I Hope The Next Pope Is Better Than This Past One

[THUNDER HANDS]

I'm sorry this Pope died and I'm sorry many DUers are sad over his passing, but I'm looking forward to there being a new Pope. Frankly, the Catholic Church needs a new Pope like a struggling sports franchise needs a new Coach or Manager.

Maybe the new guy will be energetic and lively. Hopefully he'll be compassionate and progressive and understanding.

Hopefully he'll consider stopping genocide in Africa and other parts of the world more important than stopping the spread of birth control and abortion throughout the world.

Hopefully he won't be a puppet of the people who select him and the institutional corruption that permeates the Catholic hierarchy.

Hopefully, this is a new day for not just Catholics, but for mankind as well.

Choose wisely Cardinals.

[Goblinmonger]

1. I have long

given up my Catholic ties (went to a high school seminary for three years), but this pope was pretty good when he first came in. He was actually quite progressive. Not so much in the last years which kind of makes me think that he was not the one making the decisions in the past years because he was not able. Which probably doesn't bode well for the next pope being progressive.

[TwilightZone]

2. A little early, Magic Rat.

Reports are that Fox jumped the gun (which led others to do the same), and the pope isn't actually dead yet.

Edit: link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3402924#3402986

[THUNDER HANDS]

4. i'm sure he's dead

the Vatican is just not ready to announce it yet. Two weeks ago he was eating Scones and tea.

[TwilightZone]

6. The AP is reporting that the Vatican denied the reports and that

his heart and brain are still functioning.

I suspect that it'll be over soon, though.

[THUNDER HANDS]

8. Experts Agree, the Pope is either dead or alive

how long before we see that on CNN again? :D

[TwilightZone]

9. Hehe. Yep, that certainly fits.

This incessant need for news orgs to be "first" to proclaim an outcome is getting tiresome. The Pope's death will be reported thousands of times in the coming days, and no one will remember (or care) who was the first to do so!

[Javaman]

48. The news of my death has been grossly exaggerated...

Mark Twain.

[AndyTiedye]

3. No Such Luck

I think we have been hearing from "the new Pope" for a while now.
Not a peep about Iraq (unlike the soon-to-be-departed JP2), and
lots about gays and abortion, in perfect harmony with the RNC and
the Fundies.

[zanne]

5. The way things are going, I doubt it.

The USA isn't the only country caught up in religious fervor. It's spreading around the world. In the present social and religious atmosphere, I'll bet the next pope will be even more conservative. (Even though it seems impossible).

[Bridget Burke]

7. JPII was energetic & lively before the assassination attempt.

He almost died & his health was permanently affected. In recent years, the conservative Cardinals who run the Vatican had more control--that's the source of some of what you dislike.

The next Pope might make you appreciate this one better.

[trotsky]

29. "the conservative Cardinals who run the Vatican"

You mean, the conservative Cardnials that JP2 appointed?

[LostinVA]

10. The new one is gonna make JPII seem like

a Unitarian... I mean it. Bad, bad times coming from the Vatican, my friends... I predict a break-off of the US, Canadian, and maybe Western Europe Church within the next 50 years.... (most US Catholics are NOT wingnuts, and are decently liberal, cafeteria Catholics)

[Selatius]

11. I find the position of pope to be an awesomely illegitimate post

Who is anyone to claim to speak for God? Much less Jesus Christ himself? I don't need a pope to talk to God. I don't need his approval for anything that has always been my choice and mine alone. If I wanted to give up my gift of thought and reason, a gift God gave me, in favor of blind obedience, I'd be in favor of a pope, but I'm not, so I won't. I don't believe I was given the gift of freewill and reason so that I could throw it away for superstition and bigotry.

Don't mistake this for hatred of Pope John Paul II as a person. I wish no ill-will towards any man, and if he is about to expire, my he find peace, but what I hate is the exercise of self-claimed authority where no authority exists. That kind of awesome arrogance and conceit has no room with me.

[sandnsea]

20. That isn't what the Church teaches

It teaches that one must believe Church teaching mentally and spiritually. Questioning and thinking is encouraged. The Bible isn't even considered the ONLY source for spiritual understanding and guidance. That's why the lives and works of the Saints are important. All anybody has to do is to be willing to continue to work towards understanding of Church teaching, not accept it on blind faith. It's actually much less dogmatic than, say, Baptists or other fundamentalists. And most of what a Pope says isn't infallible doctrine either.

Granted, alot of priests don't teach this as much as they should, but thinking really is a primary foundation of Catholicism. You think Gallileo would have came up with his ideas if freedom of thought wasn't encouraged? Or even Luther?

