Dean: Theoretical Iconolast

[StandWatie]

I keep catching this theme just barely under the surface of Dean/Clark friction.

You have Dean fans who can be broadly catagorized as democrats who are angry with the party establishment and see some sort of savior in Dean (very unlikely, but I find myself backing him for lack of other options).

You have Clark fans who seem to be desperately grabbing for some peace of the Clinton years to coddle and hang on to and seem absolutely insulted that anyone would even begin to imagine there was anything wrong with the party.

Does anyone else pick that theme up? Like it's not even a primary about the people, it's a referrendum on the state of the established party?

[meegbear]

1. No

should we be?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

2. boy, are you wrong

Clark is an outsider as much as Dean is. I don't know any Clark supporters who "seem absolutely insulted that anyone would even begin to imagine there was anything wrong with the party"?

I'm so tired of the Dean BS. He's a centrist, no different than ANY of the DLC candidates. Even Kerry is to the left of Dean. Dean's supporters are the whitest and richest group of Americans, and just can't imagine why the rest of us don't buy their garbage.

[StopTheMorans]

yeah thanks for the broad generalization oh omnipotent one

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

"Dean's supporters are the whitest and richest group of Americans"

I am white, but not among the "richest group of Americans" by a long shot. And that was an extremely broad generalization, even for someone who tends to make broad generalizations about Dean.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. read the polls

WSJ, NYT, WP, all of the press have reported the polls that Dean's supporters are richer than most Americans, whiter than most Americans, more socially liberal than most Americans, and LESS economically progressive than most Americans.

Their attitude of entitlement has been on display on DU for almost a year now, it's damned hard to ignore it.

[StopTheMorans]

14. yeah, and don't extrapolate the results of those

polls beyond reality. "Richer than most". How rich are most? (not rich enough to make the "Richer than most" generalizations you make where it seems like Dean supporters get together at meetups and have fun by dropping thousand dollar bills off the balcony and watching the help fight for them). "Whiter than most". Ok, so you're a Clarkie. How do they fit into this spectrum? And, as a general rule, aren't primary voters usually "whiter than most"? You can continue to spin things any way you want, but if you do, you're no better than any of the spin doctors you denounce.

[StandWatie]

3. I'm not even saying it's true

I'm just saying that's perception.

Clark as an "outsider" is equally ridiculous.

[Starpass]

6. Who Counts----are you ever dead right on

and in spades. Indeed, I'm not looking at Clark as the hanging on to Clinton. I'm looking at him as a 4 star best possibility going to BEAT BUSH---fuck this stupid "positions and posturing" that all of them, inclunding Dean, change with their underwear every day. It's simple "what sells to the American" drones that counts in the end. And we have to overcome the goddamn "soft on defense" label they have put on us for years. It's of huge proportions in this election. And I keep wanting to beat my head on the cement---Dean is everything the DLC would love and then some. He's no goddamn liberal and he outright says that every chance he gets. I think that indeed Dean will lose support to Clark. Clark is not only more attractive to voters and thus, chance to win. But, I think Clark is going to sound a hell of a lot more liberal than Dean. I don't want to wake up to find I have basically another Joe Lieberman running against Bush because that's why Howard keeps his papers sealed. And that doesn't bother his supporters at all...they think he has just sealed up favorite family receipes..........

[StandWatie]

8. if it's all issues..

Where do Clark and Dean differ?

[arendt]

10. Clark is pulling a Bobby Kennedy

In 1968, Senator Gene McCarthy beat LBJ in the NH primary.
As soon as McCarthy demonstrated that LBJ could be beaten.
Bobby Kennedy jumped in.

With his superior money and organization, he quickly muscled
McCarthy aside. Then he got killed. The Democratic Party never
recovered from the many bad feelings - McCarthy vs Kennedy,
and both of these groups versus LBJ's VP Humphrey.

Clark is doing the same thing. He has coyly flitted around, waiting
until Dean proved that Bush is vulnerable. I really hate to see Dean get
bashed. He was there first. He has moved quite far away from the
DLC as the Internet crowd has plugged him into the real grassroots.
I'm sick of hearing that Dean is DLC. Wrong. Holy Joe is DLC.
You want to bash the DLC, fine. Bash Joe, not Dean.

Clark is no outsider. He is wired directly to Bill Clinton's brain.
He is Bill's horse in this race. Not that that's so bad, but don't
tell me Clark is an outsider.

Yeah, he has a nice resume, but no one really knows what's
in his closet. I saw some RW BS on how Clark's conduct in
the Kosovo conflict was a war crime.

Great, that's all we need - picture the GOP propaganda; Clark
is just as big a war criminal as Bush, and he bombed white
folks, not Arabs.

So, I'm not joining anybody's cargo cult. Not Dean's, not Clark's.

Why doesn't everyone take a time out, and stop bashing each
other. We are supposedly on the same side in this.

arendt

[chimpymustgo]

12. But Edwards is much more LIKE Bobby Kennedy.

As I posted earlier. The youthful optimism, the sense of hope he brings.

[PurityOfEssence]

15. I'm sorry, you may not mention Edwards today

This is official Clark Day. Be quiet and accept that your candidate has no right to exist. Tomorrow will be Clark Day also, and Thursday will be his kick off speech. After that, we will have another Dean day, and a full Dean weekend, followed by Deantober and Deanember. We will pause breifly for Hallowdean and Clarksgiving, but will keep our eyes on Deanmas and New Dean's Day.

[StopTheMorans]

16. Hey, I'm a Dean supporter!

and that's funny:)!

[Larkspur]

4. I'm not sure if all Clark fans feel that way about the Dem leadership

but there is definitely an arrogance in the Dem leadership ranks and their supporters that We the People are sheep to be led to slaughter, instead of treated as partners in a democracy.

Dean has broken with that leadership model.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

9. no, Dean hasn't broken with that model, he is a perfect example of it

Has Dean released his records as governor? He supported the ultimate example of arrogant Dem leadership with his pimping for NAFTA.

Does ANYONE really believe that Dean supporters have any more say in his campaign as any FOCUS GROUP does? I refuse to believe that the Dean supporters are that stupid, and I'm insulted they think I am.

[HFishbine]

5. referrendum on the state of the established party?

Yes, I agree. I think there are many who want it to be so, and I think there are several candidates who represent options in various directions.

[salin]

11. In real time - regarding supporters

your summary falls flat. The Dean supporters that I know are not overly wealthy and there is a multiethnic/cultural mix.

The Clark suopporters that I know are also multiethnic/cultural (eg not all white) - and are very critical of the current dem leadership and recognize limitations of the old Clinton administration.

go figure.

[OKNancy]

13. As always Salin is so sensible

But one thing I want to say about my thinking is.....for all Clinton's faults, he was a winner. I know people who think winning is the most important thing are ridiculed here on DU, but for me, it is very important.

As long as the candidate is acceptible to me ( and with the exception of Lieberman, all are) then I will look for someone who can win.