Vets, your thoughts on war.

[nytemare]

Having been to Iraq in 91 just after the first Gulf War, my feelings on war are now changed from what they were.

I feel the war in Afghanistan was justified, and I feel we did not concentrate enough effort there to insure stability, and get the main target.

As for Iraq..I originally thought it justified, but after so much has come to light, including the Duelfer report, I no longer think that.

WWI and II, very justified.

Korea-I need to read more on to make an educated opinion.

Vietnam-We should have stuck with just sending some "advisors",and withdrawn when Kennedy was thinking of doing so. That was LBJ's biggest screw up.

Your thoughts?

[BikeWriter]

1. War sucks.

[nytemare]

3. Yes, war does. What better reason not to go to war unless

necessary?

People are not meant to see these things.

[dbeach]

6. Chickenhawks make money on ALL these wars...

even WW II the war that has been romanticized by propaganda media..

Smedley Darlington Butler Mag. Gen. USMC :"War is a racket.Always has been"

VN 1969 101st
I know many Vets who consider GWOT {triggered by 9/11} Afi and Iraq as wars for bushco oil and grandeur..

Col. David Hackworth is one of the most decorated Veterans in US history .. served in Korea and VN ..Cong. Medal of Honor..

said on CNN back in 03 that the combat Vets that he speaks with and that is thousands of Vets are against the Iraq war for many reasons..


VN Veterans learned a bitter lesson..the country that they loved lies to its troops and its citizens. Gulf of Tonkin,Agent orange,PTSD ,VA benefits..


Good question how do Vets feel about war...

[unhappycamper]

15. agreed

Chu Lai, class of 67-68
Cu Chi, class of 69-70

[dbeach]

16. Welcome Home Brother!

VN vets NEVER received a Welcome..What a waste of lives and money to allow these chikenhawks to run this beatuiful land that is not theirs.

The NG deserter running around like he is a war hero..

The protected will never know what the soldier has suffered!


Cu Chi was the VC capital of South Vietnam...I was safer in the jungle.

[unhappycamper]

18. tis true - they opened the tunnels for tourists

I just could not bring myself to go over there again.

Thanks Brother.

[dbeach]

24. I returned to VN in "88 and did a huge soul search..

came back and forgave all...commies,draft dodgers,govt,citizens..still hurts me but my life is changed

I wish more VN Vets would wake up and get active..
These power elites that are propelling us into the 1984 police state can be stopped and in fact fear the people...

SO KEEP RESISTING!!

[unhappycamper]

33. i have (grudgingly) forgiven everyone except lyndon johnon for

continuing the lie and hanoi jane for her actions.

[Steel City Slim]

36. Have You Read....

....Robert McNamara's book "In Retrospect"? He might as well named it "Sorry About That" or "Oops". I hope he dies a slow, horrible, painful death.

[unhappycamper]

39. I got the book about three or four months after it came out.

Early in the book he said something like "we didn't have a plan B, so we went to war anyway" or something like that. I put the book down and have not read another word from it since.

What a miserable c**ksucker.

[Steel City Slim]

48. It Pissed Me Off

He keeps saying over and over that he should have encouraged more discussion on a point, or that he should have tried to get more information about something. Over and over. I mean wtf! Once, yeah sure. Even twice, because everybody screws up. But the number of times he says that shit? I got pissed when I saw the title and it got worse as I read the book.

[dbeach]

44. Steel City Slim...Welcome Home!

Brother ..what a long strange trip its been...
I can't make out your patch but I was 101 st airborne {not jump qualified} ashau valley 69..

nice call sign..S.C.S.

[Steel City Slim]

49. Thank You Brother

And welcome back to you too.

The patch is Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club.

I was USS Forrestal 1967.

[dbeach]

53. The fire...how many injuries??

Was McCain aboard??

Keep educating the non-Vets who like most of our message.

VN Vets have unique insights bout the Masters of war..

."Don't follow leaders.watch your parkin meteers"

[unhappycamper]

59. please forgive me - i get so pissed when thinking about lbj or hj

i forget my manners.

