tape Bush without his permission?

[democracyindanger]

18. Was before he was selected in '99.

[liberaltrucker]

19. * wasn't

"prez" at the time. Remember a few days ago, DeLay was secretly recorded by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. No one raised any legal issues about that.

[democracyindanger]

16. That's a good point

And the recruiting office would be considered federal property, too.

Well, I stand by the bored-out-of-your-skull part, though.

[FlemingsGhost]

17. Any ideas as to what kind of criminal background I should present?

Just looking for ideas.

[liberaltrucker]

22. Tell 'em

you're a fine upstanding citizen ready to fight for Big Oil:hippie:

[ProgressiveConn]

27. Instead of going in with a criminal background do this.

Play the recruiter like he is trying to play you. Use a sob story for why you're there. "Lost my job; got kids to feed." He'll try to pick up an interest of yours and convince you the Marines are the way for you to succeed in that interest. Music, athletics, writing, they will use anything. Just go along and make them feel like you are really interested and keep getting them to say more and more. After he just KNOWS he has sold you start shifting the discussion to how you want to join but you're not sure about going to Iraq. Ask about the possibility of going to Afghanistan etc. Odds are he will tell you how its a really low risk that you'll be sent to Iraq etc.

[FlemingsGhost]

31. My intent is to be encouraged to lie regarding personal info.

But I think perhaps I'll broaden my scope.

Thanks for the ideas.

[cynatnite]

34. Depends on the personal info

When it comes to breaking the law, they will absolutely not ask or encourage it be buried. That's too big of a deal and can bring loads of trouble.

When it comes to medical issues, they're not going to care about the tonsils that got pulled when you were ten or mundane matters such as that. The big stuff...absolutely!

Keep this in mind:

When recruiters get the people to sign on the dotted line, it doesn't mean it's a done deal. There is a place called a MEPS station where thorough physicals are done as well as other testing. There is still more to be done before being shipped off to boot camp. At the MEPS station, if there is anything that could keep a person out of the military, it WILL be found there. I guarantee it.

On edit: MEPS stands for Military Entrance Processing Station

[FlemingsGhost]

37. What if I introduced the potential of mental illness?

Say a low grade bout with depression.

[cynatnite]

39. They'll be wary

They'll want more information such as if you're on meds, seeing anyone and whatever information they can get.

Most of these guys know that there is the potential of having to go to Iraq or Afghanistan. Who wants to put a weapon in the hands of someone with mental problems no matter matter how minor?

They will tread carefully if you say that. These guys have very strict guidelines and while they love to go over their quota, they will not open themselves up for anything which could get them in trouble.

I know my ears would perk if I was looking at someone who would be picking up a loaded gun once in basic training.

[FlemingsGhost]

42. Perfect!

Thanks, again.

[signmike]

40. Personally, I'd have to say I think it's more like someone wanting to

sell you a shit sandwich.

Having been there.

[cynatnite]

20. Why not ask former recruits?

I was one many years ago and I can tell you all the hoops they jump through backflips they will do to get one signed up. I know for a fact it hasn't changed all that much.

I would tread carefully with this because I don't believe this would be a state issue you would have to deal with. It could cross over into federal areas.

The military takes a harsh stand when it comes to these things and if they believe you crossed a line they will not hesitate to squash you like a bug.

[liberaltrucker]

23. Not if he uses a pseudonym. nt

[FlemingsGhost]

25. Oh, that's a given!

:hi:

(on edit: there will be a byline, though. Hmmmm ...)

[liberaltrucker]

26. Thought it would be

Good luck. Please post you results. :yourock:

[FlemingsGhost]

29. Thanks for your help, and support.

And a belated welcome to you, trucker.

[liberaltrucker]

33. Thanks for welcome

Just be careful. You have millions of real Americans on you side. I admire your "cajones". I'm an old fart, so all I can do is encourage you young folks.

[FlemingsGhost]

24. I'll interview both current and former military recruits.

One has already told an interesting story. I want to hammer home the point by catching 'em in act

[GreyRoofoo]

28. What Branch will you be visiting?

I'm just curious because the army and marines are really trying to step up recruitment, while the Air Force and Navy have more than enough, heck the Air Force is considering raising the standards for people.

[FlemingsGhost]

32. I will visit several offices, concentrating on army and marines

Might even go into a bordering state, as well.

Thus, the legal concerns.

[cynatnite]

30. In the act of what?

There are recruiters who do take advantage, but not as a whole. A lot of these guys got in trouble a long time ago for lying to recruits. There was a major overhaul of recruiting practices as a result.

When I enlisted, which was in '86, those guys held nothing back when it came to training, postings and the military life. I was equipped with knowledge.

I knew Marine Corps recruiters who were very gung ho guys and worked their asses off to meet their quotas, but were still careful to follow the guidelines in recruiting.

Recruiters are trained to sell military to recruits. They learn the right talk and they also are trained on what NOT to say.

