Why shouldn't we give Andrea Dworkin the same respect we gave the Pope?

[Modem Butterfly]

I'm not a fan of Andrea Dworkin, nor was I a fan of Pope John Paul II. But it seems to me that both individuals were famous, controversial, somewhat anti-sex, and very polarzing. So why shouldn't we exhibit the same basic respect for Andre Dworkin that we did for Pope John Paul II? By that I mean shouldn't we restrain ourselves from posting jokes about her death and from making insensitive comments about her supporters? Good heavens, Andre Dworkin's corpse is still warm. Shouldn't we wait to dance on her grave until she is actually in it?

[RandomKoolzip]

1. Nothing is sacred. n/t

[Goldmund]

2. Amen.

[Modem Butterfly]

5. Certainly, but it seems we have a double standard here

DUers were required to at least be respectful of the feelings of followers of JPII. Why should he rate above Andrea Dworkin?

[RandomKoolzip]

7. Why should anybody "rate" above anyone else?

Strip away radical feminism's myopic fixation on male power and what you have is a wish for the banishment for all heirarchical structures, which I think is the noblest goal of all.

[Modem Butterfly]

8. My point exactly.

[redqueen]

47. Halle-frickin'-lujah.

:thumbsup:

[Minstrel Boy]

53. Everything is sacred.

"For everything that lives is holy." William Blake said that.

[WillowTree]

3. I didn't notice...

....a whole lot of restraint being exercised over the Pope's death.

[Modem Butterfly]

6. I sure did

Anything that could be considered the least bit irreverant was deleted, mostly to avoid nasty flame wars and cries of bashing, IMHO.

[FrankBooth]

44. I didn't notice a whole lot of restraint in Dworkin's philosophy

either. Separate planets for the sexes is basically what she wanted.

I hadn't even heard she died.

[beam me up scottie]

4. I agree.

After all, I'm sure somebody somewhere worshiped and admired her.

Nope, no double standards around here, no siree.

:evilgrin:

[bullimiami]

9. who gave respect to the pope?

remember on his watch coverup, payoff and reassignment was the response to sexual deviancy and molestation.

[WoodrowFan]

10. does this apply to ALL public figures?

at what point are we allowed to dissent? (this isn't a complaint, it's just a question).

[Modem Butterfly]

11. Maybe we should be allowed to dissent from the get-go

Or maybe it should be up to each individual DUer to draw that line for him or herself rather than enforce sensitivity and tasteful dialogue on each other. After all, the mods were trying to prevent a holy flame war, not avoid bad PR.

[kiki]

32. I'm not sure how true that is...

...I think one of the mods even posted something to the effect that those with negative views of the Pope should keep quiet in part because it would make DU look bad to slag off a recently deceased Pontiff.

Ironic, really, considering that the people from which DU seeks to avoid criticism largely see Catholicism as the work of Satan, and that the Pope once referred to their fearless leader as a possible antichrist...

[theboss]

12. Who is Andrea Dworkin?

I seriously have never heard that name before.

[Modem Butterfly]

13. Really?

[theboss]

16. Seriously...and I know everybody

There are very few public figures that I don't have at least a passing knowledge of since I read so damn much. But I'm drawing a complete blank on this one.

I'm probably familiar with something of hers if she's a writer. Otherwise, I got nothing.

[Modem Butterfly]

21. Andrea Dworkin had a huge impact on the debate over pornography

Both in this country and in Canada. She was quite well-published and quite controversial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin

[BiggJawn]

33. Oh. Her.

The Anti-Male.

[entanglement]

48. Uber-radical feminist

Radical probably isn't a strong enough word to describe her brand of feminism. You might call her a 'faith-based' feminist whose dogmas were as strong as those of any fundamentalist religious group's. She was surely at one extreme in the continuum of feminist theorists.

[Cuban_Liberal]

14. Of course we should.

Common decency is just good manners, after all.

[Connie_Corleone]

15. She must not be that famous...

I never heard of her until I read she was dead. No one I know has ever heard of her.

Maybe it's a baby boomer thing? :shrug:

[Modem Butterfly]

18. Not really, no

Andrea Dworkin was quite a well-published, famous and infamous feminist who had a huge impact on the pornography debate in this country and Canada.