1. Welcome home, Brother.

2. Welcome to DU :hi:

[dbeach]

60. Yea Bosox..

I am former MA resident who moved way down south to RI so I can surf til the Apocalypse...
<2 miles from ocean and the surf roars from July to Aug}[br />
Give no ground to fascist agenda..

Pope John Paul II
R.I.P. What a powerful example of a man of God and a man of Peace..

Pray he says a few for me.

[dbeach]

43. Then you will love this..Jane sorta apologizes again..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7349099/
NEW YORK - Jane Fonda says her 1972 visit to a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun site, an incident that brought her the nickname “Hanoi Jane,” was a “betrayal” of American forces and of the “country that gave me privilege.”


I may post this again..in general discussion

DU shoud have a vets area..where anyone can post but about Vets issues..which are often relevant for all

[Steel City Slim]

51. A Vets Group

I agree. A vets group would be good.

[nytemare]

55. There is one, go under "Politics and Issues" forum

Scroll and there is a group for vet and military issues.

:)

[Steel City Slim]

57. Thanks For The Tip

[TN al]

2. I understand why we went to Afghanistan...

...and was in favor of that action. I was totally against Iraq from the beginning. US Army '87-'97

[nytemare]

4. I have heard many say "we should just nuke 'em" etc.

These are the people who fail to realize that we are not the only people with nuclear weapons, and if we were to drop one on a country that perhaps doesn't have the weapons, there are plenty that would retaliate against us for that action.

[TN al]

34. I didn't say nuke 'em...

...but perhaps you didn't imply that, it is hard to tell with just the written word. There is a difference between nuke 'em and attacking them.

[cynatnite]

7. I was disappointed with the half-assed effort in Afghanistan

Kabul is ran by the US and the rest of the country is still owned by the war lords and a lot of those rule with an iron fist and talibon type dogma. It pissed me off that the US negotiated with those assholes and gave them their guns back.

It seems to me that the US is going through the motions and pretending they brought democracy to Afghanistan.

I never supported this war. From the beginning I didn't believe there was WMD. Hans Blix had no reason to lie and seemed very credible to me. I wanted bush to wait, but I knew he wouldn't. I knew months before Powell's speech to the UN that the US would find a way to invade. I loathed GW even when he was running for pres. I thought he did okay for about five minutes after 9/11.

GW causes cluster fucks where ever he goes.

[paineinthearse]

5. War is a matter of necessity

and necessity is in the eyes and minds of those in power.

It is up to the populace to bestow that power upon those who represent the country's true values, not thugs who seek corporate empire.

[Steel City Slim]

37. Well Stated

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. War is barbarism and murder.

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious." ~General Smedley Butler

The de facto role of the US armed forces will be to keep the world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault. ~Major Ralph Peters, US Military

War always has those who will justify the slaughter. Hitler was "saving" the world from "International Jewry and Bolshivism". We "saved the world from Naziism". Too bad about Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. In Vietnam we were to "save Vietnam from the Communists" - 3 million dead SE Asians and 58,000 American corpses was the result of that noble effort. Saddam invaded Kuwait to protect Iraq's oil. We invaded Iraq to protect "our" oil. Now we're killing Iraqis to "spread democracy".

Inevitably it's the sad sack GI's and the civilians who pay to fill the pockets of the powerful.

[PsN2Wind]

9. I think it's great!!!!!!!!!

and I believe we should reinstate the draft so every family can have someone taking part in the festivities, <sarcasm>

[nytemare]

19. One of Kennedy's best lines was "tempered by war"

I think that leaders who are less worldly and don't understand the consequences of war due to, say, being spoon fed, are most dangerous.

Bush's dusting his shoulders of the Abu Ghraib scandal pissed me off more than anything. I am sure these folks from WV came up with all the crap that just happened to be in the memo to Gonzales all on thier own. Abu Ghraib came from far above, and is, I think, the hugest fuck up of this administration.

[Steel City Slim]

38. The Only People Who Think War Is Wonderful....

....are those who have never been in one.

[BrotherBuzz]

10. To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war - Winston Churchill

But then, I was just a dumb draftee that added "no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services over any sustained period of time.", so what do I know?

