How the Working Class Views Immigration

[QC]

I live in a town on the Florida coast that is undergoing a serious real estate boom. Snowbirds are flooding into the area and buying every house in sight, and then there's the hundreds of condo units going up at prices ranging from $400,000 to $2,000,000 and the beach houses going for as much as $10,000,000. Even fifty miles inland farmland is being replaced by pricey McMansion developments for (mostly) winter residents.

These prices might not seem like much to those of you who live in, say, L.A., but this is the Florida panhandle. To give you some perspective, the average income here is only about $25,000, but thanks to the snowbird invasion, the average house price is $250,000.

Think about that one a minute. The average home costs ten times the average income. By any standard, working people here are being ground into the dirt. Many are quite literally being driven out of their own hometown by rising housing costs. What makes it worse is that pretty much our entire economy here is tourism-related. We're talking minimum wage jobs waiting tables and cleaning hotel rooms. That means that blue-collar jobs that pay a living wage are at a real premium here, almost impossible to find.

Here's where we get to immigration. You would think that a mammoth construction boom like this one would be good for local blue-collar workers, right? After all, it was not very long ago that construction was considered a really good gig among working people. I remember being a working-class kid in the 70s and hearing about how lucky people were to have construction jobs. Most were union and paid the current equivalent of $20 an hour and bennies. But has this orgy of building in my town made any difference for blue-collar workers here?

Not at all, because they are not being hired for those jobs. The construction companies are bringing in crews of immigrant workers, paying them so little they cannot even afford hotel rooms here, and benefits, of course, are out of the question. The big developers are making out like bandits, but working people here are getting nothing--other than being priced out of their own homes, of course.

Can you see why they might feel some resentment? This is what immigration looks like from the bottom of the economic heap. Leaving aside the question of whether their resentment is misdirected, it is perfectly understandable why these people will not see mass immigration as a good thing.

That perspective, the view of those who are living on the edge financially and sinking fast, is too often left out of discussions of this issue.

My question is, how can we manage immigration in such a way as to protect blue-collar workers here and allow new people to come to America and improve their lives? There's got to be a better way than the current one.

[Zuni]

1. I am in total agreement

we cannot have unlimited immigration for many reasons, among them being the lack of good jobs available.

[incapsulated]

2. I keep trying to make this point...

Too many people, especially those who are not directly confronted with this because of where they live, still think of illegal immigrants as migrant farm workers or something.

They are now being hired for jobs that the working class always depended on, especially in hard times. And in numbers that are really straining the local economies that have to pay for the schooling and healthcare of these people, who obviously don't pay taxes.

[Tansy_Gold]

17. They DO pay taxes.

Every time they go into a store, they pay sales tax.

Every time they put gas in their car, they pay taxes.

Every time they get a paycheck -- and most of them do get real paychecks == they pay taxes. Many of them don't file tax returns and therefore don't get refunds of overpayments.

Every time they pay rent, they're paying part of the landlord's property tax.

[incapsulated]

77. Sales taxes?

So do tourists, but they don't expect us to pay for their healthcare or teach their kids.

Any taxes that are taken out of their "paychecks" are illegal and kept by their employers, these people do not have SS numbers.

[Tansy_Gold]

78. I hate to tell you this, but many workers for construction companies

are legal, and they do have taxes taken out and their employers do deposit them as required by law.

I've done their payrolls. I've signed their I-9s. I've made the tax deposits.

There are laws and sometimes they even get followed.

[incapsulated]

80. If they are "legal" workers

Then they aren't the topic of this conversation.

No one said that all construction workers are illegal aliens!

[sharonking21]

165. Please see my comments re: school

property taxes and their relationship to rent in a previous thread. Further, the sales taxes you seem to think are so negligible are the foundation of the tax structure in Texas, both for state and municipal funding (other than our gradual state overdependence on, mmm, shall we say, sucking on the federal tit to avoid raising state taxes). So the situation is not as clear-cut as you seem to think.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1696018&mesg_id=1698830

Further, all the evils of regressive taxation that I mention in this rather long comment apply just as much (indeed more) to our own citizen working class and working poor.

I would agree that undocumented workers do not contribute to federal funding, in the main.

[solinvictus]

3. You make immigration difficult as hell..

that's how you manage it. If we have to deport masses of illegals; fine. I could live with it. We also need to fine the hell out of companies who use illegals for labor. Illegal immigration has killed American blue collar workers, but the Volvo driving, Starbucks sipping upper middle class could care less, and that's on both sides of the aisle.

[PsN2Wind]

5. There does often seem to be a lot more angst

over the H1B visa workers than the illegals that do take those jobs that citizens are willing to do. But they'll yell at you if you tell the IT people that they should lower their wage demands to compete.
Only the blue-collar types are supposed to compete against foreign labor.

[QC]

7. Interesting point.

I remember being lectured a few years back by friends in the tech industry about the wonders of the invisible hand and how those dumb steelworkers should have "upgraded their skillsets" and all that. Now that their own jobs have been sold out from under them, it's an outrage, of course.

[solinvictus]

8. H1B

The bulk of IT people at my last job were H1B's even as American tech workers were wanting for jobs.

[PsN2Wind]

11. And I sympathize as much with an IT worker

that loses or is unable to find a job due to the influx of workers on these visas. However it seems that a lot of the posters here still claim that illegals take only those jobs that US citizens will not do. As a now retired person that has worked in a packing house and for many years in construction, I know that is untrue.

Edit, stupid spelling mistake

[incapsulated]

10. That's not exactly fair..

There is no way an IT person can compete at any living wage with what they will pay someone in India.

There were many, many, people in IT that would have gladly taken a pay cut rather than lose their jobs, permanently. But that was never really discussed as an option, because between the benefits that the companies would have to pay, and a living wage for a skilled worker, they would still be paid so much more than the outsourced worker.

I don't see this as any different really, or some class warfare between IT workers and construction workers. It's a race to the bottom with everyone left in the dirt except the companies that make the profit.

[QC]

12. You're right--if you work for a paycheck, you're a prole.

Too many Americans aren't aware of that and believe that if they wear a white shirt and work in the office then they are a class apart from those grubby guys out on the loading dock. But the truth is that in the eyes of the company they are both equally expendable.

It's time for a little solidarity.

[incapsulated]

The IT people got hit hard...

And of course the irony of it all was that all those people who lost their manufacturing jobs to outsourcing where encouraged to train for jobs in...

IT.

Everyone is expendable, and if they can figure out a way to outsource a job, they will, including using illegal immigrants.

[Nobody]

195. That's true

You could be the best auto mechanic in the history of the combustion engine or the best carpenter since the dawn of civilization and it means nothing. They'll hire the one who will work for next to nothing if they can get away with it.

I used to be in IT. I lost my job because they had to lay someone off and I was the most skilled, had the most industry certifications, the best relationship with the customers, was the most requested tech, and my wages reflected that. It was the company's own damn fault. They had a pay for certifications benefit that I, in my stupidity and lack of long range planning, took advantage of.

I trained myself out of a job, and thanks to outsourcing, in 2 years only got 5 interviews, despite one interviewer telling me I had an excellent resume and impressive qualifications after the two hour interview. I did not get the job.

Oddly enough, my current job has an IT dept that is woefully understaffed and we get no tech service until a week or two later. So guess who is the de facto IT person. Nobody.

[PsN2Wind]

15. And equally there is no way in Hell

That a citizen trying to live the "American dream" can compete with illegal immigrants that will work for a third or less of scale. But many here say the borders should be open to all those just trying to improve their lot in life.

[ultraist]

9. Classist much?

"Starbucks sipping upper middle class could care less, and that's on both sides of the aisle."

That's not true.

There are a number of ways to ensure Americans have adequate employment and support programs. Scapegoating immigrants is not one of them. As I see it, one of the biggest problems is giving big corps, who outsource, welfare so that their CEOs can rake in 20 Million+ salaries. The monetary incentives to outsource should be halted. The real drain on the welfare system are the big corp welfare queens.

http://www.corporations.org/welfare/#globe

The $150 billion for corporate subsidies and tax benefits eclipses the annual budget deficit of $130 billion. It's more than the $145 billion paid out annually for the core programs of the social welfare state: Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), student aid, housing, food and nutrition, and all direct public assistance (excluding Social Security and medical care)."

Top Welfare Queens: ALL OF THESE CORPS OUTSOURCE

Co/amount recieved 90-94/no of jobs

GM $110,600,000 -104,000
IBM 58,000,000 -100,000
AT&T 35,000,000 -1,077 * #
GE 25,400,000 -80,000
Amoco 23,600,000 -8,300 *
DuPont 15,200,000 -29,961
Motorola 15,100,000 +9,600 *
Citicorp 9,600,000 -15,700


Other programs to lift people out of poverty should be adequately funded. Lastly, we should begin enforcing border control and get a grip on the influx of new immigrants.

Rather than demonizing the mexican construction worker or lawn service maintenace laborer, it's more appropriate to look to the root cause of our job shortage problem: THE BIG CORPS and the BUSH tax & welfare policies.

[solinvictus]

19. Immigrants are still a big part of the problem..

I understand about corporate welfare and the problems there, but we are not enforcing our own immigration law. We need to make that the prime priority before addressing corporate reform. If the Minutemen or others take the issue to the forefront, more power to them. Honestly, I feel for these immigrants, but I am not willing to surrender American jobs to illegals. They need to be deported, period.

Classist? I suppose a bit, considering I've seen many of the Volvo liberal set here (Birmingham) using lawn services with primarily Hispanic labor. Hey, as long as the upper 2-5% of the economy can have cheap gardeners and domestic help, eh?

[ultraist]

68. I strongly disagree

that targetting undocumentated workers is or should be the "prime priority" over corporate reform.

Cut corp welfare, at least to corps that outsource, FIX the elitist tax system that overburdens the middle class and benefits the wealthy corps and CEOs, & start REGULATING corps and demand accountability. Situations such as ENRON are far more damaging to Americans that mexican lawn workers. FUND SOCIAL PROGRAMS and END THE WAR.

HUGE tax cuts and loopholes for corps and the wealthy have a much bigger impact on the middle and lower classes than a mexican waitress.

[Biased Liberal Media]

72. This is the TRUE issue here...

We also need to fine the hell out of companies who use illegals for labor.

That's the BIGGEST issue that I'm seeing here today.

[Extend a Hand]

4. Isn't the problem the construction companies

that are hire illegals and pay low wages rather than those seeking to better lives?

I grew up in central Florida, I remember the tent camps for the migrant workers picking fruit. The companies are the problem not the immigrants.

[necso]

13. And what do you suggest?

More of this phony-baloney "we're going to hold the companies responsible" bullshit? It hasn't worked (it is currently illegal to use illegal labor) -- and it isn't going to work.

The corporations (and the rich and the powerful more generally) are like some massive dark star, pulling everything around them in. And this perspective dictates that the efficient, effective and timely plan to deal with this is to cut them off from the supply of the "material" that they grow on, in order to slow the growth of their power, if nothing more.

[K-W]

58. That is a horrible argument.

If we dont have the power to hold companies responsible, where on god's green earth are we going to get the power to shut the supply?

[necso]

83. Ah, through the electorate.

What? You don't think that they see how well the current policy (companies supposedly being held responsible for employing illegal labor) works?

What? You don't think that they are ready to try something else?

And what? You think that we have any significant chance of directly controlling what the powerful do -- at least in the short term? How so? Even if we pass new laws, then it will come down to enforcement -- enforcement by the same means that is currently failing to control corporate behavior -- and enforcement that will never be adequately funded to police the entire country. (So we will end up policing borders anyway, along with "regulating" companies -- dooming both to failure.)

If we make it in the interests of the foreign governments, those that let this illegal labor pour in, to do otherwise, then this would be a good start on the problem of illegal labor.

And maybe we can eventually stop the corporations (etc) from predating on the nations that furnish this illegal labor, and thereby start to address the problem at the roots.