[grumpy old fart]

25. Lives and works of the Saints is very instructive indeed......

In the responsibility of the church for untold atrocities through the ages....

[sandnsea]

26. Not too objective

It's amazing how supposedly liberal and enlightened thinkers can be so incredibly narrow-minded when it comes to religion. You are aware there are scores of Saints who had nothing whatsoever to do with war or atrocities, right?

[grumpy old fart]

30. Of course, but why are the bad ones, the murderers, still Saints??

Kind of underminds the whole "saint" thing, no?

[The Magistrate]

33. If Recollention Serves, Sir

Not every Pope is canonized, not by a long sight....

[sandnsea]

35. Lots of reasons

Primarily the Saints aren't viewed as evil by everyone. If you're on the side of those killed, they're evil. If you're on the side of those they were fighting for, they're Saints. When missionaries went to "save" the "savages", their intentions weren't evil. In the end, we're all imperfect and the best of intentions can go horribly wrong. Catholics don't get the same benefit of the doubt lefty liberals do though. People may have suffered and died under Castro? Fingers in ears, la la la la, don't want to hear it.

[grumpy old fart]

54. Who's putting Castro up for sainthood?

Sorry, in my mind torture and murder doesn't equal something worthy of veneration, no matter what the religious excuse.

[Selatius]

27. Galileo was persecuted for his work on heliocentrism, remember?

Unless I am wrong in stating that he was tried by the Inquisition in 1633 and sentenced to house arrest. If I'm not mistaken, his book Dialogues was put on the church blacklist, until 1822. Are you serious in bringing up Galileo in defending the Roman Catholic church???

[sandnsea]

34. How'd he get the idea?

Because learning and thinking was encouraged at the time. Divisons between enlightened and conservative have been going on since the beginnng of time I imagine. Then, like now, there were supporters and detractors. Church haters tend to focus on the detractors and ignore the fact that many Popes and Catholic leaders have done alot to encourage education and civilization.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html

[Selatius]

51. Well, it is because of cases like these that the church and state were...

separated to begin with. This is the raw argument behind church-state separation today, and it has been since the Enlightenment. While the church gets credit where credit is due, it should and must also be criticized where criticism is due as well. This is only fair, and while it may be true that Galileo got where he was because of the church, it is also true that he died under house arrest in his last years for "going too far."

The simple fact of the matter is that no matter if it was a progressive or conservative faction in power within the church, not any one of them had the God-given right to that kind of authority and power over others. Not one of them. That is what I mean when I mention illegitimate power.

[distressedsister]

37. Condoms. AIDS. 'Nuff said.

[sandnsea]

45. Horrific, I agree

But my post wasn't about sexual doctrine, it was about freeom of thought.

[JackRiddler]

42. you gotta be kidding me...

So now you're going to credit Galileo and Luther to the Vatican?

Does it occur to you that free thinking occurs in individuals independently of what mechanisms a reigning church may have in espousing, suppressing, or controlling it?

The history of Catholic sponsored scholarship is impressive, though. It's a very intellectual church compared to what goes on at Bob Jones, I suppose. Excellent art. Really excellent.

[sandnsea]

44. I credited the Vatican????

Wow. Selective reading.

If the Church were as stifling as people claim, as Bob Jones University is, there would have been no Galileo or Luther. It takes a level of freedom of thought to even gain the knowledge to lead to their ideas. That's what I said.

And yes, the history of Catholic sponsored scholarship is very impressive. Too bad people forget that.

[Bridget Burke]

22. Matthew 16:18-19

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

But you can find lots of support for your opinion here:
www.ianpaisley.org/toc.asp?loc=rome

[tjdee]

31. That's reading *way* too much into a quote, IMO.

If I'm understanding correctly, and I've heard this before, Peter was kind of like the first pope (if not indeed the first pope)--because of that *one* verse.

I never understood that. Eh, I'm not a Catholic though. I'd be curious in reading the history of the Pontiff, maybe I'll do some googling on that.

[sandnsea]

36. Apostolic Succession

It's not just the Catholic Church, others claim Apostolic Succession too. There's even a Lutheran sect that claims it. Pretty good overview here:

http://www.answers.com/topic/episcopalian-church-governance

[tjdee]

38. Ah yes, but that's because Episcopals come from Catholics...

If my thinking is correct, Episcopalians are basically American Anglicans, and Anglicans came from Henry the eighth, who broke with the Catholic church when he sought a divorce that wasn't granted. (Perhaps that is the extremely basic kindergarten version of what happened.)

But thank you for the link--I'm interested in reading more about it, and I certainly wasn't aware that some Lutherans believe that.
In general, I think church organizations are kind of kooky...but that's another post for another time!