[nytemare]

20. You know much more about life than * can ever pretend to know

[Redstone]

11. This is what war is.

I wrote this as an op-ed in 2003, but of course there were no newspapers that cared to run it.

Redstone
-----------------------------
As George W. Bush prepares to let slip the dog of war, I wonder if he, and indeed most of the American people who profess support for an invasion of Iraq, truly understand what war is.

Of course, among any country’s population, there can only be a few who genuinely understand the nature of war. However, even those without direct experience can gain some understanding with only a small amount of reading and study (though only if they care to, and few Americans do).

This understanding is almost universally lacking among Americans today, primarily because of the way the 1991 Gulf War was presented. We were shown a war that resembled nothing more than it resembled a video game. No blood, no mud, no bodies, just an unending stream of video images of impersonal "smart" weapons homing in on seemingly empty structures, along with the admittedly impressive shots of rocket batteries sending their payloads arcing magnificently toward the horizon.

Mr. President, my fellow Americans: That is not what war really is, as much as the U.S. Government would like for you to believe so.

War is not glory, nor is it an adventure, nor is it something to be entered into lightly.

This is what war is:

War is watching an eighteen-year-old boy calling for his mamma as he tries to stuff his guts back into his belly, just before he bleeds out and dies.

War is hearing a young mother wailing over the body of her dead baby girl as she shrieks at you, asking you why your people did this.

War is stumbling over a leg lying alone on the field, the laces of the boot on its foot still neatly tied.

War is a smell that you cannot ever adequately describe, nor ever forget.

War is the copper taste of old pennies in your mouth as the bullet fragments rip through your muscles and smack into the bones underneath like the whack of a ball-peen hammer, and you realize instantly that this is a bad one; the one you're not going to be able to walk away from.

War is body bags, lined up in neat rows by the cargo planes, every one of them connected to a grieving family at the end of the flight.

War is a nightmare shared by the families of those who die, and those who live out their lives so badly damaged that they sometimes wish they had been lucky enough to die.

War is death.

War is pain.

War is final, and, once started, the damage it causes cannot be undone.

War is not a game.

Mr. President, my fellow Americans: do you understand now?

[dbeach]

17. WELL PUT!

Chikenhawks should be required to read you anthem.. make that everyone should be required to read it.

[Steel City Slim]

40. The Smell

The smell is what stays with me more than anything else. I will never forget the smell.

[dbeach]

46. smell of death..and suffering

war is a racket
LBJ and ladyboid made lots of cash in helicpotrs and sealand trasnportation which carried much supplies in-country..

[Ironpost]

41. War is Wrong

[LadyRaivan]

12. I was on active duty...

...during Desert Storm, but didn't deploy. I agree with your take on war, both past and present.

War IS a racket, but there are too many out there who love war for war's sake...they just keep looking for someone's ass to kick. Seems that most of the people I know who are like that, though, are far too old to worry about it being their own blood that is shed. However, they seem more than willing to shed the blood of their own children, as well as mine.

[nytemare]

22. Yes, this culture of "good and evil"

Seems * will do anything to make his side seem good, on the surface, at least. Has he been to one funeral yet?

[Medical Speaking]

13. WAR

Should be avoided if at all possable. I ways all for going to war in Afghanistan, but when we went into Irag that was just a big mistake just like Viet-Nam. USMC 1965-1967

[ArkDem]

14. War is unhealthy for children and other living things.

[jbane]

21. Sometimes we have to use our military.

WWII definitely
Korea and Vietnam were Cold War conflicts, it's a matter of opinion as to their necessity in achieving the final outcome, the fall on Communism
Desert Storm...had to do it. Saddam could not control that much oil.
Kosovo....Should have been Europe's problem but they don't seem to have the balls.
Afghanistan...yes, should have been more focused.
Iraq...what will we all say if some kind of democracy takes hold there. Undecided.

[nytemare]

23. On Iraq, something struck me

We went into Afghanistan because of a fundamentalist government that sponsored and encouraged terrorism, and we "replaced" that government.

We went into Iraq, which was a secular government, to bring "democracy" to them, not caring how much religion had to do with government. The Shia majority won the election. So, now, will we have a fundamentalist government that will sponsor and encourages terrorism, like we tried to get rid of in Afghanistan?