I'm telling you, speaking of my own experience, tread carefully with this. If you are going to do this, maybe going to one recruiting station as yourself, ask your questions. Don't lie.

After you do your research, if you still feel the need to follow through with this, BE CAREFUL! It might not hurt to research what you are doing more thoroughly than asking DU. YOu could be crossing over into federal territory since these guys are under the protection of the Pentagon.

There are recruiting stations in thousands of cities and towns. Keep that in mind as well. One recruiting station not following the regs will not taint all of them.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but you are looking at more trouble for yourself than for them.

[FlemingsGhost]

35. See post #31.

Thanks for the info, cynatnite.

I've only just begun my research, and thought I'd introduce the idea to my fellow DUers, first.

[Journeyman]

36. Well, these are the frontmen for those who officially carry the guns...

so, knock yourself out.

[x-g.o.p.er]

38. Just ask those that have enlisted.

Like me. They will lie like dogs and tell you what you want to hear so they can get your name on the dotted line.

There are two types of recruiters, liars and bullshitters. They need to get a certain amount of folks signed each month, and some month they focus on certain jobs more than others.

If they need cooks, they'll tell you that cook is the greatest job you could hope to have, blah blah blah. Whatever job that is needs warm bodies is the job they will push on the person that walks through the office, unless that person has some knowledge of the military or has an idea of what they want to do.

[FlemingsGhost]

41. I can be a pretty damned good bullshitter myself

Surely you've read some of my previous posts!

:evilgrin:

Seriously, I'm not acting as a "journalist" here. This endeavor is meant to expose, and discredit. Creative direct-action activism.

Thanks for your post, x-g.o.p.er

[GreyRoofoo]

43. The recruiter I went to was pretty straighforward

Albeit he was Air Force and he had over twice his quota (Or so he said.......)

Anyways the real problem is that people often don't do any research before signing away 4 years (plus the 4 years of "inactive reserve") of their lives. Many often do it on impulse.

[cynatnite]

45. Doing it on impulse is the biggest mistake most make

One thing I've noticed with a lot of the people I served with is that because they're not happy or it wasn't as expected is the first blame lies with the recruiter.

It's easy to say 'the recruiter bullshitted me'. If a person goes in without researching and doesn't ask the right questions, they are bound to find disappointment.

And you're right. They are signing away a portion of their lives and I really don't think a lot of them have any concept what that means. If anyone is going to join, look at it like getting married because you practically are.

I thought about it for two years before joining and I can honestly say I do not regret one day of my service. It was one of the best choices I made in my life.

[FlemingsGhost]

48. There is a chance this story turns out positive for local recruiters

I will publish it, anyway.

I expect a mixed bag. Either way, I feel the young men and woman of my city, and the surrounding area, should know what is in store if they enter the door.

[FlemingsGhost]

46. Do they ask if one has experience with firearms?

I'm considering giving them the notion that I am a dead-eye.

I want these folks salivating. Then I'll present a "problem," that may or may not spur them to bend the rules, a bit.

[cynatnite]

49. Usually not

But I have doubts you'll get the kind of reactions you expect. They salivate over potential recruits who have a high school diploma, medically and mentally fit and have clean criminal records. That's what they love.

They want recruits with no problems in their backgrounds.

They wind up with ones who have medical problems and have criminal records. They also wind up with ones that have not graduated from high school or no GED.

Before a recruit goes to the MEPS station they will run a background check.

Be prepared for a recruiter to pull out forms to start the process as soon as you utter out of your mouth you want to join.

They do want to make their quotas, but they will not open themselves up by even urging in the slightest for you to keep quiet about a mental illness no matter how minor it may be.

You have to realize that you could find yourself in hot water and up on federal criminal charges if you walk in there with a recorder strapped to your chest.

The majority of recruiters have been in the military for a number of years. They are well experienced and some of them have even been drill sergeants. What I'm saying here is: You can't bullshit a bullshitter. A lot of these guys can smell one a mile away. They'll know if you're legit just by your questions and they'll be able to detect how sincere you are.

Treading carefully in something like this is a definite must.

[FlemingsGhost]

50. EMT training might get the juices flowing, huh?

Thank you for all of your help, cynatnite. (And your concern.)
I am certainly seeking legal counseling on this matter. I'm not an idiot. And if anything, I am meticulously thorough.

As for shining these folks on, I think I can pull it off. Maybe that's my ego talking, but if anything I'll have had wasted these folks time. Perhaps sparing some poor naive kid, a world of hurt.

peace

[cynatnite]

52. Thanks for easing my mind

I was troubled by your post and I'm glad you're being careful. I do have a tendency to be protective of the military, but I am also realistic. There is some bad and that's what usually makes news.

I hope you will share your work once it's finished.

Good luck!

[SouthernDem2004]

63. No. Be careful with stuff like that. They may think you are a wack job.

[anti_shrub]

44. I know someone you could talk to

If you want to interview people.