[sandnsea]

43. Orthodox too

or vice versa, depending on which way you want to go with it.

Some sects that broke off from Catholicism chose to do without apostolic succession, some didn't. I'm not a religious historian, so I don't know why. Just that the doctrine isn't limited to the Catholic Church.

If one believes Catholicism and/or Orthodoxy is the original Christianity, than Apostolic Succession IS the way that verse ought be interpreted. Wouldn't you think?

[tjdee]

47. Oh, for sure.

I see what you're saying, and I think I was being a little short-sighted in my Protestant memory.

[alphadog]

39. ???

Perfect, then you don't have to be a Catholic. What exactly is your point?

[Selatius]

52. Point was to get my view out there and hopefully stir some debate

[xpat]

12. Don't count on an improvement

The lead horse in this race is Wotyla's enforcer.

Remember, these are the guys who suppressed Galileo, burned Giordano Bruno and collaborated with Hitler.

Is there any question in anyone's mind as to why the founding fathers hated organized religion?

[ScreamingMeemie]

13. And yet, he'll still do something to piss off somebody somewhere.

:hi:

[THUNDER HANDS]

15. I'm not pissed off at him

I think he was a severely flawed Pope, and will no doubt have to pay for the sex abuse scandal that occured before and during his rein.

He didn't stop it, when he probably had the power to do so. And he KNEW what was going on.

I don't hate the man though. I'm sure he was a very nice guy to those who knew him.

I just hope the next guy is an improvement.

[ScreamingMeemie]

16. I didn't say you were. Sorry for any inference. I'm just making a point.

Unless one is perfect, someone's gonna be mad. Whether it's decisions he makes or doesn't make. He'll be on someone's poop list...unless the world experiences utter and total peace during his reign. That is all I am saying.

[THUNDER HANDS]

17. oh okay, sorry i snapped at you

:hi:

[Zenlitened]

14. It would be a breath of fresh air, wouldn't it?

I find the church's position on gays and lesbians absolutely unforgivable. It overshadows any good that may have been done, in my view.

[jonnyblitz]

18. people seem to think the few good things negate the bad things.

I respectfully DO NOT agree.

[Cuban_Liberal]

19. Or vice versa. n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Perspectives

It really does depend on which direction one is looking from. The reactions would be the same if it were Bill Clinton or Shrub. Some would be upset, others would be 'happy,' and still others wouldn't give a flip one way or the other. What I find so disagreeable is we are being told HOW to feel about this event. My wish for the Pope is that his passing is better than those whom he and his Church turned their backs on.

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. Except we all have "bad things". I surely would not want the sum of

my existance to rest upon the "bad things" that I have done. That's the point I am trying to make.

[Zenlitened]

40. Agreed, that's a valid point.

The difference of course is that you and I don't have the power -- nor the many responsibilities -- of the pope, but I see what you're saying. :)

[dhinojosa]

23. I do hope for a modern one, especially for Dookus' sake.

hehehe

[Malva Zebrina]

24. There have been rumors that the next Pope will be Cardinal Ratzinger

http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/20/wchurch20.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/20/ixnewstop.html

[Dutch]

50. Gotta love point 3

So abortion, the death penalty and war are all bad, but only abortion is really bad. This guy sounds like a fundy wet dream. And I say that as someone with a great deal of time for JPII.

[theboss]

28. I respectfully disagree

I'm not a Catholic, but I've studied history. I don't recall any Pope who was more involved in world politics (generally working for good) and more concerned with relations with non-Catholics.

I don't agree with every position he took, but if nothing else, he role in ending the Soviet Union made the lives of millions better.

I doubt any Pope is ever going to send Condoms to Africa so I don't see how that can be a criticism.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[deadparrot]

46. Believe me, if you're liberal you do *not* want a new pope.

I'm a lapsed Catholic, and this guy is probably about as liberal as its going to get for the next few decades (and he's not too liberal). They're expecting the next guy to be extremely conservative (as in, removing all musical instruments but the organ and banning girls from being altar servers, let alone priests). It's like a pendulum; Vatican II was the swing to liberal/progressivism, now it's swinging back the other way.

Of course, this guy was a surprise, so anything can happen, but the odds are against it.

[CatholicEdHead]

53. Sounds like Nebraska today

in that women are pretty much banned from anything in the mass and if you question authority you run a good chance of excommunication.

[JanMichael]

49. From everything I've heard and read the next Pope will likely be MUCH more

...conservative than this Pope.

Not that I like (Actually the condom issue is barbaric IMHO)the policies of the current Pope, nor do I have any respect for the position either, but compared to what's about to happen JPII will look pretty good in comparison.