I suppose we will find out.

[LynnTheDem]

30. POLAND is "some kind of democracy". So is HITLER'S war of aggression

invasion & occupation of POLAND now justified???

THAT'S what I'd say "if some kind of democracy takes hold" in Iraq. We didn't launch an ILLEGAL WAR OF AGGRESSION and INVADE AND OCCUPY Iraq to "spread democracy".

bush didn't manage to get a majority US approval to INVADE Iraq with all his "WMD" bullshit; there is no frigging way on this planet he would have done so with any "spreading democracy at gunpoint" rhetoric.

And ANYONE who could ever possibly think 100,000+ civilian deaths and 1700+ soldiers' deaths from the illegal INVASION and OCCUPATION of a sovereign nation that hadn't been doing anything to anyone could EVER be "justified" is, in my opinion (and the opinion of much of the world) totally lacking in any morality whatsoever.

[greblc]

25. "War is a Racket"

by Smedly Buttler - USMC

Google it.

[onager]

26. Another Marine heard from...

"I believe that if we had, and would, keep our dirty, bloody, dollar-crooked fingers out of the business of these nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. One that they design and want, one that they fight and
work for.

And if, unfortunately, their revolution must be of the violent type because the "haves" refused to share with the "have nots" by any
peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don’t want and above all don’t
want crammed down their throats by Americans."

Gen. David Shoup, USMC. Medal Of Honor winner, Okinawa, 1943. Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1959-63. The quote is from 1966.

Known as JFK's favorite general, Shoup nonetheless resigned his commission in 1963. By then he was already saying things like "all of Vietnam is not worth the life of one single American."

[DawgHouse]

27. Thanks for the tip! n/t

[tabasco]

28. There must be a just cause for war and war is a last resort.

That is my belief and it is supposed to be US doctrine.

I agree Afghanistan was justified. One of my former units was the first major unit to deploy. The execution was as bad as it could possibly be because the oil barons had their eyes on Iraq. The use of mercenaries instead of US troops was disastrous. Bush let the guys that attacked us get away. That would be Osama Bin Laden & Co. You might have heard the name but not recently in the corporate media.

They never fooled this vet into the Iraq war. No just cause, no last resort. They rushed into a war without justification. This should show everyone how much the neocons "support the troops." UN inspectors were crawling across Iraq. But they had the oil.

Think about it. The actions in Iraq make NO SENSE until you examine it as an oil grab. Then the pieces start falling into place. Not to mention the enormous no-bid contracts for rebuilding infrastructure which WE DESTROYED.

Unfuckingbelievable. Thanks for your service, Bro !

[LynnTheDem]

29. Why do you believe Afghanistan was "justified"??? (to all on this thread

who posted they supported attacking Afghanistan)

The vast majority of the entire world sure didn't (still doesn't) agree.

World opinion opposes the attack on Afghanistan
http://www.urban75.com/Action/news144.html

The Taleban wanted proof of OBL's guilt and then they'd hand him over. bush said no. bush said the Taleban was "just saying that" and wouldn't actually do it.

Well gee...wasn't it WORTH A FRIGGING TRY before launching a bloody WAR that's killed 161 American troops (so far) and countless innocent human beings that's still raging on 4 years later??? We always coulda bombed the crap out of them later if they'd refused.

Had OBL been in Canada, Canada would have demanded proof of his guilt before handing him over to America. As would the UK. And Germany. And most countries, including the USA before bush, demand such proof of guilt before handing accused people over to a 3rd nation, especially to nations that have the death penalty, such as America, the only "1st world" nation that still has the death penalty.

In fact, even with all the proof in the world, bush refuses to hand over anyone to the ICC. Yet other nations should hand over to America anyone bush demands they hand over, no proof required???

WHERE IS THE PROOF. How come, 4 years later, we've still not seen a shred of PROOF.

And speaking of the Taleban and a government that "supports terrorists" being "gone" now...how about that war criminal terrorist murderer General Abdul Rashid Dostum. Hired as military chief by Karzai himself. The US thought that was a great idea; why waste resources tracking them down when you can just HIRE THEM into the government!