But if we do not regain power, then we can do nothing. And tilting directly against the corporations (which will be labeled as "socialism", etc, by our opponents), is no way to get the masses involved on our side.

And, of course, we are more likely to be prevented from doing anything effective about illegal labor by those who label us as "racist" than otherwise. This label plays to the guilt of many -- especially those who know that in their hearts that they are racist -- and can, therefore, be led around by the nose because of it.

But then, that's exactly the point. You only have to consider how quickly the neocons resort to using "un-PC" labels against us to realize the power of this tool against us.

As for myself, I have no guilt in this area, and so I am therefore largely immune to such manipulation.

[K-W]

129. Regulating corporations is not so difficult

if the working class is organized and concious

[necso]

133. True,

laws can be passed easily enough, if one is in power -- although enforcement can be another issue, and this is something that needs constant supervision and attention -- and often more resources than people will readily agree to allocating.

And if you can convince me that some practical (and rapid) means exists for first making conscious (in your terms -- I might say "awakening from sleep" -- but these can be taken the same way, if the reader is fair-minded), then educating and organizing the working class (in order to serve the common interests of the people -- and to uphold our ideals), then I might be for it. But if it's some form of the same old, same old whatever, then I probably have been there and done that.

What I care about is what works -- and how this "work" can be done governed by principle -- and while serving and furthering ideals.

But I take my direction from what I see around me... and you almost always march towards the sound of the guns -- and you often end up trying to knock out (or seize) your opponent's.

[K-W]

154. What works is organizing the working class.

It works everywhere all the time. It is why we fought the vietnam war, it is why we waged wars in south and central america. It is why the conservatives are currently flirting with ending what democracy we have.

It hasnt worked completely anywhere, no, but it has been devestatingly efffective and required the owning class to take extreme measures and, over the course of time, monumental compromise. There was a time when people didnt even have the idea of democracy. And now we have, comparitively a fairly large amount (although nothing near what we are told we have).

I think it is a mistake to think we are going to innovate our way out of this problem. It isnt a mystery, the key has always been organization.

[incapsulated]

18. The problem is...

That there is an unwritten agreement between the US and Mexico to allow this labor to come here in order to prop up the economy south of the border and keep those that feed off cheap labor happy. They don't give a damn about the american worker being displaced. They know damn well who is hiring these people, yet they are never prosecuted. And the symbolic deportation of a fraction of the influx of immigrants is just that, symbolic. Because they will turn around and come right back in even greater numbers and they know it.

[Extend a Hand]

26. you're right

until we have a government that is not owned by corporations I'm afraid that there is nothing that can (or will) be done.

[ultraist]

75. I generally agree

As long as big corps control our politicians and run our government it's pretty bleak.

[7th_Sephiroth]

20. i live in a part of the panhandle that was hit hardest

theyt all drive fancy new ford f-350 with spanking new texas license plates, and all of them i have seen have a small roll of 50's, fresh cash

[ultraist]

71. Are you quoting Rush Limpballs here:

i live in a part of the panhandle that was hit hardest
theyt all drive fancy new ford f-350 with spanking new texas license plates, and all of them i have seen have a small roll of 50's, fresh cash

Or is this satire?

[sbj405]

193. Yes

I wonder who the enforcement budget has fared in light of the age of "homeland security."

About 10 years ago, I witnessed a bust at my employer. A number of undocumented workers were found working on the construction site. This was a government facility and government contract. Those companies should lose all rights to bid and receive government contracts, just as companies who discriminate or don't follow OSHA regs, etc.

On the flip side, I've certainly known enough people that have gone to Europe or other places and tended bar or waited tables illegally.

[Leilani]

6. That's a wonderful post

because it tries to explain why people feel as they do.

I'm tired of people yelling "racist" if the immigration policies are questioned.

Another thing, at one time immigrants were mostly confined to border areas & large cities; today they are everywhere & affecting economic conditions nation-wide.

Our economy is not robust enough to support every person who wants to work in our country. Supply & demand rules, & if businesses are provided with an endless supply of people willing to work for less than a living wage, American workers are left behind.

This entire mess is hurting Americans who are most vulnerable, & it needs to be fixed now.

[Tansy_Gold]

14. I understand where you're coming from

It's the same where I live in Arizona. The AZ Republic had a front page story on Sunday 3/13/05 on the fact that most of the people building the houses in the housing boom can't afford them. And we're talking about "modest" single family homes as postage-stamp lots in ticky-tacky developments that are $125,000-$200,000. Arizona is a right-to-work state; unions have never had much power here.

But as another poster said, look up for the source of the problem, not down. Look at the contractors who are employing low-wage workers. Look at the developers. Do you have any idea how sick to my stomach I get every time I think that Jim Pederson, multi-millionaire developer, is head of the AZ Democratic Party???? :wtf:

Imagine, for just a moment, that you are a resident of Juarez, Mexico, and you can look right across the Rio Grande into the bright lights and opulence of El Paso, Texas. How painful do you think it is for people to look at that pathetic trickle of water and know that that is all that separates them from a chance at a better job and better living conditions for their children? If you were in their shoes, wouldn't you be tempted to risk it?

Or imagine you live in a village in Chiapas, where some corporation has grabbed all the land and left you nothing to farm on. So you move farther and farther north in search of a job or a place to farm, and there is nothing. You hear the stories of a few who have escaped to Phoenix and you think, "I'm young and I'm healthy and I'm strong and there is nothing here for me but poverty and misery. I can make it across the desert, it can't be that hard."

The young men -- and they are mostly young men -- who risk their lives on el camino del diablo have nothing to lose, except their lives. And many of them do die. Can you imagine risking your fucking life for a chance to be a dishwasher? a pool cleaner? a sweeper-of-sidewalks-after-the-lawn-has-been-mowed?

Imagine then that you are confronted by some American at the border who says, "No, you can't come into this country and try to have a better life. You need to go back to the poverty and hopelessness you came from, because the good American life is reserved for Americans. We're special by viture of having been born here, by the grace of the same God you believe in (but he likes us better). We don't want you taking our good construction jobs away from us (never mind that it's our employers who took them away) and of course we can't do anything about the corporations that shipped our factory jobs over to Mexico, so you just go right back to your little sun-drenched dusty village and stay there, kinda like the happy slaves on the plantations in Gone With the Wind. We'll let you know when we need a nanny or a maid or a pool guy or a landscape laborer, but until then, don't call us and don't come across our border. We were here first (yeah right) and you're just shit outta luck."

Too many Americans -- and I confess I'm sometimes in that group though I try really hard not to be -- feel ENTITLED to the privileges that come with being an American and they don't understand that our privileges, our wealth, our comforts, come only because we have the ability to forcibly keep others from what is rightfully their fair share. The anti-immigration rhetoric is just another example of blaming the victims.


Tansy Gold

[QC]

16. Please point out to me

where in my post I blamed immigrants.

Thank you.

[Tansy_Gold]

22. You didn't explicitly "blame the immigrants"

But your anti-immigration rhetorical is, imho, the same thing.

anti-immigration rhetoric such as yours is, again imho, often couched in terms of "protecting good-paying jobs for Americans." No one complains much about the dishwasher jobs or the night janitor at McDonald's jobs -- but as soon as "those people" start taking away "good-paying American jobs," then out come the appeals to hold down immigration.

all I'm saying is that I see behind a lot of the anti-immigration rhetoric a real classist stance that in effect says, "Americans are entitled to have good jobs, big houses, gas-guzzling cars, lots of cheap plastic crap from Wal-Mart, a second home at the lake, a sailboat, college for all the kids, a $30,000 wedding for the oldest girl ---- and you're not."

Even given the vicissitudes of the booooosh economy, most Americans still live a whole lot better than most Mexicans and Nicaraguans and Brazilians and Indians and Pakistanis. I don't hear a lot of people bitching about immigrants from Germany or France or Norway, regardless what jobs they might be taking away from Americans. The bitching seems to be about a.) immigrants of color and b.) immigrants from countries with lower standards of living than the U.S. (I used to have a right-wing bitch of a boss who ranted and raved on a routine basis about dirty Mexican immigrants and how they ought to all be shipped back across the border so they couldn't get American jobs, but it never bothered her that her boy-friend was a Norwegian immigrant who had taken an engineering job that an American engineer could have done just as well. It was different because he was white, but of course she would never admit that!)

What it all really comes down to is that there are a lot of people in this country who honestly believe they are entitled -- sometimes literally invoking the grace of God Almighty -- to the better life in America and that if God wanted Mexicans here he'd have put them here, and since he didn't, they can just keep the hell out.

Am I saying anyone posting anti-immigration views is essentially a racist? No, I'm not. But I do think there is a tendency to have an "I've got mine, and I'm not sharing" attitude.

[QC]

25. Speaking of "classist stances," your own is shining through very nicely.

This post and the previous one assume a middle-class existence that my own original post explicitly disavows. I'm most assuredly not talking here about people with "power and wealth and privilege." I'm talking about people working two minimum wage jobs in order to pay the rent on a broken-down trailer. They are certainly not people with lakehouses and $30,000 weddings. They are the working poor, and this country has many millions of them.

Frankly, I don't see any "anti-immigration rhetorical " in that post. I am not opposed to immigration, and what I am trying to do here is present the perspective of those who are being hurt by the present cheap labor policy. You should understand that, since you love to ask others to imagine what it's like to be poor (another unwarranted middle-class assumption, since I don't have to imagine poverty, having had quite a bit of personal experience with it).

Immigration is most definitely a class issue, and labor is undeniably subject to the law of supply and demand. The bossman is not going to pay ten bucks an hour if he has an unlimited supply of people willing to do it for six. Slinging accusations of racism, classism, and xenophobia around like cheap Mardi Gras beads does not change those facts.

[PsN2Wind]

24. So in your view American citizens aren't entitled

to not have to compete with immigrants entering the country illegally. Why then, don't we not only have open borders but open airports? Hell, India probably has as many millions of educated, skilled, motivated, English-speaking people that would like to make a better life for themselves as Mexico has unskilled laborers. We could replace all those overpaid doctors, nurses, med techs, rad techs, programmers, engineers in all disciplines, the prospects are endless.
Or is there a line you would draw, maybe just those jobs that you couldn't imagine doing yourself?

[Tansy_Gold]

43. I've done most of those jobs myself at one time or another

and am fixin' to do so again.

[PsN2Wind]

47. I wasn't referring

to going up and nailing down a shingle the wind has blown up on your roof. I'm talking about going up and laying tile in 110 degree heat for 8 hours or more a day.

[Tansy_Gold]

60. Neither was I.

.

[PsN2Wind]

64. So you're going to go out there and compete

in the labor market. And you'd have no problem losing that job to an illegal willing to work for less. How magnanimous of you. But don't be so damn willing to sacrifice the livelihoods of other citizens.

[Tansy_Gold]

84. I compete with them every single day.

And I've lost jobs to them, more than once. But I'm not playing the martyr.

[incapsulated]

92. This is exactly why...

I don't post and don't believe the "personal testimonies" of anyone who drags it up during an argument (that I don't know, personally). It's something anyone can conveniently invent to bolster a position.

[sharonking21]

175. I have no idea if

there is a history here of people posting inaccurate personal testimony or if this person was doing so. Consider, however, that not all truth emerges from purely academic or scientific argument. If you discard all such posts, you will often miss getting the real flavor of what people are thinking and feeling.

[PsN2Wind]

95. 10 posts ago you were a book keeper

Doesn't seem like a job likely to be threatened too much by a Mexican illegal.

[Tansy_Gold]

143. I never said I was a bookkeeper

I said I had processed payrolls, which is the truth. But processing payrolls is not the same as being a bookkeeper.

But I've also done a whole helluva lot of other things, including the same work "illegals" (and legals) do.

Of course, I'm sure you don't think there are never "illegal" white folks who do "white" collar jobs. I'm sure you don't think that the job market for white collar jobs is so open everywhere that someone with a graduate degree would never be "reduced" to seeking -- and accepting -- manual labor.