One of my best friends got BS'ed into the Army, promises of working in a field he liked with all his student loads repaid.

He's 2-3 years into his hitch now and can't wait to leave: he's working a job he really doesn't care for and he hasn't seen dime one of all the promised money. I haven't even seen him in over a year since he can't afford a plane ride home.

[FlemingsGhost]

47. What state is he from?

I would like to present a local-interest piece with area men and woman telling their stories. That way, local boys and girls might think twice.

Thanks.

[RiDuvessa]

51. Before I entered the military,

I visited recruiters from all four branches. Not one of them lied. Sometimes, when people decide they don't like the military, the recruiter is the easiest one to blame.

Also, there are people who decide to lie on their own, and blame the recruiters when they get caught. Some people really want to join

When you walk into a recruiting office, you have to remember that they are trying to sell you something. Just like a car dealer, or an insurance salesman. You are going to sign a contract. Read it before you sign it. Take it to a lawyer if you want. Do research and know what you are signing. I did. Some of these guys need to take a little personal responsibility. You have to be prepared to ask the right questions. You have to do research.

It really annoys me when I hear people say things like "My recruiter didn't tell me I might have to shoot people" or "I didn't realize I might have to go to war, my recruiter didn't tell me." You recruiter shouldn't have to tell you things like that, you are joining the MILITARY!

Now, I am not saying that recruiters never lie, or withhold info. I do think that most are fairly honest, and they do have extensive rules governing them. I know a recruiter that was reduced in rank and fined for shady recruiting practices.

I'm just saying that people need to take personal responsibility when they sign contracts. Nobody is forced into the military right now, there is no draft yet.

[FlemingsGhost]

53. Was the U.S. engaged in extensive military action?

Were we scrambling for boots on the ground?

To steal the opposition's line: "If they are doing nothing wrong, there's nothing to be worried about."

See post #48

[RiDuvessa]

56. No, I enlisted prior to Iraq.

That being said, in the late nineties and prior to 9/11 the military was having an extremely hard time enlisting and keeping qualified individuals. The economy was up and and military has a hard time recruiting when the economy is good.

With regards to your claim that you will also write the story if there is positive results for the recruiters, I direct your attention to post #41. Your stated intentions there imply that you have already made up your mind about what recruiters are and what they do. If you don't get the results you expect and still publish the story, good on you. However, I get the feeling that no matter what happens, in your eyes, the recruiters will come out looking bad.

Another thing you might want to consider besides the legal implications of secretly recording conversations is the legal ramifications of lying to a government official. Be sure that you do not write anything false on an official form or document. Falsifying info on a official government document is at least a misdemeanor, and may even be a felony. If the recruiter gives you form to fill out, take a good look, particularly in the bottom left hand corner. If there is something that says DD-form such and such or the like, do not fill it out. Just some advice.

[FlemingsGhost]

57. Thanks, I don't plan on signing anything.

Except, maybe, a paycheck.

[cynatnite]

54. Well said!

I wished I could blame the recruiter for my first tour being in Germany, but I can't since I didn't want to go and he couldn't promise me that. :)

[SouthernDem2004]

64. Same experience here.

[RiDuvessa]

58. Here's some info on the Federal policy

"Federal law permits hidden taping as long as one person being recorded knows about it. Privacy laws in a dozen states, including Maryland (where Ms. Tripp lives), require that both parties in a recorded phone call know they're being taped. Some state laws impose similar restrictions on taping confidential face-to-face conversations"

the link <http://www.careerjournaleurope.com/myc/legal/19980202-lublin.html>

I guess it is to prevent a third party from recording a private conversation. In other words, you could record your conversation with the recruiter, but you could not record the conversation between the recruiter and another prospect, unless you had that prospect's consent.

[FlemingsGhost]

59. That is my general understanding, as well.

Called the ACLU, and they seem to think it is perfectly legal.

A qualified attorney is supposed to get back to me ...

[LoganW]

60. How can we tell you if you're breaking the law

if you don't tell us the state?

[FlemingsGhost]

61. *** Follow-Up *** ---- It's a go!

I am free to record my conversations with anyone I choose.

[SouthernDem2004]

65. What are you expecting to find? If its something you can use against

the military I am afraid you will be disappointed. They are not the evil people some would like you to believe.
Here is what will happen:

1) Meet and greet with the recruiter. He will tell you what enlistment benefits etc you would get for joining. He will try and sell the military life.

2) You will take the ASFAB. They will then try to stick you in a job the branch needs filled. You can actually choose which ever one you qualify for.

Thats about it. They will not make any goofy promises you see in movies. They will not outright lie to you. If you start mentioning how much you like guns or anything like that they will probably direct you somewhere else.

[Walt Starr]

66. Report whatever you find out

If it makes the recruiters look good, bad, or indifferent it does not matter. Report it as it occurred.