[theboss]

20. Okay...that rings a bell

Did she align herself with the fundamentalists?

[Modem Butterfly]

24. On pornography, yes

They often cited her work, until they realized she was a lesbian. Being gay is like kryptonite to these folks.

[UdoKier]

19. I'm a Gen X'er and I've heard of her...

And she herself was a baby boomer.

She gained minor notoriety in the 1980s for her anti-sex screeds. But you probably wouldn't have heard much about it if you lived far from the coasts.

[Modem Butterfly]

22. I read her in college, early 1990s

And IIRC, Amercian Booksellers v. Hudnut was sort of a big deal.

I think it's a disservice to write off Dworkin's writing as anti-sex screeds. Her take on sexual politics in general, and pornography in specific, did talk about inter-gender relations from an adversarial point of view. But of course, writers and philosophers have been doing that since the dawn of the written word.

[Solly Mack]

23. Do you know who Flo Kennedy was?

Bella Abzug?
Alice Paul?
Gloria Steinem?
Barbara Jordan?
Shirley Chisholm?
Sojourner Truth?
Susan B. Anthony ?
Germaine Greer ?
Mary Wollstonecraft?

.....just a few....just curious...

[Connie_Corleone]

26. I've heard of 6 of them.

That's because I've heard their names all the time or heard about some of them in high school.

No, I did not know about Shirley Chisholm until she died either.

Names like Mary Wollstonecraft and Bella Abzug weren't topics of conversation in my neighborhood growing up, okay??

Yeesh!

[Modem Butterfly]

28. They should have been covered in school

Mary Wollstonecraft especially. She was absolutely instrumental in early feminism.

Flo Kennedy was very funny. Try reading some of her stuff sometime, I think you'll find it thought-provoking AND entertaining.

[theboss]

27. In order....

Bella Abzug? no
Alice Paul? no
Gloria Steinem? yes
Barbara Jordan? yes, yes (in honor of her speaking style)
Shirley Chisholm? yes
Sojourner Truth? yes
Susan B. Anthony ? yes (She made her own dollars, right?)
Germaine Greer ? yes
Mary Wollstonecraft? yes

I did go to college. In fact, I wrote my senior thesis on Sylvia Plath, Anne Sexton, Adrienne Rich and Marilyn Hacker.

[Solly Mack]

30. I'm a Dorothy Parker kind of woman myself

:)

[theboss]

34. Now that's a woman...

You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think.

[Solly Mack]

37. She had a biting wit!

[theboss]

38. That's why my not knowing this person seems odd to me

I was an English major and took a ton of sociological and political classes at my very elite, very liberal college. I obviously even did some writing on feminism. So, I feel like I should know major figures in the movement. I now have some vague memories of her, but I remember thinking that she was pretty fringe.

I definitely know of the unholy bond between feminists and fundamentalists against pornography and dismiss anyone who would make such an alliance as a fool.

[Solly Mack]

40. I accept Dworkin as part of the history of the women's struggle

Maybe because she was seen as "fringe" by many...to include others within the women's movement...a push was made to keep her outside the "mainstream" of the women's movement ( regards to thinking and literature)?...turning her into an obscure reference that only us "die-hard feminists" would know about. :)

Also, getting into bed, politically, with right wing fundies is enough to discredit anyone...

talk about sleeping with the enemy... :)

[Dorian Gray]

42. theboss...

I had the same exact answers that you had. I don't know either Bella Abzug or Alice Paul either. As for Dworkin, I agree that now is not the time to discuss what I don't like about her. I hope her passing was painless, and I hope she finds peace now.

[GreenArrow]

31. I've heard of all of them

And Andrea Dworkin is not in their league. Not even close.

[Solly Mack]

35. Like Dworkin or not, she's part of the history for the struggle

to obtain equality for women...a struggle that continues today. Her name will be found among that history and there's no erasing it. Not if truth is to be valued.

I fully embrace the "women's movement"....flaws and all. Doesn't mean I agree with everything ever said in the course of the struggle....just means I accept it's history without the revisions and commentary. Dworkin is a part of the history that icludes those other names.