And maybe that's the problem. Maybe there are many "working class" folks who feel they're unjustly kicked out of a job they're entitled to by virtue of having somehow retroactively earned the right to be born in America and so they just sit back and sulk, like spoiled children deprived of a toy. Maybe they oughta get off their asses and go out there and work right beside the immigrants, legal and otherwise, for the same lousy pay, and make common cause with them.

Otherwise, the bosses have won. They've turned worker against worker and ground us all into the dirt.

Meanwhile, many of the same working class folks who bitch about all the illegals are ever so happy to defend their daily entertainment of shopping at Wal-Mart and buying more and more and more shit made in China and Mexico and Bangladesh, then coming home to complain that there are no jobs in America.

[PsN2Wind]

144. OK so you weren't a bookkeeper

you just "processed payrolls". Still a job that probably isn't threatened by that poor guy from Chiapas. Sounds like work that is more likely to have you end up with callouses on your butt than your hands.

[QC]

188. A couple of questions here:

Why do you assume that only "white folks" are concerned about the impact of mass immigration on wages? Do you have any evidence for that? Please present it if you do.

Why do you put the term working-class in scare-quotes? We all know what that term means, unless, of course, you have some special personal usage of it that is all your own, which is, I admit, what I suspect. The people I know work night shifts at the liquor store to pay for their overpriced studio apartments, so it's hard to imagine them thinking of shopping at Wal-Mart--or anywhere else--as entertainment, much less owning sailboats and weekend houses and giving their daughters $30,000 weddings, if I might quote a particularly cluelessly idiotic post that a certain someone threw up here not long ago.

Most importantly, do you honestly think that a citizen of a country deserves no more consideration than someone who just showed up this morning? If you do, please defend that position. Please be sure to explain how native workers should go home and explain to their families that they should just get kicked out onto the streets because someone else was willing to work their job for less money. That's really the key issue here, after all, once we cut out all the bullshit and get down to reality.

I look forward to your reply.

Edited to remove a typo.

[ultraist]

51. The competition wouldn't be as fierce if fewer companies OUTSOURCED

There is a SHORTAGE of jobs due to outsourcing. Companies are being rewarded via corporate WELFARE for outsourcing. This has affected ALL levels of the workforce.

As far as the gentrification of the area described in the OP, that has NOTHING to do with illegal immigration. Illegal aliens are not buying those houses.

I realize that he did not directly link those two items but the developers who are gentrifying that area and selling vacation homes to Canadians would still profit handsomely regardless of who they hired for laborers.

With interest rates as they are and the weak value of the US dollar, it's a buyers' market for Canadians and other foreigners. People are flying into NYC from Europe en masse to shop due to this. It's no wonder we are seeing a surge in foreigners' spending here in the US.

[Xithras]

151. Outsourcing and hiring illegals are really the same thing

With one you bring in low wage workers from other countries to do work for wages that no American would tolerate. With the other you send work to other countries so low wage workers can work for wages that no American would tolerate. The only difference between the two is the location of the building. BOTH combine to drive down the wage scales and put Americans out of jobs.

[ultraist]

161. Not really

Outsourcing takes a lot more and jobs and money out of our economy. Corps don't have to pay payroll taxes, SS, unemployment insurance, workman's comp, property taxes, etc. They also don't have to pay minimum wage. With the added profits, they often invest in foreign markets rather than putting it back into our economy.

Personally, I feel outsourcing is having more of an adverse effect than hiring undocumentated workers here, but I haven't researched that enough to state it as fact. Most certainly, outsourcing and the unAmerican tax system we have, has far greater implications than does hiring undocumented workers.

I have recently driven through NC, SC and parts of GA and have been stunned by the number of empty warehouses and manufacturing plants. Complete industries are nearly shut down, such as textiles and tobacco. RTP companies, such as SAS & IBM are downsizing like mad, setting up shop, including research in India and China.

[morgan2]

21. the solution to immigration

is to fix Mexico. If wages rise enough there, people wont have a reason to sneak in here. The problem is employers in the US love have a large pool of immigrants. It keeps poor Americans wages from rising, and gives them a huge pool of workers they can do what they want with.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Try making common cause with your fellow working class immigrants.

Instead of blaming them, blame the people who are exploiting the both of you. It's called solidarity.

[QC]

27. Try reading posts before responding to them.

I'm not blaming immigrants in my original post. I am trying to present the perspective of the working poor, an admittedly unstylish one that seldom gets any mention in the thoroughly bourgeois setting of DU.

[K-W]

37. And our point is that we know that perspective just fine, and its wrong.

How exactly would you like us to mention it?

Is there a single person in America who isnt fully aware of why we are supposed to hate immigrants? Do you really think we dont all know that point of view?

So now make a choice, either defend this point of view or dont, but dont sit here lording your open mindedness over us because we arent properly taking into account a perspective based on irrational bigoted thinking that obscures the true causes of our problems.

[southlandshari]

55. "Irrational bigoted thinking"

is exactly what the original post was NOT.

I didn't find anything in the OP that was anti-immigrant, bigoted, racist or otherwise offensive to either the local labor pool in his area or the "imported" laborers working there.

I think some here may be reacting without fully reading the original post and some of the follow-ups.

It may be unpopular or un-PC to point out, but there IS a problem in some areas in this country with big companies taking advantage of undocumented immigrants. Does anyone argue that it is wrong for a corporation to pay someone less than the minimum wage, provide no benefits, break state and federal labor laws on work hours, etc...?

And likewise, in some areas, including QC's, there truly is a lack of jobs that pay a living wage for long-time residents. This is compounded when companies in these areas go around the law, go around human decency, and exploit illegal workers to make a quick buck. The resentment some feel there is real and shouldn't be so casually dismissed.

[K-W]

132. Im sorry that you cant see what is right in front of your face.

Blaming Immigrant workers who take jobs to feed thier family because you don't have a job to feed your family is idiocy, he is in the exact same position as you with no say in his economic fate just taking whatever opportunity he can get. He doesnt have other options and niether does the american worker, only one person in the transaction has options and that is the corportations. They can choose to work for the public interest or profiteer off political and social conditions.

I am not casually desmissing anyone, please do not mistake me. Thier resentment is well earned, but if they direct it the immigrents they are not only making a mistake, but aiding and abbetting those who got fat paychecks by exploiting workers.

[southlandshari]

139. We just interpret the OP differently

I didn't read anything that I interpreted as blaming the immigrant (legal or non-legal) workers. I agree with you that they are not to blame for taking whatever opportunity they can to try to better life for themselves and their families. I said this is a previous post in this thread.

That doesn't change the fact that it is probably human nature for unemployed local laborers to feel resentment for those who are working AND blame the companies that use the immigrant labor to save a buck. It doesn't have to be either/or.

[K-W]

155. It isnt human nature.

But yes, it is certainly a natural association.

I am not trying to imply maliciousness on anyones part. As I said, they come to this opinion earnestly. That does not however make it intelligent or correct.

But calling it human nature is very wrong because it implies that it is natural and unchanging. It is a product of a specific set of circumstances, and one of those circumstances is, the abscence of a better explenation for unemployment, and more modernly, the use of propagand to obscure, discredit, and marginalize the better explenation.

It is wholly unatural for workers to not understand the nature of thier society to the point where they they are left with little choice but to scapegoat immigrants. Again, I imply no maliciousness with my use of the word scapegoat.

[southlandshari]

181. Good point

I think your description is better than my oversimplified "human nature". I appreciate your thoughtful response that took into consideration what I posted. I felt like we were in agreement in general on this.

[bush_whacked]

166. I take it you are NOT a minority?

If you were (as I am, Mexican to be exact) you would see, this is clearly a biggoted post.

**whine, whine** we can't work those slave labor jobs b/c those damn Mexicans are doing it. Blame the system, blame the companies themselves. DON'T blame the workers. I guess they/we should all just cross back to Mexico and let this country see how it likes itself?

I'd like to see someone that does payroll out in the 110 degree heat picking grapes, building houses, etc for pennies an hour. Then and only then do I feel you have the real story about Migrant and Illegal workers.

This whole topic really turns my stomach. How utterly deplorable to blame people trying to make their lives, their families lives, better by working as slave labor for the downfall of our society/economy.

[QC]

170. The only thing "biggoted" here...

is your contention that anyone who disagrees with you is acting from racist motives.

Like I said below, if you have something to contribute to this discussion other than drama tantrums and personal attacks, please feel free.

[bush_whacked]

172. Nowhere did I say those who disagree with me are

biggoted. The only thing I see here is you attacking a person instead of talking about an issue.


ETA: I said the original post was biggoted.

[QC]

174. Then point out the parts that you believe are "biggoted."

That gives us a basis for a discussion. So far all you've done here is repeat the accusation over and over without providing any foundation for it. That might make you feel like a righteous warrior and all, but it doesn't really add anything to the discussion.

[QC]

187. OK, here's a worthier and easier challenge.

If you read my original post, you might have noticed that it ended with a question:

My question is, how can we manage immigration in such a way as to protect blue-collar workers here and allow new people to come to America and improve their lives? There's got to be a better way than the current one.

Do you have any suggestions for how to answer that question? I hope so, because that would give us a basis for discussion.

[southlandshari]

204. Looks like this was a hit and run.

Figures.

:eyes:

[southlandshari]

182. Thanks, QC

I was scratching my head after that response to my post. I went back and read my previous post again, and was still at a loss as how what I said remotely resembled what was attributed to me in the reply. After this thread, I'm guessing you know how I feel!

[QC]

183. You're very welcome.

It's frustrating, isn't it, to go to great lengths to discuss a sensitive issue in an appropriately sensitive way and then have people attack you without reading or considering what you have actually said?

Anyone who wonders why our party has pretty much lost blue-collar voters need only read some of the responses in this thread to find out one big reason why.

[southlandshari]

180. No, I'm not

but I am married to an immigrant with brown skin, a difficult to pronounce first and last name, without a high school diploma, who has had to fight tooth and nail for each inch forward he's taken since we moved to the U.S. ten years ago. He has a green card and has applied for citizenship, and we've been waiting for two years for an answer. His first few years here were hell when it came to employment. Twice he was forced to take jobs working for cash "under the table" because he couldn't find a job - any job - in two different towns we lived in.

I want to be really clear. I would NEVER blame immigrant workers - legal or illegal in the eyes of the BCIS - for taking jobs wherever they can find them to better their lives. I worked several years for a large, nonprofit housing provider, and I was among those who advocated building homes for applicants who qualified by our income standards, regardless of their immigration status. I fall way, way on the open-minded side when it comes to immigrants in the U.S.

I don't know what I said to make it appear I think immigrants themselves should be blamed for the loss of blue collar jobs in U.S. communities. I don't think QC, the original poster, said this either. There is a difference in saying that:

--there are fewer jobs in some areas because of the use of immigrant labor by large companies, and local worker resentment, as a result, is understandable

AND

--there are fewer jobs in some areas because of immigrant laborers themselves and local worker resentment is justifiably directed at immigrants.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Give me a break.

My father came from Arkansas as an "Okie" immigrant to California. He worked a variety of manual labor jobs, then as a stevadore in the ILWU, and fought company goons in San Francisco.

My mother was an immigrant from England and worked as a maid. At times we were homeless. And, frequently hungry poor.

I've worked as a minimum wage dishwasher and as a laborer to support myself starting at age 15.

Spare me the "bourgeois" bullcrap.

If you can't find solidarity with the poor immigrant people against the bosses and want to stop them trying to survive, you're a sorry spokesman for the "working class".

[QC]

49. That's a great story, but again, you're obviously responding

to something other than what I have written here. Frankly, all you've done here tonight is repost the same boilerplate you've been throwing up in threads on this topic for as long as I can remember.

I have no problem feeling solidarity with these people. I spent a summer volunteering in a migrant ed program in northern California a few years back, in a place where farm workers live much like Mississippi sharecroppers circa 1930, and I have borrowed myself into a lifetime of debt to get a PhD so that I could teach--by choice--in a community college, where many blue-collar students get their only shot at an education. I'll put my lefty credentials up against those of anyone on this board.