U.S. Says Afghanistan 'Wise' to Co-Opt Strongman
A senior U.S. official on Tuesday praised Afghan President Hamid Karzai's decision to appoint a regional strongman to a key post, saying it could reduce the need for force against such warlords.

New York-based Human Rights Watch says Dostum has been implicated in countless human rights abuses in the last quarter of a century.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/03/08/us_says_afghanistan_wise_to_co_opt_strongman/

How about the "reconciliation" with the Taleban.

Reconciliation Effort with Taliban Picks Up Pace in Afghanistan
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1535&u=/afp/20050117/wl_sthasia_afp/afghanistantaliban_050117090232&printer=1

The Taliban's Rocky Road Back to Afghan Reconciliation
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/20/news/afghan.html

US Troop Reduction in Afghanistan Tied to Taleban Accepting Amnesty Offer
http://quickstart.clari.net/voa/art/eg/2004-12-05-voa28.html

Afghanistan welcomes some Taliban back
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/2005/03/20/news/11183951.htm

Result? Afghanistan is worse off now than before the United States "liberated" its people:

Afghan Women No Better Off
http://www.rawa.org/election-w.htm

Afghanistan is Not Better Off
http://www.newu.uci.edu/article.php?id=3502

Human Rights Watch World Report 2004: Losing the Peace in Afghanistan
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k4/5.htm

'One Huge US Jail'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,1440836,00.html

Afghan Crime Wave Breeds Nostalgia for Taliban
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A45302-2005Mar17?language=printer

Warlords blamed for widespread rape in Afghanistan
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SP10529.htm

Afghanistan Produces Record-Breaking Opium Poppy Crop
http://usinfo.state.gov/sa/Archive/2005/Mar/04-712000.html

And what attacking Afghanistan was REALLY about:

2 Main US Bases in Afghanistan Get Major Upgrade
http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-03-28-voa28.cfm

US Considering Permanent Bases in Afghanistan, General Says
http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-03-16-voa15.cfm

"Justified"...women and kids who are as bad or even worse off than before, crime and poppy/heroin has exploded, the Taleban are back, as are drug lords, war lords, and war criminals...and every day people are being killed. Oh, and OBL, who isn't in Afghanistan, and who was SUPPORTED AND STILL IS BY bush's good ally PAKISTAN, is still free, while we've lost freedoms here in America.

Nope. I wouldn't call it in the least bit "justified".

[nguoihue]

31. agree with LynnTheDem

I don't believe the war in Afghanistan was justified either. Lots of innocent people died unneccessarily. Many others are locked up today and held indefinitely and tortured without being formally charged with any crime. The same thing happened in Viet Nam, headed up by our gang of spooks who never have had to pay for any of their crimes against humanity.

No way is the current war in Iraq justified. The lies and bullshit from the neocons and their puppet bush just don't cut it. I'm not convinced that the "first war" in Iraq was not preventable. The Viet Nam war was a TOTAL WASTE! Korean war ... maybe. The upcoming bombing / invasion of Iran? Time will tell how greedy and power-crazed these evil bastards are.

Smedley Butler was right. War is a racket.

[LynnTheDem]

32. Speaking of the first war in Iraq...

Did you know the resolution to go to war against Iraq in 1991 only passed by FIVE (5) votes?

And that SEVEN senators, immediately before the vote, spoke about the "incubator babies" that, as we all should know by now, was pure 100% Bush PR firm bullshit?

And that American citizens polled at only 55% approval for the Gulf War?

NOT a very popular war, Desert Storm. Not then. Now, of course, revisionist history has stepped in, care of the rightwingnuttery.

And of course the Gulf War never had to happen in the first place; rather than giving Hussein the green light, America could have simply said "don't do it".

[nytemare]

56. Osama said he attacked us

I don't think we waged the war successfully, being that Bin Laden is still out there. We haven't seemed to be too concerned about a change in government there, at least supporting that change, so it would not go back to the way it was before.

The way Bush went about Afghanistan made it just a "warm-up" for the attack on Iraq.