Just as Catherine MacKinnon and Molly Yard will be....

Some greater than others in their words and deeds....but ALL a part of MY history as a woman.

[GreenArrow]

36. that's fair enough, and true enough

but I believe she'll be there as little more than a footnote.

[UdoKier]

17. A lot of people were pretty hard on the pope too.

Both of them had their good points and band points. I see nothing wrong with talking about them.

Rejoicing in their death is a bit beyond the pale though. They were not murderous despots or anything like that.

[saltpoint]

25. I considered her intelligent and capable of inspiration --

-- but also a MAJOR retro mind on subjects like pornography.

She received due praise and criticism during her life and her death changes nothing in that regard. She forged her own legacy and she'll have to take the heat.

[lonestarnot]

29. Don't you know silly, "It's a man's world!" n/t

[kwassa]

39. Little to compare the two

There are vast differences between these two people. The Pope is the titular head of one of the world's largest religions. Dworkin is not even head of the American feminist movement, which is not religious but political. He has a vast following, she has a tiny following, if any at all.

(I'm supposed to respect someone for being anti-sex and polarizing? I hardly think that JPII was polarizing, even as Popes go.)

That said, of course we should not make the jokes, but DU can be a very juvenile place.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Did you do that on purpose? nt

[Nikia]

43. Some people on DU seem to see her as the enemy

They have reduced her message to: sex is bad and porn is bad. Those are of course obviously the most important rights for them. They don't understand that her arguements and reasoning behind them. She made arguements that others had not dared to make. These arguements contributed to feminist thinking and enabled us to be able to see a more balanced view. Before the feminist movement, the predominant view, of course, was strongly sexist in favor of men and still is to some extent.
I'll agree that Pepe John Paul II and she are different. The Pope was meant to be a somewhat mainstream Catholic leader. Ms. Dworkin was not mainstream nor tried to be. Her point was to have these issues heard. The Pope knew that his issues would be heard as they were not major deviations from mainstream Catholic thought.

[progressoid]

45. What about Zell Miller?

Sure, he's not dead yet, but its just a matter of time.

Will we all look back on this 'democrat' in quiet reflection? Will we curb our tongues to avoid hurting the feelings of Georgians or our more conservative Democrats?

[beam me up scottie]

56. oooooooooh, that's good!

Amazing how some didn't even get within a country mile of the point.
:evilgrin:

[petronius]

46. My personal rule,

whether it's Dworkin or the pope or Reagan or Zell or the guy down the street, is to speak well or not at all until the body is in the ground. After that, honest discussion of the person's successes and failings is appropriate... Even then, gleeful grave dancing or gratuitous slamming seems wrong to me.

Regardless, everyone has to make their own choices in this, and I don't think we should enforce any rules of what and when can be said...

[R. A. Fuqua]

49. an intelligent, well-spoken and classy woman.

she will surely be missed. And hopefully she will be a role model to many more women in the future.

I respect her MORE than I ever did the Pope, but can not speak for anyone but myself.

[JVS]

50. No. I don't want to see a crackdown on speach each time someone croaks

[bloom]

51. It is a rather interesting comparison...

I think more people accept the sexism of the pope (of all popes - of the institution of the pope) than accept Andrea Dworkin's views of sex/men.


As far as "exhibiting ...respect..."

Some people wanted us to all to pray for Jerry Falwell - fercryinoutloud - and he wasn't even dead (or a feminist :) ).

[theboss]

57. That's assuming they know who this woman was?

(God help me, but I've been dying to say this).

I've never heard of the broad.

[mondo joe]

52. I offer the same respect to them both, which amounts to little indeed.

I still don't understand why death should change my response to public figures.

[MADem]

54. Truthfully?

I just asked four people if they knew who Andrea Dworkin was...they were all waiting for the punch line, they thought it was the start of a joke. I then asked them if they saw the Pope's funeral, and they are still talking about it.

I don't know who she is, can't pretend I do!

[kaitykaity]

55. Didn't she advocate all heterosexual sex is rape?

With Mary Daly and that crowd?