My point, as I have posted numerous times on this thread, is that bringing in cheap labor pushes down the wages of people who are barely managing to live as it is. We can either acknowledge that or ignore it, but it's true either way.

[bush_whacked]

167. You cannot possibly feel solidarity with

people you deem to call "these people"

[QC]

168. And you cannot possibly feel solidarity with any working people at all

if you believe that undercutting their wages in a race to the bottom that only benefits our corporate overlords is a good thing.

If you have anything to contribute to this discussion other than personal attacks and indiscriminate, unsupported accusations of racism, please feel free to come forward with it.

[bush_whacked]

171. personal attacks?

speaking the truth is sometimes hard to take. Hatred was the principal of the OP.

Since I don't have a solution for the problem, I shouldn't post? Are you the new Admin? I must have missed that.

A personal attack was in the original post. Perspective is a wondrous thing, isn't it?

[QC]

173. Please quote the personal attack in the original post.

It might also be helpful to point out the "hatred."

And yes, perspective is a wondrous thing. Perhaps you should acquire some.

[brokensymmetry]

28. Excellent points!

:kick:

[southlandshari]

29. Saw this in your neck of the woods this past weekend

I drove down to the Florida panhandle to drop my child off to spend a few days with grandparents at the beach, and there was a huge crew of hispanic laborers working on the ground floor (hurricane Ivan reconstruction stuff).

A contractor van dropped them off early each morning and picked them up about 14 hours later, well into the evening hours. It all seemed very organized and streamlined.

I'm more liberal than most when it comes to immigration law. I'm married to someone from another country, and have dealt extensively with the INS (now the BCIS) on our own case, and in the past decade, immigration issues for friends and family. Those who think legal immigration is easy are kidding themselves. If you do it right, you are in for years of headache and scrutiny, while those who ignore the rules have it easy by comparison. But I don't begrudge anyone who moves to the U.S. (legally or not) trying to make a better life for themself and their family. I'd do the same in their shoes.

That said, the only winners in what's going on in your area (and countless others, no doubt, in the US) are the big companies who can afford to set up this kind of imported slave labor system. Local workers lose; in the end, the immigrant laborers aren't winners, either. It's not like they make enough to send any significant funds home. It's wrong and it is oppressive. I wish I had some ideas of how to combat it.

[QC]

32. Exactly--it's exploitative all around.

Unfortunately, that fact gets lost in the usual rush around here to accuse anyone who questions the wisdom of current immigration policy of being a racist classist xenophobe.

But I don't begrudge anyone who moves to the U.S. (legally or not) trying to make a better life for themself and their family. I'd do the same in their shoes.

I don't either. Any decent person would do the same to keep the kids from going hungry.

[fujiyama]

30. Most of these same blue collar types

have been convinced that unions are evil and that unrestricted capatalism is the greatest system in existence.

It's a bizarre dicotomy in America. The American people claim they distrust those in places of power but have great admiration for its CEOs. They bitch about their bosses yet vote in the party that is backed by them.

Rather than blaming the immigrants, maybe they should place blame where it really lies - at the hands of those in power that enourage policies of hiring illegal immigrants in the first place - usually wealthy companies.

Time to stop bitching about the immigrants (not saying that you are necessarily), but ultimately they're coming here to better their own oppportunities.

[sandnsea]

31. That is not immigration

That is illegal hiring practices. Which a strong union could fight against, except as I recall, workers in the south don't believe in unions. Until they respect their right to be paid a decent wage for their labor, and realize they have to organize to fight for those rights, they're going to be SOL.

[QC]

40. My decidedly Southern father and grandfather were union men.

Few people get that privilege now, though, thanks to Right to Work (for Nothing) laws and the Reagan/Bush/Bush assault on labor.

[sandnsea]

48. Well there you go

Give up your right to organize and strike, don't stand up for EVERY worker, you get screwed. I'd say a mass letter writing and flier campaign is in order.

I wonder how many thought throwing out the unions meant throwing out quotas.

[Clark2008]

86. Unions don't exist in the South anymore

Except, get this, for newspapers and some very small locals (steel, plumming, etc.).

Problem is, most of us in the South can't afford to pay union labor because we're not union. It's a vicious cycle.

This is an interesting thread. I don't have much to share at this point, but I'm enjoying reading and find myself nodding in agreement, frequently. I'm out of work, myself, and my options are very limited.

Please, I hope you continue this discussion.

[sharonking21]

200. One thing you can do in the South

is, if you get the opportunity, join a union as a statement even if at the moment it may be rather toothless due to restrictions on striking etc.

I worked as an epidemiologist/manager at a state health agency. Most of the professionals there joined a "professional association" rather than the union. I didn't--I joined the union and was one of one of the few managers to do so.

But I wanted to make a point to the right-wing Republicans who had come into control at the top and were running the place into the ground--more or less intentionally I think. They wanted to say that they had programs in Texas addressing the health of the public, but, in fact, they were hell-bent on making those programs small, impotent, and mere facades. Incidentally, although not many managers joined, membership went way up after the rightist Republicans were put in at the top of the structure.

[ultraist]

65. It's not the Southern workers that dislike unions

It's the powerful big corp and business owners. Just recently, I read an article about how several workers were threatened a couple fired in NC for attempting to organize a union.

Looking to marginalized undocumentated workers to explain the problem is backwards. It is the wealthy POWER holders who have created this crisis.

A related aside: Hispanics are the poorest population of our society. US Census stats show that a higher percentage of Hispanics live in poverty than any racial group. Are they really taking the all of the jobs from white Americans?

[sandnsea]

96. Sure okay

Denial isn't going to get anything changed. Do southerners really think that the rest of the country doesn't travel to the south, have friends and family in the south, maybe lived in the south themselves?

On the aside, wasn't there just an article that 50% of the new jobs created went to immigrants, who tend to come from Latin American countries?

[ultraist]

98. 50%? Do you have a link? That's hard to believe.

I agree, denial of all of the causes and blaming one small factor isn't going to get anything changed.

Regarding Southerners & unions, do you think it's the oppressed laborers or the power holders who make the decisions? The history of anti unions in the South goes back to Jim Crow days.

[sandnsea]

107. Here's the FL Law

You tell me why this got passed in 1968.

Fla. Const. Article 1, § 6

§ 6. Right to Work

The right of persons to work shall not be denied or abridged on account of membership or non-membership in any labor union or labor organization. The right of employees, by and through a labor organization, to bargain collectively shall not be denied or abridged. Public employees shall not have the right to strike. (Adopted at General Election November 5, 1968.)

I don't have a link on the 50%, I'll look for one if you really want.

[ultraist]

112. What is your point?

Do you think Souther business owners abided by laws pertaining to Unions post the Civil Rights Act?

I am not familiar with all Southern state constitutions but it's my guess that NC, SC, VA, TN, AL, GA and other southern states were late to pass such laws.

FL is not typical of the other Southern states, btw.

[sandnsea]

119. They're all here

I'm sorry, there's a link to a map with all of them and I should have posted it. Here's SC, 1954. Why did they get passed? Unions are full of communists? Unions are full of liberal agitators? I don't know. Probably lots of reasons. But the south has been less unionized than the north for a long time. I honestly don't know why someone would argue that point.

41-7-10. Denial of right to work for membership or nonmembership in labor organization declared to be against public policy.

It is hereby declared to be the public policy of this State that the right of persons to work shall not be denied or abridged on account of membership or nonmembership in any labor union or labor organization. (Enacted March 19, 1954.)

http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm

[ultraist]

121. I stated the history of anti unions in the South goes way back

In my post above I wrote:
The history of anti unions in the South goes back to Jim Crow days.

Why do you think I'm arguing that the South is pro Union? The South still, to this day, has far less unions.

This sounds like a misunderstaning.

[sandnsea]

124. Maybe we're really tired

Or something. "Why do you think I'm arguing that the South is pro union"

I don't know what that means, it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of your post. Did it need a comma?

[ultraist]

127. LOL!

You wrote:
"But the south has been less unionized than the north for a long time. I honestly don't know why someone would argue that point." (bold added)

And I responded, "Why do you think I'm aruging that the South is pro Union?"

In other words, I was not arguing the South was pro union and didn't understand why you thought I was considering I had posted to the contrary.

[sandnsea]

131. oh lord

:dunce: Good night!!

[ultraist]

135. NIGHT!

Sweet dreams. :)

[sandnsea]

109. Link

Excuse me, it was during the 90's, according to this article.

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/02/20/in_the_job_market_some_win_some_lose/

Currently, it's 28.5%. I hate to link to FR, but that's where this particular article popped up and it's no longer at the Houston Chronicle.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1154603/posts

[ultraist]

117. Thanks for the links!

So, in the 90's immigrants took nearly 50% of the new jobs but now, even though immigration has increased, they are taking 28% of the new jobs. Interesting.

IMMIGRANTS does not mean only "illegal aliens." It's all immigrants. The underlying data used in the report do not distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/02/20/in_the_job_market_some_win_some_lose/


In the 1990s, immigrants captured close to 50 percent of the job growth in the United States

A majority of the new workers are men and nearly all are young -- a plus for the Social Security system, which ...

Lawrence Katz, an economics professor at Harvard, says the weak labor market of the past four years exaggerates the impact of immigration

The second is that the market for labor, like the market for commodities and money, is truly global. Americans are competing with workers in China and India through outsourcing ...

[sandnsea]

122. And so?

I don't know what your point is now.

Has immigration increased recently? I don't know, did I miss that in one of the articles? I'd agree with Katz, the weak labor market has exaggerated the problem of both legal and illegal immigration, and outsourcing.

[ultraist]

162. My points are

what you noted in your post and the excerpts I posted. There are a myriad of factors that are adversely affecting the job market.

Additionally, that 28% includes BOTH legal and illegal workers.

There is a lot of hype and hysteria surrounding this "illegal alien" dialog and I think it's important not to get swept up in it and ignore the other relevant facts.

[PsN2Wind]

33. Well Qc

I suppose that as you read the replies to your thread that you can probably pick out those posters that have never, at some point in their lives, had nothing to sell but their labor.

[QC]

35. Yeah, it's pretty obvious, isn't it? n/t

[ultraist]

85. Really, how is it obvious?

Do you know our life histories? Our are you assuming that we are the upper middle or upper income Volvo driving apathetic bourgeoisie?

I did have two Volvos years ago at different times, one ten year old Volvo and one 12 year old Volvo. ;)

[PsN2Wind]

90. Well I drive a 1972 Chevrolet

Corvette. Fortunately I was able to earn enough to buy it before it became necessary to compete with illegal aliens as to who would work the cheapest. I've belonged to three different unions, one of them being Amalgamated Meat-cutters and Butcher-workers, that represented packing house workers. I worked 15 years as a Journeyman roofer until my back failed and I worked another 20 some years in manufacturing. I never heard the guys sitting around the break table saying "don't you wish we could get a bunch of illegal aliens to compete for our jobs".

[ultraist]

100. Do you think that manufacturing has been hit by outsourcing?

Or is it just undocumented workers that have pushed out American workers?

http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/39474.html
Outsourcing of US Jobs: Bad or Good?

By Judy Olian
Seattle Post-Intelligencer
01/09/05 5:00 AM PT

Lori Kletzer of the University of California-Santa Cruz examined manufacturing job losses between 1979 and 1999 in labor-intensive industries such as clothing, footwear, leather and textiles. About one-third of displaced workers failed to find reemployment within a three-year period, and among those who did, about half experienced a substantial wage cut.

Data from Forrester Research, a leading IT consulting organization, lends support to Bhagwati's findings with estimates that 400,000 U.S. jobs had moved abroad by 2003 and that the total would hit 3.3 million by 2015.

There is other evidence in line with Samuelson's findings to suggest that jobs are lost, and lost forever, especially at the low end of the food chain. Lori Kletzer of the University of California-Santa Cruz examined manufacturing job losses between 1979 and 1999 in labor-intensive industries such as clothing, footwear, leather and textiles. About one-third of displaced workers failed to find reemployment within a three-year period, and among those who did, about half experienced a substantial wage cut of at least 15 percent.