Tapes of Bin Laden show him accepting responsibility, and I believe he was responsible. I don't think we should have gone to war and just let him go.

I think the reasons for going to war, fighting Al Queda and the Taliban, were justified. I do not think the way we went about it was correct, though.

[Steel City Slim]

35. Some Wars Need To Be Fought

I favored Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden attacked us, we needed to get him, he was hiding in and protected by Afghanistan. I was opposed to Iraq from the beginning. We should have focused our attention and resources on bin Laden. Of course Afghanistan doesn't have any oil....

I general, I oppose war. In general wars are nothing more than a tool to advance political and economic positions. Having said that, some wars need to be fought. Where would we be if we hadn't fought the Revolutionary War? What would of happened if we hadn't fought WWII?

[Ironpost]

42. Killing to kill is wrong. VN '69-'70

Lubricating the gears of the money machine with Blood is dead wrong.

[dbeach]

47. Welcome Home Brother!

They make their cash while we pay and pay and pay..
101 st '69 ashau valley..

and the Vietnamese are dying of Agent Orange ..land mines ...

[Ron Green]

45. War is easy; diplomacy is hard.

And chickenhawks take the easy way, by sending working people to do their dirty business rather than leading in diplomacy and self-examination. They play to the grandstands, appealing to the worst kind of fearful nationalism, when they ought to be reinforcing what is best about America: tolerance, hard work and progress.

US Army 1966-69.

[B Calm]

50. If Eisenhower had never sent troops into Vietnam, there probably

would never been a Vietnam War with US troops involved. The only thing war is good for is corporate interests..

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

52. I agree with you on all except WWI

WWII was absolutely necessary but WWI was an absolute, utter fiasco that we should have never entered, and that we ultimately did only because US arms merchants didn't want to lose their investment. To call Germany and the Central Powers in WWI "oppressors" or "deprivers of freedom" is the height of stupidity and hypocrisy, since the British at the time were responsible for more deadly massacres and oppressive policies in their downtrodden colonies (India, Ireland, Africa, Australia/NZ where the native people suffered near Rwanda-like genocide at British hands) than all the Central Powers combined, multiplied by 10. It's a further irony that even as the British were claiming to fight for "freedom" in Europe against those nasty Central Powers, they themselves brutally and bloodily suppressed an Irish freedom rebellion in 1916-- the Easter Rebellion. It was the Irish in large part who quelled League of Nations provisions in the WWI aftermath, and with good reason.

Wilson stayed out of WWI for years and he was sensible to do so, but ultimately he relented when US arms manufacturers-- who had sold the equivalent of billions of dollars in arms to Britain-- feared their investment would be lost if Paris fell. (It was pretty much lost anyway-- Britain was all but bankrupt, and became officially so a couple decades later.) All the stuff about the Zimmermann Telegram, Lusitania and all that had little to do with it, and German submarine warfare was merely a pretext-- the British were just as aggressive in restricting free US trade. In doing so, Wilson effectively prevented the only possible humane outcome of WWI-- a negotiated peace among the warring powers in the bloodbath, with little gained for any side, with the result that all would have realized the stupidity of their actions and there would have been no impositions from any side upon the others. Instead, Wilson's intervention stupidly allowed the Versailles Treaty with all its vindictiveness to issue forth, and it also fostered fascism in Germany and Italy, and Bolshevism to seize control in Russia. (Not to mention helping to spread Spanish influenza with the troop transports, which slaughtered 20-30 million in India alone.) US intervention in WWI, in fact, was one of the greatest errors of the 20th century, and helped to pave the way for the horrors of the 1930s and 1940s. And that blood is in part on the hands of Wilson and all the jingoistic idiots who pushed him to intervene. Read e.g. Thomas Fleming's "Illusion of Victory"-- well-researched and outstanding in its thesis.

[dbeach]

54. WW II cost 55 million lives..FDR knew of pearl harbor..

the big shots still own the tools of war

Great song by Bob Dylam "Masters of war"

Even WW II Vts are waking up to the arms industry..and I have a few buddies that think WW II was not quite finished..

WE are just moving from war to war...intergenerationally..

[Zhade]

58. KICK

kick