[sharonking21]

150. Humph!

Although I don't share your immigration views, I do share your views on old cars :):

See my post at Kos re: a call upon everyone to go right out and get a living will:

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/3/19/175157/173/488#488

Writing it down -$$$ (4.00 / 3)

Aside from the fact that she was young and aside from the fact that the natural tendency of all of us is to avoid thinking of unpleasant topics such as our own demise or destruction, please keep in mind that much of our population cannot afford to go to a lawyer to have things like this done.

I often note on this forum that everyone seems to be pretty much of long-standing middle class origins. It comes out in statements made by people who assume that just everyone should have the educational background and resources to fully understand everything and also should have the money to do something about it.

Kinda like this woman I worked with once who just couldn't understand why in the hell all those people drove old cars that polluted the environment. Her obliviousness to the plight of the people who drove those old cars appalled me and I found it difficult to like her thereafter. As an overeducated child of a working class family, I knew exactly why they were driving those old cars!

It also shows up in a lack of interest about things like poverty, housing etc. I'm not saying it is willful, but it is as if there is a giant blind spot of ignorance about straitened circumstances here sometimes.
. . . . .

[K-W]

34. So they blame the poor working immigrants, not the greedy companies...

That isnt how the working class views immigration, it's xenophobic tendencies in people being manipulated to make immigrants the scapegoat for the fact that businesmen are essentially sociopaths who feel no responsibility at all to the society that makes them kings.

Edited for clarity.

[QC]

38. No, I don't blame immigrants for it.

In fact, I explicitly said in post #32 that any decent person would immigrate to give his or her family a better life.

Have you ever considered responding to what people actually post? It really does make for a better discussion in many ways. Perhaps you should try it.

[K-W]

39. I edited my post, but im really not sure

why you are mocking us because your post wasnt clear.

[QC]

45. Whatever.

I very much agree that the problem is with a business elite that pits working people against one another to push down wages. I'm an old-fashioned lefty, so I have no problem understanding that.

My point is simply that to people who are living on the edge--not people with lakehouses and boats and $30,000 weddings--it is very clear that immigration is being used to push wages down. That is why working-class voters perceive a problem here. If we are going to be true to our party's historic mission of looking out for the disadvantaged, we need to find some way to protect both immigrant workers and natives. We cannot simply pretend that mass immigration has no price when it so clearly does.

[K-W]

52. I dont think anyone is pretending anything.

I think everyone is very well aware of the immigration situation you are talking about. I think we are all focused on trying to solve the problem, which means we need to concentrate on the reality of the situation, which is that unemployment, not immigration, is the problem your working class friends are sensing, they have just misidentified it.

[QC]

57. So how do we get that message out to them?

We're not talking about people who read Howard Zinn. We're talking about people who work two minimum wage jobs with no bennies. They're exhausted when they come home, and paying the rent and putting some food on the table is a constant struggle. When they get sick they just have to gut it out because one trip to the emergency room would be enough to break them. Something as minor as the car breaking down is enough to have them out on the streets. The only media they regularly encounter is the corporate variety. They have been relentlessly propagandized by the Republicans, and meanwhile the Democrats have advocated kinder, gentler versions of the GOP policies that are making their lives more and more uncertain. And yeah, they remember back when working construction meant making a good living, but now they see other people getting those jobs.

How do we get the message to them that the problem is the man who owns the construction company, not the other workers he is exploiting? This is a serious question.

[K-W]

63. You communicate with them.

You create materials, you talk to them, you setup organizations to inform them and teach them.

It really isnt that revolutionary to convince working people that the corporate elites are a problem. The right has just kept people from making that argument to them very successfully.

You get the message to them by getting it to them. By sending it to them in the mail, emailing it to them, telling them in person, or distributing literature. You do all the things that created the conditions neccessary for the labor movement in the first place.

[QC]

70. I do what I can in my classroom,

but there's a fine line between teaching and indoctrination that I do not want to cross for ethical reasons. I really do keep the readings reasonably balanced, avoid privileging my opinions over those of the students, etc.

I know there's a receptive audience, though. As I posted elsewhere, I teach at a community college in this town with practically no middle class, and when we read excerpts from Nickled and Dimed in class the response was amazing. Hands going up right and left, people declaring that they knew exactly what she was talking about and relating their own stories of managers and customers treating them like slaves. And they do know the story, because around here, if you're not a professional of some kind, you probably work in what is euphemistically called "the hospitality industry." (And yes, the restaurant and hotel work is increasingly going to immigrants now, and that's what people on the ground see.)

That last bit is what I was trying to get at in the original post. We know that the bossman is the problem, but what the people on the ground see is people undercutting them in a time when jobs are hard to come by. That's right out in the open, while corporate manipulation of our government takes place far from here. So what breeds resentment is what people see, and I don't think that dismissing that resentment is much of a strategy. It's very real and it stems from people's fears of not being able to provide for their families--the very same motivation that moves people to immigrate.

[sharonking21]

198. This IS a key issue

How do we get the message to them that the problem is the man who owns the construction company, not the other workers he is exploiting? This is a serious question.

I do not have an easy solution nor is it the only key question. However, I would like to maintain this conversation in a rational way because I think we Democrats (Okay, I know not all Democrats, but the majority of them) have been shamefully ignoring all these questions.

Quite often if you mention the terms working class, working poor, poverty, housing, childcare, or transportation, etc, the reaction from the majority is that such issues are "too divisive", lead to class war, yada, yada.

This willful blindness to class issues has been a longstanding feature of American life, with the mere acknowledgment that class exists being something that can get you called a Marxist by the unthinking. But the Democratic Party as a whole never used to be that way.

To me, the most pressing issue, (one that I put even above this one), is first rescuing the country from what I see as a drift so far to the right that it presents a real risk to democracy.

However, the issues surrounding equity (perhaps not totally unrelated to the above) are a very close second on my list.

[QC]

199. Another common reaction if you mention the working class,

at least around here, is that such people are crude, icky trailer dwellers who speak in tongues and are too dumb to vote their interests. The contempt for the lower classes among what purports to be the Left in this country is staggering.

[sharonking21]

203. Right after the election

I heard someone say something like that--not the crude icky speaking in tongues part, but the part about not voting their interests. Now keep in mind she had worked very hard to get Kerry elected because she thought overall his election would tend to help everyone and at the moment she spoke, she was feeling extremely let down because, in her perception anyway, the working class hadn't stepped up to the plate and voted overwhelmingly Democratic. She was so disappointed that she said she felt like giving up on the working class.

[TahitiNut]

36. A Illegal Alien is NOT an 'immigrant.'

My grandparents were immigrants. They were also union members. They migrated to the U.S. legally and then made damned sure they weren't lowering the very standard of living that attracted them.

People argue that illegal aliens 'pay taxes' and then give the examples of sales and excise taxes. First off, the majority are sending money "home" and not putting it back into our economy so other people can work. Second, they're taking jobs for probably less than half that would be paid if there weren't a "race to the bottom" ... and that means less income taxes (if they pay it at all) and less payroll taxes (if they pay it at all). What it DOESN'T mean is less costs for public services.

Fair pay of citizens and permanent residents creates jobs!! Cheap pay of illegal aliens destroys jobs for everyone! The only people who benefit are the "owners" ... until there's nobody left to buy the products and services their imported slaves provide. It's Scorched Earth Economics... destroy the best economies and then move on?


The ratio of corporate profits to employee compensation is at a 70-year high.





The effective tax rate on corporations is at a 70-year low.




The average worker paying into Social Security is earning less.

[K-W]

41. People hated immigrants in your grandparents generation too.

and for largely the same reasons

[TahitiNut]

87. Obfuscation.

There are, by various reliable accounts, 20-30 illegal aliens (aka "undocumented workers") in this country. That's a problem, and one doesn't have to be a bigot to want to solve that problem.

Running scared from people who want to hurl the 'bigot' epithet (or just insinuate it) at anyone who believes in legal (and FAIR) immigration stops otherwise reasonable people from dealing with the source of the problem: cheap labor corporatists.

Yes, my grandparents were called "filthy scandahoovians." They never once accepted work at less than the prevailing rate. (They didn't have to be afraid of being turned in to the INS and jailed.) That didn't stop the corporatists from yelling "boogieman" at bigoted (non-unionized) working class people as they 'offered' them lower wages. Bigotry has been used as a tool of division for a looong time.

[XemaSab]

178. 20-30 illegal aliens?

let's stick 'em on a bus and send them back to mexico.

What's the real number???

[PsN2Wind]

44. A point I've tried to make many times.

If you're a contractor (not really you) and you have the choice between paying a citizen, working on a real Social Security card, even minimum wage plus his S.S matching, and workers comp and the other costs of employment OR an illegal alien that even if you pay him minimum, you can withhold his S.S. contribution and withhold his (or her) income tax and knowing he's not going to file ever for either, put that money back in your pocket. Minimum becomes about $4 an hour for you.
People here also deny that Mexico's biggest import from the US is dollars from those illegals working in this country.
They also ignore that the farmers in California are claiming they can't get enough migrant workers while estimates are there are between 10 and 11 million already here. So where are they?

[Tansy_Gold]

76. Most contractors can't afford the risk of hiring undocumented

workers. Here in Arizona, most of the workers on major construction sites are legal, they're getting paid the going (if inadequate) rate for laborers, and their employment taxes are being paid.

Subcontractors like electricians, plumbers, etc., have to have dependable and trained employees, meaning legal.

The undocumented day-laborers, at least in the Phoenix area, aren't working on the big construction projects. They're doing menial work for landscape companies or for the guy who's trying to squeeze a little extra out of his insurance settlement by putting the new shingles on himself. They borrow a friend's legal social security card and driver's license -- all them brown folk look alike to the white guy filling out the I-9 anyway -- and they get a job washing dishes at the Chinese buffet restaurant.

The fear of immigrants is an irrational one for the "working poor." It's not the immigrants who are 'taking jobs away' from "working Americans." The same companies that are building factories under NAFTA in Mexico to take advantage of the poor people there are also pushing people off the land they've lived on for generations, pushing them into cities that can't provide for them, pushing them north to a border that they see as the threshold to a new life.

If there's a common enemy, it's corporate capitalism and a fascist government alligned with the corporations. But the immigrants are not the enemy -- though the fascists who convince the American workers to vote GOP are happy when people think that way.

[PsN2Wind]

93. Willful ignorance

They'll damn sure hire someone with phony documents as long as they are allowed to claim they "thought they were legit".

[TahitiNut]

103. I have two American friends who worked "off the books" in construction ...

... in California. Anyone who thinks "undocumented workers" in construction isn't widespread ought to talk to them. :eyes:

There're a plethora of ways, involving subcontractors, day labor, false payroll names (cronies) and kickbacks, 1099, etc. etc.

[ultraist]

79. That's a risk most business owners don't take

Withholding money from an employee's paycheck and not paying taxes appropriately is a go to jail offense. Payrolls are monitored and audited. They don't check for green cards of the employees, but State and Federal agencies DO keep an eye on payroll taxes.

We have owned our small business for ten years and have been audited twice by the employment security commission. We use a payroll service so everything was in order. Illegally withholding from payroll is NOT something most owners would risk.

[EFerrari]

46. Immigrant

Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: im·mi·grant
Pronunciation: 'i-mi-gr&nt
Function: noun
One that immigrates : as a : a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence

[TahitiNut]

50. So, the United States "immigrated" in Iraq and Afghanistan, huh?

:eyes:

20-30 million people crossing a country's border without permission is an invasion, not "immigration." I don't give a flying fuck what color, religion, or gender they are.

[K-W]

54. If you want to make up your own definitions for words fine,

but you cant argue points based on your personalized language.

Immigration is not invasion, and frankly the differences are fairly obvious.

[EFerrari]

56. Let me put this a different way.

There are three players here: the working class (where my family lives), the corporatists and undocumented workers.

Who is your natural ally?

Who gets trotted out as a strawman everytime the corporations screw up the economy by gifting their pals?

I don't need an answer.

peace,
Beth

[PsN2Wind]

62. Neither is my ally

since the illegals are being used by the corporatists to the detriment of my class and, if you're to be believed, yours.

[K-W]

66. illegals are in the same class as you

that is where you are off

[PsN2Wind]

74. I was born in this country,

served in two branches of this countries military, and have worked, paid taxes, and paid into the Social Security system for 48 years. They might be in your class but they are not in the same class as I. They are being used by the power elite to try and force me into their class. And you are cheering them on.

[K-W]

156. Your nationality isnt your class.

You clearly dont understand the concept of class, please be assured I was not insulting you.

But your xenophobia is showing.

[EFerrari]

99. That's the point I was trying to make, PsN2Wind

We are being pitted against a natural ally, the oldest trick in the book.

There are other pieces to this, I know. That's just the one that stands out very starkly for me. My family came here legally from Central America, the whole tribe, one by one then their parents. But I've lived in California my whole life and know too many real people who are here without docs to talk about them as "aliens" or to talk about building walls or mass imprisonments or deportations.

Those people are not my enemies. They are not taking food out of my mouth. My government granting the rights of a citizen to corporations -- with few of the responsibilities -- that is my challenge. Or as I see it, our challenge. A government representative of the corporations, for the corporations and of the corporations.

Illegal immigrants get deported all the time -- usually on pay day. They assume a social security number and pay FICA that they will never be able to collect on. They live in fear and can't report assault, burglary or rape to the police. I used to translate here in San Francisco for folks who were held for weeks in the county jail until some functionary thought to ship them home. Meanwhile, their families had no word of them.

There is a huge problem here. But the problem isn't these people trying to feed and house themselves. The problem, in my view, is the rights corporations enjoy -- including the right to exploit "illegals" and to exploit you and me. That should be our focus, not these people who are simply trying to live.

[TahitiNut]

69. I see it as four players: working class, immigrants, corporatists, and ...

... illegal aliens. If you want to include (legal) immigrants among the working class, fine. As long as the corporatists divide and conquer, labor is screwed.

In this particular case, those who have a vested interest in driving down labor compensation persist in using the term "immigrant" to deliberately obfuscate the distinction between legal immigrants and illegal aliens. Playing the bigotry card futher obfuscates the issue.

I see two essential steps:
(1) Imprison employers of illegal aliens ("undocumented workers") and revoke their business licenses.
(2) Increase the minimum wage to $7/hr (with inflation protection) and cut back on FLSA 'exemptions' by about 75%.

[EFerrari]

94. I almost posted an inane reply about what to do with employers

who break the law.

But, as it is (smacks forehead) they are the law at this point.

While you and I are arguing fine points, government and management has melded.

In my opinion, we'd all be further ahead to forward worker's rights, period. Because we get bogged down otherwise and because we need the sheer numbers.

Something to think about, anyway.

B.

/damn Ingles :)

[ultraist]

61. Do you honestly believe that corp profits are at an all time high due to

undocumentated workers?

The ratio of corporate profits to employee compensation is at a 70-year high

That is a myopic perspective. Bush's tax cuts, deregulations on corps, OUTSOURCING, & corporate WELFARE are far more influential variables on corporate profits than is undocumentated workers.

The Bush Klan is creating a small wealthy ruling class and destroying the middle class, pushing more into poverty through his cuts to social programs and other horrific policies. Undocumentated workers play one very minor, insignificant role in this.

Scapegoating undocumented workers and dismissing all other causes smacks of xenophobia.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

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[ultraist]

102. "Try remedial" writing

You posted corp profit charts and discussed "illegal aliens" and did not mention other causes of huge corp gains.

Congratulations! You have resorted to ad hominem attacks and uncivilized discussion all while failing to support your position with facts.

First off, the majority are sending money "home" and not putting it back into our economy so other people can work. Second, they're taking jobs for probably less than half that would be paid if there weren't a "race to the bottom" ... and that means less income taxes (if they pay it at all) and less payroll taxes (if they pay it at all). What it DOESN'T mean is less costs for public services.

Fair pay of citizens and permanent residents creates jobs!! Cheap pay of illegal aliens destroys jobs for everyone...

Right, that explains your corp gains charts well. NOT.

[TahitiNut]

104. "smacks of xenophobia"??? Foo. Shit. Wear it.

:shrug:

[ultraist]

81. Did our troops go in to take up residence in Iraq?

Gee, I thought they occuping Iraq by living on military bases they set up. Not assimiliating into the workforce there and taking up residence.

[TahitiNut]

101. Again, you don't seem to read. I said "the United States" ...

... not "our troops". Nice try.

Now, about jobs. Halliburton hires non-Iraqis to drive the fucking trucks!! Custer Battles hires non-Iraqis to perform "security" tasks. Mercenaries. Carpetbaggers. Unemployment in Iraq is over 60%!! But the Yewnited States is importing 'workers' and paying them up to $120K/year and more ... all on the working class U.S. taxpayer's dime.

Permanent U.S. military bases + Permanent control of Iraqi oil = "permanent residency".

Even in a facetious remark there's often truth.

[ultraist]

108. "You don't seem to" write "well"

So, the United States "immigrated" in Iraq and Afghanistan, huh

And who invaded Iraq? I'll give you a clue, representatives of the US States, our military--our TROOPS.

WHO went into Iraq?

What does hiring contract workers on the working class US Taxpayers dime have to do with your argument about "illegal aliens" being the blame for our job crisis?

Ironic how you noted that the working class are being burdened by the war. OH! But it's the undocumented workers that are the cause of their economic crisis.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

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[TahitiNut]

126. Again ... "smacks of xenophobia"??? Foo. Shit. Wear it.

:shrug:

[ultraist]

82. sorry, dupe

[PsN2Wind]

59. Illegal

adjective, against the law. I'll give you immigrant but they violate the law when they take that first step across the border.

[EFerrari]

106. So, is it more to your advantage to punish the poor or

to go after the conglomerates that benefit from this system?

I know lots of "aliens", lol. Believe me, shipping them home or picking their pockets won't help a bit.

The rule of law is of the utmost importance. But let's look, qui bono? Who really benefits the most from this mess? Let's focus up *there*.

The opposition has this already mapped out. They will play the race card if we stumble into this issue in a ham fisted way.

Myself, I'm a brown person and so not objective. But I see nothing but trouble for progressives if we don't think through all the stakes involved in the illegal immigration issue.

B.

[PsN2Wind]

111. Right now the poor are being used to punish the not yet poor,

and seemingly, some here are all for it. I agree that the immigration issue will be a problem for progressives, especially when they are viewed as feeling that it's only fair that citizens should have to compete against illegal aliens for their livelihood.
Put that on a sandwich board and walk through the poorer neighborhoods and see how many high-fives you get.

[EFerrari]

114. I think you might want to reread your own post and see

if it comports with your values.

This has always been a really tough issue. I've no illusions about changing your mind or anyone's mind tonight. And appreciate the airing out of ideas. That's the only way we'll get any where.

B.

[PsN2Wind]

118. I really see nothing that needs reread

I think that citizens and legal residents of this country should have to only compete, in this country, with the same for their livelihoods, while you appear to think they should have to compete against anyone that can get into the country by whatever means.
One of the reasons the Dems have elections close enough to steal is many working class people think the Dems are no better than the Repubs. NAFTA didn't help and proponents of unfettered immigration, be it legal or otherwise aren't doing much to change their minds.
Good night.

[TahitiNut]

123. Corporatists have built an "attractive nuisance" ...

... and, instead of building a fence around it, they're inviting the children in our global neighborhood to jump in and drown.

OK. Poor analogy. Maybe I should've tried one using the witch living in the gingerbread house?

The point is that people (children are people too) who go to what attracts them, when the gates are left open, aren't evil. I do not demonize illegal aliens. I demonize the inhabitants of the gingerbread houses. Those are the people who should be imprisoned.

While we're at it, we could also use a barrier that keeps the kids from being fattened up only to be devoured. And they should be disciplined when they go there against instructions ... not just let loose to go to the next gingerbread house.

[EFerrari]

128. I think we should go after the witch

But, I'm an optimist :)

Thanks for the airing out. We'll be talking about this again, let's get good at it. :)

[Tansy_Gold]

53. My great-grandparents came here legally, too,

and because they were Jews, they weren't allowed to join unions. Other relatives couldn't rent apartments because the for-rent signs all said "White only, no Irish."

Immigrants, documented or not, pay taxes. In many respects, they pay more taxes than some other folks, as a percentage of their income. They don't buy on the internet or via mail-order, so they pay all applicable sales taxes -- except, of course, when they buy cheap used stuff at yard sales because they can't afford anything else. (Something the middle class NEVER does.)

In the small fringe "suburb" where I live, the people at the bottom of the wage scale, legal or not, have no transportation (especially at today's gas prices) and so must shop locally in a seriously deteriorated "downtown." It's a small town, with outrageous prices. A gallon of milk that costs $2.59 at the chain supermarket in the next town is $4.59 at the single local mom-n-pop (except it's a chain, too.) There are no store brands, and few coupons. Those food stamps don't go very far. And the higher the price, the more sales tax is paid.

And I'm so glad you are able to begrudge them sending a few bucks back to the family in "the old country." Is that any different from, say, a trip to the South Pacific and U.S. dollars being spent in Papaeete? or is it only okay when it's an "American" sending money to the folks in another country? Maybe we should pass laws requiring all affluent Americans to spend their vacations in the U.S. and not put U.S. hotel workers out of jobs.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

89. Yes, "shame" on those "nasty drinking" "pissing" "illegals

Case in point.

[nomatrix]

105. You forgot "criminals"

Why do you hate America?

[ultraist]

110. Why do you think I hate America?

I was quoting the poster above making the point that these "illegal aliens are taking all of our jobs" arguments are often times riddled with xenophobia.

[nomatrix]

130. You are shaming an american citizen

for pointing out criminal behavior.

Public urination. Drunk in public. Illegal immigration is all just fine in your america.

Do you know why they do it? Our jails are full, they have no money to bail out, no fear of deportation. A slap on the wrist.

Good thing that bunch didn't get into a car and make an illegal turn in front of a car going 60 MPH on a highway and injure everyone in the vehicle. But, that's my story. In addition they had no license, insurance, and the vehicle was borrowed, hmmm. We all ended up in the hospital. Totalled the car, still suffer from the injuries 25 years ago. None spoke English. One pulled a knife on us in the emergency room. It could have been an isolated incidence.

But over the years I've encountered ignorant behavior from "visitors" to the U.S. This isn't just south of the border "visitors" but many nationalities who act like we are beneath them. Abuse will continue as long as respect is not required. Rules need to be inforced.

A long time ago, "visitors" were grateful to be in the U.S.

[ultraist]

136. Um.. if you didn't notice

That post was deleted. Apparently someone (not me) alerted on it because it was so offensive. I didn't shame anyone for "pointing out criminal behavior." I pointed out the xenophobia. Someone else noticed as well and alerted on it.

BTW, "public urination" and "drunk in public" are not exclusive to undocumented workers. Have you ever been on a college campus on Friday night? LMAO! Or noticed the millions of homeless people?

I've encountered much ingnorant behavior from Americans. Again, that is not exclusive to undocumented workers. How many people voted for Bush?

[Lisabtrucking]

157. Sorry if you thought I was soo offensive.

Sorry if you thought my post was so offensive, but it's the truth sometimes people don't like to hear the truth.

Using the word nasty is the right word to use because anyone who would urinate in front of a 13 year old is nasty. because it happen to be a certain group of people my post got deleted.

[SoCalDem]

91. Money trumps decency for a lot of employers..

We have a squeeze play at work in the US.. There are no more "agreements" between classes/races/ages..It's Darwinism at its purest..and money is the weapon of choice..

We all "need" it, and very few control the flow of it..Think back to the "Old West" days when a few rich land owners
controled" the flow of water to downstream farmers & ranchers.. They could control the wealth and competition by preventing water flowing to them..

This is what's at play here. If a construction company can get away with NOT paying union wages with benefits, and can pocket the difference himself, you can bet your life most will do it.,

The homes being built are NOT for "local consumption", so they couldn't give a crap about the welfare of the local community. They are in it for the fast buck, and then off to a new community to start all over again. A poor economy means there will always be desperate workers ready and willing to work for less to put food on THEIR table, so workers are like kleenex to these big companies..

What you are experiencing is nothing new to lots of places here in the US.. Young people cannot get a toe-hold in their own communities because they have been priced out of the market..


Societal breakdown is not just one thing or a few things, it's an "overload" of many things.. A small group of people with lots of money , few scruples, and NO civic mindedness can cripple a community. Where there are no decent jobs, there is little hope. There is higher crime, because people WILL steal if it comes right down to it, and they have no other way.. That means a need for MORE police, who will see THEIR duty as "cracking down" on criminals, and the more who get arrested, the higher the need for McPrisons.It costs more to incarcerate a young person than to educate them, but McPrisons are a cottage industry these days, and there's money to be made..

Divorce rates and domestic abuse flourish in economically strapped areas. Depression and mental illnes are companions too.

A few greedy corporate types who just want the money can kill a community in a few years..

[sharonking21]

115. Congratulations, QC

My heart is with all three groups--the working poor, the working class, and undocumented workers. I do not object at all to your postings--they are quite thoughtful. It is too late at night for me to intelligently discuss what you put up here, but here are a few thoughts.

There are some here on DU who unthinkingly rail against the undocumented workers and these I have no patience with--my attitude here is a product of my bourgeois education since I did most of my post-graduate work in history and know the drawbacks of nativist thinking.

You can see some of my earlier posts on the above topic and on the topic of exactly how much of a burden undocumented workers really are--I think they are not given enough credit--at the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1696018

However, my father was a house painter and growing up, I very much led a working class life, so I also understand fully and in gory detail why the working class fears undocumented workers.

K-W's post about having to do the spadework that initially built the labor movement is relevant I think.

Winning Democratic control back would also help.

We used to think that free trade would solve problems like Mexico, but now we are no longer so sure, are we? Perhaps in the long run, but that is cold comfort to the working poor of today.

Also, it would be nice if Democrats hadn't lost most interest in the issues surrounding poverty, housing, the working class, and the working poor. Hate to say it, but LBJ seemed to be the last president to really try to address these problems. And the Democrats of today seem to think that Clinton's stab at welfare reform solved all the problems. Sometimes I wonder if the "What's the Matter with Kansas" type of phenomena are truly based on the Republican values thing or if they feel abandoned by us.

Have you read, or had your class read, Shepler's The Working Poor? I loved Nickle and Dimed. Wish I could make it required reading for everyone.

[UdoKier]

125. Why call them "undocumented workers"?

Their presence in the United States is ILLEGAL. They entered illegally. They may very well HAVE some documents, but none that entitle them to live or work in the US.

"We used to think that free trade would solve problems like Mexico, but now we are no longer so sure, are we? Perhaps in the long run, but that is cold comfort to the working poor of today. "

Maybe the DLC Clintonoid republicrats did. Labor democrats NEVER did, they still do not, and they are correct. It is a race to the bottom, and the Democratic party made the worst mistake ever by jumping on that bandwagon.


"Also, it would be nice if Democrats hadn't lost most interest in the issues surrounding poverty, housing, the working class, and the working poor."

Democratic politicians, maybe. Not those of us who work for a living. We get lip service, and zero action.

" Hate to say it, but LBJ seemed to be the last president to really try to address these problems."

True.

" And the Democrats of today seem to think that Clinton's stab at welfare reform solved all the problems."

Again, maybe media whores and politicians - wealthy intellectuals. The rank and file never thought that.

" Sometimes I wonder if the "What's the Matter with Kansas" type of phenomena are truly based on the Republican values thing or if they feel abandoned by us."

You wonder? Working people clearly have been abandoned by the party much of the time. And democrats are so easily suckered into the GOP & the media's silly wedge issue debates that working people's issues are always swept under the rug. I don't blame the democrats entirely on this, since the media has a de facto blackout on this sort of topic now. The only solution I can think of is for democrats to boycott the corporate media, or when they do appear, CONSISTENTLY talk about only working/poor people's issues, no matter what the media whores want to talk about. Use every second they can on C-SPAN to pound away at the message that we are the party to help lift up the working man and keep the middle class afloat.

I don't mean to seem confrontational, but as a person struggling to raise a family on a low income, I do get frustrated with democrats who put things like abortion access or gay marriage above LIFE-AND-DEATH issues like the minimum wage, health care for the working poor, etc. If you live comfortably, it may be easy to not realize it, but the fact that the minimum wage has been stuck at 5.50/hr. for a decade has undoubtedly contributed to people's DEATHS. and the lack of health care for working people has certainly been DIRECTLY responsible for even more unnecessary deaths.

[sharonking21]

147. Terms of un-endearment

I call them undocumented workers in order to avoid the highly loaded illegal alien terminology that seems to place all the blame on them rather than on our own economic and political system.

I call them undocumented workers because, having come from a background that ranged at times from working class to impoverished (depending upon whether or not my father could get work) myself, I know how much it hurts when, say, the middle-class people I know here in Texas bandy words about such as "white trash" or "trailer trash" or even the less charged but still vastly condescending "lower class."

I call them undocumented workers because I always think of Hector, someone I knew who was an undocumented worker working for a contract firm as a janitor, and how much the term illegal alien, while undoubtedly a coldly accurate term, hurt his feelings.

And, yes, you do sound a bit confrontational. Basically I'm on your side and I am trying to provoke conversations within the Democratic Party that might remind people that we have forgotten our roots.

[QC]

140. Yes, a lot of people do feel abandoned by the Democrats.

I'd be sitting on a nice little pile of cash right now if I had a buck for every time some Regular Joe has told me that "the Democrats couldn't care less about people like me." I never have a good reply to that one because it is, to a great degree, true. Consider how the stereotypes fly whenever the subject of working-class voters comes up around here and how threads dealing with class issues generally drop like rocks. The American Left has become too thoroughly bourgeois to give much thought to people who change oil at Jiffy Lube or diapers at the nursing home.

I agree with those who say that employers are to blame for the problem, not the workers themselves, but I am disturbed by the tendency of some here (always the same three or four people) to respond to concerns about immigration by rushing in, trailing clouds not of glory but of self-righteous indignation, and decreeing that anyone who thinks there's a problem is a racist classist xenophobe. It's a shitty way to treat people who fear for their families' livelihoods, and it's a supremely bad political strategy, because it does nothing but confirm the GOP talking about about "liberal elitists." Some seem to forget--if they ever knew at all--that the same concerns that motivate some to immigrate move others who are already here to fear immigration. In both cases it's people's natural desire to provide for themselves and their families.

Thanks so much for your kind remarks--I really do appreciate them. As I said earlier, my point here was to describe how things look to those who are barely making it and falling further behind. I'm glad you can see that. And no, I haven't read Shepler's book. I'll add it to my long list of books I'm trying to get to--unfortunately, teaching six writing classes leaves little time for my own reading.

[UdoKier]

116. They are correct in their resentment...

...so long as that resentment is aimed at

a. The fatcats who continue to hire illegals at slave wages

b. The republican and democrat politicians who have reached a tacit consensus to NOT control the border, or rein in legal immigration.


I personally believe in restricting immigration, as well as scrapping NAFTA, but I draw the line at blaming the people who have come up here to work. I have nothing but respect for them - but I still believe that if they are illegal, they must be kept out, deported, etc.


It is MEXICO's responsibility to take care of these people and stop foisting them off on the US. We are NOT doing a good job of providing for our own underclass. The last thing we need to do is bring in MORE poor folks, for the sole purpose of depressing wages on behalf of traitorous businesses.

[TahitiNut]

134. Exactly.

I'm not in favor of either patting the illegal aliens on the back or jailing them for years. They're not the "enemy" - they're the tools. No civilized society can survive if it doesn't enforce its laws equitably, and legislate them equitably.

Anyone who knowingly hires illegal aliens should be imprisoned, their business license revoked, and their assets siezed just like they're drug dealers. In effect, they are.

Illegal aliens should be deported and banned from re-entering the U.S. for 10 years on penalty of imprisonment for two years. I'd make an exception and grant amnesty (and permanent residency?) to those who provide conclusive evidence (including convincing testimony) that their employer knew they were illegal aliens.

[ultraist]

137. Pie in the sky

There is no way they will jail employers for hiring undocumented workers. Don't you think it's counterproductive to jail employers, thus take jobs off the market?

Fines are a reasonable punishment. Repeated charges should be met with loss of business privilege license.

I think there are more effective ways in attacking the job crisis and the pressure that is being put on the middle and lower classes though. Raising minimum wage is a must. Restructuring the tax system is another. Eliminating corporate welfare to companies that outsource would also have a big impact.

[B Calm]

138. It's not the Immigrate's fault, blame it on the cheap labor con who

hires them~!

[Kansas Wyatt]

141. The Democratic Party can choose...

To represent illegal immigration or they can choose to represent the working class.

For those of you who seem to think that illegal immigration does nothing to hurt the working class, you will continue to lose support from the working class. Your ideals of free flowing borders to benefit ALL workers, hurts your fellow citizens who are less fortunate than you and those just starting out in life.

Illegal immigration into this country can be stopped, but only if our Government puts an end to it by adjusting and enforcing the laws that they already have. Strict penalties placed on employers of illegal immigrants would have an immediate affect, followed by substantial bills sent (and collected) to the illegal's country of origin for the return of their citizen back to their country.

Either the Democratic Party can represent the working class on the immigration issue, or the Democratic Party can continue to whine about the working class always being tricked into voting for the Republican Party.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

142. QC is not blaming the immigrants

QC is merely stating what illegal immigration looks like to a blue collar worker.

In Oregon, where the number of Latino workers increased noticeably in the 19 years I lived there, the big boys talked out of both sides of their mouths, especially in the agricultural sector. On the one hand, the local authorities in rural areas were openly racist toward Latinos ("driving while black" was replaced by "driving while Hispanic") and made a lot of noise about the problems of illegal immigration.

On the other hand, the growers who were the other part of the local power structure were delighted to hire illegal workers and give them storage sheds to sleep in.

At some point, the job of picking berries and fruit stopped being a summer job for American-born teens and started being a summer job for illegal workers from Latin America.

Even in Portland, the day laborers congregated openly at a certain intersection every morning, and no one seemed interested in catching the employers who came with trucks to hire a crew.

I do not blame the immigrants themselves. When you have a poor country right up against a very rich country, people from the poor country are going to try to get a piece of the action, especially if there are greedy employers willing to hire them. (Japan gets illegal immigrants from China, the Philippines, and other poor countries in the Pacific region.)

But you have to wonder how Mexico would be different if it hadn't had the "safety valve" of exporting its surplus workers. Maybe there would have been another populist revolution. Maybe the would-be immigrants' ambitions could have been channeled into entrepreneurship. Who knows?

[QC]

164. Thank you, Lydia! n/t

[PsN2Wind]

145. Well QC, you gave it a good try

but it's impossible to explain the policy of trickle up economics to some of the people on this board. We know that "trickle down economics" is where the government removes much of the tax burden and regulatory responsibility from corporations allowing them ever greater profits which are then supposed to trickle down to the workers as greater pay and benefits. "Trickle up economics" increases the labor pool, by any means, so there is greater competition for the available jobs, which puts downward pressure on wages allowing the corporations to reap greater profits.
Tansy Gold feels you should just get off your ass and go out there and compete against those immigrants. Of course that would mean we would have to do away with most of the workplace regulation and that crazy minimum wage and the other labor laws that stifle true competition. Eventually we would get to the point where jobs in this country would no longer be attractive to immigrants and all citizens could work for a pittance which should make that payroll processing much simpler, maybe to the point I could do it.

[ultraist]

149. I doubt, QC, who has a PhD will be competing with "illegal aliens"

should just get off your ass and go out there and compete against those immigrants

He is a professor.

Eventually we would get to the point where jobs in this country would no longer be attractive to immigrants and all citizens could work for a pittance which should make that payroll processing much simpler, maybe to the point I could do it.

Are you suggesting that it would be ideal to not have any immigrants in our country? Are you aware of the fact that 60% of our TOP researchers are foreign born and that if we totally closed our borders we would fall far behind the rest of the world in numerous areas?

[ProfessorGAC]

152. He's Also Wrong In His Terminology

Trickle up economics does not require the depression of wages but is rather demand side that assures the people have more dispensible income (not less) to encourage consumption.

So, i think there is a less than stellar econometric background behind this post.
The Professor

[PsN2Wind]

158. Sorry Prof

Some of us had to go to work and build the universities while paying taxes to provide the Pell grants and student loan guarantees so you could come here a make such pompous statements "a less than stellar econometric background". Maybe if I put it in big block letters. I was referring in a sarcastic way to the way the out-sourcing of jobs and the import of labor depress wages allowing greater profits to the boss man. Maybe I'm not stellar on econometric matters but I do understand supply and demand.

[K-W]

159. So he should feel guilty because you dont know what your talking about?

Right...

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PsN2Wind]

153. Possibly had you read my post

You'd have noticed that I was quoting another poster, one on your side of the debate saying that we should just get off our asses and go to work and compete with the illegals.
I said nothing about no immigrants in the country. Some of us have the ability to differentiate between legal and illegal. Are you claiming that those TOP researchers are in the country illegally?

[overly fluorinated]

146. Give a listen to this song

James McMurtry - 'We Can't Make It Here Anymore'
http://www.digitalvisionmedia.com/compadre/We_Cant_Band.mp3

[Ripley]

148. Great post.

I think a lot of the claims of "racism" have to do with where you live, if you know what I mean.

In my area the Mexican population has boomed and they have almost completely taken over the roofing business. A couple of years ago an illegal 16 year old Mexican boy fell off of a roof of a commercial building and died. It was amazing to me how little outrage was shown for that in the paper. I imagine if he had been an American boy there would be a lot of outrage. The company is still in business after violating who knows how many labor laws.

The companies are predators. They treat the "illegals" as expendable work units and they don't care if the locals sink into poverty. That bottom line is all that matters. They should punish the companies that hire these people, not the people.

[tsuki]

169. What county? I have said this for decades. I am upset that our

workers are under-educated. At one time, the unions used to train the workers, but in NeoCon Land, unions are very bad. But the education system in my county (Walton) considers that everyone that works with their hands are "mudmen," so they send the discipline problems to "vocational" school because that is all they are good for. Tradespeople in today's world need to be specially trained. We are in big trouble.

So we import illegals that have no idea how to properly build a house, plumb or wire or AC or sheetrock or paint for pennies on the dollar. A lot of people buying these overpriced houses are being scammed.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

177. Right, I've seen documentaries on the vo-ed systems in other countries

They consists of a combination of classroom learning and apprenticeship in conjunction with local employers. In countries where few high school graduates go to universities, there is no shame in going to a vocational school.

[tsuki]

185. Yes, any country that does not train its workers is doomed to failure.

We encouraged the unions to train the journeymen, but when the unions expected compensation, we busted them for overpricing. Stupid.

[nightperson]

192. "no idea how to properly build a house, plumb or wire or AC"

"Scammed" is too gentle a word, but I suspect you're right. I have too much experience with licensed guys showing up at various (non-slum) residential disasters saying "who jerry-rigged this upside down/inside out installation that was bound to lead to this?". Electricity is not a child's toy, nor are plumbing or heating.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

176. great post

and i would add that, as a fellow floridian (central, in my case), that is not just a coastal phenomenon.

i would add to your assessment, without taking anything away,add to that my perception that many corporations' HQ's also move down here (to avoid unions and organized labor that are much more powerful up North) and you have a recipe for perma-low-wage syndrome. When companies relocate from the North to Florida, they don't bring their wages. Florida is renowned as a pool of cheap skilled labor. add to that a massive supply of cheap day labor in Mexican and Caribbean immigrants, and you have all the makings for a massive gap between working-class and rich, with little middle.

[QC]

179. "a massive gap between working-class and rich, with little middle"

That's certainly the situation here. Very small middle class, a small number of fabulously rich, and lots and lots of people who work multiple jobs to scrape by and are falling further behind every day.

[sharonking21]

196. Are you talking about your own area

or in general? The reason I ask is I think I have perceived the same thing going on here in Texas and I suspect in most places.

Texas is urbanizing and historically I thought that has been associated with diminution of the gaps, but doesn't seem to be operating here, any more anyway.

On an anecdotal level, it looks to me as if the true middle class is getting smaller, with great generational migration going on--the migratory part consisting of about a third of those being socially mobile into the upper middle class and about 2/3 socially mobile downwards.

I note that even the department stores are positioning themselves to be either upscale or downscale--much more so than they were previously.

I see lots of single-family housing built for those with high incomes or moderately high incomes but very little housing built that is for anyone else (except apartments located waaay out from the centers of cities).

We have a public transportation system that is a joke. That means that if people living way out have an emergency with their cars, they can't get to work and are either viewed as "unreliable' or get fired. And because of distance and dispersion, they are unlikely to have someone in the neighborhood that they can ask for a ride.

Our tax structure here puts a much higher personal burden on the working class and the poor than it does on others.

[QC]

197. I'm talking about my area, but I think it applies to most places.

The working class has been under assault for over thirty years now.

[XemaSab]

184. It's such a tough issue

I think it's right up there with gun control as a really potentially divisive issue for the left.

Mexicans come to this country for opportunities they can't get at home. I've worked outside in California's central valley in the summer, and I've seen tomato pickers get to the next field over at 7 am and when we're quitting at 2 because it's dangerously hot (100+), they're still going strong. And they're probably making a fraction of what we make as biologists, and they're sending money home.

I've been to Arizona and seen jugs of water stashed out in the boonies for people coming across the border, via the most dangerous route for illegal immigrants. Collegues of mine have found dead people out in the desert.

For me, risking your life to work all day doing hot, dangerous, low paying work boggles the mind. Therefore, I'm not going to get upset with people here. They are doing what they think is best.

I think the place to combat illegal immigration is on the borders.

The US has a 2,000 mile border with Mexico. I don't know how many agents there are working for the INS, but this is not an impossible length of border to build secure fencing, put more agents on patrol, and use motion detectors and cameras to see people crossing the border.

If illegal immigration was taken seriously, this is what we would do, but no, we're screwing around. We know where they're coming in, let's create American jobs by getting serious about the border patrol. According to a former INS agent interviewed on CNN, there are a little over 10,000 agents guarding both the northern and southern borders, and at any given time about 2,500 agents are on duty. If we added 2,000 agents, we could have one more agent for every four miles of the southern border on duty at any given time. If we added 4,000 agents, we could add an agent for every two miles of the southern border. But no, we're goofing off.

And a big part of this is that Americans love cheap things. We like cheap food and we like cheap trinkets and we like cheap housing. If illegal immigration was curtailed, we'd have to pay more for American goods without a corresponding rise in consumer wages, which would in turn drive jobs overseas.

On the negative side, driving wages down for the trades depresses blue-collar wages, as the OP was saying. It creates a race to the bottom. Creating good jobs in Mexico will also keep would-be illegals at home, but it seems that a lot of that comes at the cost of exporting jobs south.

It's a tough one.

[KnowerOfLogic]

186. I'm at the bottom too, but immigration is not the problem; if there was

some regulation to make sure that a living wage was paid to all workers, immigrants or not, then wages would not be driven down. Now you can claim that there are too many workers because of immigrants, which is driving down wages, but that doesn'tseem to hold up, because immigrants *buy stuff* and use services, and so on, and thus create jobs. There are plenty of arguments about immigration, but i really think that immigartion is the least of the poor, working person's problem in america today.

[Leilani]

189. What is so tragic about this situation

is that Dems, who supposedly represent workers, are running away from this issue as quickly as they can.

Public opinion has been smoldering for quite a while, & the Bush administration, like the Dems,is simply ignoring public opinion.

The Republican voters are against the current policies, & they are getting their message to their members in Congress.

If the Dems were to take up this issue, in a constructive way, proposing some common sense legislation, such as prosecuting employers who are hiring illegals, & providing support for additional resources on the border, something might actually get done. And the party would be recognized as trying to enforce laws & helping workers.

On too many important issues of the day, the Dems remain silent. I don't know if they are without ideas, or they're afraid to step up.

[QC]

190. It's been many years since Dems supported workers.

They've been in headlong pursuit of the yuppies for over thirty years now.

Maybe the v-chip and school uniforms will do the job.

[left15]

191. Manufacturing perspective

Here is a perspective from a small manufacturing company (owned by a German parent company).

We have 10 million in sales, and 50 employees, mostly Hispanic, and about 35% through a temp agency.

Why mostly Hispanic? Because we only start new temps at $8.00 and that’s who shows up from the temp agency. We can only start them at $8.00 because we only pay new permanent employees $10.00 to start. Most of that $2.00 increase is eaten up by Medical Insurance. After about 10 years employees top off at about $16.00

We require the temp agency to run their SS number before we bring them on, and run it again if we hire them.

Sometimes the SS number goes through the first time, and fails the second, because by then someone else in a different state is using it.

Why do we pay such low wages? Because that is what our market will bear.

Our competition is much larger, and has plants in Mexico and China. The only reason we can compete at all is because our product is very heavy, and shipping is expensive.

For the last 5 years, we have averaged $500,000 to 700,000 in profits, which is only 5%-7% return.

At 5-7% return, we aren’t really worth the risk of staying in business. If our expensive 30 year old equipment breaks down, a major rebuild is $3 million, or equivalent to 6 years of profit. When that happens our business is only worth about 3 million in land and remaining equipment, In the time it would take to rebuild, our customers would go somewhere else. Our parent company could sell us off for probably 12 million right now , and invest it in Starbucks and do much better.

About 3 years ago, a smaller company in our industry went union, and they are now out of business.

What’s the solution? I have no idea, most likely we should be out of business, and in reality, we will be in a year or two.

I see two problems at work, labor rates and productivity.

The US makes 3 to 15 times as much money as the rest of the world for doing the same work, unless we put up trade barriers, labor rates will continue to equalize.

The other is productivity, on average, through automation, a job that took 4 employees 30 years ago now only takes one.

I used to think the key was education that we should educate our people better (which we should do anyhow), and to let other countries do the production, and keep higher paying jobs here, but I recently told that our competition is now hiring engineers with full 4 year degrees for $15k per year (but I don’t know if this is really true)

So I guess I don’t really have a point, other that to provide a little different perspective, but thanks for reading.

[B Calm]

194. What does your CEO make per year? Does he have a 128 foot

yacht? Does he have million dollar homes scattered all around the world?

http://www.aflcio.org/corporateamerica/paywatch/ceou/

[left15]

202. don't know,

couldn't say, he lives in Germany.

So his pay would come out of our 500-700k profit.

Our indirect staff (General manager, Plant Manager, QC) make around $250k per year combined, which according to salary, is about half what the avg is for our area.

[Maestro]

201. The face of immigration

I have read through most of this thread and there is really not much I can add. The reasons for immigration are varied. Most of the blame for illegal immigration in my eyes lies with hypocritical business that complain about immigration yet pay illegal workers under the table dirt cheap wages. No wonder they come. I also believe that illegal and legal emigreés to this country provide much to the economy. They building the infrastructure of this county. They are helping the restaurant industry, the service industry and filling the jobs that many will not fill.

The pictures below are kids in my class. They are all immigrants. Some legal; others not. And the ones that are legal have parents that are not sometimes and have actually been separated from their parents because of forced deportation of one or both parents. These kids are incredible! They are eager to learn and want to be part of this country.